Aviva Premiership Round 4 Preview

First topic message reminder :

Friday 21st September

Sale Sharks v London Welsh, Salford City Stadium, Salford 20:00 local

Sale Team: 15Rob Miller,14 Tom Brady,13 Johnny Leota,12 Sam Tuitupou,11 Mark Cueto,10 Danny Cipriani,9 Dwayne Peel,1 Eifion Roberts,2 Joe Ward,3 Vadim Cobilas,4 Richie Gray,5 Kearnan Myall,6 Mark Easter,7 David Seymour,8 Andy Powell

16 Tommy Taylor, 17 Ross Harrison, 18 Tony Buckley, 19 Fraser McKenzie,20 Richie Vernon, 21 Will Cliff, 22 Nick Macleod, 23 Corne Uys

London Welsh Team: 15 Tom Arscott, 14 Phil MacKenzie,13 Sonny Parker,12 Hudson Tonga'uiha,11 Nick Scott,10Gordon Ross,9 Tyson Keats,1 Franck Montanella,2 Neil Briggs,3 Paulica Ion,4 Jonathan Mills,5 Matt Corker,6 Daniel Browne,7 Mike Hills,8 Ed Jackson

16 Dan George,17 Tom Bristow,18 Arthur Joly,19 Kirill Kulemin,20 Ed Williamson,21 Nick Runciman,22 Ryan Davis,23 Seb Jewell


Saturday 22nd September

London Irish v Bath Rugby, Madejski Stadium, Reading 15:00 local

London Irish Team: 15. Tom Homer; 14. Topsy Ojo*13. Jonathan Joseph*; 12. Steven Shingler; 11. Marland Yarde 10. Ian Humphreys; 9. Tomás O’Leary*; 1. Max Lahiff; 2. Scott Lawson*; 3. Halani Aulika*; 4. Bryn Evans; 5. Matt Garvey; 6. Declan Danaher (Captain); 7. Jamie Gibson; 8. Ofisa Treviranus*

16. David Paice*; 17. Jerry Yanuyanutawa*; 18. Alan Cotter; 19. George Skivington; 20. Jon Fisher; 21. Anthony Watson; 22. Shane Geraghty*; 23. Jack Moates

Northampton Saints v Worcester Warriors, Franklin's Gardens, Northampton 15:00 local

Gloucester Rugby v London Wasps, Kingsholm, Gloucester 15:15 local

Gloucester Team: Rob Cook; Jonny May, Henry Trinder, Billy Twelvetrees, James Simpson-Daniel; Freddie Burns, Dan Robson; Nick Wood, Darren Dawidiuk, Rupert Harden; Tom Savage, Jim Hamilton (capt); Sione Kalamafoni, Andy Hazell, Ben Morgan

Huia Edmonds, Dan Murphy, Shaun Knight, Will James, Akapusi Qera, Dave Lewis, Mike Tindall, Martyn Thomas

Wasps Team: 15 Tommy Bell14 Tom Varndell13 Elliot Daly12 Andrea Masi11 Christian Wade10 Stephen Jones9 Joe Simpson1 Tim Payne2 T Rhys Thomas3 Zak Taulafo4 Tom Palmer5 Marco Wentzel (c)6 James Haskell7 Jonathan Poff8 Ashley Johnson

16 Tom Lindsay17 Simon McIntyre18 Fabio Staibano19 James Cannon20 Billy Vunipola21 Charlie Davies22 Nick Robinson23 Jack Wallace


Leicester Tigers v Harlequins, Welford Road, Leicester 17:30 local

Leicester Tigers Team: 15 Scott Hamilton 14 Niall Morris 13 Matt Smith 12 Anthony Allen 11 Vereniki Goneva 10 Toby Flood 9 Sam Harrison 1 Boris Stankovich 2 Tom Youngs 3 Martin Castrogiovanni 4 Graham Kitchener 5 Geoff Parling 6 Steve Mafi 7 Julian Salvi 8 Jordan Crane (c)

16 George Chuter 17 Dan Cole 18 Logovii Mulipola 19 Rob Andrew 20 Thomas Waldrom 21 Patrick Phibbs 22 George Ford 23 Adam Thompstone


