IF H-cup falls through what next for the PRO 12?

Currently It appears the French have their two back up plans, either a Anglo-French cup or expand Top 14.

English seam to be wanting a French/English cup, (if France just expand Top 14, will Prem be expanded? [ you can start another tread if you want to discuss it])

But what will the Pro 12 teams do?

I can see a number of options.

1) its been raised before that the Pro 12 teams could create a cup with the SA super XV teams,
Would his make up money wise for the H-Cup? would it be popular, both here and in SA?

2) Expand PRO 12 to the USA, if USA Rugby could finance 2 franchises, and centrally contact the main US players, they could become very good, very quickly and create a very big market. There a ready a number of good US players.

Think about the interest Leinster (or any Irish province) would create playing in New York or Boston. But likewise they have big Scottish and Italian (I'm sure theres loads of Welsh there to) communities.

Each team would travel over and do a two team Tour.

Could open up a big market and develop Rugby in the USA.

3) Have a Celtic cup and invite teams like Bucharest Wolves, VVA-Podmoskovye Monino, SC 1880 Frankfurt, and the Wild Rugby Academy, to take part.

4) Expand Pro 12 to have an extra Scottish, Italian and Welsh side in it

Personally I'd like to see the addiition of 2 USA teams, and a quick Cup tourament with SA.

I know USA is thinking of trying to gain entrance to Super XV, but I think that US fans would rather have teams like Leinster and Munster visit, than Blue Bulls and Crusaders, as a lot of the population will be familair with the Provinces (my granddaddy was from Munster) than with the Super XV champions.

Id say the Pro 12 with 2 US teams, and a Pro 12/SA Super XV teams cup could and would be a better product with bigger markets than either the AP and top 14 with Anglo/French cup.

if the Heineken cup disapear, am pretty sure another sort of european competition will be created. probably the kronenburg 1664 cup : 16 teams , 64 games !

How about simply offering the English and French places to Spanish, Romanian, Russian and Georgian clubs? Maybe even a couple more Italian franchises! Could go a long way towards expanding rugby throughout Europe?!

Not a bad idea Knowsir17.

Like the op's option no 2 aswell.

IF H-cup falls through what next for the PRO 12?

Bankruptcy.

We'll just form a comp with the French after they leave the English at the altar in their new BT wedding dress

What about this USA/USA qualified team/Canada team?

1) Callum Black Ulster
2) Chris Biller Northampton Saints
3) Eric Fry Manawatu in the ITM Cup
4)Samu Manoa Saints
5)
6) Scott LaValla stade francais
7) Jebb Sinclair Stormers
8) Todd Clever (c) NTT Shining Arcs
9)
10)
11) Tommy Seymour Glasgow
12) DTH van der Merwe Glasgow
13) Paul Emerick Wasps
14) Takudzwa Ngwenya biarritz
15)Chris Wyles sarcens

Ok some gaps for None US/Canada players but there are some good players to start the teams

HERSH wrote:IF H-cup falls through what next for the PRO 12?

Bankruptcy.

And if you people are left playing with yourselves all year round what then? ... at least English rugby will be doing something familiar, I guess..

The USA option is very interesting, and as you say opens a huge market - particularly if you throw a Canadian team in there. and If there's space in the calender for a SA/Pro12 cup tournament as well then it could be huge, and would be nice to not have to deal with the PRL and French clubs throwing their toys out of the pram every few seasons.

But doubt it would happen. What certainly won't though is for the French/English to get 75% membership and reduce each other unions to 6% or something. (just to make things fair)

The HC is a commercial necessity for a lot of clubs/regions. Even in the unlikely event that it ceases to exist sometime in the next few years, a suitable replacement, with similar commercial benefits, will have to take its place. It'll be interesting to see if legal battles ensue -- there is a lot at stake for ERC etc.

Kingshu wrote:2) Expand PRO 12 to the USA, if USA Rugby could finance 2 franchises, and centrally contact the main US players, they could become very good, very quickly and create a very big market. There a ready a number of good US players.

Think about the interest Leinster (or any Irish province) would create playing in New York or Boston. But likewise they have big Scottish and Italian (I'm sure theres loads of Welsh there to) communities.

Not that I think it will happen, but to play it out:
Having a team in NY and Boston would be great for Rugby. There are a lot of people claiming Irish descent in the Boston and New York areas. Also a huge number of people with italian descent as well. Scotts, too.. But I have been living in New Jersey off and on when not back home. Seems Jersey have a rigid quota on the Welsh................

whocares wrote:if the Heineken cup disapear, am pretty sure another sort of european competition will be created. probably the kronenburg 1664 cup : 16 teams , 64 games !

