Scarlets vs Ospreys - THE BIG DERBY TEAMS ANNOUNCED and live match-day thread

by Smirnoffpriest Tue 18 Sep 2012, 11:11 am

First topic message reminder :

RaboDirect Pro12: Scarlets v Ospreys
Venue: Parc y Scarlets, LlanelliDate: Friday, 21 September
Kick-off: 19:05 BST
TEAMS ANNOUNCED

Scarlets team v Ospreys Friday 21st September 2012, Parc y Scarlets kick-off 7.05pm:
15 Liam Williams, 14 George North, 13 Jonathan Davies, 12 Scott Williams, 11 Andy Fenby, 10 Rhys Priestland, 9 Tavis Knoyle, 1 Phil John, 2 Ken Owens, 3 Deacon Manu, 4 George Earle, 5 Richard Kelly, 6 Aaron Shingler, 7 Josh Turnbull, 8 Rob McCusker (capt).
Replacements:
16 Matthew Rees, 17 Peter Edwards, 18 Samson Lee, 19 Sione Timani, 20 Johnathan Edwards, 21 Gareth Davies, 22 Aled Thomas, 23 Gareth Maule.

Ospreys15 Richard Fussell 14 Hanno Dirksen 13 Tom Isaacs 12 Andrew Bishop 11 Tom Grabham 10 Dan Biggar 9 Kahn Fotuali'i 1 Duncan Jones 2 Richard Hibbard 3 Aaron Jarvis 4 Alun Wyn Jones (Capt) 5 Ian Evans 6 George Stowers 7 Justin Tipuric 8 Joe Bearman
REPLACEMENTS
16 Scott Baldwin 17 Ryan Bevington 18 Joe Rees 19 Jonathan Thomas 20 Ryan Jones 21 Rhys Webb 22 Matthew Morgan 23 Jonathan Spratt

Ospreys coach Steve Tandy is hoping his players use the occasion of Friday's Welsh derby at Scarlets to put a dismal start to the season behind them.
But Tandy hopes the 21 September clash with unbeaten west Wales rivals Scarlets will provide a turning point.
"We've always performed in derbies, we're a pretty proud bunch and I know that they'll be hurting," said Tandy.
"So there's probably no better game for us than going down to the Scarlets and hopfully prove a point... really show that we are still a decent team, and get those basic areas of our game right.

An opening defeat away at Treviso - Ospreys' first loss to an Italian side - was followed by a home loss to Ulster and then another humbling at their Liberty Stadium home by Glasgow.

Scarlets' start to the season, in contrast to Ospreys, has been impressive and the Parc y Scarlets side sit unbeaten at the top of the Pro12 table with victories over Leinster, Glasgow and Connacht.

PS - THERE MAY BE A TRIBUTE TO NEVIN, GRAHAM AND NOEL SPENCE. I am unsure of the details but have heard that the crowd and announcer may sing Stand Up for the Ulstermen before the Scarlets/Ospreys game.

Could anyone with more/definate information comment please?

by Morgannwg Sat 22 Sep 2012, 5:39 pm

Not really a fan of cards or citings after local derbies as the niggly stuff is expected. Interesting, I wonder if Ospreys will be that motivated in europe? They'll be up against two very similar teams to themselves in Toulouse and Leicester.

by sheephead Sat 22 Sep 2012, 6:52 pm

A lot being mentioned about "niggley stuff". I think the reason there weren't anymore yellow cards was that both teams were as bad as each other. George ain't no angel. He loves to try and wind people up, rub or slap of the head throwing or pulling someone that little extra when already in touch. Sooner or later someone will give you a clip. Its a big boys game. Liam Williams likes to do the same. Before anyone says it, im not saying the ospreys were angels either.

by HammerofThunor Sat 22 Sep 2012, 8:18 pm

George ain't no angle

He certainly isn't. Even though he was born in Norfolk.

by sheephead Sat 22 Sep 2012, 8:27 pm

Ahh =P typing on my phone. Cheers for pointing it out thunor =D

by glamorganalun Sat 22 Sep 2012, 9:10 pm

Just watched the Blues game it was so poor compared to the intensity of the game last night, the blues when they go ahead they go to sleep and then find it difficult to get back in the game. Well done Scarlets and Ospreys for providing an all action exciting game for the rest of Wales to enjoy.

