Kieran Read shines during Blackout

Going into the bledisole cup game today I was of the opinion that Read is overated by many Kiwi's. An opinion strongly disagreed with so I decided to give Read my undivided attention.

Read was okay in the first half, putting in some good tackles and carries, just like the rest of the NZ forwards. So I was still convinced he was just a solid, unspectacular player that puts in about as much work as the rest of the All Blacks forwards.

In the second half he (Read) was outstanding and one of the best players on the field. He was everywhere, at every breakdown and under the high balls whilst carrying on with the good hits, runs and pick-ups off the back of scrums. Romano and Whitelock had a high work rate and each made extremely effective contributions; but in the 2nd half the spotlight was on the All Black no8. He gave his all, and looked to give more. This game was probably the only time he has had my undivided attention. Surely he was MOTM (if they still select that?), just ahead of Dagg, Aaron Smith, Williams. These four also made effective contributions to New Zealands 22 nil victory, but Read gets my pick.

Always good to hear someone admit they were wrong!

This is like the opposite of the 'I told you so' thread.

I'm not convinced I'm wrong.... Yet!

I will be watching Read closely for the remainder of the tournament. Also, after having a good season Higginbotham has been disapointing so far.

Read overated by many kiwis morgan?

Wasn't aware of that.

Thought he was his typical self tonight following on from last year and to have this form after coming back from a fairly lengthy layoff speaks volumes for his commitment.

SBW is still the enigma for me. The level of improvement from last year to this has been incredible. Who knows what he would have gone on to do in the position but certainly one of the standout players so far this year.

Yes, SBW was good today but I'm not convinced of the pairing with Nonu.

The last several times I've watched Conrad Smith play I've been more convinced than ever that he's the most complete centre in world rugby. Is he injured or is he just not being selected?

Injured with having to have an op for a 'retinal tear' in his eye.

Back next match which is why SBW was asked to stand in before he goes to japan-league in oz.

I agree with the OP. There are a few AB's who when you watch them play you wonder would they actually be anythig special in other teams? But when you then focus on one of these guys often they'll completely prove you wrong.

I didnt think that Reid did anything different last night to what he has done every test in the last year.

I think SBW is still learning. He's an outstanding player. Physically and basic skill wise he's immense, Some of his decision making is still a work in progress. Hopefully he comes back. Be interesting to see him at the rugby league world cup next year.

How good is Read?
McCaw plays better when Read is on!
Read had a normal game by his standards I reckon. He's been out of rugby and injured a lot this year. So for him to finish both tests I thought was good work. I think he'll be a lot better for the two games and then the coming week off.

offload wrote:Yes, SBW was good today but I'm not convinced of the pairing with Nonu.

The last several times I've watched Conrad Smith play I've been more convinced than ever that he's the most complete centre in world rugby. Is he injured or is he just not being selected?

They are both 12's, so unsurprisingly it doesn't work when one plays 13.

I don't believe NZ play a centre pairing on attack as such, say in the same way Wales or SA ( when fourie was playing) do.

The combination is more 9/10/12 and 13/11(or 14)/15 as a rule. Essentially two combinations- inside and outside. Generally you don't see conrad smith and nonu or sbw working together because by that time its either an inside or wide shift of the ball. So I think Nonu generally struggled at the centre roll, it wasn't a pair issue at all as SBW played well.

Reads comments after the match (AB Website). Ominous for others with the end statement:

"I think there's definite (room for) improvement," Read said. "You look out there today, the opportunities we're creating and not finishing.

"There's probably three or four tries left on the paddock. We've got to work hard at that."

Another area of improvement would the lineout, which Read took upon himself.

"Personally I probably didn't have my best game there in terms of calling early on.

"It didn't get us off on the right foot early. We fixed it and the second half was great but first half we can improve on."

But overall, the performance was a statement fired at the rest of the Investec Rugby Championship contenders.

The Wallabies were only too keen to give it their endorsement, with coach Robbie Deans and captain Will Genia united in the feeling that no other side in the world would have got near the All Blacks on the night.

"On the field, you want teams to walk off feeling that," Read said.

"That's our goal to put teams in that mindset and I guess once they're in there it makes our job easier on the field.

"The sooner we can do that teams, that puts us in a hold over them.

"We've got to not rest on our laurels there and continue to improve."

