PGA Tour: Runners and Ryders: Notes from the Ballwasher

First topic message reminder :

1).From the ridiculous to the sublime this week, or from the contrived to the (fiercely) competitive if you prefer.
Thumbs down here for the FedEx Cup but thumbs up for the individual tournaments, most of which, as usual, provided for compelling viewing, though perhaps less so as the Play-offs went on - certainly at least half of last weekend's "competitors" seemed to be going through the motions once their chances at the wheelbarrow-full of $10M were gone.

2).The best player of the Play-Offs was clearly identified, Rory McIlroy, while the bloke with the best timing, Brandt Snedeker and his red hot putter, received all the plaudits, not to mention much of the loot.
Rory will be Player Of The Year, no question about that, while Brandt's marathon of nine tournaments in ten weeks was richly rewarded - can only hope that Medinah will be one week too far (as it almost certainly will be for Furyk).

3).And before we look at this week's events in Chicago, a word about the first inductee to the World Golf Hall Of Fame for 2013, Freddie Couples.
Given that no-one received the 65% of the vote in the PGA Tour ballot for automatic induction, Fred was the lucky loser with 51%. No doubt the most popular man on the ballot (the equally well-qualified but terminally curmudgeonly, Weiskopf doesn't even merit a vote any more), Couples led Love and Venturi (38%), O'Meara (36%), Tony Lema (28%), Macdonald Smith (24%) and double-Major winners Zoeller and Stockton. My vote would have been for Venturi but his retirement away from the public eye seems to diminish his legacy rather than enhance it.
"International" votes expected soon. Perhaps a phone call that Padraig Harrington will be happy to receive?

4).While most of America looks the other way, all golfing eyes will be fixed on Chicago this week and Medinah's cauldron. The golfing stereotypes seem to have been in play in setting up Medinah's 7,600 yards:
~Team USA have the best/longest drivers, so widen the fairways for the grip-it-and-rippers and minimize the rough.
~Europe make all the crucial putts, so speed the greens up to Augusta National standards.
~USA prefer flop-shots around the green, Europe the chip-and-run,
etc, etc.
In addition it seems to be fashionable to feel that FedEx action has sharpened Team USA's competitive form.
So let's have a look.

5).Form first, and most of the combatants played Bridgestone, the PGA and at least some Play-Off or ET golf. The players with most owgr points these past eight weeks then are:
McIlroy: 271
Snedeker: 127
Bradley: 115 (but only 10 in the past five weeks)
Rose: 89
Garcia and Woods: 80
Those with fewer than 25 points include: Kuchar, Simpson, Zach, Colsaerts, McDowell, Kaymer and Molinari (with only 9.66 in four events).
Edge to Team USA, though additional tournaments for most of them introduce the fatigue factor.

6).Driving:
With apologies to non-PGA Tour members, the driving distance stats on this year's PGA Tour show:
1st: Bubba Watson
4th: Dustin
5th: McIlroy
14th: Bradley
28th: Westwood
Given Colsaerts' length and Garcia's extra gear this is closer than DLIII probably realises, though clearly Mickelson and Woods can swing for the fences when they can do so with impunity.
Edge to Team USA.

7).Putting:
The "Strokes gained Putting" Tour stats show the following:
1st: Snedeker
2nd: Donald
7th: Mickelson (difficult to believe)
10th: Zach
23rd: Kuchar
24th: Furyk (difficulter to believe)
26th: Garcia (difficultest to believe)
Definite Edge to Team USA.

8).So why fear the Europeans?
Ryder Cup records of golfers with winning RC records:
Westwood: 16-11-6: (2-5 in singles)
Garcia: 14-6-4: (even with a 1 win, 4 losses singles record)
Donald: 8-2-1: (6-0 in foursomes)
Poulter: 8-3-0: (winning record in each format, 3-0 in singles)
McDowell: 4-2-2
Rose: 3-1-0
Lawrie: 3-1-1
Kaymer: 2-1-1

Team USA:
-

Big Edge to Europe, but history may not be worth a damn.

9).I can't see Europe winning unless Garcia and Westwood come up trumps and banish the memory of the forlorn figures they cut at Valhalla.
Head: USA
Heart: Europe
Result: Chicken: 14-14 so Europe keep Cup.

10).And one more compelling reason to hope Europe win:
1991 Ryder Cup protagonist David Feherty has publicly stated he hopes Team USA win.
What a pr1ck.

well i backed 14.5 13.5 so thank you so much tiger

Kaymer & Westwood delivered when needed.

Such a spectacular event. Samuel Ryder created the best sporting event in history in my opinion.

Wow. Brookline is the first Ryder Cup I can remember, and I can still clearly recall the crushing disappointment. Now I've experienced the reverse, just fantastic!

