Pro12 Round 8; Ulster vs Edinburgh

First topic message reminder :

Well, the Pro12 picks up at Ravenhill on Friday night under the shadow of the impending test matches and it's because of those this match is pretty hard to call right now. Ulster are heavy favourites on form, but there's a joker in the deck; a lot will depend on what players are released from their respective national squads for the weekend

Ulster are missing 14 players from their regular squad- either to Ireland duty or injury- and a number of niggling injury worries has meant players we might normally expect to get back haven't been released.

Ulster XV & replacements to face Edinburgh, RaboDirect PRO12, Friday 2nd November, Ravenhill (7.05pm):
(15-9): R Andrew; C Cochrane, J Payne, P Wallace, C Gilroy; R Pienaar, P Marshall;
(1-8): C Black, N Brady (capt), J Afoa, L Stevenson, N McComb, S Ferris, M McComish, R Wilson;
Replacements (16-23): N Annett, R Lutton, A Macklin, R Diack, N Williams, N O'Connor, S Olding, P Nelson.

Unavailable for selection (14):
Rory Best, Tommy Bowe, Tom Court, Darren Cave, Chris Farrell, Declan Fitzpatrick, Iain Henderson, Chris Henry, Paddy Jackson, Luke Marshall, Paddy McAllister, Johann Muller, Andrew Trimble, Dan Tuohy.

There's an element of rotation with Jared Payne moving to outside centre to allow Ricky Andrew to make his full Ulster debut at fullback and Roger Wilson making his first Ulster start in four years- the impressive Nick Williams will surely enjoy wreaking havoc form the bench in the second half. Whilst Ulsters depth has improved tenfold in recent times, this is a much weakened side- even if it does have a spine of experience (Brady, Afoa, Ferris, Wilson, Pienaar, Wallace, Payne).

However, Edinburgh themselves are missing 10 to the Scottish squad- Geoff Cross, David Denton, Ross Ford, Allan Jacobsen, Ross Rennie, Nick De Luca, Lee Jones, Greig Laidlaw, Matt Scott and Tim Visser are all taking part in preparations for Scotlands clash with New Zealand on the 11th November. Stuart McInally and Grant Gilchrist have been released to face Ulster this weekend.

Edinburgh team:

1 Yapp
2 Titterell
3 Nel
4 Gilchrist
5 McAlipne
6 Cox (Capt)
7 Grant
8 McInally
9 Leck
10 Hunter
11 Brown
12 King
13 Houston
14 Jones
15 Tonks

Subs Walker, Jacobson, Niven, VDV, Watson, Rees, Fife, Visser jnr

The absence of 21 players to either Scotland or Ireland plus injuries gives both teams a fairly unfamiliar look, with the honours likely to go to the side who adapts best.

Marshall had a very solid game, and generally his game has come on leaps and bounds since Pienaar arrived. It is ridiculous to say he's not Test class when he has never played Test rugby. Ireland aren't replete with Test class scrummies so he deserves his chance just as much as the rest of them (including Marmion).

By far the biggest disappointment of the night was when Gilroy gave Edinburgh a sniff by getting caught in possession. That was a Test disqualifying decison and undid all his magic going forward.

I was surprised at Wilson getting MOTM as both McComish and McComb did more in the pack and Pienaar again was excellent running the show behind them.

Thank flip, thought I was on my own on Marshall....

That was terrible howler by Gilroy but his attacking play was sensational all night. For me (watching at home) he and Payne were comfortably the best players followed by maybe Pienaar, Marshall and McComb and then maybe Wilson. Williams had a big impact and Diack did well at lock.

I actually said to the guy beside me at half time that I thought Wilson would be MOM just because it was his comeback. I do have to say he did have a very solid game. The sort of performances he was putting in for Saints week on week. What a splendid signing though.

I don't think he is international class lads. The only thing is I'm an old fashioned kind of guy, if you are playing well you deserve a chance to prove yourself. So let us see him in action.

Also agreed on Gilroy. That said still a country mile ahead of Zebo. A country mile is longer than a mile you see, cause its the country hi.

