British and Irish Lions Watch 2012-13

First topic message reminder :

This thread started many months back and has been a gradual examination of who is picking who for the impending Lions Tour.

Now the Six Nations is over and all we have left to judge is the HEC and the various national leagues.

Hines has been consistently excellent for Clermont this season and might just be exactly what the tour needs, he is a proper Enforcer and knows the ethos well having toured before.

Would he tour is asked though?

Hines isn't a bad shout at all actually.

Ryan won't be Captain for the reasons you state but please allow me to wind Cyril up. Not many options for Capt, and I'm wondering if Gats will do something strange and choose a Captain who's never been a regular Captain - An outside guess for me would be Sexton, assured of his place and mature beyond his years. That's where my £10 has gone

I still reckon not only will Robshaw tour but he'll take the captaincy too. Although I would be happy for Sexton to lead the Lions too.

Robshaw for me is totally unlike any English captain I can remember. Very talented, very composed and absolutely no ego.

He also does all the horrible work that only these days with dozens of cameras at the game and insightful analysis does his work get noticed.

For me he has been the player of the 6N followed very closely by Halfpenny & Picomoles.

Sexton for captain isn't daft at all. Clear favourite to start the Tests.

Another possible is Rory Best, based on the lack of real challenge at hooker (probably Hartley and Hibbard the other hookers to tour), although Jim Hamilton was able to make a mess of his lineout a couple of weeks ago.

There are sadly no Scots candidates, and I don't think there's an Englishman guaranteed of his place in the Test XV. Even the excellent Dan Cole faces stiff competition from a much improved Adam Jones.

The case for Sam Warburton has been enhanced, but he'll be up against Robshaw and SOB for the 7 jersey I suspect, plus I think Tom Wood will also tour. It would be a big call naming Warburton captain amongst that sort of competition, particularly given his mixed form this season.

I'd go for one of Rory Best or Jonathan Sexton at this stage.

Thing is, if you choose Robshaw, you get all the clones as well - at least 6 Robshaw's on the pitch each match!

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Hines has been consistently excellent for Clermont this season and might just be exactly what the tour needs, he is a proper Enforcer and knows the ethos well having toured before.

Would he tour is asked though?

On the basis that he jettisoned the chance to play in a Top 14 final to join the last Lions tour in time, I would say yes. Gatland could do a hell of a lot worse than ask him. A combination of Hines and Ian Evans would be hard as nail pie.

Of the scots? at the beginning of the six nations I thought and posted that a good few had a chance but needed a good series. Well none of them have really put their hands up apart from Hogg and Laidlaw. Not gonna be many scots on the plane now

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:Robshaw shouldn't be any where near the plane let alone the Lions, one of the most mentally weak captains i have ever seen in an English shirt.

He was clueless when Italy were in the ascendancy, you don't need players like that in Australia.
BOD
Ryan Jones
Warburton
any of them will be Captain, probably BOD with Ryan as the vice.

All the Welsh I met on Saturday were kind, gracious, humble and funny. I can only assume you did not go to the game or I didn't meet you.

It's posts/posters like this/that who are responsible for all the vile and rancid posts we have seen over the past few weeks.

+1

I still reckon from Scotland we have a chance for Grant, Brown, Beattie, Laidlaw, Maitland & Hogg.

Outside bets for Hines, Ford, Scott and Visser.

Gray is seriously doubtful with an anticipated 8 week lay off which is a shame for him and the lions.

I reckon most likely to start would be Brown and Hogg, beyond that it could be another disapointing year for representation for us.

However Brown, Beattie, Hines, Hogg and others will have a chance to impress for Sarries, Montpellier, Clermont and Glasgow in the HC and Rabo playoffs.

Other Scottish players are quickly running out of time to put their hands up.

viewtothegym wrote:Robshaw shouldn't be any where near the plane let alone the Lions, one of the most mentally weak captains i have ever seen in an English shirt.

He was clueless when Italy were in the ascendancy, you don't need players like that in Australia.
BOD
Ryan Jones
Warburton
any of them will be Captain, probably BOD with Ryan as the vice.

Have to agree, no Lions captain IMO. When Italy scored it was Flood who did all the talking under the posts, he also told Farrell to kick in one of the other games and was told no and Farrell is just a kid. When looking at these incidents and taking into account his general decision making during the AI when under pressure I feel like shouting NOOOOOO!!! and hope that Gats hears me.

The message is that the England players respect him and he leads by example, but do they? when things get tough it does not appear that he is the one they turn to for "leadership".

With respect to him being on the plane, that is an interesting shout. Personally I don't see him as much more than an honest grafter. Certainly, he picks up MOM awards just for putting his boots on. My feeling is that there are more talented players also capable of "putting in a shift" which is really all he does.

