England : Ahead of The Curve

by anotherworldofpain Thu 20 Sep 2012, 8:52 pm

NOW - THEN
15 B Foden - Foden
14 C Ashton - Ashton
13 J Joseph - Tuilagi
12 M Tuilagi - Flood
11 D Strettle - Cueto
10 T Flood - Wilkinson
9 B Youngs - Youngs
1 J Marler - Stevens
2 D Hartley - Thompson
3 D Cole - Cole
4 M Botha - Deacon
5 G Parling - Palmer
6 T Johnson - Croft
7 C Robshaw- Moody
8 B Morgan - Easter

From World Cup exit to promising improvement in South Africa it struck me as I re-watched Englands world cup exit again today and bits of the draw with SA in SA< just how far ENG have moved on in such a short time.

New coaches and an almost entirely new team.

And from what I saw on reflection of the 2011 exit, in all truth they were not so bad!

What really let ENG down in the most standing out way, was a poor line out.

2 minutes in the game, ENG have a great start lineout ball on the French 5 meters line, but Thompson fluffs the throw and France escape.
Next, a lineout infringement gifts 3 point start to France.
Then, a lineout turn over leds to a the first French try 10 minutes later.
Then, defensive error from a lineout leads to the second French try.

Pretty much game over as France slowed down and continually kicked ENG back to their lineout for the next 40 minutes.

ENG could not get quality ball and so could not build anything. This is the truth about that game.

When I reflect on the direction they go to from here I can see clearly this is identified and there is a plan to solve it. Far from this morning when I though ENG a bit lost and without any direction I can see already that if they go in this direction with more athletic and abrasive locking partners, some old dead wood cut out and a genuine world class flank on the job I think this team might just be a handful at home by 2015! I simply don't see another team who have made as much progress in this short time and all in the right direction!

Wales? No, they are a good team but is still the fallible team who lost in the semi-final. They prove it with the 3-0 series loss in Australia naming almost the same team but losing icons like Shane Williams.

Ireland? This is a mess. The team is old now and needs to be replaced! And this 60-0 hiding by NZ put paid to some careers for 5 years of pyschological damages!

Scotland? Cough.

Australia? Unless they cut out Deans now and rebuild around Ewan McKenzie they may not even be a top 5 team in three years time! They have no depth and rely on old horses like Sharpe.

SA? They are in disarray, I am sorry, under Meyer they are going backwards downhill on a cart with greasy wheels. They need a revolution now, not incremental improvement.

NZ? Ok there is daylight between NZ and no.2 right now. But NZ's pack is green and lacks a mogrel. They are not world cup pedigree at the moment. Too many rookies and the aging McCaw won't make 2015. Trouble in the midfield looms and without Carter as they surely will be, they fall back to the pack.

France? Who knows anything about French rugby? Not me. Maybe they will be finalists v ENG in the first all NH RWC final?

Yes. The only team travelling with a positive delta at the moment are ENG. It is not my job of course to pick RWC winners three years ahead of time. But all I can say is that they have more momentum and more promise to become the top dogs again than any other team right now. The others must do something immediately to address this, or it will become clear before the tournament kicks off again who are the favourites!

by mowgli Thu 20 Sep 2012, 11:19 pm

England are no better off now than they were 12 months ago....they still have huge issues from 5-10 and in finding a partner for Manu. They have major problems with 9 and 10 and an embarassment of riches in terms of strength in depth without the first clue about who their first choice players are in most positions. Scraping a draw against a lamentable SA does not a summer make.

Really i can't decide if this post is lost in translation bearing in mind its origin, a cheap attempt at Wummery or the misguided beliefs of someone who knows jack about rugby (and the english language)

by mbernz Thu 20 Sep 2012, 11:37 pm

Spoiler:

by FerN Fri 21 Sep 2012, 4:26 am

I am sorry, but scraping a draw against England against probably the worst (inexperienced) Bok side in a while is really not moving forward. The bok side that still beat you 2-0 mind you, didn't really inspire confidence for the Bok side. Too many little mistakes, bad decisions from the top etc made us the easiest hosting side to beat, which you didn't do.

And as for Heineke - I am not really fond of his way, but we and Ireland were probably the only sides that got the AB's on the backfoot for some periods of time.

Oh, and on the draw. I personally felt we (Meyer) were stupid and unlucky to draw there (okay maybe a bit fortunate as well with the JP try) where I felt lucky to draw against Argentina. Okay the Argentina draw was in Argentina and yours were on the road, but I think Argentina is the most improved team. Probably because this is their first real competition. They also still have problems that I have commented on before, but I think you guys are going to be suprised when Argentina come up their for the AI's.