I just watched the world cup final again and although I didn't notice Read's performance out of sheer aweness of the spectacle the first time, i noticed it this time and his work rate and ball carrying ability is amazing.
Its not to say he has lost it, he is still as destructive as then, he is the Kiwi's main ball carrying threat, every team has one, the difference is the All Blacks utilise Read so that every run he makes is devastating, whether its off the ruck pop or off Nonu or Carter.
He makes ground every time, not only that but hes not a stupid runner, he spots the gap and unleashes into it, he never looks for the man to just smash into, he always finds the gap and bursts into it.

It's true that he used to carry in tandem with Kaino and that was some good duo to have.

This year the all blacks seem to be using a lot this predetermined off-load from a back to a big carrier right on the gain line. Seems to be Retallick and Romano and Read trying to get the ball right on the shoulder of the defender. Will be interesting to see if they still try this against the bigger forward units in SA and ARG or resort to the familiar back line moves, especially when Conrad Smith is back.

The thing the All Blacks do well I feel is that the ball carriers look for the gaps and not the man and they are utilised very well in that if the defence is tight they will move the ball carriers out and if the defence is a bit looser they pop the ball onto a rampaging foward alot of the time that is Read. Teams like South Africa get away with running into the man because they are just so big, while Aussie fowards do the same as the Springbok pack but just cant get away with it.

drsambo1928 wrote:Teams like South Africa get away with running into the man because they are just so big, while

True... though youd think going through an open door rather than the wall beside it would be easier, and less sore for the head.

drsambo1928 wrote:The thing the All Blacks do well I feel is that the ball carriers look for the gaps and not the man and they are utilised very well in that if the defence is tight they will move the ball carriers out and if the defence is a bit looser they pop the ball onto a rampaging foward alot of the time that is Read. Teams like South Africa get away with running into the man because they are just so big, while Aussie fowards do the same as the Springbok pack but just cant get away with it.

When they used it sparingly like they did before. Now with Meyer that's all they do and it's not working

Well, the Springboks need to become generally annoying to play against again, in terms of holding up the opposition ball carrier, slowing down ball and being so heavy they are harder to clear out of rucks and they need Steyn to get that kicking game back to its best, then they will be a force.

I feel the Springboks always try to look for the man because they always look for the chance to hurt the opposition any chance they get, not throwing a dig at them, its just they go out on the field to try to physically humiliate any team they play against because its just their pschye.

drsambo1928 wrote:Well, the Springboks need to become generally annoying to play against again, in terms of holding up the opposition ball carrier, slowing down ball and being so heavy they are harder to clear out of rucks and they need Steyn to get that kicking game back to its best, then they will be a force.

I feel the Springboks always try to look for the man because they always look for the chance to hurt the opposition any chance they get, not throwing a dig at them, its just they go out on the field to try to physically humiliate any team they play against because its just their pschye.

Can't really agree with either of these statements. Steyns kicking will never consistently win matches ever again no matter how accurate his kicking is. And are we really of the opinion that SA have a gameplan that comprises the deliberate running into players to injure them? Interesting how this would work at sxv and currie cup level if both sides know either is out to injure.

I think they deserve more credit than that. It may be that they like to run straight, not wanting to complicate things, shortest route to the line etc. That would explain it better. Doesn't make them that much more smarter but there you go.

I see Jake Whites having a go at meyer now...says that under pressure he'll revert to type...pick more and more bulls type players. Which makes the selection of goosen completely against the grain-young, inexperienced, confident, takes chances etc.

Will annoy if he ignores him like he has lambie and hides behind the 'not ready yet veil'.

Steyns kicking can win them matches, how,taylorman, can you not see this, kicking to the corners and up and unders, the old pressure game he was so good at enforcing, obviously the line out needs to be superb but the SA lineout generally is.

And I never said they go out to injure other players, you put those words there and fabricated what I said, I said they go out to hurt the opposition in a physicaly humiliating way, i.e. running over them, knocking them backwards, dominating the scrum and being very physical and aggressive, anyone who has played in a pack knows that being smashed and run over and just generally dominated are moments of hell and demoralising, thus enhancing the SA's victory in the foward battle, and whats the old saying, fowards decide who win, backs decide the score, with SA's fowards winning the battle, a victory looks to be on the cards.

Here's an interesting opinion piece from planetrugby drsambo:

Among several peers in the rugby world, the gut feeling was that Meyer's appointment came perhaps a couple of years late, that Bulls rugby is no longer enough to conquer all in the modern era, that South Africa produces some fine physical specimens but that the skill level - and attention to skills generally in the rainbow nation - is tumbling into the dust kicked up by the acceleration of other nations.

On Saturday's evidence, you'd have to say that gut feeling was right. Every time the Boks got the ball, it either went up in the air or got shipped out to backs running nondescript lines and forwards running in predictable pods. It was a defence coach's dream, and Argentina lapped it up.