England, in common with all teams, have a whole leadership group. Different leaders for different situations, phases of play.

Flood was talking as the fly half & game manager. Farrel may well have been questioning whether he could make the kick - we don't know.

As to being an honest grafter - yes, he certainly is - and that's a bad thing?!

Picking up MOM awards for putting his boots on - have you watched any England matches? He's everywhere and involved in everything - that's why he wins MOM.

gregortree wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:Robshaw shouldn't be any where near the plane let alone the Lions, one of the most mentally weak captains i have ever seen in an English shirt.

He was clueless when Italy were in the ascendancy, you don't need players like that in Australia.
BOD
Ryan Jones
Warburton
any of them will be Captain, probably BOD with Ryan as the vice.

All the Welsh I met on Saturday were kind, gracious, humble and funny. I can only assume you did not go to the game or I didn't meet you.

It's posts/posters like this/that who are responsible for all the vile and rancid posts we have seen over the past few weeks.

+1

How is it a vile, rancid post? I dont and you might not agree with View but that doesnt make it alright to have a pop at him really does it?

It's not just that post but the dozens of others he has posted on numerous threads pre and post match against Scotland. This was the post that broke the camel's back.

Yeah - I used to think the majority of View's posts were vile and rancid but I changed my mind - now I just think they are funny

Robshaw was the leader in forcing turnoves amongst NH players in the AIs. He is good and (other than injury, obviously) I cannot envisage circumstances in which won't travel - particularly if he has a massive game against Wales with Tips and Warbuton in his face.

I really don't see how Robshaw can be ruled out on the basis of the Italy game, and yet BOD can be put forward after the Irish meltdown of leadership against Scotland.

Does he get a free pass just because he wasn't captain I wonder? Is he a better 13 than Manu Tuilagi?

Ryan Jones seems to be flavour of the month these days. Is he a better 6 than Tom Wood for Australian conditions? What if the great Dan Lydiate can walk by the summer, or Stephen Ferris. Tom Croft is now back and fit.

I still think the best candidate is Sexton, closely followed by Rory Best. We have to pick a Test starter as captain, and those are the two guys I think suitable to lead who will actually start the Tests. The remainder are all up for serious debate, as these posts can testify.

To be fair based on this weekend I think the Lions are luck it is a B&I thing and not a NH thing, otherwise there would probably be more Italians in there than anyone else, as realistically noboday really performed that well this weekend (or tournament to be fair).

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:It's not just that post but the dozens of others he has posted on numerous threads pre and post match against Scotland. This was the post that broke the camel's back.

Radge mate,

You cant blame View for all the rubbish that is posted on here to antagonise... At least he does have views on rugby, when others have no interest and just want to annoy other posters.

Give him the benefit of the doubt and ignore what you consider is purely insightful.

Considering his post though, as others had said, it was a valid point maybe voiced in an extreme way.

"it was a valid point maybe voiced in an extreme way"

Wouldn't that make it an extremely valid point

wickedwasp wrote:England, in common with all teams, have a whole leadership group. Different leaders for different situations, phases of play.

Flood was talking as the fly half & game manager. Farrel may well have been questioning whether he could make the kick - we don't know.

As to being an honest grafter - yes, he certainly is - and that's a bad thing?!

Picking up MOM awards for putting his boots on - have you watched any England matches? He's everywhere and involved in everything - that's why he wins MOM.

He is a back row player, being involved is kind of the base requirement, and I expect a little more from a Lions player, certainly one made captain and by virtue the first name on the teamsheet. And yes I do watch England's matches (anything to get out the house for a pint) and have genuinely scratched my head when Robshaw picks up yet another MOM.

He is the captain in a inexperienced side and should be the one the go to guy. England's WC winning side had a number of very experienced players, but at the end of the day I don't remember Martin Johnson seeking too much advice and certainly accepting dissention.

The guy is not a captain (except in name) yet and should not be considered for the Lions job IMO

RubyGuby wrote:"it was a valid point maybe voiced in an extreme way"

Wouldn't that make it an extremely valid point

Ha ha ha, maybe "Extremist" rather than "Extremely" mate...!

funnyExiledScot wrote:I really don't see how Robshaw can be ruled out on the basis of the Italy game, and yet BOD can be put forward after the Irish meltdown of leadership against Scotland.

Does he get a free pass just because he wasn't captain I wonder? Is he a better 13 than Manu Tuilagi?

Ryan Jones seems to be flavour of the month these days. Is he a better 6 than Tom Wood for Australian conditions? What if the great Dan Lydiate can walk by the summer, or Stephen Ferris. Tom Croft is now back and fit.

I still think the best candidate is Sexton, closely followed by Rory Best. We have to pick a Test starter as captain, and those are the two guys I think suitable to lead who will actually start the Tests. The remainder are all up for serious debate, as these posts can testify.