I would have liked it if they played England instead of France as an England - Argentina game would be a good way for me to see the progress of the Argentinian team. And I would also not take the chance of them getting the grand slam off the table. O, sorry I just realised that it would have been off the table, because of no Scotland game.

Off the touring sides, you probably played the worst side (the boks). In my opinions, Wales looked the best of the NH teams, then Ireland, regardless of the 60-0. The All Blacks are scary like that, did you see how they beat the number 2 team in rugby?

Australia, well they look very fragile (because of injuries etc) at the moment but still beat teams when they should.

I don't really know how France is doing, but wasn't Scotland the only team to get a SH scalp?

Anyway, I am only starting to get confidence in my Bok team now, Meyer seemed to sort somethings out, but still has to do more. We will probably end 3 in the RC with still a mathematical chance to be first, but who are we kidding. If we win both our up coming games we will be second. I may not like Meyer's game plan but it seems like it will work if he could just get a reliable kicker in the team (Sorry Biltong).

I really don't know why I replied I think I just wanted to say don't forget about Argentina, I think they will move up in the logs before this year finishes

by emack2 Fri 21 Sep 2012, 5:45 am

Typical AWOP post stirring the pot waiting for a bite,we are 4 years out from a RWC.England have a very green side and are looking after years to play an expansive game.BUT under Martin Johnson England were starting to play that way too.THEN come the RWC they like nearly all the sides involved went the keep it tight kick goals solid defence bit.Australia of all people tried it and were
beaten by the AllBlacks in there most ruthless display for 10 years..THAT was the RWC final for them.Scotland are Scotland who knows what they will do but on there day are formidable.France are totally unpredictable BUT with a player base of nearly 50% non qualified players what can you expect.Ireland are in rebuild mode BUT come the RWC can beat most sides in a Group of death.
Wales don`t quite seem to have the playing resources but are a very good NH side.Argentina and Samoa/Fiji outside bets for semi`s.Australia,Nz,and SA are all rebuilding.Judge them when they are at full strength[OZ/SA]NZ fall back on there pack?in your dreams the depth in backs now is a revelation.To write of all there 10`s just because Dan Carter MIGHT not be there is rubbish.McCaw not get there don`t bet on it Captain Fantastic is the best in the business still.
The Boks it isn`t the plan but the execution get the basic skills right they will be there or there abouts.

by **Biltong** Fri 21 Sep 2012, 6:11 am

AWOP is right to a certain extent, SA isn't where they should. Howver his reasoning and summation that we are in disarray is flawed.

Over the past 7 tests Meyer has focused on his forwards, having lost No John Smit, no Bakkies, no Matfield, no Burger, no Brussow, no Danie Rossow, no Uan Smit and then for half the matches no Spies or Bismarck would crippli most if not all international packs.

However by experimentation of using more than 20 different individuals he is nearly there.

Show me any team that started 7 tests later and gain parity if not ascendancy against the All Blacks.

by Breadvan Fri 21 Sep 2012, 6:24 am

emack2 wrote:Typical ~~AWOP~~ Its the grey ghost fgs! post stirring the pot waiting for a bite,we are 4 years out from a RWC.England have a very green side and are looking after years to play an expansive game.BUT under Martin Johnson England were starting to play that way too.THEN come the RWC they like nearly all the sides involved went the keep it tight kick goals solid defence bit.Australia of all people tried it and were
beaten by the AllBlacks in there most ruthless display for 10 years..THAT was the RWC final for them.Scotland are Scotland who knows what they will do but on there day are formidable.France are totally unpredictable BUT with a player base of nearly 50% non qualified players what can you expect.Ireland are in rebuild mode BUT come the RWC can beat most sides in a Group of death.
Wales don`t quite seem to have the playing resources but are a very good NH side.Argentina and Samoa/Fiji outside bets for semi`s.Australia,Nz,and SA are all rebuilding.Judge them when they are at full strength[OZ/SA]NZ fall back on there pack?in your dreams the depth in backs now is a revelation.To write of all there 10`s just because Dan Carter MIGHT not be there is rubbish.McCaw not get there don`t bet on it Captain Fantastic is the best in the business still.
The Boks it isn`t the plan but the execution get the basic skills right they will be there or there abouts.

