Can England start where they left off?

The final test against SA in the summer showed the England pack had started to develop a much harder edge to their game. They were more aggressive than they had previously been and it helped to put them in a position to win. Alas a draw but hey ho there were good signs. They need to be much more robust to compete with the SH sides.

Will England start where they left off and improve further? Will they only get back to that level by the end of the AI series? Or worse, not get back there at all?

The Hartley injury is a real blow. Tom Youngs is a good AP player but lineout throwing and his diminutive size go against him. He is out of the Lee Mears diddymen mold.

englandglory4ever wrote:The final test against SA in the summer showed the England pack had started to develop a much harder edge to their game. They were more aggressive than they had previously been and it helped to put them in a position to win. Alas a draw but hey ho there were good signs. They need to be much more robust to compete with the SH sides.

Will England start where they left off and improve further? Will they only get back to that level by the end of the AI series? Or worse, not get back there at all?

The Hartley injury is a real blow. Tom Youngs is a good AP player but lineout throwing and his diminutive size go against him. He is out of the Lee Mears diddymen mold.

Definitely wouldn't agree he is in the same mould as Mears. Maybe in that he is the same height. He is a completely different build to Mears, and despite his size, he can dominate much larger players in contact. He's incredibly strong. If he can get his lineouts sorted in the next few weeks before the game, he'll be a real asset to England I think.

I actually have faith in Lancaster and Co. and I know that people will disagree with me, but I do. I like what he has instilled in the jersey again, and the type of squad mentality he's going for. I might not agree with all his EPS selections, but he won;t please every fan. Besides, we don't as spectators to the sport, have any idea just how well players are training behind closed doors. He showed through the 3 SA tests that he can get a lot from our players, but they definitely have more to give.

I would like to think that England could carry on from where they left off. but with so many players missing through injurie, it will be interesting too see how the team will go with the new guys that have been brought in.

I read to day that Mike Brown has been released back to his club...Is he injured? if not who is going to play full back now. What with Foden being out injured who will fill that role?

Straight shoot out between Brown and Goode majestic. Not sure why Brown's been released really, but suggests Goode may start.

It possibly hints at Joseph being fit and a 12 Tuilagi 13 Joseph midfield?

Reason i say this is that with Tuilagi at 12 the need for an auxiliary fly half (Goode) to come up into the line in phase play is increased.

I'd be surprised if Barritt wasn't included against the big Fijians.

Farrell's also rates his defence incredibily highly

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9637373/Brad-Barritt-tops-England-coach-Andy-Farrells-magnificent-seven.html

Given Lancaster specifically mentioning today how Barritt runs the defence, I'd be surprised if he wasn't first choice for at least the big games in the series.

I've read that Brown has a bit of a niggle, which might be why he was sent back to Quins.

I'm a bit concerned about Youngs' height. It's been discussed a number of times before that a fair difference between a hooker and his prop can cause issues that an international standard opposing front row can capitalise on. There's half a foot difference between Youngs and Cole!

Yes, I expect England to kick on. The players and coaches, who I don't think have ever toured SA before, learnt a lot about the intensity which is necessary in the summer tour, and it's pleasing to see the level of intensity in various AP games last weekend.

England did compete well with SA in the final test. I know people obsess about having a heavier lock but the biggest risk to England's forward game this autumn isn't Palmer/Botha/Parling, it's that the line out collapses. Youngs has to get his throwing right or everything will fall apart. I'm not worried about a height difference in the scrum though - it's not like Youngs and Cole aren't used to playing together.

It's not an issue of whether they're used to playing with each other, it's what a top quality scrummaging opposition like SA & NZ can make of the physical reality that a height disparity brings. There are many aspects of play that can look OK between players that know each other well until it is exposed at the next level up.

Even I thought you'd grown tired of celebrating 'the draw'.

Morgannwg wrote:Even I thought you'd grown tired of celebrating 'the draw'.

Celebrating a draw is alot easier than Dismissing a 3-0 trouncing

Tom youngs will do well me thinks, hes the same height as lee mears but half a stone heavier, also he's quicker, stronger, more agressive and has the rugby brain of a centre. His throwing in and his temper are his biggest question marks but im not convinced that his height will be an issue, especially as he has made the starting shirt his own in one of the best/most competitive club front rows in world.

