Aviva Premiership Round 4 Preview

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Friday 21st September

Sale Sharks v London Welsh, Salford City Stadium, Salford 20:00 local

Sale Team: 15Rob Miller,14 Tom Brady,13 Johnny Leota,12 Sam Tuitupou,11 Mark Cueto,10 Danny Cipriani,9 Dwayne Peel,1 Eifion Roberts,2 Joe Ward,3 Vadim Cobilas,4 Richie Gray,5 Kearnan Myall,6 Mark Easter,7 David Seymour,8 Andy Powell

16 Tommy Taylor, 17 Ross Harrison, 18 Tony Buckley, 19 Fraser McKenzie,20 Richie Vernon, 21 Will Cliff, 22 Nick Macleod, 23 Corne Uys

London Welsh Team: 15 Tom Arscott, 14 Phil MacKenzie,13 Sonny Parker,12 Hudson Tonga'uiha,11 Nick Scott,10Gordon Ross,9 Tyson Keats,1 Franck Montanella,2 Neil Briggs,3 Paulica Ion,4 Jonathan Mills,5 Matt Corker,6 Daniel Browne,7 Mike Hills,8 Ed Jackson

16 Dan George,17 Tom Bristow,18 Arthur Joly,19 Kirill Kulemin,20 Ed Williamson,21 Nick Runciman,22 Ryan Davis,23 Seb Jewell


Saturday 22nd September

London Irish v Bath Rugby, Madejski Stadium, Reading 15:00 local

London Irish Team: 15. Tom Homer; 14. Topsy Ojo*13. Jonathan Joseph*; 12. Steven Shingler; 11. Marland Yarde 10. Ian Humphreys; 9. Tomás O’Leary*; 1. Max Lahiff; 2. Scott Lawson*; 3. Halani Aulika*; 4. Bryn Evans; 5. Matt Garvey; 6. Declan Danaher (Captain); 7. Jamie Gibson; 8. Ofisa Treviranus*

16. David Paice*; 17. Jerry Yanuyanutawa*; 18. Alan Cotter; 19. George Skivington; 20. Jon Fisher; 21. Anthony Watson; 22. Shane Geraghty*; 23. Jack Moates

Northampton Saints v Worcester Warriors, Franklin's Gardens, Northampton 15:00 local

Gloucester Rugby v London Wasps, Kingsholm, Gloucester 15:15 local

Gloucester Team: Rob Cook; Jonny May, Henry Trinder, Billy Twelvetrees, James Simpson-Daniel; Freddie Burns, Dan Robson; Nick Wood, Darren Dawidiuk, Rupert Harden; Tom Savage, Jim Hamilton (capt); Sione Kalamafoni, Andy Hazell, Ben Morgan

Huia Edmonds, Dan Murphy, Shaun Knight, Will James, Akapusi Qera, Dave Lewis, Mike Tindall, Martyn Thomas

Wasps Team: 15 Tommy Bell14 Tom Varndell13 Elliot Daly12 Andrea Masi11 Christian Wade10 Stephen Jones9 Joe Simpson1 Tim Payne2 T Rhys Thomas3 Zak Taulafo4 Tom Palmer5 Marco Wentzel (c)6 James Haskell7 Jonathan Poff8 Ashley Johnson

16 Tom Lindsay17 Simon McIntyre18 Fabio Staibano19 James Cannon20 Billy Vunipola21 Charlie Davies22 Nick Robinson23 Jack Wallace


Leicester Tigers v Harlequins, Welford Road, Leicester 17:30 local

Leicester Tigers Team: 15 Scott Hamilton 14 Niall Morris 13 Matt Smith 12 Anthony Allen 11 Vereniki Goneva 10 Toby Flood 9 Sam Harrison 1 Boris Stankovich 2 Tom Youngs 3 Martin Castrogiovanni 4 Graham Kitchener 5 Geoff Parling 6 Steve Mafi 7 Julian Salvi 8 Jordan Crane (c)

16 George Chuter 17 Dan Cole 18 Logovii Mulipola 19 Rob Andrew 20 Thomas Waldrom 21 Patrick Phibbs 22 George Ford 23 Adam Thompstone