by emack2 Fri 21 Sep 2012, 6:51 am

Hi,Biltong Juan Smith last heard was unlikely to play again,Spies?hardly Broussow?the fetcher is not in vogue in SA.Smit ,Matfield and Botha all gone.You yourself said you had players better than them now Bismarck,and Burger certainly .You are never short of good forwards,the match was lost behind.The AllBlacks have lost Kaino,Thorn in the pack and others lacking form the game plan was fine the execution execrable.Only a piece of Habana brilliance kept you inthe game realistically.Kicking down the throat of the best of the best Counter Attacking side in world Rugby ridiculous.Your strength was the Lineout but on Saturday it was your main weakness. Far to many long range shots at goal when it was obvious they were`nt going over another strategy was called for.The AllBlacks tried to be too clever,did`nt hit the rucks in numbers and execution by the backs poor at times.The Boks are further down the curve than the ABs and will be surprised if you don`t win in Soweto.BUT at some time this All Blacks side will really click then look out.

by **Biltong** Fri 21 Sep 2012, 6:56 am

Alan, you can dismiss SPies, Brussow as much as you want, they had experience, the Bok pack that started in Duneden had two experienced forwards.

We all know how that match was lost, Greyling, J de Villiers and Morne Steyn, with a little bit of Ruan Pienaar for good measure.

I am talking only about the Bok pack here, as AWOP suggested we are in disarray, and pointed out why, the Bok pack was being overhauled.

Our tactics are another conversation all together, and frankly I have had my say about that enough times.

by mowgli Fri 21 Sep 2012, 7:08 am

what a surprise this thread has been turned into a woe-is-me-I'm-an-SA-fan! picard

by **Biltong** Fri 21 Sep 2012, 7:11 am

Surely you could do better than that my little friend.

by emack2 Fri 21 Sep 2012, 7:15 am

Not dismissing there experience Biltong,just doubt they would have started anyway.Incidentally was there a reason Bekker did`nt start[think thats the name a real giant] coming off injury?

by **Biltong** Fri 21 Sep 2012, 7:23 am

Apparantly there were two reasons, his line out performance and he had a little ankle injury.

by FerN Fri 21 Sep 2012, 8:11 am

mowgli wrote:what a surprise this thread has been turned into a woe-is-me-I'm-an-SA-fan!

Woe-is-me-I'm-an-SA-fan!

But really, we are not good at the moment, but I can hardly see a team that loses to a bad team as ahead of the curve.

by **rodders** Fri 21 Sep 2012, 9:02 am

anotherworldofpain wrote:
Ireland? This is a mess. The team is old now and needs to be replaced! And this 60-0 hiding by NZ put paid to some careers for 5 years of pyschological damages!

How dare you sir! furious

This is wrong on so many levels..... I'm not sure what levels exactly but once I have worked out a valid counter argument then I shall return!..... Whistle

.....

by anotherworldofpain Fri 21 Sep 2012, 9:10 am

You are probably right rodders! Let me know whet I messed up and I will edit th post!

by Geordie Fri 21 Sep 2012, 12:39 pm

Morne Steyn is the reason Englands results looked better in the summer than they should have...papered over a few cracks. His missed so many points.

England have a LONG way to go!!!

1) Front Row - Excellent, as a unit World Class

2) Second Row - No serious first choices...generally solid, but not world class. No Ball carrier or serious grunt.

3) Back Row - Potential to be fantastic...but who will become the first choice? Too many choices...with "potential" that needs to be realised.

4) Half Backs - Where do we start. Several very good 9's but each have their flaws...ie consistancy etc. Need one to nail it. Likewise the mature 10's just arent world class...and the pretenders are just that year too young.

5) Centres - Developing some top notch 13's...but we are struggling for a 12. This is hindered by the issues at 9 & 10

6) Back 3 - Our only position of true strength and depth. But still who is nailed on...only Ashton probably.

THink that sums it up pretty much...and we aint gonna win the World CUp with a report like that!

by Duty281 Fri 21 Sep 2012, 12:45 pm

We'll see how much England have progressed in the Autumn Internationals - winning 3 out of 4 would be fantastic for English rugby. What's more, England have a real chance at winning the Six Nations next year.

by disneychilly Fri 21 Sep 2012, 1:57 pm

To be honest international rugby isn't at its best at present. The supposed cream of the crop are all misfiring and if not for the suprising and welcome performances of the Argies then the SH comp would seem even more stale.

Still test teams are only inches away from each other despite the odd blowout. Having said that a NZ team playing badly should never beat a SA team and it is an indictment on the approach taken by SA rugby in some areas that they weren't good enough to capitalise and get a win.