PS Good crowd and the pitch looked very good (last year is was terrible).

by HammerofThunor Sat 22 Sep 2012, 9:15 pm

Good that the Blues crowds have improved. The fans owe them now they've moved back

by Ifandorbut Sat 22 Sep 2012, 10:38 pm

Yet again, a ref decides the outcome of a game.

The Ospreys came with a game plan and executed it better than they could ever have imagined they would have been allowed to do so. I do hope some citings come from the game as, handbags apart some of their actions were pure thuggery, not rugby.

That off my chest. Their forwards really worked hard yesterday and deserve their corn.

Iaob

by Guest Sun 23 Sep 2012, 5:04 pm

For Stag, here's two gif's of the incident on Fenby:

http://prem1.hiboox.com/images/3812/diapof62b5b3d9c0a503c9f02d457cff4a2a5.gif

http://prem1.hiboox.com/images/3812/diapo5db01f0d8b4f8eb1c734114488cb5b64.gif

Second one looks a lot worse to me.

by wayne Sun 23 Sep 2012, 5:21 pm

rugbydreamer wrote:For Stag, here's two gif's of the incident on Fenby:

http://prem1.hiboox.com/images/3812/diapof62b5b3d9c0a503c9f02d457cff4a2a5.gif

http://prem1.hiboox.com/images/3812/diapo5db01f0d8b4f8eb1c734114488cb5b64.gif

Second one looks a lot worse to me.

RD, you really are picking at straws, is GS arm movement any different in the number of strides to get to AF as in the tackle, IMO NO, half a stride earlier AF is over a foot higher and GS would be hitting him in the midriff, no mention of Sanjay's pullback then, or Georgies knock on over the line.
If you bothered to go on the Os website you have Scarlet supporters like Once a Monkey, Scarlet Al, Scarlet Rover and a few others saying the much better team won and were not blaming foul play for your defeat.

by Guest Sun 23 Sep 2012, 5:26 pm

Wow. You clearly haven't read any of my other posts then fully crediting the O's for their win, stating they got their tactics spot on, and also acknowledging the Scarlets could have seen a yellow too? (not all posts are on this thread btw).

I was discussing the foul play on Fenby that should have resulted in a PT. Stag hadn't seen any of the match so I've just provided clips.

Also, I can't believe you think that a swinging arm, with a clenched fist smack into the face of a player is acceptable. Stowers made absolutely no attempt to tackle properly, that was a swinging arm and nothing else. Foul play my friend.

by Casartelli Sun 23 Sep 2012, 5:43 pm

Punching someone in the face is a well proven way of getting someone to drop the ball over the line. I've seen it done on, well, numerous ... actually it's never been done before, but that doesn't mean Stowers wasn't aiming for the head rather than the BALL. He may have invented a new technique - been working on it for months.

Alternatively, maybe if Fenby had half-decent hand-eye co-ordination and hadn't tried juggling the ball 7 times before diving, he'd have scored comfortably and Stowers would have flown 18 inches over the top of him...

...rugby's like that.

by wayne Sun 23 Sep 2012, 5:49 pm

rugbydreamer wrote:Wow. You clearly haven't read any of my other posts then fully crediting the O's for their win, stating they got their tactics spot on, and also acknowledging the Scarlets could have seen a yellow too? (not all posts are on this thread btw).

I was discussing the foul play on Fenby that should have resulted in a PT. Stag hadn't seen any of the match so I've just provided clips.

Also, I can't believe you think that a swinging arm, with a clenched fist smack into the face of a player is acceptable. Stowers made absolutely no attempt to tackle properly, that was a swinging arm and nothing else. Foul play my friend.

His arm caught him not his fist, and as I said his arm movement does not alter in the strides up to or in the tackle, and the height of AF determined where he was tackled, that was just unfortunate IMO, no malice and no yellow warranted.

by Guest Sun 23 Sep 2012, 5:53 pm

A swinging arm is foul play Wayne, he made no attempt to wrap his arms around as in an actual tackle. Intent isn't a factor, it was reckless and foul play. Should have been a yellow and PT.

Not saying that's the reason we lost btw. 9 mins to go and it was 9-9 and we'd left 12 points go begging with missed kicks. That was far more of a factor on our loss.

by wayne Sun 23 Sep 2012, 6:08 pm

rugbydreamer wrote:A swinging arm is foul play Wayne, he made no attempt to wrap his arms around as in an actual tackle. Intent isn't a factor, it was reckless and foul play. Should have been a yellow and PT.