Harlequins Team: 15. Mike Brown14. Tom Williams13. Matt Hopper12. Jordan Turner Hall11. Ugo Monye10. Nick Evans9. Danny Care1. Joe Marler2. Joe Gray3. James Johnston4. Olly Kohn5. George Robson6. Maurie Fa'asavalu7. Chris Robshaw ©8. Nick Easter

16. Rob Buchanan17. Darryl Marfo18. Will Collier19. Charlie Matthews20. Tom Guest21. Karl Dickson22. Rory Clegg23. Ross Chisholm


Sunday 23rd September

Exeter Chiefs v Saracens, Sandy Park 14:15 local, 13:15 GMT

Some interesting match ups this weekend, i'll post teams when they're put up by the clubs.

All over at the Madejski, 29-22 final score, Irish put their first points on the board and Bath will be in real trouble when Barkley goes.

1 try is just not good enough with all the second half possession Bath had, this could be another season of mediocrity for the BB&W.

Twelvetrees lacked consistency at Tigers GF, much of that was put down to his lack of game time, I guess we'll see this season which is the real 36.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Get in!!!

Off the bottom of the table. That is a massive win for us and with players coming back from injuries/suspensions hopefully can kickstart our season.

Yeah, hopefully that will be the turning point for you, could have left it 'till next week though bud. Congrats.

Cheers PJ, Worcester away next week, which won't be easy, but is a game that we need to win really.

Best of luck for the season bud.

Yeah...but he's been very interesting today.

Burns very good aswell...the last twenty mins he's been simply outstanding...both with boot tactically...and running with ball...

Looks like Quins are going to take the spoils at Welford Road. Will be a massive win for them that.

Come on boys!

i have no finger nails left .................

Bloody hell, well done Quins!

We needed that win, will have given us a massive confidence boost.

Hope all the injured players are alright. Amazing commitment in that second half to not give leicester an inch.

Shame about the injuries, possible broken leg by the looks of it on Chisholm (hope that's wrong) and AC on JTH= usually not good! Impressed that we won given how out of position are backs were at the end

Yes 2 cracking games yesterday Gloucester v Wasps & Tigers v Quins.

All 4 teams played with attacking intent with skill and accuracy most of the time.

I was impressed with Burns control and his kicking at times for field position was superb. Our (Wasps) scrum got pinged a few times in the second half which lost us much needed momentum. But we are moving in the right direction & a top 6 spot must be our aim this season.
I thought Joe Simpson could have had a try with the quick tap penalty on another day but on the whole Glaws deserved the win.

Quins showed what a class outfit they are and I hope the injuries aren't too bad. Chisholms position when injured looked awful & I would think he ruptured some knee ligaments unfortunately.
I definitely think Tigers missed their game breakers Ben Young, Manu & Murphy at full back. But then why should anyone be sympathetic to the Tigers losing a few players now and again ;-)
Great match up Cole & Marler, Robson & Parling ( I thought Robson shone there!)

To me, Wasps certainly seem to be moving in the right direction. I suppose the questions are about whether they can sutain or build on the current performances, and about depth.

I think they have caught some teams surprised about their attacking style. That won't be the case all season, and they will need to adapt somewhat as things go. Combining some traditional Wasps grit with this attacking style would make for some real entertaining matches.

I think another factor is match fitness for Wasps. We were definitely undercooked at the start - faded badly against Quins in our first game. This fitness is now getting there.
Yesterday Haskell & Poff had average games & unfortunately Launcbury took a knock in the week.
We missed Southwell at FB to but Tommy Bell gained some good experience & scored a mighty pen from inside our own half.

Well done Exeter. Can we stop Superbru now please

Exeter v Sarries is awful.

Farrell's distribution is terrible, he really needs to go back to the training ground and start with the basics. Wy is he unable to pass in front of the man??

Only watched bits and pieces of today's match. I don't think Saracens have scored a Try in their last two matches. A disturbing trend for Sarries supporters, I would think.

I was pretty surprised Farrell made the mental error of not touching the ball down afteran Exeter punt for distance which rolled over the goal line. Strange match overall, but for sure not one of this season's better matches. I would think both Exeter and Sarries need to turn things up a bit or both will be in some trouble.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
Great match up Cole & Marler, Robson & Parling ( I thought Robson shone there!)