Injuries to Australia and SA are bordering on the ridiculous though and we have to take this into account. A lot of potential World XV players and ones that would have helped drag NZ back to the pack as it were and make for a more exciting 4N in terms of the ladder.

The 6N teams should be able to pinpoint a few weaknesses and this will encourage them for the autumn. Sadly the two outstanding things for me in the 4N have been the Pumas' physicality and the All Black defence in general. Both have been very impressive but I'd rather get excited about attacking prowess. Argentina play similarly to England though so I think there'll be less of a chance of an English ambush for the 4N teams. Wales and France to be the biggest threats come November.

by anotherworldofpain Mon 24 Sep 2012, 10:20 am

To be honest international rugby isn't at its best at present. The supposed cream of the crop are all misfiring and if not for the suprising and welcome performances of the Argies then the SH comp would seem even more stale.

Yes! This is what I am saying really, except with the proviso that ENG are headed in a new and exciting direction. They seem to be the only team genuinely "rebuilding" with any real promise. I expect this effort will turn into results soon!

by offload Mon 24 Sep 2012, 11:29 am

anotherworldofpain wrote:
To be honest international rugby isn't at its best at present. The supposed cream of the crop are all misfiring and if not for the suprising and welcome performances of the Argies then the SH comp would seem even more stale.

Yes! This is what I am saying really, except with the proviso that ENG are headed in a new and exciting direction. They seem to be the only team genuinely "rebuilding" with any real promise. I expect this effort will turn into results soon!

England have had more false dawns than Groundhog Day. Lets see a few results in the Autumn before we herald a new era shall we. Heaven forbid - they may have peaked too early....again Wink

by SecretFly Mon 24 Sep 2012, 1:21 pm

New coach and pretty much a new team. Yep, that's the official definition of 'rebuilding'.

Of course, you have to then ask the pointed question: just exactly what is being rebuilt? Which structure? - The world conquering one from way back to almost a decade now or one of the many prefab attempts at regaining that crown that have popped up and fizzled out in the interim?

If you're starting at a beginning then that's rebuilding by definition but to assume the word itself predicts success is flying in the face of far too much evidence to the contrary - not just in England but amongst many sides that have tried to do a rebirth.

by GunsGerms Mon 24 Sep 2012, 1:45 pm

Ireland are still potentially a very good team. Strong and very sucessful club level teams provide a good foundation for the national team.

Once Ireland have a new manager, get rid of dead wood (O'Gara etc.) and stop picking players who are showing no form (Murray etc.) then they should be a handful again.

The current dearth of tactical intelligence, coaching nous and backline creativity is killing us. We are currently a poor mans South Africa and they arent even very good either.

Our current manager has gradually converted a consistently competitive, innovative team with a very good record to one that resembles a clueless Irish team from the amature era soon to be laughing stock of the 6 nations.

It defys belief that a manager can lose 60-0 to any team and remain in employment. Absolute disgrace.

by SecretFly Mon 24 Sep 2012, 1:50 pm

GunsGerms wrote:Ireland are still potentially a very good team. Strong and very sucessful club level teams provide a good foundation for the national team.

Once Ireland have a new manager, get rid of dead wood (O'Gara etc.) and stop picking players who are showing no form (Murray etc.) then they should be a handful again.

The current dearth of tactical intelligence, coaching nous and backline creativity is killing us. We are currently a poor mans South Africa and they arent even very good either.

Our current manager has gradually converted a consistently competitive, innovative team with a very good record to one that resembles a clueless Irish team from the amature era soon to be laughing stock of the 6 nations.

It defys belief that a manager can lose 60-0 to any team and remain in employment. Absolute disgrace.

a big +1

by debaters1 Mon 24 Sep 2012, 2:10 pm

Whoa horsey, writing off the AB's like that is very premature. Yes McCaw is aging and wont be there in 2015, hence the reason why the Crusdaers have announced Ritchie is taking a sbatical next year to "lengthen" his career. Read this as a roundabout way of saying his club mate (forgotten his name, early 20's got his first caps against Ireland in June) is seen in the eyes of the NZRFU, as at least as good as Ritchie is now (minus the hugely important expierence McCaw brings tot he party, obviously) and the man that will the the AB's 7 in 2015. So the youngster will get a season of Super Rugby without internal competition from an All Black RWC winning captain and when Ritchie returns for the Rugby Championship in 2013, will not be able to be parachuted in by Hansen (assuming newbies form stays as is/improves of course) and then McCaw will have effectively retired/been retired without the big announcement or "shock" of him being dropped/not selected etc.

