Pro12 Round 8; Ulster vs Edinburgh

First topic message reminder :

Well, the Pro12 picks up at Ravenhill on Friday night under the shadow of the impending test matches and it's because of those this match is pretty hard to call right now. Ulster are heavy favourites on form, but there's a joker in the deck; a lot will depend on what players are released from their respective national squads for the weekend

Ulster are missing 14 players from their regular squad- either to Ireland duty or injury- and a number of niggling injury worries has meant players we might normally expect to get back haven't been released.

Ulster XV & replacements to face Edinburgh, RaboDirect PRO12, Friday 2nd November, Ravenhill (7.05pm):
(15-9): R Andrew; C Cochrane, J Payne, P Wallace, C Gilroy; R Pienaar, P Marshall;
(1-8): C Black, N Brady (capt), J Afoa, L Stevenson, N McComb, S Ferris, M McComish, R Wilson;
Replacements (16-23): N Annett, R Lutton, A Macklin, R Diack, N Williams, N O'Connor, S Olding, P Nelson.

Unavailable for selection (14):
Rory Best, Tommy Bowe, Tom Court, Darren Cave, Chris Farrell, Declan Fitzpatrick, Iain Henderson, Chris Henry, Paddy Jackson, Luke Marshall, Paddy McAllister, Johann Muller, Andrew Trimble, Dan Tuohy.

There's an element of rotation with Jared Payne moving to outside centre to allow Ricky Andrew to make his full Ulster debut at fullback and Roger Wilson making his first Ulster start in four years- the impressive Nick Williams will surely enjoy wreaking havoc form the bench in the second half. Whilst Ulsters depth has improved tenfold in recent times, this is a much weakened side- even if it does have a spine of experience (Brady, Afoa, Ferris, Wilson, Pienaar, Wallace, Payne).

However, Edinburgh themselves are missing 10 to the Scottish squad- Geoff Cross, David Denton, Ross Ford, Allan Jacobsen, Ross Rennie, Nick De Luca, Lee Jones, Greig Laidlaw, Matt Scott and Tim Visser are all taking part in preparations for Scotlands clash with New Zealand on the 11th November. Stuart McInally and Grant Gilchrist have been released to face Ulster this weekend.

Edinburgh team:

1 Yapp
2 Titterell
3 Nel
4 Gilchrist
5 McAlipne
6 Cox (Capt)
7 Grant
8 McInally
9 Leck
10 Hunter
11 Brown
12 King
13 Houston
14 Jones
15 Tonks

Subs Walker, Jacobson, Niven, VDV, Watson, Rees, Fife, Visser jnr

The absence of 21 players to either Scotland or Ireland plus injuries gives both teams a fairly unfamiliar look, with the honours likely to go to the side who adapts best.

Also, Paddy Wallace or John Afoa for Captain?

I think Edinburgh will get Grant Gilchrist and Stuart McInally back. I suspect no more than that.

My guess at the Edinburgh XV:

1. Yapp 2.Titterall 3.Nel 4.Gilchrist 5.McAlpine 6.Basilia 7.McInally 8.Talei 9.Rees 10.Leonard 11.Fyfe 12.Houston 13.Tonks 14.Visser (jnr) 15.Brown

Should be a good game this! Lots of guys hungry to establish themselves as first choice. Can't wait to see what some guys who were impressive in the early part of the season but have since been forced out by internationals can do.

If D'arcy is fit

11) Craig Gilroy
12) Paddy Wallace
13) Jared Payne
14) Michael Allen
15) Adam D'arcy

He is our second choice full back still (IMO), and needs games if fit, as had been injured so far this season,

Nelson on bench and you can either do straight swap or take Allen/Gilroy off move Darcy to wing and bring Nelson on.

Think D'arcy could become 4th choice wing and 2nd choice fullback.

Darcy isn't in the squad so he must still be injured.

Adam D'Arcy isn't mentioned in players unavailable. I think he just hasn't been selected.

Peter Nelson, I think, has jumped ahead of him in the pecking order.