Harlequins Team: 15. Mike Brown14. Tom Williams13. Matt Hopper12. Jordan Turner Hall11. Ugo Monye10. Nick Evans9. Danny Care1. Joe Marler2. Joe Gray3. James Johnston4. Olly Kohn5. George Robson6. Maurie Fa'asavalu7. Chris Robshaw ©8. Nick Easter

16. Rob Buchanan17. Darryl Marfo18. Will Collier19. Charlie Matthews20. Tom Guest21. Karl Dickson22. Rory Clegg23. Ross Chisholm


Sunday 23rd September

Exeter Chiefs v Saracens, Sandy Park 14:15 local, 13:15 GMT

Some interesting match ups this weekend, i'll post teams when they're put up by the clubs.

6 is average.

Flood managed to pass pretty straight which is always a good skill for a FH.

If that's Flood being average in your eyes I don't want to know what you call poor!

I guess those of you blessed with watching on TV get a different view.

My opinion Flood was Leicesters best back out there on Saturday. not saying much as Harrisons service was dire and allen was really poor, but ther we go.

Oh and Beshocked we know how little you think of Youngs, based on what you write he must be the worst SH in the league.

LondonTiger Youngs is a awesome player on his day. Of course he's not the worst SH in the league. He just suffers from inconsistency like most players.

He's not just not as good as many people think.

I get the feeling from Tigers fan they don't like to acknowledge when their England boys like Youngs and Flood have played badly. There is always a reason or an excuse.

flood was not great, but as I said was the best tigers back.

We have not seen a fully fit Youngs at Welford Rd since April 2011 so it is hard for us to judge. Most of us acknowledged he was off the pace after RWC - a tournament he played in on one leg. He was close to his best towards the end of the season, while still struggling a little with knee and shoulder. He and Care pulled well away from Dickson and Youngs performance in the second test in SA was very good.

It does not appeal to logic to state that the 9 would rely on the 10, perhaps i've missed something.

It is true that Flood is off top form. It is also true to say that Farrell is off form (its difficult to gauge his top form).

Farrell was very poor against Tigers, it probably cost them the match. His place kicking was woeful for a start off. He definately improved this against Exeter but tactically, he was all over the gaff. Failing to physically touch the ball down in goal was a classic example.

Flood didn't have too bad a game on Saturday I thought. His place kicking percentages do not make for comfortable reading though. On balance, because his tactical kicking is slightly better, i'd say that whilst neither player is firing on all cylinders, Flood shades it at the moment.

Both need to spark in the AI if England are to have any chance of an upset.

Yup as if on cue - an excuse. It wasn't Youngs fault he played badly of course. Never his fault is it? This is the problem I have.

We can completely write off all of Young's appalling performances since April 2011 because according to you he wasn't fully fit?

A fully fit Youngs? If he's not fit then why is he on the pitch? What in your opinion is fully fit?

He's only fully fit when he's playing well?

Well looking at the match recording I strongly disagree with statements that Flood spent the whole match in the pocket. (harder for me to tell from the stand as I like to be end on so I can see the space that a player is creating).

Pot kettle black Beshocked. Time for me to leave this thread as frankly at times you really jack me off. you manage to twist everything people say and concentrate only on the points that suit your point and make you feel superior. Time after time I stand up for you and your team - and all you can do is snipe.

Jimpy wrote:It does not appeal to logic to state that the 9 would rely on the 10, perhaps i've missed something.

It is true that Flood is off top form. It is also true to say that Farrell is off form (its difficult to gauge his top form).

Farrell was very poor against Tigers, it probably cost them the match. His place kicking was woeful for a start off. He definately improved this against Exeter but tactically, he was all over the gaff. Failing to physically touch the ball down in goal was a classic example.

Flood didn't have too bad a game on Saturday I thought. His place kicking percentages do not make for comfortable reading though. On balance, because his tactical kicking is slightly better, i'd say that whilst neither player is firing on all cylinders, Flood shades it at the moment.

Both need to spark in the AI if England are to have any chance of an upset.

Suprisingly I would agree with most of that.

Well certain Tigers fans have blamed Farrell for Youngs playing badly in the 6 nations. Oh and Wilkinson for him playing poor in the RWC. Shows perhaps a reliance on Flood?