It is called stage management and I agree with it completely. If things go wrong in terms of form or injuries, McCaw will be there to stand in but he will not be blocking the way either. And a season off will probably lengthen his Super Rugby career too if he stays in NZ, so every one wins as he can pass on his invaluable experience & knowledge.

by Effervescing Elephant Mon 24 Sep 2012, 2:11 pm

SecretFly wrote:New coach and pretty much a new team. Yep, that's the official definition of 'rebuilding'.

Of course, you have to then ask the pointed question: just exactly what is being rebuilt? Which structure? - The world conquering one from way back to almost a decade now or one of the many prefab attempts at regaining that crown that have popped up and fizzled out in the interim?

If you're starting at a beginning then that's rebuilding by definition but to assume the word itself predicts success is flying in the face of far too much evidence to the contrary - not just in England but amongst many sides that have tried to do a rebirth.

It's more of a standard refurb with a two storey extension a la 'Homes under the hammer'. I think we're still waiting for planning permission on the extension though.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon 24 Sep 2012, 2:18 pm

debaters1 wrote:Whoa horsey, writing off the AB's like that is very premature. Yes McCaw is aging and wont be there in 2015, hence the reason why the Crusdaers have announced Ritchie is taking a sbatical next year to "lengthen" his career. Read this as a roundabout way of saying his club mate (forgotten his name, early 20's got his first caps against Ireland in June) is seen in the eyes of the NZRFU, as at least as good as Ritchie is now (minus the hugely important expierence McCaw brings tot he party, obviously) and the man that will the the AB's 7 in 2015. So the youngster will get a season of Super Rugby without internal competition from an All Black RWC winning captain and when Ritchie returns for the Rugby Championship in 2013, will not be able to be parachuted in by Hansen (assuming newbies form stays as is/improves of course) and then McCaw will have effectively retired/been retired without the big announcement or "shock" of him being dropped/not selected etc.

It is called stage management and I agree with it completely. If things go wrong in terms of form or injuries, McCaw will be there to stand in but he will not be blocking the way either. And a season off will probably lengthen his Super Rugby career too if he stays in NZ, so every one wins as he can pass on his invaluable experience & knowledge.

I think you're reading too much into the rest period for McCaw - NZ rugby is very pragmatic about replacing greats when their time is up - witness Buck Shelford being dropped after 2 seasons as undefeated ABs captain, or Israel Dagg replacing Muliaina before the RWC. Also, Sam Cane plays for the Chiefs not the Crusaders - Matt Todd is McCaw's backup at the Crusaders, and after being touted as the next McCaw 18 months ago he (like George Whitelock before him) has slipped down the list.

I'd say the odds are against McCaw still being 1st choice 7 in 2015. But if he's fit and better than the next best 7 he'll be there, if not he won't

by SecretFly Mon 24 Sep 2012, 2:19 pm

Effervescing Elephant wrote:
SecretFly wrote:New coach and pretty much a new team. Yep, that's the official definition of 'rebuilding'.

Of course, you have to then ask the pointed question: just exactly what is being rebuilt? Which structure? - The world conquering one from way back to almost a decade now or one of the many prefab attempts at regaining that crown that have popped up and fizzled out in the interim?

If you're starting at a beginning then that's rebuilding by definition but to assume the word itself predicts success is flying in the face of far too much evidence to the contrary - not just in England but amongst many sides that have tried to do a rebirth.

It's more of a standard refurb with a two storey extension a la 'Homes under the hammer'. I think we're still waiting for planning permission on the extension though.

but those folks never buy those bloody homes! Oops..that's the other programme. What's that one called where buyers look around prospective homes and never get round to buying any of them? "Oh it's just what we've been looking for all our lives, and in the right price range too.... it's a Bobby Dazzler home, and no doubt ...but.................. the front door handle is just too...too........... rococo. It's not for us this time. Wouldn't be seen dead in a place with a rococo door handle."

by Effervescing Elephant Mon 24 Sep 2012, 2:24 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Effervescing Elephant wrote:
SecretFly wrote:New coach and pretty much a new team. Yep, that's the official definition of 'rebuilding'.

Of course, you have to then ask the pointed question: just exactly what is being rebuilt? Which structure? - The world conquering one from way back to almost a decade now or one of the many prefab attempts at regaining that crown that have popped up and fizzled out in the interim?