Not saying that's the reason we lost btw. 9 mins to go and it was 9-9 and we'd left 12 points go begging with missed kicks. That was far more of a factor on our loss.

So it wasn't a fist? as I've mentioned twice his arm movement hasn't changed in the strides up to or in the tackle, that was just the normal motion of somebody trying to get to the man as quickly as possible, if AF had put the ball down on the line this wouldn't have happened, it was just unfortunate IMO.
No I agree that wasn't the reason you lost this game.

by Guest Sun 23 Sep 2012, 6:11 pm

That makes it worse then wayne that he's premeditated to lead with a swinging arm and make no attempt of actually completing a tackle.

by wayne Sun 23 Sep 2012, 6:22 pm

rugbydreamer wrote:That makes it worse then wayne that he's premeditated to lead with a swinging arm and make no attempt of actually completing a tackle.

As a former athlete and coach you swing your arms to correspond with your legs to increase or sustain speed, that is what GS did, I'm obviously not going to change your opinion on this so this will be the end of this topic for me.
As to the reasons for your loss yes RPs ineptitude is a factor, our rejects scrum half contributed but the main reason was the hiding your boys took in the close knit exchanges especially at scrum time.

by Guest Sun 23 Sep 2012, 6:26 pm

a hiding yet it was 9-9 with 9 mins to go? yes okay. Your pack was definitely better but it wasn't a hiding.

And I am honestly just completely baffled that you think a forearm smash to the face is acceptable. It doesn't matter if it wasn't deliberate, it was up to GS to adjust and he didn't.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree

by Casartelli Sun 23 Sep 2012, 6:35 pm

Assuming Stowers doesn't have a masters in biomechanics, and a backroom staff that studied, analysed and predicted Fenby's tendency to bobble up forward pop passes 2m from the line, then we can assume the Ospreys No.6 was just piling into a collision to stop a try. The same thing that happens several times a game and hundreds of times every season.

Don't recall Llanelli fans making any fuss when Deacon Manu tried to rearrange Henson's face with his shoulder???

by Guest Sun 23 Sep 2012, 6:42 pm

That's because he didn't Casartelli.

Henson suffered a fractured cheekbone after an accidental clash of heads with Adam Warren. London Welsh even released a statement on it. Best get your facts right mate Smile

by Smirnoffpriest Sun 23 Sep 2012, 7:29 pm

good luck with that dreamer - not much hope...

by 2ndtimeround Sun 23 Sep 2012, 8:11 pm

1st time I've seen a replay of that forearm smash and that is exactly what it was, if Stowers is not cited for that then I will be amazed.

by sheephead Sun 23 Sep 2012, 8:15 pm

I think he should and will be cited. I think I could give him the benefit of the doubt on intent. You see it quite regularly, players trying to hit the ball out of hand with a short arm tackle. Think his prior record may stand against him mind.

by Casartelli Sun 23 Sep 2012, 8:34 pm

rugbydreamer wrote:That's because he didn't Casartelli.

Henson suffered a fractured cheekbone after an accidental clash of heads with Adam Warren. London Welsh even released a statement on it. Best get your facts right mate

I think you'll find my facts were arrow straight, 'mate'. I didn't say he did rearrange Henson's face, I said he tried to. I was making no reference whatsoever to the 'accidental' clash of heads later in the LW game. Deacon Manu charged Henson with a shoulder (making no attempt to wrap his arms) in the opening seconds of the LW match.

It's disappointing that most people on here were commenting about how good a battle this game was, until the comments started about 'thuggery', the referee and Stowers' 'dangerous' tackle.

In fairness to the Ospreys fans, they could have pointed out that it was far more dangerous for the Scarlets to field two props, Manu and Lee, who'd struggle to scrummage effectively in an U-16s game - but they showed good grace in their victory.

by Guest Sun 23 Sep 2012, 8:36 pm

Manu didn't go anywhere near Henson's face Cas, so not quite sure what comparison you are trying to make?

The rest of your post is just coming across as pretty childish tbh.

by Guest Sun 23 Sep 2012, 8:40 pm

Just seen this on another forum:

George Stowers, the Ospreys wing forward, has been cited under Law 10.4(a) by the independent RaboDirect Citing Commissioner appointed for the match between Scarlets and Ospreys at Parc y Scarlets on Friday. The incident for which the player has been cited took place in the 22ndminute of the first half. The hearing, before an independent RaboDirectPRO12 Disciplinary Committee, will take place later in the week, with time and venue to be confirmed.”

