Haas has 500!

Despite taking almost 5 years from 2007 to 2012 to achieve 100 wins (from 400 to 500), he has shown a champions heart and steely determination. If healthy, he wants to play all of 2013 - a worthy goal.

Haas was presented a special Fiat 500 by tournament director Herwig Straka after becoming the 38th player in the Open Era to achieve the feat. He joins Roger Federer (871), Rafael Nadal (583) and Lleyton Hewitt (566) as the only active players to attain the milestone.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/News/Tennis/2012/10/42/Vienna-Thursday-Tipsarevic-Wins-Opener-Haas-In-Action.aspx

have a lot of respect for Tommy, his years out have given him the hunger for the game a man 10 years his junior has. He would have been a regular top 10 throughout his career for me, no question.

Slam? I can't see him sneaking one just because of the utter dominance of the big 4. But when people laugh at his number 2 ranking its highly disrespectful, I'm hoping they are getting it now with the 34 year old (oldest in the top 100) out classing most of the tour.

Yes credit to him for his notable achievement but lets not overdo the statements. He evidently is not out-classing 'most' of the tour by beating them otherwise he would be a habitual quarter/semi-finalist this year and be on course to end the year well inside the top ten which he hasn't been. He is on track to finish inside the top twenty this year but would agree he merits that position and is one of the most consistent players outside the top twenty. By the way I answered no to the poll question as he had a relatively injury free season in 2007 (year ending ranked 11), 2009 (year ending ranked 17) and this year (on course for year ending ranking of 20) and he never won a slam.

If you consider the stick that the likes of Nole, Murray, Ferrer and even Nadal get, Haas is grossly over-rated

The reason people 'laugh' at his number 2 ranking, is simply because it is hilariously funny that he could get to this position and an 8 time Masters Champion and serial Slam semi-finalist struggles to do so

But the real reason for the hilarity, is that the poking fun at Haas is only used when we have the myopic few who tell us that 2002 was better for Tennis than now

I'm full of respect for Haas - but let's not get carried away, his peak is the equivalent of Mardy Fish's of last year

If he'd "have been a regular top 10 throughout his career", who exactly would he have replaced, during the last 4 years?

You're 'full of respect' for the 'grossly-overated' Haas?

Interested that the poll only covers 2007-2012. Why not just ask if Haas could have won a slam at any time in his career if he had not had personal and health problems.

Calder I have posted a similar type thing on Haas a week or two ago. Yes Haas career has been blighted by injuries that have wiped out sometimes whole seasons but he has returned from injury to reach a similar level he had before so it can be presumed that the injuries have sufficiently cleared up. Now in the early part of his career (say 1997-2004) he reached two slam semis and won one Masters Cup and seven other titles. In the latter part of his career (when fit say 2005 to present) he has reached two slam semis in 2007 and 2009, won no Masters but has won six ATP titles. In short when fit I'd say his performance has remained pretty constant but whereas in the early 2000's he could reach No.2 in the world he can't nowadays. I'll leave you to work out why that is.

Have gone for a yes in this vote. If Tommy is having a reasonable season, including a final win v Fed, at the age of 34 then surely a fit, younger, version would at least have had a chance of GS success in earlier times.
Having said that it would STILL have taken something special from him given the top four we had/have had.
More broadly speaking, the 500 wins for Haas is a great achievement. Clearly, Djoko and Andy will reach this magic figure and no doubt eat up some of the distance between themselves and the game's greats in terms of career wins.
Not sure who else I'd pick to reach 500. Reckon Davydenko might be close (actually I've just looked him up and he appears to be 453 so he could do it).
Del Po is a candidate and Berdych and Tsonga could do it. May have missed some people out (Robredo?).
Fed, incidentally, should pass Johnny Mac's record (875 wins) in the next few weeks.

I dont really understand the timings in the poll here. Clearly he had much more chance of winning a slam from 2001-2006 than from 2007-2012. My recollection is he missed substantial chunks of those years, when he would have been in his prime and the competition was slightly weaker.