The same fate ultimately befell the Stormers and Bulls in Super Rugby. Predictable rugby well-executed was tough to cope with, but once the physical defensive veneer was broken there was no substance under the surface. Both SA's flagship teams crashed out unable to chase down opposition leads. Had Frans Steyn not got a lucky bounce on Saturday, the national team was heading the same way.

The leading rugby culture in South Africa has long been based on the smash, suffocate and strangle rugby that brought home the 2007 World Cup, delivered by a corps of experienced players who had it down to a tee. Those players have gone and the rest of the world has been busy moving on, as South Africa are now discovering.

Without a willingness to admit the game has changed and an initiative to try and weave those changes into the national culture from Meyer et al, the Springboks could find themselves facing - relatively - a lean few years ahead.

Seems a fair assessment of where SA is at and what they're trying to do. Strangely this tactic largely worked for them against England, who you'd think has a formidable forward unit similar to that of Argentina. It can be effective but if a team gets on top of SA or more importantly gets a lead, they seem to have few options of getting back into the game.

Well Kia you put in alot of commitment there and I commend you on that, in SA's defence, they beat the Argies handily enough in South Africa so I dont think the team should be attacked by people. However their style can beat anyone, I still don't think that they should do a drastic switch to a different style, You have also mentioned a point I and many others have neglected, i.e. the players who were great at the physical game are not playing for SA any more through injury or playing abroad or retirement e.g. Botha, Smith,Matfield, Smit, Burger. And Du Preez I feel is sorely missed, even though he wasnt on form when he left, when he is on form he is hugely benefitial to the fowards.

You said steyn could win matches. Well when has it last two years against the top two? Steyns misses failed to secure the argie win. SA need so much to go right with their current setup just to win matches.
All the England matches were close in the end and m steyn was poor all three. In the world cup SA had close matches in all the primary pool ones without stamping authority over the lesser ranked wales and samoa. In the 3 N they failed to front.

So you really have to go back a long way to find either a dominant or consistent SA, this years side looking worse than last years.

As kiwis we must be critical of our greatest foe simply because we expect much more from them. We know they're much better than this and just seem to be content with mediocrity, and unfortunately its their coaching, selection and gameplan once again letting them down.

I think you are too quick to run down the Saffars, I mean I am not from there and have no connection to the place but I feel they are the 2nd best rugby nation in the world. Before the 2007 world cup not every match went to plan e.g. losing 49 nil to the Aussies, sure they won it in 2004 but after that wasnt plain sailing, and Steyn, while off form now will eventually find his form again.

Perhaps. Perhaps we need someone up there to keep us honest and SA are usually that side.

For me oz have been stronger than SA last two years even though they havnt been consistent either. But the reason I say that is they've played to their potential on the odd occasion- the 3N decider in brisbane last year the best example.

Sa havnt played to their potential for a long time.

3 years isnt that long of a time

A lot of top careers dont last three years.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
A lot of top careers dont last three years.

Yeah they do,name some please.

Nicholas Houghton Allen

One of the most talented All Blacks Ever...

Thats one you said alot, please name alot(never heard of yer man though)

Jeez Sambo can you give me your definition of a lot, I get the feeling your just trying to pizz me about.

It may pay for you to do a bit of research on Nicky Allen you might learn something.

I had Fox's autobio. He was waiting for training to start and was watching Allen-who went to the 22 on the right side of the field and dropped a goal with his left foot, then dropped a goal from the 22 on the left side with his right. He then walked to the middle of the 22 yard line and dropped a goal with his heel. Fox wrote "I pondered my future".

Could have rivalled Barry John if he'd been able to have a longer career. Not that it matters in context, his family would rather have had him for longer in general. Such a tragedy.

I'm sorry for trying to annoy you but alot is surely more then one and Allen from what i read died young playing rugby, very sad.

Would Charles Riechelmann be another? If Chris Ashton took notice of what happened to him he wouldn't be doing those stupid swandives.

This is top career stuff isn't it-I dunno what he did after but he was never the same and fizzed out.

Sonny Bill Williams. His rugby career will be less than 3 years by the time he goes back to the Roosters.

drsambo1928 wrote:I'm sorry for trying to annoy you but alot is surely more then one and Allen from what i read died young playing rugby, very sad.

Point being, that for some three years might be a short career, others a long career and for others a life time.

but back to the silly game.

what about Anthony Boric, or Jared Hoeata.

You cleverly escape your hole Laurie, well done.