Where Have You Gone David Pocock?

What happened to Poccok? Before the game all the talk was how he would boss Ritchie and yet again he has been ineffective against the AB's.

I know some will say he was injured and that he can't be effective in a rubbish pack, however I do believe he is starting to be shown up as the one trick pony that he is. He is fantastic if he can be the first or second man at the breakdown, however he does very little else and the AB's are targeting him to make him the tackler thereby removing any trace of influence he has on the game.

So Wallabies fans, are you somewhat relieved that Pocock is injured? I think Liam Gill has been the best 7 in Australia over the Super 15 and has more strings to his bow than Pocock has.

Pocock is a very good 7.McCaw has adapted his game so much he is STILL the best 7.Pocock picked up an injury early on,Rolland policed the Breakdown area pretty pedanticly it seems to be on orders of IRB in SH this year[trials?].BUT it was an obvious tactic to flood the area with tacklers and pin him at the bottom of the ruck.In the RWC semi and on Saturday it was the AB back row versus Pocock.This time the Lone Ranger did`nt win.Being impressive in Super Rugby does`nt always translate,also when you`re the captain too and things are going wrong?

If there ever was an example as to how valuable it is to have your loose forwards operate as a combination, then that was it.

Otagolad wrote:What happened to Poccok? Before the game all the talk was how he would boss Ritchie and yet again he has been ineffective against the AB's.

I know some will say he was injured and that he can't be effective in a rubbish pack, however I do believe he is starting to be shown up as the one trick pony that he is. He is fantastic if he can be the first or second man at the breakdown, however he does very little else and the AB's are targeting him to make him the tackler thereby removing any trace of influence he has on the game.

So Wallabies fans, are you somewhat relieved that Pocock is injured? I think Liam Gill has been the best 7 in Australia over the Super 15 and has more strings to his bow than Pocock has.

Are you really trolling a player after a knee injury? While we're here, would you like to take a walk down memory lane and relive the joy over Cooper's as well?

I agree regarding the breakdown, however my point is that my impression of Pocock is that he is a brilliant scavenger at the breakdown but does very little else, whereas McCaw, Alberts, Warburton, O'Brien, Haskell (after some coaching down under) etc. are good at the breakdown but also offer other skills such as carrying the ball, offloading, lineouts, support play on attack, high tackle counts etc.

Pocock for me is one-dimensional and from what I saw of Gill this year he offers more all over the paddock. T

he man that Australia really seemed to mis was Horwill and the backs could do with Cooper guiding them (as long as he doesn't fall apart).

boomeranga wrote:Are you really trolling a player after a knee injury? While we're here, would you like to take a walk down memory lane and relive the joy over Cooper's as well?

I'm not trolling at all. I genuinely believe Pocock was MIA even before his knee injury (and was in the semi-final as well) and that apart from the breakdown he offers very little and teams are starting to work him out. The question was whether Aussie fans felt some comfort/relieved that Gill might play as he appears to offer more all over the field, albeit that age/lack of experience might count against him.

Pocock should shift to playing blindside. He is too bulky to be playing 7. His carries and speed are lacking, and the modern fetcher role continues to change. He either needs to switch bulk for speed, or else switch to 6.

I dont think its a case of whether Pocock should move to 6 or not, I think its more of a case that he could have done with a hand from the bloke who was wearing 6.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
I dont think its a case of whether Pocock should move to 6 or not, I think its more of a case that he could have done with a hand from the bloke who was wearing 6.

I agree that Dennis played poorly but apart from a winning a couple of breakdowns I saw very little of Pocock elsewhere. Some of that is down to the AB's ensuring he was the tackler etc., however I just don't think he has the variety of play a modern loosie needs.

otago

Personally I have a bit of trouble as to why people compare McCaw and Pocock, they come onto the job with quite different toolboxes.

The kiwi's have proven twice now they have an effective plan for nullifying Pocock. The question is now can Deans and co find a way to get him back in the contest. Whether this involves him standing off a bit, changing his tackling style or just generally getting more help from his team mates I don't know but if it continues on you could argue that Deans isn't really 'playing what's in front of him' as he's known to spout. Maybe with Pocock's bulk he'd be better at trying to hold up the opp ball carrier and effect a maul.