Interesting clip on him
http://www.rfu.com/news/2012/june/newsarticles/200612_tom_youngs_feature#

mbernz wrote:It's not an issue of whether they're used to playing with each other, it's what a top quality scrummaging opposition like SA & NZ can make of the physical reality that a height disparity brings. There are many aspects of play that can look OK between players that know each other well until it is exposed at the next level up.

AP has some decent front rows. I doubt we'll be exposed in the scrum. The line-out is the big risk.

EngInAuck wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Even I thought you'd grown tired of celebrating 'the draw'.

Celebrating a draw is alot easier than Dismissing a 3-0 trouncing

There's always a Grand Slam to fall back on. How many tries have you scored against Wales in your last two games against them by the way?

DaveM wrote:

mbernz wrote:It's not an issue of whether they're used to playing with each other, it's what a top quality scrummaging opposition like SA & NZ can make of the physical reality that a height disparity brings. There are many aspects of play that can look OK between players that know each other well until it is exposed at the next level up.

AP has some decent front rows. I doubt we'll be exposed in the scrum. The line-out is the big risk.

Decent front rows are not the same as all three being international standard, and in teams like SA & NZ some of the best international rugby has to offer.

I haven't played in the front row since I was 10, so I can't comment on how big an issue height disparity is, but I've seen more than a few experienced former international front row pundits raise it. One way or another I'm sure we'll have our answer by the end of the series.

Morgannwg wrote:

EngInAuck wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Even I thought you'd grown tired of celebrating 'the draw'.

Celebrating a draw is alot easier than Dismissing a 3-0 trouncing

There's always a Grand Slam to fall back on. How many tries have you scored against Wales in your last two games against them by the way?

Why did you have to start something Morgannwg? Thanks to you it's now probably likely to turn into another England vs Wales debate, which quite frankly, is embarrassingly pathetic and a waste of time for everyone.

Yet another thread ruined by a pointless off topic WUM. Please mods sort this out. This forum is going the way of the old 606. Does my head in!

For me, Youngs height is not that much of a concern at all to be honest, it doesn't seem to have been a problem for Leicester. Marler, Youngs and Cole will form a very powerful front row that is strong in the set piece and around the park. My only concern with Youngs (predictably) is his consistency in the line-out.

sirtidychris wrote:Tom youngs will do well me thinks, hes the same height as lee mears but half a stone heavier, also he's quicker, stronger, more agressive and has the rugby brain of a centre. His throwing in and his temper are his biggest question marks but im not convinced that his height will be an issue, especially as he has made the starting shirt his own in one of the best/most competitive club front rows in world.

Interesting clip on him
http://www.rfu.com/news/2012/june/newsarticles/200612_tom_youngs_feature#

Watched that clip chris, and it was really really good- thanks for posting.

Reassuring to know that he is such a strong scrummager, so that we have two good, powerful hookers in both Hartley and Youngs. It was noticeable when Mears would come on at how our scrum would usually lose the edge.

Interesting what Youngs was saying about the differences in fitness requirements between a centre and a forward.

Plus if you look at it, I think the front row that Mears spent much of his time in was more unbalanced than the one Youngs is in. Cole, Youngs and Marler seem to have more similar body types, where as Sheridan and Vickery were man mountains compared to Mears.

Joe Marler (6ft 0in & 17st 4lb)
Tom Youngs (5ft 9in & 16st 0lb)
Dan Cole: (6ft 2in & 18st 8lb)

Andrew Sheridan (6ft 5in & 19st 9lb)
Lee Mears (5ft 9in & 15st 6lb)
Phil Vickery (6ft 3in & 18st 13lb)

Marler, Youngs and Cole...will give all the AI's teams a proper battle ...make no mistake about that. And those saying height is an issue...ever thought its going to be more difficult for the opposition having this pocket battleship coming in under him and lifting them up?Plenty for them to think about.

He is a completly different player to Lee Mears....simple as.

Englands biggest plus for me was the breakdown work...definately matched SA....the biggest thing I personally want to see is our ball carrying and how we do in the collisions...ie can we stop the oppositon gaining ground as easily as SA appeared to at times...and can we in turn make big ground against them?