From an Edinburgh perspective the key to this season was improving our performances in the league with our Scottish internationals missing, so this is the first real test of our depth.

Given the 1st XV has been completely awful this season I'm not holding my breath, but there are a couple of good players in the pack, and Leonard is kicking well from the tee at the moment, so we ought to be able to convert the opportunities that come our way. I can only see one winner though.

MrsP wrote:Darcy isn't in the squad so he must still be injured.

Ahhhhhh that fella is having no luck. 2 years ago he was pretty good, but he's not getting any games, and new chance with new coach and hes injuried all the time. Still I think he's a good back up to Payne, but Nelson will soon/maybe already overtake him as second choice, fullback. I hope that he gets some good gametime this season. I've always liked the way he plays, but also see that Nelson would maybe benefit his development with more games as well.

If Payne got injuried for the bigger games i'd still rather have D'arcy than Nelson, but that could change next year.

From an Edinburgh prespective. do you still have faith in Michael Bradley?

I know that Connacht fans were never that fond of him, and are well happy to have swapped him for Elwood.

To be fair the getting to the semi final last year, there hasn't been much to shout about at Edinburgh. If Edinburgh had lost to Toulose I think he would be under a lot of pressure but that one result has brought him some time. Glasgow seem to be putting daylight between them and Edinburgh.

Really glad to see Isaak has arrived - short of 2nd rows just now and I've got high hopes for him.

Chat is he is fit and ready to go and, subject to a medical, able to play on Friday!

Notch, do you think he's fit again? I think they just have forgotten to add him to the "injured list".

MrsP wrote:Notch, do you think he's fit again? I think they just have forgotten to add him to the "injured list".

He was definitely injured ahead of the Ravens game. He had been picked to play on the wing in that one with Nelson at fullback. I'd say hes still injured.

George Carlin wrote:I see that Izak van der Westhuizen has finally got his arse to the capital.

Anyone know if he'll be chucked in against Ulster?

Yes according to Edinburgh site he will be eligible for Fridays game I'm looking forward to seeing him in action, only missed 40 mins in 30 matches with cheetahs apparently so he is pretty fit, had lots of game time.

Possible Edinburgh side then...

1. Yapp
2. Titterrell
3. Nel
4. Cox
5. Van Der Westhuisen
6. Talei
7. Grant
8. Basalaia
9. Reese
10. Leonard
11. Penn or S Visser
12. Atiga
13. Houston
14. Brown
15. Tonks

Not too shabby, especially up front. I think we may just squeeze this one but it'll be a big ask. Should be a good game though!

Talei and Basalaia are out for 6 weeks bsando.

Atiga is out for 2 - 3 weeks too.

At the risk of being disrespectful (again ) i would be hoping for another BP win here. The only thing that worries me is that edinburgh are overdue a performance but the spine of our side

Afoa
stevenson
Williams
Pienaar
wallace
payne

is still very much intact. I would take a comfortable win but would hope for the BP.

Not out of the question stand but I'm more wary this week. We're missing a lot of players and Edinburgh are desperate for a win.

I'm hopeful we'll pull it off at home but I'm concerned about this one. The lads you've mentioned really need to show leadership. Muller is a massive loss with Henry and Best out.

bsando wrote:

George Carlin wrote:I see that Izak van der Westhuizen has finally got his arse to the capital.

Anyone know if he'll be chucked in against Ulster?

Yes according to Edinburgh site he will be eligible for Fridays game I'm looking forward to seeing him in action, only missed 40 mins in 30 matches with cheetahs apparently so he is pretty fit, had lots of game time.

Possible Edinburgh side then...

1. Yapp
2. Titterrell
3. Nel
4. Cox
5. Van Der Westhuisen
6. Talei
7. Grant
8. Basalaia
9. Reese
10. Leonard
11. Penn or S Visser
12. Atiga
13. Houston
14. Brown
15. Tonks

Not too shabby, especially up front. I think we may just squeeze this one but it'll be a big ask. Should be a good game though!

If we don't have any Internationals available might have to be something like....