Actually Born Slippy, his really bad injury-plagued years were 2003 (a total write-off), 2008 (around half the season missed or more), 2010 (a virtual write off) and 2011 (a big part of the seaon written off). The gaps in between though he has remained competitive so when injury hasn't prevented him playing his level has been consistent.

Haas and his family had an accident in 2003.
He injured his shoulder, and rest of his family were badly hurt, so he had to take off substantial time to care for them.

After that he didn't really get back to his best.

JuliusHMarx wrote:You're 'full of respect' for the 'grossly-overated' Haas?

Yes. Anyone has to respect how he has comeback. However, that doesn't mean that he's always, in my opinion, being over-rated

Compare the amount of praise he gets compared to say David Ferrer

Haas plays the game who you would ideally coach a junior...perfect shots, abit like Federer. But he's had his problems and also his mental stregnth isnt at the same level but on a given day he's a match for anyone...anyone remember his 2-0 set lead at RG09 vs Federer? It was only his lack of mental strength that didnt bring him through,,,and this has been the problem for much of his career. If he had just been that little bit stronger upstairs he really could have been "some" player. As it is, he's a very talented guy who's done ok...perhaps a little bit of a "better Gasquet".

It Must Be Love wrote:Haas and his family had an accident in 2003.
He injured his shoulder, and rest of his family were badly hurt, so he had to take off substantial time to care for them.

That was the point I was trying to make. He was number 2 in 2002. Therefore without the accident he would have been expected to figure at the top of the game in the years following that. Limiting the poll to 2007-2012 brings back the eras discussion which has been done to death.

I will say that without all the problems he has had he would probably have won a slam a some point in his career.

Comon, Haas was a mental case, even if he had the game (which I doubt) he still didn't have it upstairs to win a slam.

sirfredperry wrote:Have gone for a yes in this vote. If Tommy is having a reasonable season, including a final win v Fed, at the age of 34 then surely a fit, younger, version would at least have had a chance of GS success in earlier times

I fail to see where on earth this opportunity would have arisen, in the time frame suggested. Murray had final wins and others against Fed and he still has only just won a major

The Top 4 (make that 5 with Ferrer) have been grossly under-praised for just how good they are as history will show

In other words, it's ridiculous to think that Haas could mix it up with the Top 4 at any time in the last 4 years - just because he looked good around the millenium

The reason why he looked so good around that time was simply because Fed was in the early development of his career, Nadal wasn't around. Safin, used to go on frequent mental walkabouts, Sampras was fading and Agassi had inconsistencies due to his chronic back problems

I think the question in the poll should start "would".

"Could" is similar to "might".

I don't agree with you at all Banb.
If not for his accident I believe he would have won 4-5 slams in the prime of his career (around 2003-2007). Apart from Fed there wouldn't have been much competition for him on HC and grass until 2008.

Remember he had a equal H2H with Fed before the accident, and was world number 2 at some point.
Mentally the accident nearly destroyed him, and physically his shoulder was badly damaged.

Well of course I cant say for sure whether he would progress to be a champion, but either way very fortunate for Roger though.

It Must Be Love wrote:... but either way very fortunate for Roger though.

This Roger bloke must be the luckiest player in history!

B'Brotam. I think it's Haas performances at 34 against what you quite rightly say is a quality field at the moment that have prompted this posting - not what he achieved as a much younger man.
No doubt Tommy will particularly cherish his win over Fed in front of his ain folk (as they say in Germany) at Halle this year. I think most would agree that it will be good to see him carry on for a while yet.

If he'd "have been a regular top 10 throughout his career", who exactly would he have replaced, during the last 4 years?

Tipsarevic who he destroyed in Shanghai.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:... but either way very fortunate for Roger though.

This Roger bloke must be the luckiest player in history!

JM I thought mods/admin weren't allowed to spy on 'private' messages.