I agree. The French and English don't want an Anglo/French/Cup. They want a European Cup which benefits them more. If they kill the HC (and I'm increasingly starting to think that they will), they'll set up up a new tournament, and will turn around to the 4 other nations and say "You're welcome to join. These are our entry requirements and this is how the money is divided up".

BoyneRFC wrote:

HERSH wrote:IF H-cup falls through what next for the PRO 12?

Bankruptcy.

And if you people are left playing with yourselves all year round what then? ... at least English rugby will be doing something familiar, I guess..

You two are as bad as each other and should perhaps book into a motel.

The OP question assumes the Pro 12 teams will act as one.

If HC comp doesn't happen and an Anglo French comp is mooted then the IRFU should get down to negotiate participation in that. They're the only Pro 12 teams with history and success and they'd be a welcome addition, once people got over their initial huffs. After that, it's just business.

I think the Irish know their best interests lie in sticking with the other Rabo12 countries because it'll be just as easy for the Franglo's to exile them and leave them up sh!t creek as it is for any other country.

Looks like the RFU do have a little backbone...

The Deal is not condoned

https://www.606v2.com/t34946-rfu-say-no-to-prl-deal-with-bt

I thought about this a year or two or three ago..oh whenever the English were acting up last time..and let's face it, that always happens at the end of every HC competition.

Anyway, yes, the American angle was one I thought about. Even a US/Canadian link. Might seem too far fetched now but the potential is there that could make the England/France competition look like a peanut farting contest in a one man tent.
I mean if it came to being kicked out by the French/English combo, or asked back with a sneer by the French/English combo on tough conditions, then I'd prefer we take time to look at an alterative and US certainly has potential. I'd love us of the Pro12 to come back in a few years after we've gone our separate ways from the European big boys with a much bigger product than the French/English show and rub a few noses in it.................. maybe even ask them to they want in on our terms? US is home to large sections of Irish and Italians certainly and I'm sure sizeable Welsh and Scotch communities.

With the right structure and competitive American teams... we could have a winner... not immediately but in time, it's certainly an untapped resource waiting for an invite to some party.

Anyway, back to reality. I believe a solution will be found to current issues and we'll have a competition that looks quite similar to HC back on the agenda soon enough.

News just in - The IRFU and WRU are likely to table a proposal to RFU and FFR to reduce participation to eight teams from the Pro 12 - based on a top 8.

Still reeling from the earlier news but where did you read this?

HammerofThunor wrote:Still reeling from the earlier news but where did you read this?

Leaked to one S Jones esquire of the Sunday Times. Who also has an admiring column about the PRL and McCafferty alongside it. You want a copy?

From ST:

Celts plan to rescue Heineken Cup


THE BITTER row over the future of the Heineken Cup will take a new turn on Tuesday when the clubs of the six competing nations, together with representatives from their unions, gather in Dublin.

Europe’s premier club rugby competition, currently comprising 24 teams from England, France, Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Italy, is under threat after the English and French clubs served notice that they were unhappy with the existing qualification structure.

Premiership Rugby, the umbrella body of the top English clubs, went a step further last week when it announced a massive new deal with BT Vision, which included rights to transmit the matches of the England clubs in any new European tournament after 2014. European Rugby Cup, organisers of the Heineken Cup, claim they have no right to make this deal.

However, it now appears that the Welsh and Irish clubs will present proposals to their Anglo-French counterparts that would accede to a desire for a 20-club tournament that maintains 12 representatives from Europe’s two biggest nations but would see only the top eight sides, irrespective of nationality, qualify from the 12-club Rabo Pro12 — the league in which teams from the Celtic nations and Italy compete.

The top six clubs from the domestic leagues in England and France currently qualify for the Cup, while the other four countries are guaranteed at least two representatives each, with Ireland and Wales enjoying a minimum of three. Recent Irish success in the competition has also meant an additional place for the island’s weakest province, Connacht.

If the Irish-Welsh changes were adopted, it would mean that the only professional franchises in Italy and Scotland — Edinburgh and Glasgow, and Treviso and Zebre — could miss out on Heineken Cup action if they finish in the bottom four of the Pro12 — a realistic prospect. A compromise may be reached in which each nation is guaranteed at least one representative from the Pro12, meritocracy then taking over.