If you're starting at a beginning then that's rebuilding by definition but to assume the word itself predicts success is flying in the face of far too much evidence to the contrary - not just in England but amongst many sides that have tried to do a rebirth.

It's more of a standard refurb with a two storey extension a la 'Homes under the hammer'. I think we're still waiting for planning permission on the extension though.

but those folks never buy those bloody homes! Oops..that's the other programme. What's that one called where buyers look around prospective homes and never get round to buying any of them? "Oh it's just what we've been looking for all our lives, and in the right price range too.... it's a Bobby Dazzler home, and no doubt ...but.................. the front door handle is just too...too........... rococo. It's not for us this time. Wouldn't be seen dead in a place with a rococo door handle."

Sounds like Escape to the Country... It's lovely, just what we wanted but there are too many sheep. Or "We really want a 17th century cottage" they get shown one and "Well the ceilings are too low and the windows aren't big enough!" It's a feckin' 17th ventury cottage what do you expect! Does my head in!

by SecretFly Mon 24 Sep 2012, 2:28 pm

Effervesing

Laugh

sorry folks...just a little house buying diversion...back to your curves by all means.

by Effervescing Elephant Mon 24 Sep 2012, 2:29 pm

Yeah sorry guys, curve away.

by anotherworldofpain Mon 24 Sep 2012, 10:46 pm

GunsGerms wrote:Ireland are still potentially a very good team...

Yes, I stopped reading there. I am sorry by Ireland potentially being things, is right up there with Wales on their day, You are or you aren't. There is no potentials, or what-ifs, or if-buts and maybes.

by disneychilly Tue 25 Sep 2012, 9:31 am

If NZ don't get an enforcer I'd like to think McCaw will play 6. Will help the balance and he is proper hard.

Both Wales and Ireland are potentially very good teams. But there's a mindset issue that keeps them from joining the top table.

by SecretFly Tue 25 Sep 2012, 10:41 am

anotherworldofpain wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:Ireland are still potentially a very good team...

Yes, I stopped reading there. I am sorry by Ireland potentially being things, is right up there with Wales on their day, You are or you aren't. There is no potentials, or what-ifs, or if-buts and maybes.

Says the guy who is doing the crystal ball on England's 'potential'. Do keep track of your own comments, pain.
What's that maxim again?

No potentials, or what-ifs, or if-buts and maybes.....but let's dedicate a thread to it all the same.

by yappysnap Tue 25 Sep 2012, 11:54 am

SecretFly wrote:
anotherworldofpain wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:Ireland are still potentially a very good team...

Yes, I stopped reading there. I am sorry by Ireland potentially being things, is right up there with Wales on their day, You are or you aren't. There is no potentials, or what-ifs, or if-buts and maybes.

Says the guy who is doing the crystal ball on England's 'potential'. Do keep track of your own comments, pain.
What's that maxim again?

No potentials, or what-ifs, or if-buts and maybes.....but let's dedicate a thread to it all the same.

Aslong as it's about England

by debaters1 Tue 25 Sep 2012, 1:03 pm

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
I think you're reading too much into the rest period for McCaw - NZ rugby is very pragmatic about replacing greats when their time is up - witness Buck Shelford being dropped after 2 seasons as undefeated ABs captain, or Israel Dagg replacing Muliaina before the RWC. Also, Sam Cane plays for the Chiefs not the Crusaders - Matt Todd is McCaw's backup at the Crusaders, and after being touted as the next McCaw 18 months ago he (like George Whitelock before him) has slipped down the list.

I'd say the odds are against McCaw still being 1st choice 7 in 2015. But if he's fit and better than the next best 7 he'll be there, if not he won't

First off apologies for not recalling Sam Cane's name & being too lazy to research it. Secondly, I fully accept that dropping undropables is a Kiwi trait that is to be applauded I just felt that the June tests, the RC and the end of SH season Tour were set up nicely for Ritchie to do a lap of honour by going potentially 20 matches unbeaten, if my maths is correct, 7 RWC matches, 3 tests versus Ireland, 6 RC games and 4 NH Tour matches. Then he gets his sabbatical and when he returns to action, the guy in possession is too good to move.

Ah well, just an idle theory!

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Tue 25 Sep 2012, 1:56 pm

debaters1 wrote:
Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
I think you're reading too much into the rest period for McCaw - NZ rugby is very pragmatic about replacing greats when their time is up - witness Buck Shelford being dropped after 2 seasons as undefeated ABs captain, or Israel Dagg replacing Muliaina before the RWC. Also, Sam Cane plays for the Chiefs not the Crusaders - Matt Todd is McCaw's backup at the Crusaders, and after being touted as the next McCaw 18 months ago he (like George Whitelock before him) has slipped down the list.