I've been pretty impressed with Robson so far this season. I've seen him criticised for his size a fair bit on this forum (despite being the same size as Parling), but from the number of games I've seen he's been highly effective for Quins, carrying the ball up well, getting stuck in at the breakdown and runs the best lineout in the league.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
Great match up Cole & Marler,

[/quote]

I thought Marler had the better of Castro, but struggled with Cole.

Just consider how unthinkable Marler getting the better of Castrogiovanni in the scrum would have been 12 months ago!

Jeez Sarries fans must be chewing their cheeks at the way their try-scoring has gone so suddenly flat.

Whatever Exeter are doing should be bottled and distributed by PRL at the next ERC meeting.

Just noticed

1. Harlequins - managed by Conor O'Shea
2. Northampton - got rid of Downey and Wilson....
3. Saracens - managed by Mark McCall
4. Leicester - captained by Geordan Murphy
5. Exeter - captained by Tommy Hayes

Could this be Northampton's year?

Just consider how unthinkable Marler getting the better of Castrogiovanni in the scrum would have been 12 months ago!

Rowntree has done good work with Marler his technique has come in no end in the last 12 months.

I've seen him criticised for his size a fair bit on this forum (despite being the same size as Parling),

It's not about his physical size more that his ability in the tight makes him seem lightweight, his form so far this season seems to be very good. Though that was the same before the summer tour where he was below par. Think he's destined to be an asset to Quins but fail to make the step up to the England team.

Yeah, he always seems to get good reviews...but when i watch him i just dont see him making a big impact internationally...(just my opinion i could be totally wrong)

We'll keep him. He plays best with 20 stone Kohn anyway and England don't have a lock that big (and young enough that they'll actually get picked) right now

Every Sarries game is terrible (again). Unless I particularly want to watch their opponents I've decided to stop watching them on tv. Horrible, horrible stuff, and damaging for the English game.

Really not optimistic of Saracens this season after watching some of the games and reading some of the match summaries.

For once I am not optimistic about a trip down the Stoop.

Quins looked very good against Leicester. Really impressed me.

The offloading game was very effective. Didn't drop much either which is a cause for worry.

Unless Saracens significantly up their game, Quins will win with ease.

The Quins game did bring up the question - Nick Easter - do you think his good form might see a recall for England?

Would be nice if Nick Evans was English, we badly need a fly half for England who is in form.


I thought Flood was poor again.

beshocked wrote:Unless Saracens significantly up their game, Quins will win with ease.

The Quins game did bring up the question - Nick Easter - do you think his good form might see a recall for England?

From what i've seen this season Shocked Sarries become their own worst enemy when they start getting frustrated. Ashton's pinging from a pretty stupid shoulder barge led directly to the Chiefs try, he wasn't getting ball time, or was being shut down when he did.

As for Easter, he's over 30 so regardless of form (consistently excellent) Lancaster won't even pick him for the bench as an old level head when things get hectic. Snowballs chance in hell.

Does raise the interesting question of whether Easter's a Lions contender, though. While there are more dynamic players, there aren't many who can control a game the way he does - which may be important against Australia.

On the other hand, there are decent 8s in the other home nations and Easter is a marmite sort of player - I've no idea whether he'd be Gats' cup of tea.

Easter is now 34. while he has, imo, been unfairly maligned on here - his time for England has gone.

"Would be nice if Nick Evans was English, we badly need a fly half for England who is in form.

I thought Flood was poor again."

Luckily for Flood his main competition is Farrell and he has much worse. His distribution yesterday was truely awful.

Alastairw that worries me because Saracens have been known for their good discipline. Two sin bins now for Ashton in 4 games. Not good. Actually two for Kelly Brown too. Our 4 sin bins from 2 players.


Sgt Pooly it's the equivalent of giving one player 4 out of 10 and the other 3 out of 10. It's insignificant who was worse if both were poor.

Fly half is yet again a problem position.

12 too. JTH and Allen were both poor. How was Barritt?


Fair points about Easter. He's looking good for Quins though.

Poorfour I don't think he's got any chance of the Lion's with the competition there is for backrow positions.

LondonTiger wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
Great match up Cole & Marler,

I thought Marler had the better of Castro, but struggled with Cole.[/quote]

I'd agree with that.