I'd love to see both both Gill and Pocock on the field at the same time but I doubt that will ever happen. Besides, I'd say that Michael Hooper is next in the queue anyway.

Well things are not looking good in the tealeaves for this weekend though.

Pocock and Horwill out and the venue eden park, same venue for two big recent losses including the semi. Cooper also could be back and with little gameplay a visit back to where the trouble all started could knock his confidence.

Deans faces losing the bledisloe cup...his very publicly stated primary goal for the year...practically before it all starts.

That and off form beale all looks bleak for oz this weekend.

Is Woodcock likely to miss the Auckland test? Who do we have as cover?

It's a shame Palu is out. I prefer Higganbotham at 6 and the balance of the Wallaby backrow is better. There was talk of policing the breakdown before the match and it seemed Pocock was picked out more for infringing.

I think more of a problem is Deans has picked two largely different forward packs and neither seemed physical and with any forward thrust. Pocock stands out more when his forwards get some go-forward ball.

forwards can't perfrom in isolation. They need a colective effort from their pack, there is no way Pocock on his own can stop the All BLack forwards.

Just take a look at the last test of SA vs England, as soon as Alberts was out for the thrid test, the SA backrow didn't function. Having Spies at 8 who isn't that physical and Potgieter who isn't that physical made Marcell coetzee ineffective with ball in hand as all he did was tackle, tackle, tackle.

Pocock needs back up like any other flanker.

Take Read and Kaino/Messam or whoever out, put average backrowers with McCaw, the same thing will happen.

One guy can't beat a backrow of Messam, McCaw and Read. It isn't possible.

AH! The burden of captaincy! How it buried the careers of some decent players.

Taine Randell and Reuben Thorn to mention just two. Lewis Moody another. Borthwick a third. Matfield. Mils Muliaina. Now add Pocock to that list. Some are just not cut out to it and their game suffers.

I tell you when Australia lose the game this weekend! When Genia tap kicked and tried to score the try when they get a penalty under the All Black sticks. A better leader would have not been wrestling on the ground with Liam Messam like a school boy and up leading the team and making sure the 3 points was delivered! Hang you head in shame Pocock!

The mark of a great player is the ability to respond to the knockers and critics.

Pocock is a bloody good player, I for one won’t write him off right now. He may grow into the captaincy, I certainly think he’s better than Horwill as a captain.

Well, it might also be true that he pick up this knee injury early in the game and try to play on one leg like McCaw! But it wasn't working. I think Wallabies need all of Sharpe, Horwill and Pocock on the field to stand a chance, so next week could be some disaster for them.

Well Richie wasn't captain material in his first few years. He grew into the role. You have to cut him some slack AWOP. The others you mention weren't around for long, albeit some after illustrious careers like the last two you mention. Moody was always a battler and not a genuine seven but he was certainly a cut above Thorne, Blackadder and Randell (Geez they were lean years).

To me, it seemed like there was huge pressure on the Wallaby team but also on certain individuals. Beale was given the job to perform miracles in the backline and Pocock was supposed to steal everything. As the game went on and it became increasingly clear that wasn't going to happen, those two seemed to try to force the play too much. It wasn't through lack of trying. It was just because their team was operating too often from a stop start situation, the game lacked any continuity due to atrocious handling, wrong tactics (Barnes sitting so deep in the pocket you wondered if he was still in play or being attended to by medical staff) and the whistle happy Rolland who does not know how to play the advantage because blowing your whistle after letting play go seems less important than blowing it up straight away and killing off any chance to see more than two phases.

The primary role of BR players is to win the ball. Invariably a 7, due to him being on the openside and his pace, should be the first BR to the tackle or breakdown. Consequently a 7 doing a lot of tackling means he is doing his job very well, particularly if his team is on the back foot for most of the match.

The player coming off at the end of the game with the dirtiest shirt should be the 7.

Pocock is a damn good 7. Its just that the rest of the team ain't good enough to beat the NZers.

Too right EG4E. 7 gets there first, then 8 then 6. Buck Shelford was dropped because he wasn't getting to the rucks second. Pocock is the best breakdown exponent in the world but you have the opposing three coming at you all at once and you get smashed off the ball. This is where the Aussie 6 and 8 need to be more physical.