The Great Aukster wrote:Marshall had a very solid game, and generally his game has come on leaps and bounds since Pienaar arrived. It is ridiculous to say he's not Test class when he has never played Test rugby. Ireland aren't replete with Test class scrummies so he deserves his chance just as much as the rest of them (including Marmion).

By far the biggest disappointment of the night was when Gilroy gave Edinburgh a sniff by getting caught in possession. That was a Test disqualifying decison and undid all his magic going forward.

I was surprised at Wilson getting MOTM as both McComish and McComb did more in the pack and Pienaar again was excellent running the show behind them.

Agree and disagree aukster. Spot on regards Gilroy and I agree we don't know about marshall at test level but there were a few passes over head height, a few he juggled before passing and numerous he took 3and 4 steps out of before passing. The one thing his pass never lacks is zip mind you.

McComish and McComb worked hard but with less quality than Wilson IMO. I mentioned previously but grant targetted him with a vengeance at every kick off and every time he bulldozed him.

Rava

You may well be right with ferris but I worry about his longevity?
I'm going to defend Zebo as well. He has been very good thus far all season and is starting !

Stand I do agree with you regarding Ferris's longetivity but I did say a year and a half ago I didn't think there was another season in him. He has proved me wrong so here's hoping

By the way it was nice to see Cave, Trimble and Henry at the game and on the pitch at half time with the kids

Didn't even notice that rava.

Alas, I don't think you are far wrong regarding ferris

Just watched the game again.

Anyone else notice the tackle on Annett about 2-3 mins from full time?

I saw it in real time but watching the replay made me think even more that the citing officer might take an interest. Depends on who he is I suppose and how hard he looks but it seems to me they have been pretty hard on that stuff this season.

Not sure.

Watched it again on iplayer there and you just catch it on the left side of the screen at 77 mins plus. You see it again on the replay they show just after from a different angle.

If the citing guy saw it I think he will refer it.

I think you all must be kidding me on Paul Marshall. It doesn't matter if you do some stuff exceptionally well if you're basics let you down and/or you make horribly stupid mistakes. His first ten minutes were as bad as you'll see anywhere. Cost us 7 points with a stupid fumble in our 22, passing too players ankles, telegraphed box kicking and strange decision making at the base...

His quick thinking directly created two of the tries (or was it 3). I think he is playing exceptional rugby. His service is quicker than Pienaars (who had a super game too at 10) and he's thriving under the new attacking style of play.

He's the best box kicker I've seen in a long time, every box kick (bar one charged down was spot on height and distance wise). Contrast Murray or TOL who frequently kick too far giving no chance for the chasers and Stringer who often gets charged down because he's too slow and doesn't get enough height on the kicks. Decision making he was spot on.

Marshall for me has been one of our best players this season. His game has came on leaps and bounds under Pienaar and for me he's the form Irish scrum half right now and playing very consistent rugby.

Hi guys, new to the forum but been following it for a while. Really enjoyed the game last night although thought we lacked a bit of intensity first half but good to see this picked up. Thought the line out was weak last night and so was the high ball. The young guy Ricky Andrew was all over the place with his positioning first half and made hard work of the fullback position IMHO. Payne was outstanding again and his interplay with glory was fantastic. Those two seem to have a real understanding.
Have to agree with the comments about Marshall as well. Pienaar is on a different planet when it comes to scrum half play and although marshy has been fantastic for us over the last 12 months ruan and Jackson have to start the big games.

Welcome sir!

...just to clarify when I say Marshall is the form Irish scrum half..I would still have him just behind Murray and Reddan for the AIs based on experience.

I think Marshall has done enough over the past 12 months to earn some game time in the AIs, certainly against Fiji at a minimum.

He's putting serious pressure on Murray and (the also very underrated) Reddan.

I dont disagree rodders..... BUT...

The things Marshall did well last night, like the quick tap etc you would be crucified for doing at international level. Its great against one of the poorer teams in the Pro12 but against an international team you get turned over 99.9 % of the time.

