Is Toby Faletau better than Kieran Read

by dragon4life Wed 24 Jul 2013, 11:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

Debate:)

by The Saint Thu 25 Jul 2013, 9:40 pm

To be the best back-row in the world you need to be Irish.

by Taylorman Thu 25 Jul 2013, 9:46 pm

Gosh...didnt know Murray Mexted was Irish...Michael Jones sounds more Welsh...
Todd Blackadder...now thats an englishman if ever there was (according to Rowan anyway)...

McCaw...a Scot perhaps? plays like one as well.

by The Saint Thu 25 Jul 2013, 9:54 pm

Lydiate is better than both players, it's just nobody knows that because it's always unseen.

by Higher_Ground Thu 25 Jul 2013, 10:00 pm

Toby doesn't go missing, it's just at 22 he doesn't have that ability yet to anticipate play as well as some of the more experienced 8's that have been mentioned. I can bet that Parisse does half the running to be twice as involved as Faletau.
Watch his performance in the last lions test though, always cool in contact and getting over the gainline, and his defence/turnovers at critical times were, well, critical. Game awareness can be learnt, and will be.

by flyhalffactory Thu 25 Jul 2013, 10:32 pm

Higher_Ground

I think Toby most certainly does go missing in games, and he has one or two pretty quiet Lions games. You cant deny his your and he is yet to become "hardened" but IMHO whenever he has come up against the classier 8s (HC matches or Internationals) he has mostly come off second best to-date.

Saying that he is only 22 but comparing him to Ben Morgan at 24 I don't think he is as destructive a runner or as good a destructive tackler but Morgan has two years on him.

As I said if Morgan hadn't been injured I believe he would have travelled with Heaslip with Toby as a reserve. Luckily for Faletau if Ryan Jones wasn't injured then I think he would have been further down the pile.

by flyhalffactory Thu 25 Jul 2013, 10:33 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:Higher_Ground

I think Toby most certainly does go missing in games, and he has one or two pretty quiet Lions games. You cant deny his youth and he is yet to become "hardened" but IMHO whenever he has come up against the classier 8s (HC matches or Internationals) he has mostly come off second best to-date.

Saying that he is only 22 but comparing him to Ben Morgan at 24 I don't think he is as destructive a runner or as good a destructive tackler but Morgan has two years on him.

As I said if Morgan hadn't been injured I believe he would have travelled with Heaslip with Toby as a reserve. Luckily for Faletau if Ryan Jones wasn't injured then I think he would have been further down the pile.

by Guest Thu 25 Jul 2013, 10:42 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:Higher_Ground

I think Toby most certainly does go missing in games, and he has one or two pretty quiet Lions games. You cant deny his your and he is yet to become "hardened" but IMHO whenever he has come up against the classier 8s (HC matches or Internationals) he has mostly come off second best to-date.

Saying that he is only 22 but comparing him to Ben Morgan at 24 I don't think he is as destructive a runner or as good a destructive tackler but Morgan has two years on him.

As I said if Morgan hadn't been injured I believe he would have travelled with Heaslip with Toby as a reserve. Luckily for Faletau if Ryan Jones wasn't injured then I think he would have been further down the pile.

Disagree on Ryan. He would maybe have travelled over Lydiate, but not Toby. Also, had Morgan been fit, they may have taken an extra eight.

by Jhamer25 Thu 25 Jul 2013, 10:57 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Jhamer25 wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Read keeps getting compared to the likes of Picamoles, Parisse and Faletau and every time he lines up against them outpoints them in just about every facet...Not sure what he has to do...perhaps its the players around him...

Pretty sure Picomoles was the star backrow out of both teams in their previous three test series. Picomoles stood out much more than Read so i don't know what you were point scoring their games on. But Picomoles was clearly the better 8. Shame he got injured

Care to share when...the last test they played Picamoles had a mare then went of injured out of the tour- player ratings were Read 8.0 Picamoles 2.0 so even given any slightest bias how hat can be construed as the better no. 8 is doubtful...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/8801243/Clinical-All-Blacks-keep-France-scoreless

"There could be no question of any of those locals being distracted last night and captain and Read was out to prove a point.

France have a real talent in Picamoles but Read is a shade above the man from Toulouse. He was the All Blacks' everywhere man as this memorable victory unfolded."