Though I do think Flood was again poor on Saturday.

I agree both Flood and Farrell are playing badly. I would say Flood shades it agreed but that means little as both are playing badly.

LondonTiger wrote:Pot kettle black Beshocked. Time for me to leave this thread as frankly at times you really jack me off. you manage to twist everything people say and concentrate only on the points that suit your point and make you feel superior. Time after time I stand up for you and your team - and all you can do is snipe.

LondonTiger unfortunately I feel like I have to snipe because attack is a form of defence.Saracens get by far the most criticism of any side and being the only fan on these boards makes it tough.

let's just agree to disagree. I thought Flood didn't play well. You thought he was the best of Leicester's backs.

If I think a player is playing well I will say so.

I think Manu Tuilagi has been very good for Leicester. I have even said who could well be world class.

I worry about the England centre and fly half position.


Neither Saracens or Leicester are playing well. There's not many positives either teams can take. Well for Leicester it could be the turnovers.

The form sides are Saints and Quins.

beshocked wrote:

Jimpy wrote:It does not appeal to logic to state that the 9 would rely on the 10, perhaps i've missed something.

It is true that Flood is off top form. It is also true to say that Farrell is off form (its difficult to gauge his top form).

Farrell was very poor against Tigers, it probably cost them the match. His place kicking was woeful for a start off. He definately improved this against Exeter but tactically, he was all over the gaff. Failing to physically touch the ball down in goal was a classic example.

Flood didn't have too bad a game on Saturday I thought. His place kicking percentages do not make for comfortable reading though. On balance, because his tactical kicking is slightly better, i'd say that whilst neither player is firing on all cylinders, Flood shades it at the moment.

Both need to spark in the AI if England are to have any chance of an upset.

Suprisingly I would agree with most of that.

Well certain Tigers fans have blamed Farrell for Youngs playing badly in the 6 nations. Oh and Wilkinson for him playing poor in the RWC. Shows perhaps a reliance on Flood?

Though I do think Flood was again poor on Saturday.

I agree both Flood and Farrell are playing badly. I would say Flood shades it agreed but that means little as both are playing badly.

Good, can we then also agree that going into a tizzy because I happened to agree with Dave M's comment about Saracens was ill advised, since it wasn't me who made the comment in the first place. As I said, perhaps you should take it up with him - you havent done so yet.

It is possible that Youngs relies on Flood to a point - they are both in pivotal positions.

Jimpy that's just patronising. This is the reason why I get very annoyed with you. Unfortunately you bring me down to your level.

I naively take the bait and you feed off it gratefully.

They are bound to rely on each other - they are the Tigers first choice - 9-10. Both seem to struggle when the other is not around. Why they can't adapt I don't know.

beshocked wrote:Jimpy that's just patronising. This is the reason why I get very annoyed with you. Unfortunately you bring me down to your level.
I naively take the bait and you feed off it gratefully.

They are bound to rely on each other - they are the Tigers first choice - 9-10. Both seem to struggle when the other is not around. Why they can't adapt I don't know.

If that isn't an ironic statement, I don't know what is.

Here is what happened. Dave M made an anti-Saracens statement. I simply agreed with it. You chose to ignore the anti-Saracens comment made by him, and instead immediately took issue with me. Ergo, I hav not dragged anyone 'down to my level'.

You can choose to apologise to me or not, its up to you. I havent done anything wrong.

If you want a patronising statement here's one for you:


[/quote]

Suprisingly I would agree with most of that.

[/quote]

Look familiar?

I think you're a tiny little bit frustrated with Saracens' shortcomings and are choosing to take it out on those who are happy to point out those shortcomings.

Exe-Sarries wasn't a pretty game, but the conditions at Sandy Park were god awful, driving wind, freezing rain - more than enough to question my continued commitment to shorts until 1st October. It struck me that Exe had a fairly simple game plan, a big part of which was kicking the ball long and hoping for Sarries mistakes to come (which they did). Would have preferred to see us keep the ball more, but the conditions made any kind of handling move pretty tricky

I'd say that Burns and Twelvetrees are the current form options for 10 and 12.