His box kicking was good last night even if he took too long about it at times. There was one in the first half over on the terrace side he got criticised for but in reality if cochrane had of waited and hit his man we would have had a lineout. Thats the difference between cochrane and trimble though.

i felt he was playing for Kidneys benefit for the first 40 or so and it showed. He had flashes of brilliance but there was moer than enough for Kidney to think..... nah!

The reality is there is a paucity of top class 9's in irish rugby but Marmion is looking a very good bet. Ultimately i dont think paul will make it, although i wouldnt mind seeing him against Fiji.

Stand if we were ruling guys out for mistakes then Gilroys international career is dead in the water after last night.

You (not literally) can't slaughter Marsh for every mistake and then turn a blind eye to other guys.

I don't think Marshall fits the current Irish system, nor is he the kind of scrum half Kidney likes, and he didn't really fit the set piece orientated game Ulster have been playing over the past few seasons but this fast paced, attack orientated game Anscombe has us playing is made for Marshall.

He now has quick thinking players like Payne and Williams around him who are alert to the quick tap and half breaks and it is a joy to watch those guys in tandem and everyone embracing this high risk, fast paced offloading style and Marshall is a key part of that.

Inside_shoulder wrote:Hi guys, new to the forum but been following it for a while. Really enjoyed the game last night although thought we lacked a bit of intensity first half but good to see this picked up. Thought the line out was weak last night and so was the high ball. The young guy Ricky Andrew was all over the place with his positioning first half and made hard work of the fullback position IMHO. Payne was outstanding again and his interplay with glory was fantastic. Those two seem to have a real understanding.
Have to agree with the comments about Marshall as well. Pienaar is on a different planet when it comes to scrum half play and although marshy has been fantastic for us over the last 12 months ruan and Jackson have to start the big games.

I'm afraid we have no place for people like you on this thread- your comments make too much sense and are much too considered. All correct. Ricky Andrew was generally horrific I have to say and looked completely out of his depth. Maybe he'll improve over time but he's set the bar so low he can hardly be worse.

where have i absolved Gilroy, rodders?

I agree i think that stupid penalty he gave away will be taken into account far more than his brilliant run or his general play. Its why Anscombe has picked Trimble and will retain Trimble on his return.

Zebo has been very, very solid for Munster this season. hasnt scored the same amount maybe but gives very little away.

For me though when everyone is back its Pienaar, jackson with marshall benching.

Hmm aye Andrew was shaky at the back all right....but he did some ok things in attack...boys will be boys I suppose and it wasn't the worst debut I've ever seen.

Fullback is a bit of a worry though as behind Payne there's a fair drop of in quality, although Nelson did well on the wing early in the season.

Anyone else think Payne looks better in the center? Is there any merit in looking at a back 3 of Gilroy, Bowe, Trimble with Payne at 13?

That's not a dig at our current center partnership, who are in pretty decent form, but I think the above four are by far our most potent backs.

Standulstermen wrote:where have i absolved Gilroy, rodders?

You haven't which is why I put the comment in brackets, it was a general comment towards the criticism Marsh gets. Sorry it wasn't aimed at 'you'.

Agree Jackson (who has been superb) and the demi-god that is Pienaar is my starting combo too but I can say with a straight face that Marshall is putting real pressure on both and I think we'll see a bit of rotation there over the season.

N.B. I wasn't having a dig at Gilroy, who I'd have in the Ireland squad in a flash. He's right up there with Trimble, Bowe and the also unfairly critcised (not by you) Zebo.

Awk now Rodders, I greatly enjoy giving Sin and DOD a taste of their own medicine for ruining all the Irish threads. I like Zebo, I think he is going to be awesome. I just think Gilroy is slightly better in nearly every department. Both have to improve their games for sure, Zebo is probably a bit weak positionally which makes his defence look slightly worse than it actually is. He gets caught out of position a bit too often- in reality he's a pretty good tackler. Gilroy is probably better postionally but not quite as good a tackler. Between Zebo, Gilroy and Kearney we are looking good for the future.

Though if Zebo doesn't pull his socks up I'm going to chop his legs off.