I think Robshaw is as good a candidate as any.

BOD isnt captain at the moment so cant really be criticised for being a bad captain based on losses in this campaign when he has done a good job any time he has been captain. Tuilagi hasnt exactly taken the 6N by storm has he? Been quiet enough and has dicipline issues.

I dont rate Ryan Jones. Very up and down player and never rated him as a captain. He tends to lose heart too easily for me.

Best is an option and wouldnt rule him out. Sexton could be a good captain but doesnt have enough experience as captain so it certainly wont be him.

I think the captaincy is frankly overplayed. Any team needs a number of strong leaders, and they shoulder responsibility as well (thus my point about BOD).

What is clear is that the annointed tour "captain" must start the Tests, or at least that is the conventional wisdom, so on that basis it surely has to be either Best or Sexton.

If you believe the captain of the tour must start the Tests, then the candidacy of both Warburton and Robshaw weakens.

"I dont rate Ryan Jones. Very up and down player and never rated him as a captain. He tends to lose heart too easily for me."

Guns, those are really bizarre comments, I respect your views but nothing could be further from the truth about Ryan. He had a bad spell 18 months ago coming back from injury but other than that he has been very consistent and has the maturity and experience that comes from winning 3 Slams. He certainly does not lose heart when playing - quite the opposite IMO

GunsGerms wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I really don't see how Robshaw can be ruled out on the basis of the Italy game, and yet BOD can be put forward after the Irish meltdown of leadership against Scotland.

Does he get a free pass just because he wasn't captain I wonder? Is he a better 13 than Manu Tuilagi?

Ryan Jones seems to be flavour of the month these days. Is he a better 6 than Tom Wood for Australian conditions? What if the great Dan Lydiate can walk by the summer, or Stephen Ferris. Tom Croft is now back and fit.

I still think the best candidate is Sexton, closely followed by Rory Best. We have to pick a Test starter as captain, and those are the two guys I think suitable to lead who will actually start the Tests. The remainder are all up for serious debate, as these posts can testify.

I think Robshaw is as good a candidate as any.

BOD isnt captain at the moment so cant really be criticised for being a bad captain based on losses in this campaign when he has done a good job any time he has been captain. Tuilagi hasnt exactly taken the 6N by storm has he? Been quiet enough and has dicipline issues.

I dont rate Ryan Jones. Very up and down player and never rated him as a captain. He tends to lose heart too easily for me.

Best is an option and wouldnt rule him out. Sexton could be a good captain but doesnt have enough experience as captain so it certainly wont be him.

I think Ryan Jones has proved an admirable captain recently, age and wisdom adding to experience as well as time of reflection on possible previous errors made.

Best is a good call but i am not sure he is certain of his place.

That is the largest mitigating factor in this squad selection. Maybe there should be a tour captain and a match day captain if the tour captain doesn't make the test XV...?

Of all the candidates mentioned as possibles to be captain, BOD, Warburton, Heaslip, Robshaw, Best, Brown, Sexton, Ryan Jones etc etc.. None of them are guaranteed to make the Test XV.

All right. I'll be captain. I didn't want it. But I'll do it for you guys.

George Carlin wrote:All right. I'll be captain. I didn't want it. But I'll do it for you guys.

Cheers GC...!

maestegmafia wrote:

George Carlin wrote:All right. I'll be captain. I didn't want it. But I'll do it for you guys.

Cheers GC...!

Phew - I was getting nervous.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

George Carlin wrote:All right. I'll be captain. I didn't want it. But I'll do it for you guys.

Cheers GC...!

Phew - I was getting nervous.

What can I say? I'm a Giver.

All this captaincy debate and GC was here all along? Why did we even bother with the thousands of threads discussing the very issue?

I feel like an idiot!

I think that in addition to appointing me captain, another mistake would be for us to think that the usual suspects will be whom we are definitely playing against. One look at the Sydney Morning Herald's Aussie team of the week reveals a lot of new faces, especially from the currently unbeaten young Brumbies team:

TEAM OF THE WEEK
1. Ben Alexander (Brumbies
2. Stephen Moore (Brumbies)
3. Dan Palmer (Brumbies)
4. Scott Fardy (Brumbies)
5. Rob Simmons (Reds)
6. Ben Mowen (Brumbies)
7. George Smith (Brumbies)
8. Jake Schatz (Reds)
9. Nic White (Brumbies)
10. Matt Toomua (Brumbies)
11. Digby Ioane (Reds)
12. Christian Lealiifano (Brumbies)
13. Anthony Faingaa (Reds)
14. Henry Speight (Brumbies)
15. Jesse Mogg (Brumbies)

Mogg, Smith and Speight in particular have been very impressive indeed.