Sorry ItMustBeLove I have to disagree. If we were to do a graph of Haas career whether it be on year ending rankings, career title wins, slam performances Etc there has been no fall off in standards when he has had a fit season. This is a clear indication that we are seeing him at what is generally his level. Able to reach the odd slam semis, good enough to win smaller titles but largely unable to impact on any ground-breaking way in the tennis scene. Okay he reached No. 2 but for how long and has he ever got remotely near that slot again during his longer bouts of fitness? No. A very talented player with great degree of durability and consistency but without that extra something to get him slam wins.

No, CC I don't think you understand the impact of the accident:
From his Wikipedia.

Haas was quickly rising to the top of the tennis ranks when his career was suddenly halted at no. 2 in the world by a tragic and severe accident that nearly claimed the lives of Haas's parents, leaving his father in a coma. Haas spent much of the 2002 year taking care of his family, instead of playing tennis. At the end of the lay-off from tennis because of his parent's accident, he seriously injured his shoulder, requiring a major operation. He was plagued by further injuries and related complications afterwards, and did not return to professional tennis fully until 2004. Before his parents' accident and his injuries, he had an impressive record against notable former, current, and future no. 1 ranked players: 3–0 against Andy Roddick, 5–5 against Pete Sampras, 2–1 against Roger Federer, 2–1 against Marat Safin, and 2–0 against Jim Courier.

After that, he dropped out of the top 100 for the next few years. Not a coincidence.
Of course I can't guarantee anything, but the likes of Federer and Roddick would have had their success seriously limited if not for this.

He did come back eventually, but he could never reach the levels he was at earlier, was not at his best and could not reach the top 10.

I do understand.check out his career stats and performances and since that accident he has still manage to achieve roughly the same as before the accident.i would take your point if there was a discernible drop off in year ending rankings/drop in titles won/slam performances but there has been none.

It Must Be Love wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:... but either way very fortunate for Roger though.

This Roger bloke must be the luckiest player in history!

JM I thought mods/admin weren't allowed to spy on 'private' messages.

I don't get it? We can't. I quoted your previous post.

Clearly the lay-off was tragic...but given he's come back and been playing for 8 years now you have to assume he's physically ok over that time. If he had the talent to win a slam I think he would have done by now.
The problem is that he's one of those guys who learnt the game under faster conditions and the slower surface game since 2003/4 just isnt suited to him...note his best results against top players come on quicker surfaces by and large.

A great player to watch though...and SHOULD have won a slam for his talent. But he wasnt talented enough upstairs...and thats what seperates these guys. For all those impressive H2Hs...what has he done in slams though? Its one thing to beat someone in a 250, but another in a Masters, or even a slam.

Spot on lydian. You do frequently get players like that in the game. We may have similar-type players like that in the game now such as Dolgopolov or Cilic as in players who win titles, go deep in a handful of slams and, can hold down a consistent top twenty place but never quite look like making that final step.

Yep quite CC. Since 2004 he's got to 2 slam semis, and 1 Masters semi.
That isnt great is it.
Didnt Sampras beat him in an exho in 2008 as well (San Jose)? He also beat him in his last pro event - 2002 USO - convincingly.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/tennis/news/story?id=3254641

JuliusHMarx wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:... but either way very fortunate for Roger though.

This Roger bloke must be the luckiest player in history!

JM I thought mods/admin weren't allowed to spy on 'private' messages.

I don't get it? We can't. I quoted your previous post.

I said he was fortunate Haas dropped out like he did, not that he was the luckiest player.
Nevermind.. must have been a coincidence.

CaledonianCraig wrote:I do understand.check out his career stats and performances and since that accident he has still manage to achieve roughly the same as before the accident.

Not really.
He was world number 2, and after the accident quickly dropped out of the top 300. After he came back he never managed to return to his same levels (he never reached top 10 after the accident).

lydian wrote: But he wasnt talented enough upstairs...and thats what seperates these guys.

Yes that's another reasonable explanation as well.
It wasn't just that he got injured, he might not have had the mentality to be a champion. In-fact in the mid-naughties there was a severe lack of players who had the mental fortitude of a champion.

It Must Be Love wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:I do understand.check out his career stats and performances and since that accident he has still manage to achieve roughly the same as before the accident.