Rodders 100% serious Ireland XV (03/11/12) :

1 Healy 2 Strauss 3 Ross
4 Ryan 5 Touhy
6 Henderson 8 Heaslip 7 Henry
9 Marshall 10 Sexton
11 Zebo 12 Trimble 13 Bowe 14 Gilroy
15 O'Payne

Oooh can we have our very own Killer B's now??

Anyone for the Hellish H's??

rodders wrote:Stand if we were ruling guys out for mistakes then Gilroys international career is dead in the water after last night.

You (not literally) can't slaughter Marsh for every mistake and then turn a blind eye to other guys.

Yeah, I think Gilroy was class in parts but giving away that three points? I was furious at the time! Thats why he's behind Bowe and Trimble. Kind of thing he needs to improve if he wants to earn a cap. But that was pretty much it. The rest of his game was top class, insanely good assist for Jared Payne. He deserved his try.

Players do make mistakes, even the very best. Marshall just makes too many, too frequently. A bit like Paddy Wallace, the things he's good at won't make a difference to this Ireland side because no-one will really be on his wavelength. And his probing around the ruck is more likely to result in turnovers in test rugby than line breaks.

Another thing; I can't remember the last game I went to where both placekickers had 100% records.

Notch wrote:

rodders wrote:Stand if we were ruling guys out for mistakes then Gilroys international career is dead in the water after last night.

You (not literally) can't slaughter Marsh for every mistake and then turn a blind eye to other guys.

Yeah, I think Gilroy was class in parts but giving away that three points? I was furious at the time! Thats why he's behind Bowe and Trimble. Kind of thing he needs to improve if he wants to earn a cap. But that was pretty much it. The rest of his game was top class, insanely good assist for Jared Payne. He deserved his try.

Players do make mistakes. Marshall just makes too many, too frequently. A bit like Paddy Wallace, the things he's good at won't make a difference to this Ireland side because no-one will really be on his wavelength. And his probing around the ruck is more likely to result in turnovers in test rugby than line breaks.

Aren't we being hyper-critical here lads. The guy made a mistake and it cost three points. It's hardly a hanging offence. I'm sure if you look back over the past few weeks games both Bowe and Trimble have made mistakes.
I honestly can't believe some of the things you guys write on here sometimes! Baffles me.

I was just annoyed at the time Rava, not now. I get very involved in the game when I'm watching it. Gilroy was excellent.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20191636

I'm loving Mark Anscombes work- hard man to please.

No worries Notch. I know how you are at a game. Iv'e stood beside you haven't I?

I just read some of the comments on here sometimes and think we are being far too critical. Just my opinion though. Carry on.

I'm signing off now until at least after the AI's. If the Ulster threads are bad then the Irish threads are like kangaroo courts.

Cheers

New to posting, but a frequent reader of these boards.

Just watched the game on i-player and it was a real curates egg, brilliant in some parts, pretty awful in others. Seems very strange to say after a TBP win. Marshall was good and bad, Gilroy good apart from the ridiculous attempt to run out of the 22 with no support both as stated frequently above. I thought McCombe and McCombish deserve some credit. They weren't superstars but coming into this season I really worried about games where we would have to field them both.

CCredit to Mr Anscombe for moving the whole team forward this year.

On the subject of Marshall, the guy is very fortunate to be playing behind that Ulster pack.
Put him behind that Edinburgh pack and he would be out of his depth.
Believe me, I have watched him for years and he cannot handle it on the back-foot.

Yeah, we are a bit I suppose. I'm loving this season though, no matter how it comes across.

I guess I just know that whilst Ulster are a very good team now, we can get even better! I can see lots of places we can improve further still.

I very much agree with you unclear, especially regarding McComb and McComish. They've been reborn.

Here are a few other points;

-Andrew was solid under the high ball and carried well, but has a good way to go to make a Pro12 fullback yet. Congratulations to him on his first start, and to Ricky Lutton on his debut off the bench. Good also to see Olding and Nelson getting some pitch time. Neither Olding nor Nelson looked at all out of place, I have high hopes for both.
-O'Connor was awful when he came on at first- standing way too deep and kicking poorly- but when he returned to the pitch and the game was won he started standing flat, running at the gainline and actually provided a glorious flyhalfs assist to Payne for the fifth try. He was very good in his second spell. Why the transformation? Is it because the pressure was off and the game won when he returned? A real curiousity, Niall O'Connor.
-Pienaar is class, from jubblies to toes, his reading of the game is world class.