The Celtic nations were incensed by the announcement of Premiership Rugby’s TV deal. However, this latest proposal would show that they are prepared to give ground. They would also increase the intensity of the Pro12 League, with fewer games played between weakened sides.

I was hoping for more of a compromise with all 4 unions have 1 auto qualifier with the rest based on position.

HammerofThunor wrote:

I was hoping for more of a compromise with all 4 unions have 1 auto qualifier with the rest based on position.

That's what Scotland and Italy - unsurprisingly - will look for.

McCafferty may have a couple of more rabbits to pull out of the hat.

There's probably more to the BT deal regarding money for the Pro 12 and Top 14 teams. The creation of the third tier to be financed and developed over time.

And the final coup de grace will be administered at the end. "Now lads, in order for all this to happen, we can't really have the unions involved. It needs to be run in a more, shall we say, professional manner than you old farts - friends - have managed to do out here in this ... eh city. The BT Cup - that's just a working title obviously - needs to shift to a more central location - it just so happens there's a spare bit of space in the floor above us in Lion House. In fact, I took the liberty of renting the space for the next forty - sorry - four years, ready to move in, the kettle's already on. We just need to move everything. Well, I mean the files, and computers and stuff really..... Derek it would probably make sense for you to hang on here just to tidy up things....you wouldn't like the traffic over there anyway......

All in favour?

I think if the Rabo gives up 2 spaces then the English and French should give up 1 space each. That takes us to 8 Rabo, 5 English and 5 French. Then the additional 2 spaces go to HC and Amlin winners.

now it starts to get competitive. So if an English team won both the HC and Amlin then they could get 7 places the following year. Same for French.

What the Franglo people are asking for is the Rabo to give up 4 places while they keep all of their spaces. That's just unrealistic as far as I am concerned.

I'm all up for a change to the format and welcome this change, if this statement by SJ is true.

However I think it is more important, for the overall standard and growth of rugby, that the changes to the Amlin are forced through, no matter of results or money.

doctornickolas wrote:I think if the Rabo gives up 2 spaces then the English and French should give up 1 space each. That takes us to 8 Rabo, 5 English and 5 French. Then the additional 2 spaces go to HC and Amlin winners.

now it starts to get competitive. So if an English team won both the HC and Amlin then they could get 7 places the following year. Same for French.

What the Franglo people are asking for is the Rabo to give up 4 places while they keep all of their spaces. That's just unrealistic as far as I am concerned.

What Pot Hale posted was the suggested proposition from the PRO12 Unions. Not the demands of the PRL. As far as I'm aware the PRL haven't made any demands. That was a French proposal that they said they backed.

Kingshu wrote:Currently It appears the French have their two back up plans, either a Anglo-French cup or expand Top 14.

English seam to be wanting a French/English cup, (if France just expand Top 14, will Prem be expanded? [ you can start another tread if you want to discuss it])

But what will the Pro 12 teams do?

I can see a number of options.

1) its been raised before that the Pro 12 teams could create a cup with the SA super XV teams,
Would his make up money wise for the H-Cup? would it be popular, both here and in SA?

2) Expand PRO 12 to the USA, if USA Rugby could finance 2 franchises, and centrally contact the main US players, they could become very good, very quickly and create a very big market. There a ready a number of good US players.

Think about the interest Leinster (or any Irish province) would create playing in New York or Boston. But likewise they have big Scottish and Italian (I'm sure theres loads of Welsh there to) communities.

Each team would travel over and do a two team Tour.

Could open up a big market and develop Rugby in the USA.

3) Have a Celtic cup and invite teams like Bucharest Wolves, VVA-Podmoskovye Monino, SC 1880 Frankfurt, and the Wild Rugby Academy, to take part.

4) Expand Pro 12 to have an extra Scottish, Italian and Welsh side in it

1) No and No. There was some vague talk of the saffers coming in who at least are in a similar time zone, but without the Franglos no chance of that.
2) possibly the most realistic but would take a huge rethinking of the way the league is structured and couldnt be done overnight. The US might struggle to attract its best players back "home" too.
3) Just embaressing. these clubs get humped in the losers cup as it is, one of the existing complaints against the current structure. bringing them through to the top HC level would make it a complete joke. they would also take money out rather than put money into the shares of Ireland and Wales.
4) And who would fund these? They are barely able to support 2 as it is.

Still logjam I see. Oh well, only to be expected.