On the whole tigers can't have too many complaints. Quins offloading game was superb and it killed Tigers. The fact is that quins played pretty much to their full potential and Tigers played quite a way below theirs. Athough disappointed, one would think Tigers will continue to improve and that over the season, Tigers will finish in the top four again.

Again, well done to Quins.

DaveM wrote:Every Sarries game is terrible (again). Unless I particularly want to watch their opponents I've decided to stop watching them on tv. Horrible, horrible stuff, and damaging for the English game.

+1

Jimpy wrote:

DaveM wrote:Every Sarries game is terrible (again). Unless I particularly want to watch their opponents I've decided to stop watching them on tv. Horrible, horrible stuff, and damaging for the English game.

+1

Could say exactly the same about Leicester. Again no tries.

beshocked wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

DaveM wrote:Every Sarries game is terrible (again). Unless I particularly want to watch their opponents I've decided to stop watching them on tv. Horrible, horrible stuff, and damaging for the English game.

+1

Could say exactly the same about Leicester. Again no tries.

You could, but you'd be wrong, as Leicester aren't consistently like that. You're a man who loves his stats, go to them and compare that Tigers v Sarries try scoring records.

It is rather moot in any case, since we're only at week four.

Two games in a row no tries. That's a worthy stat both Saracens and Leicester share so it's a bit rich of you to say Saracens are boring when your own side are rivalling them in the boring stakes.

I am of course referring to the last two matches.

When Tigers have played Worcester and London Welsh it's hardly a surprise they have scored some tries but when they have faced a decent defence........

beshocked wrote:Two games in a row no tries. That's a worthy stat both Saracens and Leicester share so it's a bit rich of you to say Saracens are boring when your own side are rivalling them in the boring stakes.

I am of course referring to the last two matches.

When Tigers have played Worcester and London Welsh it's hardly a surprise they have scored some tries but when they have faced a decent defence........

This has nothing to do with the amount of tries scored, it does however, have everything to do with the style of play and the club doctrine. I simply agreed with Dave M. If you have a problem with what he said, comment about it to him, not to me.

I'd say Flood was much better than Farrell over the weekend, similar for the start of the season. It's not much of a surprise as Flood is a much better player, it's his backup which needs sorting(Burns has looked steady)

Barritt played ok BS but suffered from poor ball from Farrell

beshocked wrote:Alastairw that worries me because Saracens have been known for their good discipline. Two sin bins now for Ashton in 4 games. Not good. Actually two for Kelly Brown too. Our 4 sin bins from 2 players.

Personally I thought Pearson was a little harsh with that Yellow myself. Brown was buried pretty quickly; as in completely pinned. There was no getting away from that.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'd say Flood was much better than Farrell over the weekend, similar for the start of the season. It's not much of a surprise as Flood is a much better player, it's his backup which needs sorting(Burns has looked steady)

Barritt played ok BS but suffered from poor ball from Farrell

I thought Burns had a good match, but there's always that nagging doubt hanging over him regarding consistency...

Jimpy wrote:

beshocked wrote:Two games in a row no tries. That's a worthy stat both Saracens and Leicester share so it's a bit rich of you to say Saracens are boring when your own side are rivalling them in the boring stakes.

I am of course referring to the last two matches.

When Tigers have played Worcester and London Welsh it's hardly a surprise they have scored some tries but when they have faced a decent defence........

This has nothing to do with the amount of tries scored, it does however, have everything to do with the style of play and the club doctrine. I simply agreed with Dave M. If you have a problem with what he said, comment about it to him, not to me.

It's part of your anti Saracens code. Can't stop yourself.

Just giving my thoughts. I have not been impressed by Leicester's style of play. Too much reliance on the Tuilagi bros perhaps?

Club doctrine? Injure as many players of the opposition as humanly possible?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'd say Flood was much better than Farrell over the weekend, similar for the start of the season. It's not much of a surprise as Flood is a much better player, it's his backup which needs sorting(Burns has looked steady)

Barritt played ok BS but suffered from poor ball from Farrell

Did you watch the Leicester-Quins game?

What would you have given Flood out of 10? I would have given him 4. Same as last week.

Seems like Flood is overrated. If he starts the AIs in this form god help us all. He can't handle a decent defence.

beshocked wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

beshocked wrote:Two games in a row no tries. That's a worthy stat both Saracens and Leicester share so it's a bit rich of you to say Saracens are boring when your own side are rivalling them in the boring stakes.