4. McAlpine (EDP)
5. VDW
6. Cox
7. Hamish Watson (EDP)
8. Grant

We'll probably see Gilchrist and McInally back so more likley

4. Gilchrist
5. VDM/McAlpine
6. Cox
7. Grant
8. McInally

rodders wrote:Not out of the question stand but I'm more wary this week. We're missing a lot of players and Edinburgh are desperate for a win.

I'm hopeful we'll pull it off at home but I'm concerned about this one. The lads you've mentioned really need to show leadership. Muller is a massive loss with Henry and Best out.

I fully believe we'll get the win. Bonus point? Could be we miss out on scoring 4 tries. The games we played against Edinburgh were very high scoring last year. Hopefully there's space out there and we do have players who can exploit space and a disorganized defence in Pienaar, Wallace and Payne. And they'll have plenty to think about having to mark Nick Williams and Stephen Ferris. Those guys can create space by committing defenders. But I'd still have reservations over so many changes in the backs.

I think that we will win because our breakdown work and our defence has been the best in the Pro12 this year, I think thats what'll be the difference regardless of personnel involved. The confidence in the system and the willingness to work for each other has been the hallmark in those areas whatever team we name.

OK Notch/Stand I'm sold. 5 points it is! SUFTUM!

No respect you guys

You Ulster lot are definitely one of the best on here when it comes to not Wumming and winding other teams up - so don't worry, you're not being disrespectful, just truthful!

I'd be disappointed if I was an Ulster fan and didn't get a BP from this

While I',m hoping for a BP win, Edinburgh could be dangerous.

They have recently been humilated in Europe, after having higher than normal hopes. Lost in League games they shouldn't they are due to turn it around and unleash some anger on a team, and the table toppers wouldn't make any better motivation to but in that performance, be the first team to beat Ulster adds a little bit of respect to Edinburgh.

That said I don't think that they will unleash it here with the number of players missing they have, think it will be at home, and some team is going to be real sorry visiting Edinburgh.

Ospreys at home next for us...

Kind words RDW . Edinburgh will turn things around.... I just really hope its not this week .....

Think Ospreys may be the ones RDW,

Now all you have to do is lose this one by a record amount so I can get some nice odds, on Edinburgh V Ospreys.

rodders wrote:OK Notch/Stand I'm sold. 5 points it is! SUFTUM!

I didn't say that. You can't say I said that!

RDW- I really don't know what Edinburgh are going to throw at us, I really don't. Complete dark horses given the number of changes. Has confidence in Edinburgh been irrevocably damaged? Or will the chance to stake a claim motivate them to outperform their more prestigious colleagues? Speaking of which, there could still be a surprise in store for us with maybe more internationals than expected being released...

I think it will be an interesting game. I think we'll win for the reasons I mentioned above, but this is a real wildcard with so many changes for both sides.

My other concern is that they are going to have one eye on a weeks holiday that they are going to have after the game!

on another thread this Idea started

King of Kelts = unofficial league champions

Ospreys (as league champions) started the season as with the King of the Kelts, Terviso were first team to beat them and after game Ospreys while still league Champions but were no longer King Of the Kelts, Terviso were, Terviso lost it to Munster, and Munster handed it over to Ulster who are the Current King Of The Kelts.

So Edinburgh are playing next to possibly be the King of the Kelts...

RDW_Scotland wrote:Talei and Basalaia are out for 6 weeks bsando.

Ouch, not so bothered by Atiga but Basalaia and Talei will be missed. Have to say Ulster must be favourites by a fair bit but I'm confident Edinburgh can still be competitive. Blokes with less game time will surely be keen to impress while internationals are away. I doubt they'll be phazed by weeks holiday coming up, if anything that should be an incentive to work harder and knock this losing streak on the head.

Talei out now too?

Reminds me of the Frankie Boyle line in Scenes We'd Like To See ('Things You'd Never Hear In A War Film'): "our only hope is that the enermy kill so many of us, they become slightly depressed".

John Afoa has grown himself a mighty beard! Worthy of any prop.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20157284?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

I'm going to ramp up this Celtic Ranfurly Shield thing.