Hurry up though guys, we want the 606 White paper on the future of European club/provincial/regional rugby to be at the ERC head office by sun up tomorrow.

I think two teams should be selected at random from the whole group of eligible teams. Then they have a game and the winner wins the Cup. Easy.

It's quite interesting to consider other possibilities if Europe does fall through. What I am interested to know is if the English clubs have only sold the home games their teams are involved in, or have they taken the liberty of selling their away games too and any away games in the knockout stages English clubs might be involved in? If so they have basically taken away the rights of all the other 5 Nations teams.

Additionally it has been made very clear in the past the Celtic Nations have made it clear they will only deal with terrestrial TV.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0915/1224324046581.html

Shifty wrote:It's quite interesting to consider other possibilities if Europe does fall through. What I am interested to know is if the English clubs have only sold the home games their teams are involved in, or have they taken the liberty of selling their away games too and any away games in the knockout stages English clubs might be involved in? If so they have basically taken away the rights of all the other 5 Nations teams.

Additionally it has been made very clear in the past the Celtic Nations have made it clear they will only deal with terrestrial TV.

The reports of exactly what was sold are confusing. Some say games involving English teams. Some say games in England. I have a feeling that it's just the English home games.

Regarding the celtic unions only dealing with terrestrial TV. Do you mean free-to-air? If so how do you explain the Sky deal?

Feckless Rogue wrote:http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0915/1224324046581.html

That's a pretty good article. Lays it out quite clearly. About the only thing I disagree with is that the RFU saying they haven't given European TV control to the Premiership doesn't they won't. I think this is too good an opportunity for the RFU to get something from the PRL for them to let go.

But as written, the real fun starts on Tuesday

HammerofThunor wrote:

What Pot Hale posted was the suggested proposition from the PRO12 Unions. Not the demands of the PRL. As far as I'm aware the PRL haven't made any demands. That was a French proposal that they said they backed.

No - it's not a proposition from the PRO 12 unions. It's a proposal from the IRFU, backed by the WRU.

The PRL have said specifically that they want a top 6 from each league along with the previous winners.

The Irish proposal is for an 8, 6, 6 with no previous winners automatically involved.

Pot Hale wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

What Pot Hale posted was the suggested proposition from the PRO12 Unions. Not the demands of the PRL. As far as I'm aware the PRL haven't made any demands. That was a French proposal that they said they backed.

No - it's not a proposition from the PRO 12 unions. It's a proposal from the IRFU, backed by the WRU.

The PRL have said specifically that they want a top 6 from each league along with the previous winners.

The Irish proposal is for an 8, 6, 6 with no previous winners automatically involved.

OK. That makes it more interesting because you would think the biggest 'losers' in this would be the Italian and Scots.

What I think would be reasonable, from my own selfish and biased view point, would be 8 from PRO12, 5 from Jeff and 5 from T14. Winner of 2nd tier and winner of 1st tier also qualified (or extra place for their league if already qualified). Both extra places can come from the same league. In addition each union has guaranteed qualification for one team. The ACC will also need restructuring. There would be between 4 PRO12 teams, 7 Premiership teams and 9 French teams (less two winner spots) so 18 teams. Add in the 3rd tier winner and maybe some more. OF course a big problem with the 3rd tier is that it would spread from Siberia to Portugal. That's a lot of travelling expenses. I don't know. They'll just have to come with that bit without my help.

SA isn't leaving the Super XV.

Besides that when will this tournament take place?

I think some people think that the noises South Africa makes every time the S15 is up for review are serious moves to get in with the Europeans.

The proposed competition would take place in the time it takes for a unicorn's tear to hit the ground.

Well if the alledged proposal by the IRFU and backed by the WRU is true then thats a sad day for all the celtic nations. There must be very little back bone in Dublin or Cardiff these days! To concede to just about what the Eng Fre want early on means we are in a position of absolutely no power at all, and next time the deadline rolls around they'll want more of the pot etc...

If this proposal has been put forward you might as well put a line through the competition as a competition. It'll put a strangle hold on the Rabo and make the league the 'bitch' of europe.

I say if the Eng Fre want a change, it's up to them to make that change within their own systems to become more competitive, otherwise they can both go off together, of which I am sure that they will target introduction of the Irish teams ASAP and expect the others to fall into place (into their comp with their rules)

The WRU must now be exploring options, including moving back to the fully proffessional prem!!!