Wonder if Davis Love will give Paul Lawrie some credit this time for his and his team's victory??

Don't forget Poulter won all his matches here.

mystiroakey wrote:well i backed 14.5 13.5 so thank you so much tiger

I backed 14-14 at 8pm tonight when I had a gut feeling. 12/1. I don't care though, we won the cup!!!

Paul Lawrie had a great Ryder Cup despite only getting 1 point. Was up against it in his doubles matches. 5&3 today was adequate redemption.

Just wow.... Cant believe tiger missed that putt costing me money but care...

Feels sooooo good.

It was sad to see a good man like Furyk folding so visibly...........his bizzare routine ended up looking so ridiculous..................this allied to folding 3 or 4 times already this year could spell the end of his career at the very, very top............................

Still can't believe Woods (a) left the flag out and looked as if he wanted to chip in when he didn't need to.........(b) missed the return putt (c) conceded the ryder cup by conceding Molinaris putt

I think Woods actions showed contempt for his teammates and captain...................

Think it was a class act from Woods. They couldn't win anyway, so why not be a gentleman and concede.

http://espn.go.com/golf/conversations/_/id/8434982/ryder-cup-all-locked-us

pedro wrote:Think it was a class act from Woods. They couldn't win anyway, so why not be a gentleman and concede.

But they could have tied the Ryder Cup....................and you could have said Molinari should have conceded Wodds putt as well if you want to go down that road...................

I think his team mates deserved a shot at the match being tied...............

John Cregan wrote:

pedro wrote:Think it was a class act from Woods. They couldn't win anyway, so why not be a gentleman and concede.

But they could have tied the Ryder Cup....................and you could have said Molinari should have conceded Wodds putt as well if you want to go down that road...................

I think his team mates deserved a shot at the match being tied...............

Not too many people slag off Jack for conceding the Jacklin putt which potentially cost his side a win.

Thought Woods did the right thing - Franny wasn't going to miss anyway.

What a day!

I wonder what Olly told Molinari at the 18th fairway while waiting for celebrations to die off.

Diggers,

There was an opportunity for Molinari to concede Wodds putt and settle for 14-14............and retention.

Seeing as Molinari decided(rightly) to finish the match properly, i think the onus was on Woods to try and hang on for the point in order to tie the overall score

Molinari only makes the decision as to how he wants to finish his part of the match, not how Woods should.
Difficult to tell on camera but to me Woods putt looked by far the trickier, not much longer but a lot harder to read.
Woods had a split second to react and made a decision in a sea of chaos. Some people think it was a noble act and others think he let his side down and is a disgrace.......hey ho.

Personally, Id have loved to see Franny putt, im 95% sure he would have made it, but i think it was anti climactic a bit the way it finished..............

I thought the climax was the Kaymer match, the final match was all a bit after the Lords Mayor show and hence thought the concession was a nice touch. But I guess you could see it either way.

Diggers wrote:I thought the climax was the Kaymer match, the final match was all a bit after the Lords Mayor show and hence thought the concession was a nice touch. But I guess you could see it either way.

Massive difference IMO between the Ryder Cup being a tie or one team winning it..................
Obviously the tie sits better with the team who are retaining, but for the history books etc, the difference is monumental...........being able to say "i was on the 2012 winning ryder cup team"................................

Sir Ian Poulter (just for you Diggers)

super_realist wrote:Sir Ian Poulter (just for you Diggers)

Yep, his after dinner speaking career is secure.

I think the golf guys in the office today may be a bit subdued. As the only European, I think I'll spend the day quietly humming " One Ian Poulter" or "ole ole". Not loud enough to be obnoxious (after all, what goes around ... Etc), but just loud enough to make a point !

Or whistle "Always look on the bright side of life".. I heard the European fans singing that after the result and it made me smile

John Cregan wrote:

Diggers wrote:I thought the climax was the Kaymer match, the final match was all a bit after the Lords Mayor show and hence thought the concession was a nice touch. But I guess you could see it either way.

Massive difference IMO between the Ryder Cup being a tie or one team winning it..................
Obviously the tie sits better with the team who are retaining, but for the history books etc, the difference is monumental...........being able to say "i was on the 2012 winning ryder cup team"................................

Would anyone in their right mind have considered 14-14 anything other than a massive European victory, given the deficit they overcame?

Really unbelievable end to the event. I would have said yesterday morning that it was impossible for Europe to win. Not only did they have to dominate the top matches, they also needed wins from several of the players who didn't perform at all over the first two days. Somehow, it happened.

Poulter was incredible all weekend. If he could bring the same attitude to the Majors then he could do something special there too but in the Ryder Cup he is currently almost peerless.