Law 10.4 deals with Dangerous Play & Misconduct and 10.4 (a) states “A player must not strike an opponent with the fist or arm, including the elbow, shoulder, head or knee(s)”

by Casartelli Sun 23 Sep 2012, 8:50 pm

Manu and Mark Jones both conceded there had been contact (see attached link). All sides accepted that it was not deliberate, that it had not caused the injury and that the penalty was the right call.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-in-wales/2012/08/29/scarlets-insist-deacon-manu-not-at-fault-over-gavin-henson-injury-91466-31716038/

Same goes for the Stowers tackle. He was defending his line and threw himself into contact - same as you see time after time in almost every game, every season. There was no way he could have, or would have had reason to, aim a forearm into the attacker's face.

by Guest Sun 23 Sep 2012, 8:55 pm

Never said he aimed it deliberately Cas, just that that's what happened and that it was reckless and still counted as foul play. Looks like the citing commissioner agrees with me.

by ScarletSpiderman Mon 24 Sep 2012, 8:54 am

To be honest the worst offender for the niggle/nasty as TIpuric IMO. He had a few digs in at people on the deck, but it was the football style lunge at Laim Williams legs after the ball had been kicked that annoyed me. IMO he is very luck it didn't connect as it would have been a pretty hefty ban if it had.

by Higher_Ground Mon 24 Sep 2012, 9:31 am

If you want to see a nasty piece of work in action, have a look at Liam Williams' swinging arm into the face of Dan Biggar as he attempts to 'clear him out' of the ruck just before Andy Fenby's effort to score.
If you taped (old school) scrum v last night you can see it. He's a young man who needs to show a bit more ability before deciding he's going to go down the hard man route as well.

by Higher_Ground Mon 24 Sep 2012, 9:36 am

By the way, I thought Stowers' tackle on Fenby was unacceptable also. Defending his line or not.

by HERSH Mon 24 Sep 2012, 10:10 am

The Ref's & TMO should be struck off.

by ScarletSpiderman Mon 24 Sep 2012, 10:25 am

Higher_Ground wrote:By the way, I thought Stowers' tackle on Fenby was unacceptable also. Defending his line or not.

To be honest, and I may well be alone here, I am undecided if it was actually as bad as it is being made out. If he were a second or so quicker it would have been a swinging arm connecting with the ball, and punching it free from Fenby's arms, which would have been a very solid bit of denfensive work.

Liam Williams was a bit on the aggressive side, but I guess when you have been targeted yourself from the get go (tipuric scuffle on the floor, the soccer tackle etc) you will be aggressive yourself. Personally I think there should have been a good two or three cards in the first half, or even first 20 mins to calm the game down, and save it from becoming the scrappy affair it became. As I said a few incidents from Tipuric, Dirkson and Kahn for the Ospreys and a few from Turnbull, Knoyle and Williams from the Scarlets.

by ScarletSpiderman Mon 24 Sep 2012, 11:47 am

Stowers has officially been cited

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19697872

Also on the rumour mill Leighton Hodges has been invited to have a bit of a pow-wow with the WRU about his performance during the game, and regarding his interactions with assistant refereees.

by sheephead Mon 24 Sep 2012, 12:18 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Stowers has officially been cited

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19697872

Also on the rumour mill Leighton Hodges has been invited to have a bit of a pow-wow with the WRU about his performance during the game, and regarding his interactions with assistant refereees.

Is this down to the WRU wanting to protect their added investment or the scarlets throwing their toys out of the pram?

by ScarletSpiderman Mon 24 Sep 2012, 12:22 pm

sheephead wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:Stowers has officially been cited

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19697872

Also on the rumour mill Leighton Hodges has been invited to have a bit of a pow-wow with the WRU about his performance during the game, and regarding his interactions with assistant refereees.

Is this down to the WRU wanting to protect their added investment or the scarlets throwing their toys out of the pram?