HammerofThunor wrote:The reports of exactly what was sold are confusing. Some say games involving English teams. Some say games in England. I have a feeling that it's just the English home games.

Regarding the celtic unions only dealing with terrestrial TV. Do you mean free-to-air? If so how do you explain the Sky deal?

The vast bulk of Welsh european games are on Terrestrial tv, it's only when a Welsh team plays an English one you MIGHT get it on sky, though Ospreys V Saracens is the only one I'm aware of that was on sky last season.

Looking at it in theory you could have a 20 team league provided you scrapped Europe your domestic league and the LV Cup. There are 38 club weekend games excluding the 2 weeks pre-season. Though these 38 weeks include all play offs etc.

Don't be at all suprised to see the Welsh break ranks over this deal, we have already been thrown out of the Rabo direct league once for joining the LV Cup behind the back of the other Celtic teams. The truth is the Welsh teams would walk from the Rabo tomorrow if the English offered them place in the Aviva.

Is this a new thing Shifty (Welsh HEC games being on S4C)? It certainly wasn't the case a few years ago when I was living in Wales. The ACC games when the Dragons were in it were televised. I remember when they played Clemont. I don't understand how this can be the case though as the TV rights were controlled by the ERC and sold as a block to Sky (I thought).

Welsh games go all over the place to s4c and the bbc, though I think s4c might now be run by the bbc.

I know the BBC produce Welsh language programmes as part of its mandate to the Welsh language. I think these are now shown on S4C. I've got a feeling they produce the rugby show on there as well but not sure (I would have thought it would still be called Scrum V in Welsh so maybe not)

Shifty wrote:

Don't be at all suprised to see the Welsh break ranks over this deal, we have already been thrown out of the Rabo direct league once for joining the LV Cup behind the back of the other Celtic teams. The truth is the Welsh teams would walk from the Rabo tomorrow if the English offered them place in the Aviva.

Break ranks from whom? There are no ranks in the ERC, there are six individual unions with their own objectives and agendas.

I think everyone will settle for the reduction in teams. This means more money for English and French teams since they have a bigger percentage of teams in the competition. The Pro 12 nations should not let the English French bully them.

I'm not sure what all the talk of the Amlin cup is about. The French say there needs to be a greater mix of nations in it to create more interest. That could be true or it could be a further attempt to reduce the number of Rabo teams in the HEC.

A third tier competition sounds like a good idea. Maybe have an East/West split and the winners face off at the seasons end.

As for the Pro 12, theres plenty of options. At the moment the competition is getting better. I'd like to see an attempt to introduce a second level Pro 12 with teams from Belgium, Germany etc and after a few seasons introduce a promotion/relegation system. That would boost the game in Europe and give the pro 12 an extra dimension. I'd be against adding more than 12 teams to the league because teams would need to rotate more.

Shifty wrote:
The vast bulk of Welsh european games are on Terrestrial tv, it's only when a Welsh team plays an English one you MIGHT get it on sky, though Ospreys V Saracens is the only one I'm aware of that was on sky last season.

Sky have had exclusive rights to live HC games in the UK & Ireland for years, S4/C only get to show the highlights. They do however have the rights to show some Amlin games.

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/matchcentre/fixtures_heineken_cup.php?includeref=411&season=2012-2013&round=1

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/matchcentre/amlin_challenge_cup_fixtures.php?includeref=480&season=2012-2013&round=1

Feckless Rogue wrote:

whocares wrote:if the Heineken cup disapear, am pretty sure another sort of european competition will be created. probably the kronenburg 1664 cup : 16 teams , 64 games !

I agree. The French and English don't want an Anglo/French/Cup. They want a European Cup which benefits them more. If they kill the HC (and I'm increasingly starting to think that they will), they'll set up up a new tournament, and will turn around to the 4 other nations and say "You're welcome to join. These are our entry requirements and this is how the money is divided up".

If tbhey do that the other unions will refuse to join I am sure. thats what has happened every time the english have tried to do tis sort of thing.

I think if the english leave the cup and I am pretty sure the french will not - then I would inviter some of the minor national teams to play in it - portugal. romania, maybe gorgia ( or would they be too good?) spain etc.

TJ wrote:I think if the english leave the cup and I am pretty sure the french will not - then I would inviter some of the minor national teams to play in it - portugal. romania, maybe gorgia ( or would they be too good?) spain etc.

Im sure the Franglo clubs would be happy to release the players

that would be an issue Peter but I do think it would be the best way to spread rugby