I felt very sorry for both Furyk and Mickelson. I always considered Furyk to be one of the toughest and grittiest competitors in the game. Unfortunately, he has folded three times this year right at the death and he could find it very difficult to recover. Mickelson's defeat was more extraordinary. He hit several unbelievable clutch shots near the end and still lost. Several players made a mess of the chip from the back of 17. Phil had by far the hardest one and had no thought other than to hole it which he almost did. Credit to Justin Rose but Phil must have been left wondering what else he could have done.

SmithersJones wrote:Would anyone in their right mind have considered 14-14 anything other than a massive European victory, given the deficit they overcame?

That was my take on it also, the US would hardly be overjoyed with a 14-14 tie given they had a 10-4 lead with two fourball matches to complete on Saturday. The 0.5 point is pretty irrelevant, team Europe would still have celebrated as if it was a win and Team US would be just as bitterly disappointed. I still think however that Tiger should have putted and feel he has let his side down there, I don't view it as being gracious he's copped out as far as I'm concerned.

SmithersJones wrote:

John Cregan wrote:

Diggers wrote:I thought the climax was the Kaymer match, the final match was all a bit after the Lords Mayor show and hence thought the concession was a nice touch. But I guess you could see it either way.

Massive difference IMO between the Ryder Cup being a tie or one team winning it..................
Obviously the tie sits better with the team who are retaining, but for the history books etc, the difference is monumental...........being able to say "i was on the 2012 winning ryder cup team"................................

Would anyone in their right mind have considered 14-14 anything other than a massive European victory, given the deficit they overcame?

How would anyone in their right mind call a tied Ryder Cup 14-14 a European victory?? The US came from 14-10 down to tie the 1989 Ryder Cup at 14-14. They never claimed the victory because of coming from behind.........
A tie is a tie is a tie!!..................that's why obviously Molinari & Ollie were so up for it on the 18th, they wanted the win...............not sure why DL III didn't chat with Woods on 18 and ask for a big effort to hang on for a 14 all result.............

Just thought I'd offer the US media perspective which many of you probably see, but perhaps not all:

http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/pga-tour-confidential-europe-wins-ryder-cup-record-tying-sunday-comeback?page=4

A couple of points I disagree with:

~Everyone rabbits on about Love sitting down Phil and the Ritalin Kid on Saturday afternoon. But who would they have played instead of?

Woods and/or Stricker? Perhaps benching Stricker and teaming Bradley with Woods makes some sense, but can't see any US Captain telling Tiger to go to the cooler for a full day's play. (Apparently Peter Hanson told Olazabal exactly what he thought of being excluded . . . . )

All the other teams won except Zach and the Duff and no-one is suggesting they should have been replaced.


~Easy to say Stricker played poorly, which he ultimately did, but he spent the first match (foursomes) Friday bailing out Tiger from behind trees, toilets, you name it; first nine of fourballs not much better until Woods got his proverbial mojo going. A bit like Allenby getting criticised at last year's Presidents Cup after playing foursomes with Ogilvy - spent all his round trying to find Ogilvy's ball in the outback; not surprising they fought about that a week or so later.


Loved the question from a British journo asking Team USA at the press conference if any would talk about appealing to a higher being when their Team was getting shellacked - no response from the bible belt as their lord and saviour had failed them.

Gareth_NI wrote:

SmithersJones wrote:Would anyone in their right mind have considered 14-14 anything other than a massive European victory, given the deficit they overcame?

That was my take on it also, the US would hardly be overjoyed with a 14-14 tie given they had a 10-4 lead with two fourball matches to complete on Saturday. The 0.5 point is pretty irrelevant, team Europe would still have celebrated as if it was a win and Team US would be just as bitterly disappointed. I still think however that Tiger should have putted and feel he has let his side down there, I don't view it as being gracious he's copped out as far as I'm concerned.

When is a tie not a tie? Agree the USA would not be overjoyed but 14-14 is, erm......a tie !!!!

Birkdale 1969 Europe 16-16 USA
Belfry 1989 Europe 14-14 USA

No team ever claimed "victory" in these matches.........retention for the US in 69, retention for Europe in 89.......

John I'm not disagreeing with you, of course it would have still been a tie, but as Team Europe were down/out at 10-4 getting it to 14-14 they woul dhave been the only team celebrating... as if they won the match outright, you only have to look at how they celebrated Kaymers putt.

Retention is the main deal- its about having the cup.. winning is the bonus John

Webb Simpson faith must be tested. I'd give it up mate and stop wasting your time.

mystiroakey wrote:Retention is the main deal- its about having the cup.. winning is the bonus John

I get your point Mysti, but the way i see it, a tie is a tie..........and thank god it wasn't a tie!!

What id love to happen at 14-14 is each captain to pick a player to go sudden death for definitive result..........