Marler, Youngs, Morgan, Robshaw, Waldrom simply must be in the mind frame to take that ball on the hoof and become wrecking balls....

I also want to see our backs running from deep!

It frustrates me no end seeing players like Tuilagi given the ball from a static start. Stand a few meters behind the gainline, and accelerate, speeding into the opposition. How hard is that?

bluestonevedder wrote:I also want to see our backs running from deep!

It frustrates me no end seeing players like Tuilagi given the ball from a static start. Stand a few meters behind the gainline, and accelerate, speeding into the opposition. How hard is that?

and THEN off load!

damage_13 wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:I also want to see our backs running from deep!

It frustrates me no end seeing players like Tuilagi given the ball from a static start. Stand a few meters behind the gainline, and accelerate, speeding into the opposition. How hard is that?

and THEN off load!

Haha, absolutely! Easy stuff. I think our offloading is actually pretty decent, especially in the tight. Just need to get the backs involved a little bit more!

Cumbrian wrote:Plus if you look at it, I think the front row that Mears spent much of his time in was more unbalanced than the one Youngs is in. Cole, Youngs and Marler seem to have more similar body types, where as Sheridan and Vickery were man mountains compared to Mears.

Joe Marler (6ft 0in & 17st 4lb)
Tom Youngs (5ft 9in & 16st 0lb)
Dan Cole: (6ft 2in & 18st 8lb)

Andrew Sheridan (6ft 5in & 19st 9lb)
Lee Mears (5ft 9in & 15st 6lb)
Phil Vickery (6ft 3in & 18st 13lb)

I know marler looks a good prospect, and Sheridan was never quite the player we hoped he might be...but i wish he was still around. When he carried well (too infrequently sadly) he really did match the best props. We miss that power I think as we really don't have any other massive blokes.

England definitely have a chance this autumn. Both the Boks and Aussies bring squads decmiated by injury lists greater than their own. But there is huge pressure on their pack. They have a world class scrum and should look to get ascendancy there over all four opponents. England loves scrummaging Aussie out of games and are quite good at it, the SA pack is solid but I'd rate England's scrum better and I think NZ's pack has been scrummaging on reputation a bit since 07 (they still have the best scrum coach going around but Woodcock has been slipping IMO and the locks are still a bit raw despite showing real promise).

I'm expecting whoever plays 9 to be the biggest attacking threat. The outsides have gas but again midfield distribution looks to be crucial for England and I still don't think they have it hence the 9 will have to create more. Tuilagi is carving up but against the SH who have seen (and possess) players of his ilk he may not have the same impact.

Very interested to see how Barritt goes if selected. There'll be a lot of pressure on him. Also the whole baclkine really, Ashton hopefully should be running off everything once his ban's over and England need to create moves in midfield to get him on the burst into gaps like Ioane against Argentina.

Looking forward to Robshaw battling the other 7s though. He seems the type of guy who can inspire the others in white.

They have to get domination against NZ though in the collisions. Parity is not good enough as the All Black backs will kill them. The 5 second rule will be a real test of England's organisation and will help NZ-I think that this could cause a few turnovers and work into the hands of the SH.

Cumbrian wrote:Plus if you look at it, I think the front row that Mears spent much of his time in was more unbalanced than the one Youngs is in. Cole, Youngs and Marler seem to have more similar body types, where as Sheridan and Vickery were man mountains compared to Mears.

Joe Marler (6ft 0in & 17st 4lb)
Tom Youngs (5ft 9in & 16st 0lb)
Dan Cole: (6ft 2in & 18st 8lb)

Andrew Sheridan (6ft 5in & 19st 9lb)
Lee Mears (5ft 9in & 15st 6lb)
Phil Vickery (6ft 3in & 18st 13lb)

If Mears was meant to have destabilised our front row though, that it's not quite as bad with the props Youngs will have is hardly inspiring. Where did you get those stats from Cumbrian? I checked a few sites and they all had Cole taller at 6ft3in, Sheridan shorter at 6ft4in and lighter at 19st, Mears heavier at 15st10lb, Marler heavier at 17st10lb.