I'd say the odds are against McCaw still being 1st choice 7 in 2015. But if he's fit and better than the next best 7 he'll be there, if not he won't

First off apologies for not recalling Sam Cane's name & being too lazy to research it. Secondly, I fully accept that dropping undropables is a Kiwi trait that is to be applauded I just felt that the June tests, the RC and the end of SH season Tour were set up nicely for Ritchie to do a lap of honour by going potentially 20 matches unbeaten, if my maths is correct, 7 RWC matches, 3 tests versus Ireland, 6 RC games and 4 NH Tour matches. Then he gets his sabbatical and when he returns to action, the guy in possession is too good to move.

Ah well, just an idle theory!

Your theory could well happen - I was just suggesting that no-one was planning it that way. McCaw will certainly get some games next July for the Crusaders - not necessarily at 7, but in the back row, and in the past he's been very good at coming back straight to his best post-injuries. The Crusaders' back row squad of McCaw, Read, Todd, G. Whitelock and the youngest Whitelock (who's first name I've forgotten) is arguably the stongest of any club/province anywhere though so if Todd is carving up Super XV ...

by anotherworldofpain Tue 25 Sep 2012, 2:01 pm

yappysnap wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
anotherworldofpain wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:Ireland are still potentially a very good team...

Yes, I stopped reading there. I am sorry by Ireland potentially being things, is right up there with Wales on their day, You are or you aren't. There is no potentials, or what-ifs, or if-buts and maybes.

Says the guy who is doing the crystal ball on England's 'potential'. Do keep track of your own comments, pain.
What's that maxim again?

No potentials, or what-ifs, or if-buts and maybes.....but let's dedicate a thread to it all the same.

Aslong as it's about England

Yappy, if you read that thread you would see I make a comment there "It's not my job to predict the future, or World Cup result in three years time". All I am say in that thread is about ENG seem to be rebuilding, while other nations are in DECLINE (WAL, IRE, FRA) or DENIAL (SA, NZ, AUS),

by debaters1 Tue 25 Sep 2012, 2:02 pm

Could work out that way too and a renewed and refreshed Ritchie who's been watching thousands of hours of footage of his domestic and internaional rivals and reivents the position once again or Tood could be at 7 in the RC in 2013 and be riping it up too.

Ah well, whatever happens, if Ritchie plays his last game for NZ on the NH Tour, I wont he shocked.

by SecretFly Tue 25 Sep 2012, 2:10 pm

anotherworldofpain wrote:

Yappy, if you read that thread you would see I make a comment there "It's not my job to predict the future, or World Cup result in three years time". All I am say in that thread is about ENG seem to be rebuilding, while other nations are in DECLINE (WAL, IRE, FRA) or DENIAL (SA, NZ, AUS),

You have to rebuild when you change most of a team and ...em you yourself are different (coach!) The word 'rebuilding' has no meaning except that it means a new beginning. You're suggesting that England's new beginning 'seems' promising - it hasn't proved itself yet, it's only promising. That's simply 'potential' spelt backways Wink

And you're not allowing 'potential' to be used to shore up hope for the future.

England have started their latest attempt at 'rebuilding', it may indeed prove fruitful; but other sides could decide in the course of a year or two to start their attempts at rebuilding... rebuilding then decline, rebuilding then decline. Where's the story?

by Jimpy Tue 25 Sep 2012, 2:20 pm

anotherworldofpain wrote:
yappysnap wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
anotherworldofpain wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:Ireland are still potentially a very good team...

Yes, I stopped reading there. I am sorry by Ireland potentially being things, is right up there with Wales on their day, You are or you aren't. There is no potentials, or what-ifs, or if-buts and maybes.

Says the guy who is doing the crystal ball on England's 'potential'. Do keep track of your own comments, pain.
What's that maxim again?

No potentials, or what-ifs, or if-buts and maybes.....but let's dedicate a thread to it all the same.

Aslong as it's about England

Yappy, if you read that thread you would see I make a comment there "It's not my job to predict the future, or World Cup result in three years time". All I am say in that thread is about ENG seem to be rebuilding, while other nations are in DECLINE (WAL, IRE, FRA) or DENIAL (SA, NZ, AUS),

by anotherworldofpain Tue 25 Sep 2012, 2:20 pm

No. You are wrong. I am saying ENG are making visible changes and get the change in results (a draw in SA). As compare to IRE, WAL, SA, NZ who don't make the change and are going backwards slowly.