In all fairness thoguh they are completley different 8's. You might not be biased i'm not saying you are but i'm Welsh and won't have nay bias towards the matter.
I guess Picomoles suits the type of game play and techniques off what I think a great number 8 should require. Read is a great 8 but for me he isn't the dominent ball carrying type. He has the skill and a great work rate but so does Picomoles and Picomoles can get you over that gain line and make breaks from nothing. His off loads are magical (really i just don't understand how he pulls some of them off). I thought he was doing good before he got injured and and he was amazing in the first test.
Also that link doesn't change my opinion one bit, it's from a New Zealand article and clearly has a bias towards the team. I mean over here we have a site called Walesonline and the bias it has towards the Welsh players is pathetic, they build some of our players up to be invincible.

by Guest Fri 26 Jul 2013, 12:17 am

fa0019 wrote:
I think Parisse is built up too much. At SF when they had some of the best players in Europe he was never stand out. Hes a good player in an average team. Picamoles one on one was far better in their 6N match up even though France lost.... but its a team game.

Faletau has a long way to establishing himself as top of the pile. Potential sure but that always has to be taken with caution.

This is why it's difficult to compare Read with Parisse. Sergio seems to have carved out his role as the iconic, one-man-team, underdog number 8, who carries his limited team. When Parisse is on form, it's often said it's as if there are several Parrises on the pitch, because he is everywhere and takes the mantle upon himself. And he is excellent at this.

Read, obviously, surrounded by the best players in the world, performs a very different role, and is used to winning Test games where Parisse is used to losing them. When Parisse was in a quality Stade side during the last decade, he never consistently put in his 'Italian' performances.

Parrise is fading with age so it's difficult to compare. He's been an incredible player during the fledgling Six Nations years, and one who will be remembered forever as a symbol of Italian pride as they made their way into the professional game. Where he sits in relation to "great" number 8s is difficult, because he didn't transfer his "one-man-team" performance onto the club stage. I'd still rank him as one of the best 8s of the professional age.

Also some people have neglected to mention Fernandez-Lobbe? Performed a similar role, albeit alongside better players, as Parisse did with Italy. I also realise that JMFL is nto necessarily an out and out 8, but he's played there enough times and has all the skills for one.

To answer the original question, probably not, but possibly could be. He needs to shed a little bulk in my opinion, would be good to see him in the midfield again for the Dragons carving open defences during breakaways, though don't sacrifice 'grunt weight' in order to do this. Exciting times for Wales, but as mentioned earlier, he really needs some pressure on him. Aside from Ryan, who is no more a 6 and coming to the end of his career, who is a serious and proven option at 8? Andy Powell, now unavailable? Jonathan Thomas, over the hill/never that impressive? Time to blood someone with '15 in mind.

by **profitius** Fri 26 Jul 2013, 2:46 am

Read is the best 8 in the world. Picamoles and Parisse are good but Read has everything you'd want from an 8. Faletau is a few levels below Read, probably around the Heaslip level - a solid international 8.

by Gunner Fri 26 Jul 2013, 4:09 am

No. Faletau is good and he probably will get better.
But if he was as good as Read he would have played 240 minutes during the test series in Australia.

by ChequeredJersey Fri 26 Jul 2013, 10:32 am

Faletau is not better than Read. Someone said he carries the Dragons (thought that would be Lydiate with his unseen work?) in which case he evidently doesn't carry them very far...

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 26 Jul 2013, 10:36 am

Thanks for the cheap shot, CJ. In any case, it's a fallacy that a player in a poor team must therefore be a poor player.

by flyhalffactory Fri 26 Jul 2013, 10:41 am

ChequeredJersey wrote:Faletau is not better than Read. Someone said he carries the Dragons (thought that would be Lydiate with his unseen work?) in which case he evidently doesn't carry them very far...

Usual standard of contribution Tumbleweed

........... you really need to get that monkey off your shoulder mate.

The Lions 2013 are done and dusted.................. its summertime and the living is easy.

Enjoy the sun (by the way Dan has now gone off to pastures new..... just in case that bit of rugby news hasn't filtered up to the smoke yet!)

by ChequeredJersey Fri 26 Jul 2013, 10:56 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Thanks for the cheap shot, CJ. In any case, it's a fallacy that a player in a poor team must therefore be a poor player.

OK, that wasn't fair of me, I apologise. But it is equally a fallacy that a good player in a weaker team is responsible for propping them up which is unfair on them, and that they are as good as they seem playing for that side (it's a point of great debate whether a good player looks better in a good team or weak team see, see Parisse). For what it's worth I think Faletau had a decent Lions tour and is a better all around 8 than Morgan right now and a very good International number 8: but over the past 2 seasons Read has been the best performer in the Crusaders and All Blacks. Standing out in that crowd is far far harder than for the Dragons

by ChequeredJersey Fri 26 Jul 2013, 11:03 am

flyhalffactory wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:Faletau is not better than Read. Someone said he carries the Dragons (thought that would be Lydiate with his unseen work?) in which case he evidently doesn't carry them very far...