Anscombe's squad rotation has been superb. No longer get the shakes when I see McComb and McComish in the team. Any news on Stevenson?

I always like McComb from his first cap, albeit he has improved massively- McComish on the other hand looks like a new player entirely!

Notch wrote:I very much agree with you unclear, especially regarding McComb and McComish. They've been reborn.

Here are a few other points;

-Andrew was solid under the high ball and carried well, but has a good way to go to make a Pro12 fullback yet. Congratulations to him on his first start, and to Ricky Lutton on his debut off the bench. Good also to see Olding and Nelson getting some pitch time. Neither Olding nor Nelson looked at all out of place, I have high hopes for both.
-O'Connor was awful when he came on at first- standing way too deep and kicking poorly- but when he returned to the pitch and the game was won he started standing flat, running at the gainline and actually provided a glorious flyhalfs assist to Payne for the fifth try. He was very good in his second spell. Why the transformation? Is it because the pressure was off and the game won when he returned? A real curiousity, Niall O'Connor.
-Pienaar is class, from jubblies to toes, his reading of the game is world class.

Could it be because he was playing with Pienaar instead of Marshall when he came back on?

He does have the tendancy to stand far too deep and he certainly did that when he came on as a blood sub for Pienaar but I think Ruan encouraged him to get flatter when he came on for Marshall. I don't know whether he was telling him get flat or he just felt more confident or even just that Ruan is so good that he gives the 10 more time on the ball so he can get flatter?

Or maybe it was just that the game was won.

No idea but the change was very noticable.

I'm gonna leave you Ulster lot to it - well done on the win and thanks for being gracious and good sports as always!

Here's hoping we can make the return leg more competitive!

RDW!

It WILL get better.

After Bradley leaves it will. Edinburghs current run of results won't look unfamiliar to Connacht fans, nor would last seasons efforts in the league. All the sides he's coached pretty much look like this. Porous.

Still, masses of potential in Edinburgh. Just need to find the right coaching ticket to unlock it.

Notch wrote:After Bradley leaves it will. Edinburghs current run of results won't look unfamiliar to Connacht fans, nor would last seasons efforts in the league. All the sides he's coached pretty much look like this. Porous.

Still, masses of potential in Edinburgh. Just need to find the right coaching ticket to unlock it.

Look at Glasgow, worse players, better coached. Even if Edinburgh's back were dreadful, which they certainly aren't, a full strength pack should be the match of any team in the Rabo. It isn't at present. Competent coaching could turn Edinburgh into a far better team.

I wouldn't say Glasgow have worse players... More like the wrong choices from the management, who are slowly learning... And plenty of teams would love to have the Glasgow pack.... Even Ulster found it tough against them!

Edinburgh on paper are stronger than Glasgow and their backrow is as good an anyones....on paper. Glasgow are better coached, have a coherent gameplan and usually execute it well. Thats the lesson Edinburgh need to learn. Competent coaching and good players will bring success. If Michael Bradley wasn't good enough for Connacht how on earth did he get the job in the first place?

Rava wrote:
I just read some of the comments on here sometimes and think we are being far too critical. Just my opinion though. Carry on.

I'm signing off now until at least after the AI's. If the Ulster threads are bad then the Irish threads are like kangaroo courts.

Cheers

+ 1

...apart from the signing off bit maybe.....

Really? Head to head I'd give it to Glasgow, if we discount injuries

1. Grant vs Yapp - Grant
2. McArthur vs Ford - Ford, just
3. Cusack vs Nel - Cusack
4. Swinson vs Gilchrist - Tie
5. Kellock vs Cox - Kellock
6. Harley vs Denton - Denton
7. Barclay vs Rennie - Tie
8. Strauss vs Talei - Tie

9. Matawalu vs Rees - Matawalu
10. Jackson vs Laidlaw - Laidlaw
11. Lamont vs Visser - Tie
12. Horne vs Scott - Tie
13. Dunbar vs De Luca - Tie
14. Seymour vs Jones - Seymour
15. Hogg vs Tonks - Hogg

6 to Glasgow
6 ties
3 for Edinburgh

Still think Edinburgh are better?

