Is Toby Faletau better than Kieran Read

by dragon4life Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:11 am

Debate:)

by Scrumdown Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:18 am

yes, but not as good as parisse.

by Artful_Dodger Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:20 am

I would say when he really hits top form Faletau is as good as anyone, but he's not as consistent as Read, nowhere near in fact. Faletau blows hot and cold a bit, he had some very quiet games for the Lions recently which is why Heaslip was given the nod for the first two tests.

by **Notch** Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:27 am

No, not quite.

by **Notch** Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:29 am

I think he has the potential to become as good as Read though, he's still a pretty young guy and quite talented. Read is just very consistently excellent whatever team he is playing in, with no real weaknesses.

by youngguns6 Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:32 am

He was consistent on the lions. What on earth are you on about.
He was very good in every game. Ended the tour with the most defenders beaten and most offloads.

He's quality, Wales's game plan is quite direct and tight at times and Toby's fine in this but he's great when the game is more open. Such great feet. He's only going to get better at just 22.

by youngguns6 Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:33 am

Also I'd love to bet that he will be the first test lion to play for their club this season.

by Artful_Dodger Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:35 am

youngguns6 wrote:He was consistent on the lions. What on earth are you on about.

What reasoning would you put behind Gatland's decision to start Heaslip for the first 2 tests then? Even had he been as consistent as you are making out, if he's not better than Heaslip, he's hardly better than Read is he....?

by doctor_grey Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:52 am

Comparing Read and Falateau is not easy. They play different styles and have different strengths. Both are good. Read is more experienced. But very different players.

I would turn the question to which player does Falateau most remind one of? And how does he stack up?

by Brendan Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:08 am

Toby is good but not amasing. When you look at othrr number eights he doesn't do as well consisently as mentioned.

Others look great even when their team is falling apart, too many games for dragons and Wales he appears for small parts then dont see him for fifteen twenty minutes.
Dragons really could do with him being the parise of gwent rugby, sadly he'll be gone in a year or two.
I would have parise, heaslip, morgan and i think its picamoles over him in the NH. I often feel that he crashes through and thats it. But he is young so would expect he could be top in five years time.

by flyhalffactory Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:48 pm

IMHO he had more poor games than good games on the Lion tour, he was at best inconsistent. I believe Morgan would have gone with Heaslip if he hadn't been injured and is a better all round player than Toby. In fact I would go as far to say that Ryan Jones is a better 8.

by Taylorman Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:12 pm

Read keeps getting compared to the likes of Picamoles, Parisse and Faletau and every time he lines up against them outpoints them in just about every facet...Not sure what he has to do...perhaps its the players around him...

by blackcanelion Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:44 pm

No

Next question

by **Biltong** Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:39 pm

Wait till the All Blacks next play Wales, then you can see for yourself.

by **LondonTiger** Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:14 pm

No
No
No
No

Hmm I struggle at this debate thingy

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:13 pm

Artful_Dodger wrote:
youngguns6 wrote:He was consistent on the lions. What on earth are you on about.

What reasoning would you put behind Gatland's decision to start Heaslip for the first 2 tests then?

I'd say Heaslip got the nod for his leadership qualities (same with O'Driscoll). When there wasn't much evidence of those qualities in the first two Tests, Gatland decided to go with the better player.

Let's not pretend Heaslip hasn't gone missing for Ireland in the recent past either.

by **Biltong** Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:15 pm

dragon4life wrote:Debate:)

I am assuming you believe he is?

by youngguns6 Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:23 pm

He carries the dragons every game, never goes missing.

by RuggerRadge2611 Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:27 pm

Faleteu is a great player, but come on.... better than Kierran Read? Think about it guys.

by Bathite Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:35 pm

Nowhere near

by Brendan Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:55 pm

Biltong wrote:
dragon4life wrote:Debate:)
I am assuming you believe he is?

The fact he couldn't give one reason why he was better sayes it all. If Morgan hadn't left Wales its debatable if Toby would be playing.

by Stone Motif Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:11 pm

Brendan wrote:
Biltong wrote:
dragon4life wrote:Debate:)
I am assuming you believe he is?

The fact he couldn't give one reason why he was better sayes it all. If Morgan hadn't left Wales its debatable if Toby would be playing.

by RuggerRadge2611 Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:20 pm

I'm still unsure why Parisse's name is still banded about. Picamoles has been much better this year and IMO has been form no.8 in the world.

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:21 pm

Louis Picamoles is class. he carried Les Bleus last Six Nations.

by Brendan Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:44 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Louis Picamoles is class. he carried Les Bleus last Six Nations.

+1

I think parise is still great but not as good. In many games picamoles was the only french player going forward and not turning over.

by Cyril Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:59 pm

Faletau is so good the fans of the region he plays for don't even know how to spell his name properly Laugh

by Brendan Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:07 pm

Cyril wrote:Faletau is so good the fans of the region he plays for don't even know how to spell his name properly

Prephas they are spelling it in welsh.

by Cyril Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:21 pm

Brendan wrote:
Cyril wrote:Faletau is so good the fans of the region he plays for don't even know how to spell his name properly

Prephas they are spelling it in welsh.