Conversely, O'Connor had a crappy game at 10 and His Quadeness didn't really do anything much. We can expect this list to change a lot, obviously, but I think that the Lions test will see new players capped, even give Dingo's traditonal conservatism for new players.

How good can a player called "Jesse" be? Honestly.

funnyExiledScot wrote:How good can a player called "Jesse" be? Honestly.

Are you asking if someone can be a tough Jesse?

He doesn't even look like a particularly Big Jesse.

George Carlin wrote:He doesn't even look like a particularly Big Jesse.

So he's a wee Jesse?

maestegmafia wrote:

George Carlin wrote:He doesn't even look like a particularly Big Jesse.

So he's a wee Jesse?

I am genuinely undecided as to which would be worse.

Remember when the Scottish tipped Kelly Brown as a Lions Captain

viewtothegym wrote:Remember when the Scottish tipped Kelly Brown as a Lions Captain

Are you ruling Brown out already?

Scotland got a pasting on Saturday by the referee more than by Wales. Credit has to go them for maintaining even temperament under such subjection.

I think Wales won the breakdown, but I wouldn't write off any Scottish player over that game.

I don't see Brown as a favourite for captain, but I do think he is a great candidate for a squad spot.

Robshaws stats are massively flawed, most of his passes and meters run come from him catching the kick off,because England don't have a real number 8, he also seems a bit like Tom Croft "hangs around the wing instead of making the hard yards.
But this praise Robshaw has heaped on him doesn't surprise me, these are the same fans that thought Christopher Aston was Jesus in the second coming,
The same fans who now want Ashton out! the same fans who wanted Robshaw out before England beat a virus ridden All Blacks team.

Clueless the lot of ya.

maestegmafia wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:Remember when the Scottish tipped Kelly Brown as a Lions Captain

Are you ruling Brown out already?

Scotland got a pasting on Saturday by the referee more than by Wales. Credit has to go them for maintaining even temperament under such subjection.

I think Wales won the breakdown, but I wouldn't write off any Scottish player over that game.

I don't see Brown as a favourite for captain, but I do think he is a great candidate for a squad spot.

I don't he is awful

viewtothegym wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:Remember when the Scottish tipped Kelly Brown as a Lions Captain

Are you ruling Brown out already?

Scotland got a pasting on Saturday by the referee more than by Wales. Credit has to go them for maintaining even temperament under such subjection.

I think Wales won the breakdown, but I wouldn't write off any Scottish player over that game.

I don't see Brown as a favourite for captain, but I do think he is a great candidate for a squad spot.

I don't he is awful

Scotland haven't exactly helped Kelly Brown or themselves at the breakdown by playing him out of position.

Kelly Brown's best position is 6.Scotland need to start picking him there!

I think Scotland suffered by not picking the Killer Bs personally. It's Scotland's most balanced and best backrow combo yet most scottish fans and the coaches can't see it!

Backrow balance is so important in my opinion. It's something I don't think England have got quite right either hence the struggles to get quick ball.

England played at their best in the games vs NZ and Scotland of recent. Their backrow then was Wood,Robshaw and Morgan. This offered good balance.

viewtothegym wrote:Robshaws stats are massively flawed, most of his passes and meters run come from him catching the kick off,because England don't have a real number 8, he also seems a bit like Tom Croft "hangs around the wing instead of making the hard yards.
But this praise Robshaw has heaped on him doesn't surprise me, these are the same fans that thought Christopher Aston was Jesus in the second coming,
The same fans who now want Ashton out! the same fans who wanted Robshaw out before England beat a virus ridden All Blacks team.

Clueless the lot of ya.

Irony:
1 [ahy-ruh-nee, ahy-er-]
noun, plural i·ro·nies.

1.
the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning

Tattie
so maybe View's, meaning is he doesn't really want 35 Welsh in the Lions after all.

gregortree wrote:Tattie
so maybe View's, meaning is he doesn't really want 35 Welsh in the Lions after all.

And maybe he secretly admires Ashton, which if so, is a lot more than I do.

I'm with you Beshocked. To be fair to SJ and Ryan, at the start of the tournament we didn't have a fit 7, so someone was going to have to play out of position in the back row and they went for Brown. Not my choice, but I could see the logic.

Now that Barclay is fit, continuing to pick Brown at 7 is a nonsense. I have a horrible feeling that Strokosch may be picked against France at 6, with Brown at 7. A horrible feeling.

What are everyones thoughts on Jim Hamilton? He was good against Ireland but pretty weak against England and Wales. Very good in the lineout but can do some fairly strange things in general play such as the bizarre effort at a reverse pass v Wales or the apauling penalty he gave away at the end of the first half for an easy three points.

Not a tourist IMO.

Jims down the pecking order, I'm expecting both Eng and Wal locks with 1 Irish

Ianto and Launchbury to start for me at the moment