Notch wrote:After Bradley leaves it will. Edinburghs current run of results won't look unfamiliar to Connacht fans, nor would last seasons efforts in the league. All the sides he's coached pretty much look like this. Porous.

Still, masses of potential in Edinburgh. Just need to find the right coaching ticket to unlock it.

Is it Bradley? It couldn't be just him, I mean they reached a HC final only last year, it has to be something deeper.

Hook,

where do you get the worse players better coached from? There is not one of those MFLs I would take at Glasgow. That include Visser who is way overrated. DTH vdM is a much better rugby player. Edinburgh are utter gash and Robinson can keep the rubbish he insists on playing from them. Also Townsend is a good coach ! Are you totally insane ?

Hope that clears that up

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:Really? Head to head I'd give it to Glasgow, if we discount injuries

1. Grant vs Yapp - Grant
2. McArthur vs Ford - Ford, just
3. Cusack vs Nel - Cusack
4. Swinson vs Gilchrist - Tie
5. Kellock vs Cox - Kellock
6. Harley vs Denton - Denton
7. Barclay vs Rennie - Tie
8. Strauss vs Talei - Tie

9. Matawalu vs Rees - Matawalu
10. Jackson vs Laidlaw - Laidlaw
11. Lamont vs Visser - Tie
12. Horne vs Scott - Tie
13. Dunbar vs De Luca - Tie
14. Seymour vs Jones - Seymour
15. Hogg vs Tonks - Hogg

6 to Glasgow
6 ties
3 for Edinburgh

Still think Edinburgh are better?

Im pretty sure Visser is better than lamont but i suppose you could have Maitland there.

Jesus how did I forget DTH??? Swap him for Tommy and Maitland for SLamont...

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:Really? Head to head I'd give it to Glasgow, if we discount injuries

1. Grant vs Yapp - Grant
2. McArthur vs Ford - Ford, just
3. Cusack vs Nel - Cusack
4. Swinson vs Gilchrist - Tie
5. Kellock vs Cox - Kellock
6. Harley vs Denton - Denton
7. Barclay vs Rennie - Tie
8. Strauss vs Talei - Tie

9. Matawalu vs Rees - Matawalu
10. Jackson vs Laidlaw - Laidlaw
11. Lamont vs Visser - Tie
12. Horne vs Scott - Tie
13. Dunbar vs De Luca - Tie
14. Seymour vs Jones - Seymour
15. Hogg vs Tonks - Hogg

6 to Glasgow
6 ties
3 for Edinburgh

Still think Edinburgh are better?

Thats your opinion, grand. But I'd take the whole Edinburgh backrow, Gilchrist, Visser (though I agree with whoever it was said he was overrated), De Luca (though chosing that one is like asking would you rather be punched in the left or right testicle).

Visser is crap. If we had invested anything like the energy wasted on him with DTH vdM before he committed to Canada we would have a true Int class player. It makes me angry. Watch next week v the ABs - he (Visser) will be a shrinking violet. And btw Schlong Lamont has more cojones than the entire MFL back line - not that that would be too difficult !

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Notch wrote:After Bradley leaves it will. Edinburghs current run of results won't look unfamiliar to Connacht fans, nor would last seasons efforts in the league. All the sides he's coached pretty much look like this. Porous.

Still, masses of potential in Edinburgh. Just need to find the right coaching ticket to unlock it.

Is it Bradley? It couldn't be just him, I mean they reached a HC final only last year, it has to be something deeper.

Last year they were awful in the league too- not much difference between their league form this year. Difference is they got a good start in the Heineken Cup and got some confidence. This year they started badly in the Heineken Cup and confidence dropped like a stone.

Honestly don't feel like Edinburgh are that much worse this season. Definitely worse. But last season wasn't great if you take out one or two heroic efforts from a team on the roll and looked at some of the very basic failings in their league form.