Both showing very good skills, both trying to play good attacking rugby and while yes there may be questions about consistency there are those same questions over the other players in those positions too. At least with these two they've shown that they don't let their heads drop when things go wrong, unlike Flood does. And they both have far better all round skill sets unlike Farrel.

Defence would not be a problem too.

Add to that Burns and 36 have both proved that they work well together as an axis and with an experienced scrumhalf like Care helping them and players like Robshaw and potentially Brown around them they'll have plenty of security in an England shirt.

I'd also add that I thought Saracens and Leicester were both way below their own high standards this weekend just gone and last weekend.

This will change though, the seasons a marathon not a sprint and both clubs are smart enough and good enough to get in to the top 4.

Both sets of fans should just chill out and look forward to the next weekend.

Yappy -
And 36 will have had plenty of time with Tuilagi too - perhaps not playing together but they will have some understanding of eachothers game.
Burns (10)-36 (12) -Tuilagi (13). Could be one for the future - or even the Fiji game (discussion on another thread)

With both Flood and Youngs, I think their performance is directly related to how much quick ball they can get. On Saturday, Quins slowed it down enough that the defensive line was set to sprint the moment Harrison picked it up, and his pass is slow enough that more often than not they were in Flood's face before he had time to react. He's never seemed able to cope with that (though not many flyhalves can - remember how poor Jonny looked when targeted by the French without Catt to relieve the pressure?)

Not sure what the answer is for England, other than have a pack that can provide some go-forward and a wizard in the centres who can make something out of nothing...

Tasty A-team playing later for Quins:

Harlequins 'A'

15. Ollie Lindsay-Hague
14. Seb Stegmann
13. Tom Casson
12. Ben Botica
11. Sam Smith
10. Rory Clegg
9. Jordan Burns

1. Darryl Marfo
2. Rob Buchanan
3. Will Collier
4. Pete Browne
5. Charlie Matthews
6. Jack Clifford
7. Luke Wallace ©
8. Tom Guest

16. Dave Ward
17. Harry Allen
18. Kyle Sinckler
19. Sam Twomey
20. Joe Trayfoot
21. Louis Grimoldby
22. Charlie Walker
23. Miles Mantella

vs Irish

Man I wish I lived closer so I could go watch these games. Just as a quick run through future Quins starters will be:

Marfo, Buchanan, Matthews, Clifford, Wallace (impressed he's captain too!) and Lindsay- Hague.

Potentially if Hague has a good showing maybe he's playing for the 23 shirt this weekend as back up to Brown?

Great looking Harlequins A squad. Also good to see young Wallace getting game time as captain, especially with a player like Guest in there. Sinckler off the bench is a monster of a selection.

Yea Sinckley and Charlie Walker are two impact subs who can do a lot of damage in two very different ways.

Jack Clifford looks like a great prospect, and Buchanan already has impressed when he's turned out for Harlequins first team. I think in a few years, him and Haywood of Saints will be competing with eachother for the starting England Hooker jersey.

London Irish A team to take on Quins tonight...

1. Jerry Yanuyanutawa; 2. Brian Blaney; 3. Alan Cotter; 4. James Sandford;5. James Doherty; 6. Kieran Low; 7. Gerard Ellis; 8. Alex Gray; 9. Jack Moates; 10. Mike Ward; 11. Conor Gaston; 12. Mike Worrincy; 13. Foster Horan; 14. Luke Peters;15. Anthony Watson

16. Shaun Malton; 17. Richard Palframan; 18. Charlie Davey; 19. Jack Ramshaw; 20. Ben Lonegran; 21. Tom Fowley; 22. Ludi Hopkinson; 23. Stuart Commins

Yanyyanutawa, Cotter, Gray, Moates and Watson will most likely be on the bench for the first team on Friday night so I would be very surprised if any of them played more than 40 minutes tonight.

I'd also add that I thought Saracens and Leicester were both way below their own high standards this weekend just gone and last weekend

We're never as good when Murphy is injured. No Ben Youngs either just makes it worse.

Interesting to see which of the Quins A lads step up in the future. Like next match, looking at the injury list

Exeter Braves 54-3 London Welsh 'A' - hang your heads in shame, senior team!