Not really.
He was world number 2, and after the accident quickly dropped out of the top 300. After he came back he never managed to return to his same levels (he never reached top 10 after the accident).

He was No.2 for about a month and before his accident and slid down out of the top ten BEFORE the tragic accident that ruled him out of the game for a year or so. Obviously he is going to dip into the lower reaches (IRC Del Potro dipped into the 200's when out with his injury) but he climbed back up again but never reached the heights of number two again. Perhaps because by that time the new kids were on the block (Nadal, Djokovic and Murray and Federer was well established). Everything else though has remained consistent ie tournament wins, slam record and year ending ranking...no change he has maintained the same career stats. He is, like I said, just one of those very consistent players who outwith the top twenty is about the most consistent player around. Even today's generation may have the makings of a Haas in the form of Dolgopolov or Cilic where they flirt with greatness but never quite achieve it.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:I do understand.check out his career stats and performances and since that accident he has still manage to achieve roughly the same as before the accident.

Not really.
He was world number 2, and after the accident quickly dropped out of the top 300. After he came back he never managed to return to his same levels (he never reached top 10 after the accident).

He was No.2 for about a month and before his accident and slid down out of the top ten BEFORE the tragic accident that ruled him out of the game for a year or so.

No you've got your facts wrong here.
He was number 2 before his family were involved in an accident, father was in a coma. This was when he was world number 2.
He took out a few months to take care of his family. Then when he was coming back he injured his shoulder, and was out again, eventually dropping out of the top 300.

That said, even though I think the accident of his family and then his shoulder injury affected him badly, I can't say for sure whether he had the right mentality to be a Champion anyway.
As I said in the mid-naughties there was a severe lack of players who had the mental fortitude of a champion.

Yes I know he was and his form dipped BEFORE his accident. He had dipped out of the top ten before his accident. Obviously, he was going to dip to 300 after a year out but by September 2007 he had got back up to number 11. He never recaptured the heights of number two perhaps because by that time Nadal, Djokovic, Murray, Tsonga etc had all arrived on the scene. His basic stats have remained consistent thoughwhen he has been fit and playing ie rankings, year ending rankings, career title wins and slam record.

It Must Be Love wrote:As I said in the mid-naughties there was a severe lack of players who had the mental fortitude of a champion.

That was true up to the end of 2010, surely?

JuliusHMarx wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:As I said in the mid-naughties there was a severe lack of players who had the mental fortitude of a champion.

That was true up to the end of 2010, surely?

It is true of any era throughout tennis.

CaledonianCraig wrote:He was No.2 for about a month and before his accident and slid down out of the top ten BEFORE the tragic accident that ruled him out of the game for a year or so.

I'm not sure why you still stick with this line CC. You seem a very reasonable balanced poster, and I've agreed with the majority of things you've said in the past, but I'm afraid he didn't drop out of the top 10 before his accident.
Accident date: June 8th 2002- http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/19/sports/tennis-haas-struggles-to-refocus-after-his-parents-accident.html

ATP Ranking on June 8th 2002: 3 http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Ha/T/Tommy-Haas.aspx?t=rh
Ranking at the start of 2004: 1,086.

It Must Be Love wrote:That said, even though I think the accident of his family and then his shoulder injury affected him badly, I can't say for sure whether he had the right mentality to be a Champion anyway.
As I said in the mid-naughties there was a severe lack of players who had the mental fortitude of a champion.

Really, what do internet posters know about the mental qualities of a world champion?

We're all just spectators on the outside looking on, guessing what is going on.

It Must Be Love wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:He was No.2 for about a month and before his accident and slid down out of the top ten BEFORE the tragic accident that ruled him out of the game for a year or so.

I'm not sure why you still stick with this line CC. You seem a very reasonable balanced poster, and I've agreed with the majority of things you've said in the past, but I'm afraid he didn't drop out of the top 10 before his accident.
Accident date: June 8th 2002- http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/19/sports/tennis-haas-struggles-to-refocus-after-his-parents-accident.html

ATP Ranking on June 8th 2002: 3 http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Ha/T/Tommy-Haas.aspx?t=rh
Ranking at the start of 2004: 1,086.