Ranfurly Shield is pretty big in NZ, If not the biggest club prize. A team hold the Ranfurly Shield, and defends it in home games, if beaten the Challangers take the Shield, and hold onto it in thier home games (losing away games doesn't mean you lose the Shield, just home games).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranfurly_Shield

A Celtic Ranfurly Shield could add a bit more spice to games, and if Ospreys started the season with the Celtic Ranfurly Shield, then Ulster won it off them,

This means that in this game Edindurgh are challanging for the Celtic Ranfurly Shield.

I really like this Idea as it gives teams like Connacht or Dragons a chance to hold some silverware during the season, and Edinburgh may be down at present but if they won the Celtic Ranfurly Shield this weekend it could be a real lift and make them even more determined to defend it against Ospreys in next game.

I presume the team will be announced today sometime.

I think I'd go with this:

Black, Herring, Afoa (c)
Stevenson, McCombe
Ferris, McComish, Williams

Marshall, Pienaar

Gilroy, Wallace, Allen, Cochrane & Payne

Reps. Brady, Lutton, Macklin, Diack, Wilson, Heaney or Olding, NOC and Nelson

I am liking our strength in depth.
Oh and John Afoa will celebrate one year in Ulster this week

OR

Allen, Wallace, Payne, Gilroy and Nelson

Edinburgh team:

1 Yapp
2 Titterell
3 Nel
4 Gilchrist
5 McAlipne
6 Cox (Capt)
7 Grant
8 McInally
9 Leck
10 Hunter
11 Brown
12 King
13 Houston
14 Jones
15 Tonks

Subs Walker, Jacobson, Niven, VDV, Watson, Rees, Fife, Visser jnr

Well I guessed the forwards correctly earlier in the week at least!

RDW, give us a bit of comment on that team. Where do you see the strengths and weaknesses? I know a few of the players but there are one or two names that are new to me.

Has Cox played at 6 for Edinburgh before?

1 Yapp - Strong season for us so far - gives real power and aggresion
2 Titterell - had a stormer against Scarlets last week. Massive work rate but dodgy lineout
3 Nel - slow start for Edinburgh but coming into his own now - strong scrummager and big carrier
4 Gilchrist - still only 22 but one of the first names on the team sheet. Selected for the Scotland squad
5 McAlipne - 21 year old with great skills but bit of a beanpole
6 Cox (Capt) - played 6 sometimes last year but a bit underpowered for 6, especially if up against Ferris
7 Grant - Massive work rate, unlucky to have Rennie at the same club
8 McInally - dynamic carrier but lacks power against the big boys
9 Leck - great pass on him but doesn't offer as much with ball in hand
10 Hunter - promising young stand off, spent the summer learning from Dan Carter on a scholarship in NZ
11 Brown - Scotland cap, been off form this year though still young.
12 King - surprisingly powerful for his size, been playing prem 1 rugby all season
13 Houston - good carrier and defender, not very creative
14 Jones - Scotland caps but been on woeful form this year, until last week where he had a very strong game.
15 Tonks - our signing of the season - great under the high ball, massive left boot, strong defence and hits the line well

Subs Walker (young hooker - untested), Jacobson (the Chunk), Niven (young tighthead - not great), VDV (big tough saffer who only arrived in Scotland yesterday), Watson (young dynamic openside), Rees (nuerous caps for Wales), Fife, Visser jnr (both young centre/wingers with a lot to prove)

Thanks RDW. Going by that you don't expect them to give much away, except maybe in the carrying department. They will look for quick ball from the ruck and try to get it wide?

Sadly Embra haven't been playing anywhere near expectation this season tho, Rav - even the basics have been lacking. Must be 5pts in the bag for The Nordies

Yeah it's a competitive pack but we are lacking our usual big ball carriers - Talei and Basalaia being injured at the same time has been a big blow.