I didn't even realize Welsh would have an A team!

Quins A 62-0 London Irish A the pain continues for Exiles fans (of both teams)

Hmm, can't say I recognised many names, but at least it gave us a chance to field Mr Mumm! See you Friday

I think it's fair to say that we didn't really turn up last night. I don't know anything of the game, with the exception of the fact that Brian Blaney went off with what looked like a serious neck injury.

Wasn't it later stated that he had a broken nose and slight neck strain Ozzy? I'm sure I read on the Quins board that some of the LI subs were saying it wasn't as bad as it looked.

You shouldn't be too disappointed Ozzy, that was a very weak LI side playing a Quins team that probably could have beaten a few full Prem 1st teams.

ASBO how was Mumm? (Dean that is) will we see him this weekend?

Yep see you Friday

yappysnap wrote:Wasn't it later stated that he had a broken nose and slight neck strain Ozzy? I'm sure I read on the Quins board that some of the LI subs were saying it wasn't as bad as it looked.

You shouldn't be too disappointed Ozzy, that was a very weak LI side playing a Quins team that probably could have beaten a few full Prem 1st teams.

ASBO how was Mumm? (Dean that is) will we see him this weekend?

Yep see you Friday

Think he did alright, but as far as I can tell it wasn't the strongest oppo - not sure you'll see him this weekend, altho Hanksy has been cited for contact with the eye, so poss promotion for Aly Muldowney from the bench with either Damien Welch (also played well last night apparently) to Dean Mumm

Welch limped off last night, though it didn't look too serious. Mumm was solid, good under the high ball, and lasted the full 80, but was overshadowed in the loose by Welch who had a couple of storming runs.

Muldowney was competitive as ever playing out of position at 6 - interesting experiment. If Phillips is fit (he was on crutches after Sunday's game, hopefully precautionary), he has covered lock before as well as 6/8.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:Welch limped off last night, though it didn't look too serious. Mumm was solid, good under the high ball, and lasted the full 80, but was overshadowed in the loose by Welch who had a couple of storming runs.

Muldowney was competitive as ever playing out of position at 6 - interesting experiment. If Phillips is fit (he was on crutches after Sunday's game, hopefully precautionary), he has covered lock before as well as 6/8.

Thanks for that, Dub

Exeter's James Hanks and Dan Hipkiss & Michael Claasens both from Bath, have been cleared by the RFU of their citings - gouging, tip-tackle and kicking respectively.

Hanks' finger to Steve Borthiwicks eye was accidental, Hipkiss' was not a tip tackle as he put Gibson onto his back, and Claasens collision with Matt Garvey whilst taking a high ball was considered to be clumsy but defensive - making contact with his knee and arms - and was therefore not a kicking offence.

Just goes to show doesn't it? With all the time you would need to look at the replays of a game, one person sees elements of foul play, yet another sees nothing of the sort... "no case was made" for the Bath pair.

I actually agree with the decisions in relation to the Bath players, especially Hipkiss, it was a tough tackle, but is part of the game. My only frustration is that the process is still amazingly inconsistent, as we saw players banned for very similar tackles last season.

The citing of Hanks was an odd one - I watched the 14 mins when both Hanksy and Borthwick were on the field together, and could find nothing - apparently there was a ruck which collapsed, and as the players went down, Hanks put his hand out to break his fall, unfortunately catching Borthwick's ugly mug

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:The citing of Hanks was an odd one - I watched the 14 mins when both Hanksy and Borthwick were on the field together, and could find nothing - apparently there was a ruck which collapsed, and as the players went down, Hanks put his hand out to break his fall, unfortunately catching Borthwick's ugly mug

I'm suprised he didn't lose his hand in Borthwick's mouth. Its usually wide open, flapping at the referee...

Ozzy3213 wrote:I actually agree with the decisions in relation to the Bath players, especially Hipkiss, it was a tough tackle, but is part of the game. My only frustration is that the process is still amazingly inconsistent, as we saw players banned for very similar tackles last season.

Exactly, some of the soft yellows and then bans that were handed out last season were just silly. Like most of the fad laws though it seems that the refs/citing commissioners have given up on OTT sanctions on 'tip-tackles' now.