I am of course referring to the last two matches.

When Tigers have played Worcester and London Welsh it's hardly a surprise they have scored some tries but when they have faced a decent defence........

This has nothing to do with the amount of tries scored, it does however, have everything to do with the style of play and the club doctrine. I simply agreed with Dave M. If you have a problem with what he said, comment about it to him, not to me.

It's part of your anti Saracens code. Can't stop yourself.

Just giving my thoughts. I have not been impressed by Leicester's style of play. Too much reliance on the Tuilagi bros perhaps?

Club doctrine? Injure as many players of the opposition as humanly possible?

Rubbish. I'm one of many who happen to think that Saracens style of play is bad for English rugby. Its a perfectly valid opinion, and is backed up week in week out by their matches (that I see) and comments on here. However, I forgot that it is against 606 law to criticise Saracens. Apparently.

And BTW, suggesting that Tigers contrive to injure as many opposition players as possible, is not only wrong, childish and petulent, its also slanderous.

To be fair to Sarries the weather was atrocious. High winds and peeing down with rain. Not a pretty sight but both sides gave absolutely everything in a fairly brutal encounter.

Well done Chiefs but i think Beshocked has it right about Sarries' discipline letting them down. Whether Ashton would've been able to stop Naki for the try is debatable but there was an Ashton shaped hole in the defence.

You are right - Saracens have a poor style of play. You don't need to repeatedly say it again and again and again. That shows your anti Saracens colours as you show great pleasure in pointing out Saracen's flaws repeatedly.

Against 606 laws to insult Saracens? No - a lot of criticism is warranted but you don't offer anything constructive. You offer no insight. No potential improvements.

I apologise it's wrong of me to say that Leicester do that every game.

It looked like in the Leicester-Quins game, Cole in particular was trying to injure as many Quins as possible. Plenty of Quins injured. That's one game admittedly.Leicester do have a certain reputation though.


Leicester need to IMO start trying out Benjamin and Thompstone. Why Benjamin hasn't been starting on the wing I don't know.

Well done effervescing elephant on the win. I like Exeter. Yes I read the conditions were poor but of course it doesn't matter to certain people.

Oops!! Thought I had stumbled on a Welsh thread there.

The performances of the lower teams so far this season would have me of the opinion this could be the most open and competitive AP for quite some time. The big four won't have things all their own way.

And rather than slating Sarries for their performance I would give massive credit to Chiefs.

Benjamin is injured BS.

I did watch the game, I'd have give Flood a 6 and similar the week before.

Farrell would have got a 4/5 this week and a 2/3 last week.

I'd have given Flood a 4 this week. I've not seen the Saracens game so can't comment on Farrell, but from an England perspective I am worried about Flood right now. He looks down on confidence and I am starting to wonder if he has become to reliant on his link up with Youngs at 9. On Saturday at times he was so deep behind the gainline his centres were almost in front of him. He is at his best when he plays flat and makes defences have to make tough decisions, but at present he is not doing this.

beshocked wrote:You are right - Saracens have a poor style of play. You don't need to repeatedly say it again and again and again. That shows your anti Saracens colours as you show great pleasure in pointing out Saracen's flaws repeatedly.

Against 606 laws to insult Saracens? No - a lot of criticism is warranted but you don't offer anything constructive. You offer no insight. No potential improvements.

I apologise it's wrong of me to say that Leicester do that every game.

It looked like in the Leicester-Quins game, Cole in particular was trying to injure as many Quins as possible. Plenty of Quins injured. That's one game admittedly.Leicester do have a certain reputation though.


Leicester need to IMO start trying out Benjamin and Thompstone. Why Benjamin hasn't been starting on the wing I don't know.

Well done effervescing elephant on the win. I like Exeter. Yes I read the conditions were poor but of course it doesn't matter to certain people.

Probably because he's long term injured?

Don't watch the Sarries game, it was awful.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Don't watch the Sarries game, it was awful.

Given the conditions, it was never going to be a classic.

Thank you Ozzy. Btw I would have given Farrell a 4 in the Leicester game.

It's funny you say that about Flood because I think Youngs relies on Flood!

St Pooly 6 is slightly above average. What did Flood do which suggests he was that in your opinion?