Ah right sources I am looking at are wrong then as they are saying that Haas carried on playing up until the end of 2002 and his break from the game came in 2003.

Redharry wrote:
Really, what do internet posters know about the mental qualities of a world champion?

Well some posters were suggesting that Haas didn't have the mental fortitude of a world champion, and I think that's very possible.

btw I did an article on the possible impact of the mental aspect of tennis, if you have views feel free to comment on them
https://www.606v2.com/t34993-how-much-of-tennis-is-played-in-the-mind

He carried on playing though as far as I can see and his loss of focus (for want of a better word) saw him slip out of the top ten and was to then be out for all of 2003 when his ranking dipped to 300+. However, it still doesn't change anything. His career stats pre-accident match up pretty similarly with post-accident stats ie titles won (virtually identical), year ending rankings (very similar) and slam record (very similar).

It Must Be Love wrote:

Redharry wrote:
Really, what do internet posters know about the mental qualities of a world champion?

Well some posters were suggesting that Haas didn't have the mental fortitude of a world champion, and I think that's very possible.

btw I did an article on the possible impact of the mental aspect of tennis, if you have views feel free to comment on them
https://www.606v2.com/t34993-how-much-of-tennis-is-played-in-the-mind

I don't think anyone who hasn't competed at anything at the top level has a clue about what it involves.

Redharry wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:

Redharry wrote:
Really, what do internet posters know about the mental qualities of a world champion?

Well some posters were suggesting that Haas didn't have the mental fortitude of a world champion, and I think that's very possible.

btw I did an article on the possible impact of the mental aspect of tennis, if you have views feel free to comment on them
https://www.606v2.com/t34993-how-much-of-tennis-is-played-in-the-mind

I don't think anyone who hasn't competed at anything at the top level has a clue about what it involves.

No but considering how Murray was called mentally weak for losing four slam finals then Haas has to have some fault as he has never reached a slam final.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Redharry wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:

Redharry wrote:
Really, what do internet posters know about the mental qualities of a world champion?

Well some posters were suggesting that Haas didn't have the mental fortitude of a world champion, and I think that's very possible.

btw I did an article on the possible impact of the mental aspect of tennis, if you have views feel free to comment on them
https://www.606v2.com/t34993-how-much-of-tennis-is-played-in-the-mind

I don't think anyone who hasn't competed at anything at the top level has a clue about what it involves.

No but considering how Murray was called mentally weak for losing four slam finals then Haas has to have some fault as he has never reached a slam final.

Whatever Murray is called by someone with no understanding of top flight competition as no bearing on Tommy Haas. There is no connection.

Redharry wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Redharry wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:

Redharry wrote:
Really, what do internet posters know about the mental qualities of a world champion?

Well some posters were suggesting that Haas didn't have the mental fortitude of a world champion, and I think that's very possible.

btw I did an article on the possible impact of the mental aspect of tennis, if you have views feel free to comment on them
https://www.606v2.com/t34993-how-much-of-tennis-is-played-in-the-mind

I don't think anyone who hasn't competed at anything at the top level has a clue about what it involves.

No but considering how Murray was called mentally weak for losing four slam finals then Haas has to have some fault as he has never reached a slam final.

Whatever Murray is called by someone with no understanding of top flight competition as no bearing on Tommy Haas. There is no connection.

So how would you define why Haas never won a slam? Out of interest that is - welcome to the board by the way.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Yes credit to him for his notable achievement but lets not overdo the statements. He evidently is not out-classing 'most' of the tour by beating them otherwise he would be a habitual quarter/semi-finalist this year and be on course to end the year well inside the top ten which he hasn't been. He is on track to finish inside the top twenty this year but would agree he merits that position and is one of the most consistent players outside the top twenty. By the way I answered no to the poll question as he had a relatively injury free season in 2007 (year ending ranked 11), 2009 (year ending ranked 17) and this year (on course for year ending ranking of 20) and he never won a slam.

Most of the tour are outside the top 20. Evidently he is out-classing most of the tour.