Henry wanted Umaga to stay on till 2007 but Umaga declined. Crap there was another 13 instead of Muliaina there. McCaw was getting groomed obviously captaining the Ireland game in 05 but it was just accelerated. He was learning pretty well and it was just one game in which his captaincy was heavily scrutinised as he couldn't lead the team to overcome a freakish amount of variables.

A dirty shirt? The thing should be full of sprig holes. Bring back rucking!

Bring back rucking!

+1 Bring back Buck? Nah mate. Bring Back Ruck.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
otago

Personally I have a bit of trouble as to why people compare McCaw and Pocock, they come onto the job with quite different toolboxes.

I think its purely because they are both 7's and McCaw is still the premier 7 in the world so obviously comparisons will be made regardless of styles etc.

The way McCaw is changing his game suggests a move to 6 a la the great Michael Jones. I think (and fervently hope) that this happens in a season or two as Read and Cane are class and it may be the only way McCaw makes 2015-if that is his goal.

If it isn't his goal and he bows out-here's a wildcard for you. The next World Cup winning captain could be Dan Carter. Despite his medal there's got to be unfinished business there and he was due to take over for Canada before he got hurt. To be crocked the three cups he's been involved with is just devastating and he knows NZ wouldn't have had their hearts in their mouths for the final had he been pulling the strings.

Kia,simple answer Wyatt Crockett arguably the best loosehead after Woodcock in World rugby.The Old Crusaders shuffle him and the brothers Grimm,Ben isn`t the answer on the loose head but a good utility prop.Next season all four will be the starting props.

By memory Wyat Crockett isn't the most legal scrummager.

Yeah, but the next world cup winning captain might also be a player that isn't from New Zealand..

Anyways, I can see Read becoming the next AB captain. Either him or Conrad Smith. McCaw moving to 6 might be a good option, he really is some ball carrier these days. No idea why he has suddenly become such a wrecking ball.

McCaw wants 2015,what does it matter the number on his back good chance Kaino back for 2015 anyway.Stick Adam Thomson at 6 and play left and right simple as that Boks use the numbers on shirts in reverse why not the AB`s.Sam Cane may be class but Matt Todd is an RM clone and an out and out fetcher is now a luxury at this level.

I have to say I think Cian Healy is certainly of one of the worlds best looseheads. I thought he did very well against the All Blacks in the summer and did very well against Australia too in the World Cup.

As for Pocock, I wouldn't really describe him as one dimensional.. he is probably the best pilferer around, but he is also a fantastic defender and inspiring captain who leads by example. He is also a decent support player. I think he should work on improving his support play though, just to add more strings to his bow.

As others have said, the rest of the back row must contribute or he is never going to make an impact on the game. Higginbotham was poor I thought, and Dennis was just totally anonymous.

Of course Rory-we know too well about that-sorry if I sounded like a cocky presumptious Kiwi. I was thinking it may be DC's goal.

Read is definitely in the frame to skip. I'd say Smith is too old now as he'd need time to bed in.

McCaw was close to MOTM on Sat-his running was awesome. Got past the gain line so often. It's started to become more and more a part of his game since 2010 and it'd be a huge boost if he moved to 6. We may not need Kaino if he comes back in that case.

I rate Healy too Stag. I also rate Dan Cole who is very destructive. I don't think the NZ props are at their best this year and could be in for some torrid times later. For me Woodcock's been solid rather than spectacular and Owen has gone off the boil. Crockett is very destructive but refs don't like him and I hope Cron's been working with him a lot to get him scrummaging a legally and b so that the refs interpret him as legal (sadly two different things at the moment).

red_stag wrote:I have to say I think Cian Healy is certainly of one of the worlds best looseheads. I thought he did very well against the All Blacks in the summer and did very well against Australia too in the World Cup.

Well if you go by stats alone, Healy was by far the best loosehead on the pitch this June, he had most tackles, and least missed tackles, he had most running meters, he also gave away the least penalties as a loose head.

And then he also scrums.

He was getting some great lineout ball too as well disney. It does make a lot of sense to see him there. His Star Wars clone, Matt Todd plays best at 6 or 7. It's all very well to have cover for Read who's been injured a lot at 8, but I guess we have Vito as cover for 8 and 7. Read can play at 6 if things need to be shuffled round.