Well I won 220 for the win. so i was doubly happy. The thing is that us watching it had allready celebrated and got exited over the retention that the win was an anti climax..

Do people still bet on the overall final score or on the results of some of the later singles games? If so, they must get seriously annoyed at what happens sometimes after the outcome is assured. I remember Paul McGinley conceeding a 30ft putt to halve his match against JJ Henry in 2006. Similar things have happended in other years also.

Well yeah I do..

but i did also back the draw(just at a lower price)- i normally take a few. but i bet in play and then lay bits inplay etc- things do change. so I like to do it on an exchange(like betfair)

Must admit I was tempted at 5-1 last night late on. But thats always the way with me, say to the missus I should have a bet here and then never do....

yeah you were wernt you! nothing wrong with the occasional flutter.. I am abit of an addict mind- but never big amounts. Just to keep things interesting!

The main problem with having the odds up all the time though is that the TV is delayed and i normally know what a player has done before i see it on telly!!

Diggers wrote:Must admit I was tempted at 5-1 last night late on. But thats always the way with me, say to the missus I should have a bet here and then never do....

I still regret not putting a tenner at 500-1 on Arsenal to go the season unbeaten ~12games in

kwinigolfer wrote:...10).And one more compelling reason to hope Europe win:
1991 Ryder Cup protagonist David Feherty has publicly stated he hopes Team USA win.
What a pr1ck.

I wonder how that bell-end is feeling today?

navyblueshorts wrote:

kwinigolfer wrote:...10).And one more compelling reason to hope Europe win:
1991 Ryder Cup protagonist David Feherty has publicly stated he hopes Team USA win.
What a pr1ck.

I wonder how that bell-end is feeling today?

Like the end of a bell no doubt, which is what he is. I kinda thought Butch Harmon filled the same role on the European side, he seemed to be rooting for the EU guys a lot during the coverage on sky.

Molinari said he thought about offering the half to Tiger on 18 fairway thus ending the match 14-14. Olly told him no, play on, it's not the same.

So imagine a quiz - perhaps in relation to 2012, maybe in a pub or on "A Question of Sport" in several years' time.

Q: Who holed the winning putt at the Ryder Cup in 2012?
A: ???

a. Martin Kaymer
b. Francesco Molinari
c. No one

(excluding wackier answers "in spirit" which might include Poulter, Olazabal, Ballesteros...)

The latest BBC blog quotes the ever-quotable Mr Westwood:

Lee Westwood was spot on when he suggested the qualifying categories going forward should be "nine qualifiers, two captain's picks and Poults."

Don't know if anyone has asked this already but how can Poulter be so awesome in the Ryder Cup, possibly the most high pressure event, and so ordinary in the Majors?

incontinentia wrote:Don't know if anyone has asked this already but how can Poulter be so awesome in the Ryder Cup, possibly the most high pressure event, and so ordinary in the Majors?

.

Its the big question isnt it. Comes down to this really....does he have huge cojones because he can do it in a team envirinment...or doers he not have the huge cojones people give him credit for because he actually needs a team environment to thrive and cant seal the deal on his own ? Same for Monty really at the end of the day.
I suspect though the main reason is that strokeplay isnt matchpaly and he is better in the matchplay format, simple as that.

yep he is just great at beating a one on one. But the truth is poulter is pound for pound the best golfer out there(in regards to maximising his ability)- There for he doesnt have the minerals to contest every major- because he isnt quite good enough to

I hope he gets in a final group in a major at some point- because Then he can show what he is made of.

We know he did brillinatly in the us open recently- he started off with 5 birdies final round to get in contention.

We know he holed the putt that could well have been for the open win(when poddy won)

In his mind at the time it was to win the open. That showed he has the minerals to convert.. But has he got the minerals to get lots of chances?

I love poulter and I respect him massively. But i have to admit there are better golfers out there.

All the same- there are 4 players I want to win a major equally!(i dont need to tell you how they are)- All have the quality to do that- and poulter is one of them

It is actually pretty simple as to why Poulter wont win a major, he cant put 4 stroke play rounds together under the highest pressure. Even in the Ryder cup one poor shot/hole does not necessarily cause much impact on the outcome, but in the majors one poor shot on Sunday can be the end of your challenge.

I think the thing is Mysti at the moment if you take Woods and Rory out of it (and really only Rory to be honest and he wont win every one) pretty much any player in the top 50 could win a major as there just isnt that much to seperate them.
And although the likes of Donald and Westwood are way better than most of the guys in the 50 because they havent cracked their duck yet and bacause they are excellent players the expectation....and therefore pressure....is that much higher and seems to stop them getting the job done.
Anyway although thats very long winded Id certainly agree right now Poulter has a chance of winning a major as he is one of that top 50.
But 50-1 is still pretty long odds.