ENG=brave and get some return. Others=In denial and talking about "potential". There is the difference.

by SecretFly Tue 25 Sep 2012, 2:35 pm

anotherworldofpain wrote:No. You are wrong. I am saying ENG are making visible changes and get the change in results (a draw in SA). As compare to IRE, WAL, SA, NZ who don't make the change and are going backwards slowly.

ENG=brave and get some return. Others=In denial and talking about "potential". There is the difference.

No.. You are wrong Wink

There is no official date for sides to begin rebuilding. England were brave to begin again? Were they? Many would say Martin Johnson was already starting to crank up his 'rebuilding' when he was beheaded by the PC elite who don't like to see happy dwarves chucking rugby players across bar tables.................. or is that the other way round???

Anyway...England change. Wow, what courage. 2015 down the road, at home, sights set on not making an eejit of themselves so they do the courageous thing and..........change. Good stuff...that's what change does. New coach, new team. A draw with SA - not exactly the greatest feat in world rugby today, is it?

Others = denial. Absolutely correct here, pain. IRFU certainly in denial. Irish fans have a coaching team they don't want, it has been like that for a long time now. And we're all trying to pressurise for change. I hope we're 'brave' enough to get it in maybe a year.... ready for our 'rebuilding' for 2015.

by anotherworldofpain Tue 25 Sep 2012, 2:53 pm

You don't need an official date to start common sense either...

by SecretFly Tue 25 Sep 2012, 3:00 pm

anotherworldofpain wrote:You don't need an official date to start common sense either...

You lost your argument, pain. That's the only sense coming out of this thread.

by Effervescing Elephant Tue 25 Sep 2012, 3:00 pm

Can you specify which period of England rebuilding you are talking about AWOP? The one that started after 2003 or the one after 2007 or this current phase of rebuilding that started in 2011? Or are they all part of the same gigantic rebuild? Has there been a single point in the last 9 years where we haven't been rebuilding? It's exhausting being an England fan with all these rebuilds going on!

by GunsGerms Tue 25 Sep 2012, 5:18 pm

anotherworldofpain wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:Ireland are still potentially a very good team...

Yes, I stopped reading there. I am sorry by Ireland potentially being things, is right up there with Wales on their day, You are or you aren't. There is no potentials, or what-ifs, or if-buts and maybes.

To be honest I wouldnt really expect you would be able to understand my post anyway.

by Jimpy Wed 26 Sep 2012, 11:45 am

GunsGerms wrote:
anotherworldofpain wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:Ireland are still potentially a very good team...

Yes, I stopped reading there. I am sorry by Ireland potentially being things, is right up there with Wales on their day, You are or you aren't. There is no potentials, or what-ifs, or if-buts and maybes.

To be honest I wouldnt really expect you would be able to understand my post anyway.

For all his shortcomings, he is however, apparently quite good working behind a bar.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Wed 26 Sep 2012, 12:03 pm

Jimpy wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
anotherworldofpain wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:Ireland are still potentially a very good team...

Yes, I stopped reading there. I am sorry by Ireland potentially being things, is right up there with Wales on their day, You are or you aren't. There is no potentials, or what-ifs, or if-buts and maybes.

To be honest I wouldnt really expect you would be able to understand my post anyway.

For all his shortcomings, he is however, apparently quite good working behind a bar.

You mean he's from Eastern Europe?

Wink

(sadly for all those who're fond of tired stereotypes, in the modern UK-work-permit environment the Kiwi/Aussie barman is rapidly becoming an endangered species. There's still plenty of barristas mind you)

Run

by Jimpy Wed 26 Sep 2012, 1:13 pm

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
Jimpy wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
anotherworldofpain wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:Ireland are still potentially a very good team...

Yes, I stopped reading there. I am sorry by Ireland potentially being things, is right up there with Wales on their day, You are or you aren't. There is no potentials, or what-ifs, or if-buts and maybes.

To be honest I wouldnt really expect you would be able to understand my post anyway.

For all his shortcomings, he is however, apparently quite good working behind a bar.
You mean he's from Eastern Europe?

(sadly for all those who're fond of tired stereotypes, in the modern UK-work-permit environment the Kiwi/Aussie barman is rapidly becoming an endangered species. There's still plenty of barristas mind you)

Perhaps 'speaking' with that pseudo Eastern European accent occasionally helps him when defending some of his clients.... Whistle

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