I think that would be Fynngwyddlais.

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:32 pm

Cyril wrote:Faletau is so good the fans of the region he plays for don't even know how to spell his name properly

Whatever you say, Cyrli...

by ScarletSpiderman Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:43 pm

Brendan wrote:
Biltong wrote:
dragon4life wrote:Debate:)
I am assuming you believe he is?

The fact he couldn't give one reason why he was better sayes it all. If Morgan hadn't left Wales its debatable if Toby would be playing.

If Ben Morgan had chosen to be welsh, bet he wishes he had now, then I think both him and Toby would be swapped around, horses for courses (as kindus used to say).

Faletau is undoubtedly a very good running play type of nuymber 8, where as Morgan is a very good biff/bash type number 8. Both Faletau and Morgan do the other stuff decent too, in fairness. I think Toby should, with time, become on of the greats in the position, after all he is still a kid really and probably has another 10yrs+ to go.

by RuggerRadge2611 Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:50 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Brendan wrote:
Biltong wrote:
dragon4life wrote:Debate:)
I am assuming you believe he is?

The fact he couldn't give one reason why he was better sayes it all. If Morgan hadn't left Wales its debatable if Toby would be playing.

If Ben Morgan had chosen to be welsh, bet he wishes he had now, then I think both him and Toby would be swapped around, horses for courses (as kindus used to say).

Faletau is undoubtedly a very good running play type of nuymber 8, where as Morgan is a very good biff/bash type number 8. Both Faletau and Morgan do the other stuff decent too, in fairness. I think Toby should, with time, become on of the greats in the position, after all he is still a kid really and probably has another 10yrs+ to go.

I said the same about Johnnie Beattie a few seasons ago and injury put an end to that. Faletau is in a great position and has time on his side, however rugby's a hard game and as with Beattie it might only take one injury to change your play style.

Currently I think Picamoles and Read are the best in the world. Faletau is a distant third but there isn't much between him and the likes of Parisse, Morgan or an on form Heaslip.

by Sgt_Pooly Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:23 pm

Faletau is a huge talent but not in Read's class yet. Not many 8's are tbh, possibly Parisse.

by Knowsit17 Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:48 am

Picamoles and Morgan are more in the direct, rampaging mould imo. Picamoles in particular does it better than anyone else. No matter how well or poorly France as a team are playing he's there consistently breaking the line and making the yards pretty much every game he plays.

Now I know Toby makes a lot of carries but he doesn't always make that much ground. He specialises in work rate as also highlighted by his tackle count but having said that he is liable to having quiet games, especially for Wales. He's yet to become as prominent as Parisse but to an extent I rate his skillset as similar in terms of dynamism as he can be seen making offloads and turnovers. As opposed to the power 8 outlined above he has a broader range of skills but doesn't seem to specialise in any area in particular, at least as of yet.

Despite his being rated among the best I couldn't tell you so much about Read as I've had limited exposure to him. I don't have access to S15 fixtures and therefore I could only judge based on the odd NZ game where he's fit and starting. From my limited knowledge he does also seem to have a decent variety of skills in his toolbox.

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:52 am

The great thing about Picamoles is that as well as being difficult to put down, he has great hands and is always looking for the offload. The only thing he really lacks is a good turn of speed.

by **Biltong** Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:53 am

Parisse doesn't have the support Read has, Read can go on the run and do the "glory runs" after space and time has been created by McCaw etc.

How good would Parisse be if he had the same support?

by Brendan Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:57 am

The key with toby is he has the potential in five years to be the best if he contiues as he has.

At the dragons does he have someone who can continue to push him and to be always looking to move to the next level. You would feel he will be the no 8 for wales for a bit so he wouldn't have that need to improve to keep his place.

by Brendan Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:00 am

Biltong wrote:Parisse doesn't have the support Read has, Read can go on the run and do the "glory runs" after space and time has been created by McCaw etc.

How good would Parisse be if he had the same support?

Would parisse have kept his place, bar a few it seems like the older players 28+ seem to be replaced by younger people. Maybe im wrong but often it seems like you get 4-6 years as an AB and then someone has replaced you.

by Guest Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:01 am

Brendan wrote:The key with toby is he has the potential in five years to be the best if he contiues as he has.

At the dragons does he have someone who can continue to push him and to be always looking to move to the next level. You would feel he will be the no 8 for wales for a bit so he wouldn't have that need to improve to keep his place.

Current Wales U20's starter Ieuan Jones aye.

by Jhamer25 Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:00 am

Don't know never really thought much of Read. He is a great player but i dont see him play as much which is why i'm not sure.
Doesn't' matter anyway, the best 8 in world rugby is Louis Picomoles, he has all the attributes of what a great 8 has. One of the best players out there

by Jhamer25 Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:03 am

Taylorman wrote:Read keeps getting compared to the likes of Picamoles, Parisse and Faletau and every time he lines up against them outpoints them in just about every facet...Not sure what he has to do...perhaps its the players around him...