Which bit? I am assuming the citing is down to the fact that there is a reasonable amount of people who believe it was dangerous and unfair play. As for the being called up to the WRU, I think that it is standard practice for Refs to have to review their games periodically, and Hodges has a history of wanting to run things his way with the assistant refs being linesmen and not assistant refs. So I would assume it is the WRU wanting to try and convince him he should take advice off others.

by sheephead Mon 24 Sep 2012, 12:31 pm

scarlet: Hodges not happy with help from the sides then?

by sheephead Mon 24 Sep 2012, 12:33 pm

just read my last post. Not meaning to sound sarcastic. Sorry if it did =D

by ScarletSpiderman Mon 24 Sep 2012, 12:33 pm

sheephead wrote:scarlet: Hodges not happy with help from the sides then?

From what I have seen, in this match and others he has officiated (not just Scarlets matches), he does tend to ignore the flags from his assistants and go on his opinion of what happened, but that is my opinion.

by sheephead Mon 24 Sep 2012, 12:35 pm

You tend not to see the flags whilst watching tv. Did anyone there notice the linesman flagging being ignored?

by maestegmafia Mon 24 Sep 2012, 1:06 pm

There was a lot of comment during the game that the ref was ignoring the TJs...?

Re Stowers, if he is cited so be it, if he isn't I would like to see the Oslreys take some action. We did fly in with some stupid tackles. I am surprised Khan wasn't cited too.

We have had far too much bad and unnecessary behaviour already this season.

by Guest Mon 24 Sep 2012, 1:48 pm

For me, I didn't see the AR's flag anything, but whenever a scuffle broke out they were talking into their mike's. Ref never seemed to respond to that, but then I don't know what they were saying.

by ScarletSpiderman Mon 24 Sep 2012, 1:52 pm

rugbydreamer wrote:For me, I didn't see the AR's flag anything, but whenever a scuffle broke out they were talking into their mike's. Ref never seemed to respond to that, but then I don't know what they were saying.

My bad choice of words there. I meant he appeared to be ignoring the input of his assistants, when I said ignoring their flags. If I remember right he only ever had a talk with his assistants once when there was the scuffle after the Ospreys won the pen, and then Dirkson and Kahn took things into their own hands. I am not sure what was said but it seemed that the ref was not exactly paying much attention from where I sat, and other than that time it appeared to me that they were being ignored totally to me.

by Seagultaf Mon 24 Sep 2012, 7:48 pm

The best team won without any doubt, the Ospreys pack really bullied the Scarlets 8. Unfortunately they crossed the line with some pretty unsavoury antics and the Ref was too weak to deal with it.

Stowers should have been carded for his hit on Fenby and who knows how a 7 point lead for the Scarlets would have affected the fragile Osprets confidence? Also how could he bin Lee for his first offence when the scrum before the Ospreys had been penalised?

My biggest concern is for the return fixture at the Liberty, the Scarlets will have their saffas available and they will have a point to prove. The last thing Welsh rugby needs is an all our war with the bulk of the 6 nations squad on the field.

by Smirnoffpriest Mon 24 Sep 2012, 8:03 pm

+1 couldn't agree more

by glamorganalun Tue 25 Sep 2012, 10:19 am

I can't wait for the return match, I wish all games has half the spice of this game, I watched the Blues game and I thought it was poor I was only watching with one eye while on this forum.

by Higher_Ground Tue 25 Sep 2012, 1:18 pm

To be honest, a bit of pushing and shoving aside, I don't really think it was that nasty a game. Stowers' tackle was unacceptable, but I don't think there was malice involved. After the 'they genuinely must be playing this badly for
some sort of bet' debacle of the Blues v Dragons, it was pleasing to see a couple of teams who looked like they actually gave a sh**.

by Smirnoffpriest Tue 25 Sep 2012, 1:57 pm

It seemed plenty dirty from the stands, with lots of niggles 3 high tackles and Dirksens 'judo trip' together with Scott Williams having an Ospreys player on the floor and JD2 giving a bit of afters.

by ScarletSpiderman Tue 25 Sep 2012, 2:00 pm

Higher_Ground wrote:To be honest, a bit of pushing and shoving aside, I don't really think it was that nasty a game. Stowers' tackle was unacceptable, but I don't think there was malice involved. After the 'they genuinely must be playing this badly for
some sort of bet' debacle of the Blues v Dragons, it was pleasing to see a couple of teams who looked like they actually gave a sh**.

I think from the sounds of it the Beeb did a good job of not showing the dirty/nasty on tv. But yeah your right there is no arguing that hte game meant a lot to both sets of players and fans (sadly not to the officials).

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