Very average backline though - particularly 10,12,13

Nine changes for Ulster;

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/10922.php

Ulster XV & replacements to face Edinburgh, RaboDirect PRO12, Friday 2nd November, Ravenhill (7.05pm):
(15-9): R Andrew; C Cochrane, J Payne, P Wallace, C Gilroy; R Pienaar, P Marshall;
(1-8): C Black, N Brady (capt), J Afoa, L Stevenson, N McComb, S Ferris, M McComish, R Wilson;
Replacements (16-23): N Annett, R Lutton, A Macklin, R Diack, N Williams, N O'Connor, S Olding, P Nelson.

Must say; we are weakened, but I believe that team will have enough.

Whats Andrew like at fullback? Surprised it wasn't Nelson, Ohh D'arcy I wish you were fit

Good side, whats the deal with Andrew? Don't know a lot about him, has he leapfrogged Nelson?

Payne and Wallace looks a good combo in the centre. Very strong backrow.

I suppose the lineout and backline defence would be the main concerns for me, given the changes, but pretty happy with the dynamics of that side.

Didn't realise Annett was still with us either?

I thought Annett was away off to England. He's a talented player but just doesn't seem to be able to make the step up just yet. Chris Cochrane needs to step up as well. I am surprised he is still with the squad as well.

Anyway this is definitely a team that should go and get the job done. Fingers crossed anyway.

Ricky Andrew looks a good player. He spent a year with Castres Espoirs in France which seems to have benefited him.

Someone want to do a similar run down of each player that us Edinburgh fans won't know? I'm pretty sure I know enough about Ferris, Wallace, Gilroy Pieenar, Marshal, Afoa

1) Callum Black - Struggled with injury last year in his first season with us, however this year he has thrived. A stocky, solid scrummaging loosehead who has done well when Court has been out.
2) Nigel Brady (c)- Mr. Reliable. Has been at Ulster for years, Rory Bests able understudy. Hard as nails clubman who is accurate with his darts and tough and durable in all round play.
3) John Afoa- All Blacks Prop. Good scrummager who loves to run like a back. Class act.
4) Lewis Stevenson- Ulsters unsung hero this season, quietly impressive every time he takes the field. Another hard as nails player who normally tops the tackle count and hits a lot of rucks. Nothing flashy but effective.
5) Neil McComb- early season long range try in a friendly against Bayonne earned him the nickname Seabiscuit. Has added a previously unsuspected athleticism to his game linking and offloading well.
6) Stephen Ferris- big man who loves contact but has everything else too. The complete backrower.
7) Mike McComish- another previously unheralded player who has thrived under Anscombe. His breakdown work has improved tenfold this season.
8) Roger Wilson- a very different number 8 to Williams, known for his workrate, his well rounded game and his control at the base of the scrum. A good carrier, good tackler, good at the breakdown. A very useful player who doesn't quite have the gamebreaking power of Little Nicky but outshines him at the less glamorous basics.

9) Paul Marshall- crackerjack 9 who goes from the sublime to the ridiculous. Recently more sublime than ridiculous leading for calls for international recognition, yet still capable of a brainfart.
10) Ruan Pienaar- World class scrum-half who looks uncomfortable out of position at 10 but still possesses oodles of composure and vision.

11) Craig Gilroy- Devastating broken field runner, yet to really catch fire this season but capable of spinning and pirouetting through the slightest of gaps to create something from nothing.
12) Paddy Wallace- His vision and style of play haven't been successful enough to earn him a regular place at international level but Ulster will be delighted to have him available. The lynchpin of our outside backs for the last few years, well able of bringing the players around him into the game on their terms.
13) Jared Payne- Has been playing fullback this season but it was his form at outside centre for Auckland Blues that started talk of an All Blacks call up. Wonderfully intelligent runner- doesn't seem fast, but always picks the right line to leave others in his dust. A major threat to Edinburgh.
14) Chris Cochrane- Nicknamed 'Ghost' at club level due to his predatory try scoring instincts. Often 'ghosts' in to poach a try and despite very few caps for Ulster he already has a handful of senior tries.
15) Ricky Andrew- his first start for Ulster, spent a year with Castes Espoirs which seems to have benefitted him well. A promising young player with a lot to prove.