Pretty sure Picomoles was the star backrow out of both teams in their previous three test series. Picomoles stood out much more than Read so i don't know what you were point scoring their games on. But Picomoles was clearly the better 8. Shame he got injured

by Knowsit17 Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:38 am

Jhamer25 wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Read keeps getting compared to the likes of Picamoles, Parisse and Faletau and every time he lines up against them outpoints them in just about every facet...Not sure what he has to do...perhaps its the players around him...

Pretty sure Picamoles was the star backrow out of both teams in their previous three test series. Picamoles stood out much more than Read so i don't know what you were point scoring their games on. But Picamoles was clearly the better 8. Shame he got injured

I'm in a picky mood today.

by Knowsit17 Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:44 am

For the sake of consistency, to my knowledge there exists nobody playing rugby by the name of Toby Falateau.

In anticipation, nor is there anyone called Reed currently playing for NZ.

by stnick88 Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:51 am

Read and Parisse are the 2 best 8's by a fair bit.

Then you have the likes of Faletau, Picamoles and Morgan.

by Taylorman Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:12 am

Jhamer25 wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Read keeps getting compared to the likes of Picamoles, Parisse and Faletau and every time he lines up against them outpoints them in just about every facet...Not sure what he has to do...perhaps its the players around him...

Pretty sure Picomoles was the star backrow out of both teams in their previous three test series. Picomoles stood out much more than Read so i don't know what you were point scoring their games on. But Picomoles was clearly the better 8. Shame he got injured

Care to share when...the last test they played Picamoles had a mare then went of injured out of the tour- player ratings were Read 8.0 Picamoles 2.0 so even given any slightest bias how hat can be construed as the better no. 8 is doubtful...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/8801243/Clinical-All-Blacks-keep-France-scoreless

"There could be no question of any of those locals being distracted last night and captain and Read was out to prove a point.

France have a real talent in Picamoles but Read is a shade above the man from Toulouse. He was the All Blacks' everywhere man as this memorable victory unfolded."

by fa0019 Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:12 am

Biltong wrote:Parisse doesn't have the support Read has, Read can go on the run and do the "glory runs" after space and time has been created by McCaw etc.

How good would Parisse be if he had the same support?

I think Parisse is built up too much. At SF when they had some of the best players in Europe he was never stand out. Hes a good player in an average team. Picamoles one on one was far better in their 6N match up even though France lost.... but its a team game.

Faletau has a long way to establishing himself as top of the pile. Potential sure but that always has to be taken with caution.

by Knowsit17 Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:28 am

fa0019 wrote:
Biltong wrote:Parisse doesn't have the support Read has, Read can go on the run and do the "glory runs" after space and time has been created by McCaw etc.

How good would Parisse be if he had the same support?

I think Parisse is built up too much. At SF when they had some of the best players in Europe he was never stand out. Hes a good player in an average team. Picamoles one on one was far better in their 6N match up even though France lost.... but its a team game.

Faletau has a long way to establishing himself as top of the pile. Potential sure but that always has to be taken with caution.

I've suspected as much for a while. It'd be interesting to see how he'd fare if it were possible to convert him to a top 3 nation. A good player undoubtedly but showing up well for a losing side and showing up well for a winning side are two different things.

Although that statement can just as easily be reversed and it is often claimed that players are rated so highly because they also have class playing around them. Would Read still have amassed his rep if he were Italian?

by Casartelli Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:45 am

As mentioned above, this is a cheese and chalk debate. Or talking gorgonzola when it's clearly brie time, baby. They are completely different types of player. Like trying to compare Carlos Spencer to 'Jonny'.

Who's the best No.8 in world rugby? Ben Morgan probably, when he isn't carrying 25kg of pies and pastie weight. Or Pierre Spies when not injured/ill/posing around.

Will any of these be talked about, 10 years from now, as 'all time legends of the game'?

No. Except Spies, maybe.

by **Notch** Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:21 am

I think Sergio Parisse will be remembered by many as a top class player once he retires. All time legend? Certainly one of the outstanding players of his generation.

by The Bachelor Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:46 am

I don't think you can say Faletau is in Read's class, but he's still young and will hopefully keep improving.

by Taylorman Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:14 am

Casartelli wrote:As mentioned above, this is a cheese and chalk debate. Or talking gorgonzola when it's clearly brie time, baby. They are completely different types of player. Like trying to compare Carlos Spencer to 'Jonny'.

Who's the best No.8 in world rugby? Ben Morgan probably, when he isn't carrying 25kg of pies and pastie weight. Or Pierre Spies when not injured/ill/posing around.

Will any of these be talked about, 10 years from now, as 'all time legends of the game'?

No. Except Spies, maybe.

The best of Read is yet to come...with one Wcup and likely two? Possibly the next as el capitaine...you bet- 10 years isnt long enough. thumbsup

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