Healy was my standout player for Ireland against NZ. Messam was told to take him out of the game in the 3rd test such was the threat he posed at the breakdown, probably more so than SOB. Mealamu and Hore also showed the front row can be effective pilferers as well.

Pocock needs to have his team mates help him out more. Dennis was so invisible on Saturday I'm not sure if that's his surname or his first name!

It will be interesting to see how the scrum goes under the new law. It seemed the AB front row was trying to hold the Aus front row up to stop them going to ground so a scrum could take place and the ABs were repeatedly pinged for failing to manage it. Another referee would have called all those Australia penalties the other way.

AWOP interesting comment Ian "Mighty Mouse"McLauchlan was a small but very strong Prop and did the same.Hold up the opposing front row so they could scrummage.Owen Franks was certainly back last saturday both a t scrum time and in defence making over 15 tackles.Crockett scrums legally just that Stu Dickenson took it exception to his style so he changed it.Ben Franks when he came on caused problems too.The AllBlacks front row is the least of there worrys.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yeah, but the next world cup winning captain might also be a player that isn't from New Zealand..

Anyways, I can see Read becoming the next AB captain. Either him or Conrad Smith. McCaw moving to 6 might be a good option, he really is some ball carrier these days. No idea why he has suddenly become such a wrecking ball.

Ironically it could be even if the New Zealand team dont!

Disney:
carrying on with your MOTM thought.
McCaw won three lineouts,
Mccaw was leading AB to breakdowns with 25, (followed by Messam 16 and Reid 13)

Higginbotham did well at lineout time for Australia, but didnt do a lot else.
Pocock was the most penalised player on the ground on saturday night, (but you have to have some sympathy for a bloke that gets penalised for entering a lineout early).

McCaw also was the most effective ball carrier by a fair bit.

Heres the stats I'm looking at :



http://www.nzherald.co.nz/best-of-sport-analysis/news/article.cfm?c_id=1502180&objectid=10828115

Laurie,

That is what I mean about Pocock - he is great getting to the breakdown, however what else does he do in a game. He never seems to feature that highly in the tackle count, he doesn't support breaks well, he doesn't offload, he rarely carries the ball (and when he does it isn't for many yards) and he doesn't win lineout ball. I'm not saying he should do all of these things (McCaw is a legend), however more than one string to his bow would at least go some way to justifying this whole "Best 7 in World rugby" stuff.

I know others here have said he isn't helped by his other backrowers and that is true at the breakdown, but that isn't my point - tackling, ball carries, supporting the runner, offloading, lineouts (if tall enough) are all traits of a great 7/Backrower and I just don't think Pocock measures up to the likes of O'Brien, Alberts, Burger, Warburton, McCaw et al. especially when his breadown ability is neutralised.

Interestingly, in the last year the AB's tactics have changed at the breakdown and they are now using their loosies to clear rucks and allow the hookers and props a crack at turnovers - Mealamu and Hore stole vital ball last Saturday.

otago
yes I was pretty much knew that that (strings to his bow) was what you were getting at. But I also think pocock shouldnt be hung out to dry for the pathetic support he got from his mates.

Australia still hasnt fully found a solution from what was a successful flanker role for them ten years ago when they had Waugh and Smith playing at times something that was basically lefts and rights.


If Pocock had of had of had a hunting mate on saturday, I doubt if we would be l even having this discussion. But it is excellant to consider all angles.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Heres the stats I'm looking at :



http://www.nzherald.co.nz/best-of-sport-analysis/news/article.cfm?c_id=1502180&objectid=10828115

http://www.espnscrum.com/the-rugby-championship/rugby/match/153845.html

Those are the stats I used.

Pot Hale wrote:Pocock should shift to playing blindside. He is too bulky to be playing 7. His carries and speed are lacking, and the modern fetcher role continues to change. He either needs to switch bulk for speed, or else switch to 6.

Quite agree,then they could get rid of Higginbottom who only wanted to fight King Richie instead of trying to play footie

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

http://www.espnscrum.com/the-rugby-championship/rugby/match/153845.html

Those are the stats I used.

Rory,

Those stats speak volumes about what I have been saying. Thanks for posting the link.

Deans must be kicking himself now after earlier stating Pocock was the best openside in the World - for starters he is wrong and second he can't now return to Christchurch when he is sacked by the ARU later this year or he'll be lynched.