Usual standard of contribution ........... you really need to get that monkey off your shoulder mate.

The Lions 2013 are done and dusted.................. its summertime and the living is easy.

Enjoy the sun (by the way Dan has now gone off to pastures new..... just in case that bit of rugby news hasn't filtered up to the smoke yet!)

Yeah, I shouldn't have gone for the jibe but I have no monkey on my shoulder (isn't it chip on the shoulder and monkey on your back though? Never heard it phrased like that before). I know Dan has moved on and he did his job well enough in Aus, I shall forever be a sceptic about him though. Faletau may grow to be as good as Read but currently Read is a class apart. I cannot enjoy the sun, mostly because I am already back at Medical School

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 26 Jul 2013, 11:16 am

ChequeredJersey wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:Faletau is not better than Read. Someone said he carries the Dragons (thought that would be Lydiate with his unseen work?) in which case he evidently doesn't carry them very far...

Usual standard of contribution ........... you really need to get that monkey off your shoulder mate.

The Lions 2013 are done and dusted.................. its summertime and the living is easy.

Enjoy the sun (by the way Dan has now gone off to pastures new..... just in case that bit of rugby news hasn't filtered up to the smoke yet!)

Yeah, I shouldn't have gone for the jibe but I have no monkey on my shoulder (isn't it chip on the shoulder and monkey on your back though? Never heard it phrased like that before). I know Dan has moved on and he did his job well enough in Aus, I shall forever be a sceptic about him though. Faletau may grow to be as good as Read but currently Read is a class apart. I cannot enjoy the sun, mostly because I am already back at Medical School

Explains the cheap shot!

by yappysnap Fri 26 Jul 2013, 1:14 pm

Thought Falatou was very good, he's just not what I expected though. Being ignorant I thought from the look of him he'd be a real running threat like Picamoles but he's actually far more technical around the field then that, doesn't make many barnstormer a but just does a lot of good stuff.

by Guest Fri 26 Jul 2013, 4:32 pm

yappysnap wrote:Thought Falatou was very good, he's just not what I expected though. Being ignorant I thought from the look of him he'd be a real running threat like Picamoles but he's actually far more technical around the field then that, doesn't make many barnstormer a but just does a lot of good stuff.

I think he's got the talent to. He was a lot slimmer when he was 19 then bulked up over a pre-season. It's understandable he was going to put on mass as he got older, although he was big enough to start with, but I think, a lot like Ryan Jones a few years ago, it's weight that isn't necessarily helping him. That said, the way he stepped his way around half the England pack on the way to the second Welsh try a few months ago suggests he's still light enough on his feet.

by Mr Fishpaste Fri 26 Jul 2013, 5:49 pm

Pierre Spies is better than both...at least in the gym

by aucklandlaurie Tue 30 Jul 2013, 2:38 am

Read is a better captain, does that count?

Read has never lost a test as skipper, then again I suppose Falatau hasnt either.

by nganboy Tue 30 Jul 2013, 7:25 am

Is Faletau better than Vito who can't get a start at 8?

by MBTGOG Tue 30 Jul 2013, 10:39 am

Read is at or nearing the peak of his career at the moment and as others have pointed out, he is incredibly consistent. You could look at the argument that he plays in a pack, whether the Crusaders or All Blacks that is generally on the front foot, but it is a moot point because unless he moves, we can't see how he'd fare in a different environment, though you have to think he is one of the main reasons they have such a formidable forward pack.

Faletau is still young and potential of injury aside, has a long time to go at this level. He moves very well in tight spaces for a man of his size and has good ball skills already, which with the right coaching, could develop into making him a pretty special player allied to agility and size.

I think the player unfairly being left out of all this discussion is Juan Martin Fernandez Lobbe who I think deserves to be amongst any discussion looking at the elite No.8s in world rugby. I can only imagine seeing him in the All Black side and how he would excel in that, but he already does for his home nation. A fantastic all round player, shown in his ability to play right across the back row, in each position to a very high level, with tremendous footballing skills, a big engine in defence and a passionate and defiant leader of men on the rugby field!

by Guest Tue 30 Jul 2013, 4:34 pm

nganboy wrote:Is Faletau better than Vito who can't get a start at 8?

I'd say yes, he has more talent. Through the process of maturing over the next 2-3 years, I'd say he will by then be an obviously better player than Vito is now.

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