GeordieFalcon wrote:ever thought its going to be more difficult for the opposition having this pocket battleship coming in under him and lifting them up?

That might be the case if he was in isolation or as part of a shorter FR unit, but I think the problem is meant to be the weakness of the uneven link between two players with a 6in height difference.

I think England go into these Autumn internationals with very good chance of getting some decent results. England have a few injuries, but still have a lot of in form players.

England vs Fiji : I think its almost a certainty England will win this game. Fiji will show the usual heart, but Englands training and tactics should make this mostly a one sided affair.

England vs Australia : A victory to England is the most probable here. Australia have a serious injury crisis and morale is rather low(see Quade Cooper stories). Despite Australia getting a draw vs NZ recently, I think England will win by about 7points.

England vs Safffas : Depends on the previous two matches. Probably about 50 / 50 chance of England nabbing this one but it will be tight. A windy day would help eliminate the Saffas long range penalties.

England vs NZ : Would love a win, but I doubt it. No one attacks and offloads like NZ. I think alot of luck would be required for England to win.

I definitely need to be convinced about Youngs, it does seem that because he's decent in the loose a few things look like they are being glossed over, but as far as I'm concerned that should be the bonus in a hooker, first and foremost they have to be rock steady at the lineout and in the scrum to be quality at international level.

Lineout is clearly something of concern and I have problems believing that height having been an issue with Mears (who was also quite handy burrowing away and unlike Youngs very reliable with his throw in) for England and the Lions suddenly isn't any more.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now, but if our scrums and lineout take a hit in the AIs I'll want a very quick return of the injured other options and expect him to drop down the pecking order accordingly.

I would say Youngs most definately is rock steady at the scrum....lineout is a work in progress...but who else you gonna select...

Webber - Injured
Gray - Injured i believe...and in my eyes a good club player...little more.
George - Needs to get past Smit and Brits for club before even thinking about country
Lindsay - Im a BIG fan of his...powerhouse in tight and loose but attrocious lineout abilities
Mears - Lets not even go there!!
Haywood - See Gray
Buchanan - See Gray

Have i missed any?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Have i missed any?

Why, there's Andy Titterrell of Edinburgh! (although I suppose being in the Rabo makes him an overseas player)

Yeah hes another one ...but similar to Mears...i think his size went against him...

Rugby Fan wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Have i missed any?

Why, there's Andy Titterrell of Edinburgh! (although I suppose being in the Rabo makes him an overseas player)

No - it makes him look good

Re: players such as Brown being sent back to their clubs, I didn't realise until today that 9 players have to be sent back as part of the EPS agreement. Thus if there's some difficult choices re the composition of the 23 some of those will still have to be sent back.

I would be surprised to see Dickson and Care lining up for Fiji, rather than Care and Youngs.

As far as Tom Youngs goes, this concept that he's like Mears and too small is eye-wash. His scrummaging is one of his best assets of all according to the coaches. Anyone doubting his ability in the loose should refer to the numerous Jeff games this season and the mid-week England games. He runs around like a cannon ball.

His line-out will improve, and as Brian Moore said (a diminutive hooker himself) it's the easiest thing to put right with practice.

I would be surprised to see Dickson and Care lining up for Fiji

But they've already represented England

GeordieFalcon wrote:

I would be surprised to see Dickson and Care lining up for Fiji

But they've already represented England

Very drol. I didn't realise we were suffering that much for good humour at the moment!

Ah couldnt resist....

As I said at Geordie, injuries have indeed given us limited other options, but I would expect those returning injured to jump right back in if Youngs proves to have problems at the set piece. If it shored up the set piece I'd rather bring in someone who was just a good club player, quality ball on your scrum and lineout is too important a weapon to be able to succeed against the best sides in the world.

I don't know if it was down to Youngs, but against the best scrummaging side Tigers have come up against this season, Toulouse, they lost a third of their scrums. That's below par for Tigers compared to previous seasons against similar strength scrums.

Chjw131 wrote:
As far as Tom Youngs goes, this concept that he's like Mears and too small is eye-wash. His scrummaging is one of his best assets of all according to the coaches.

Are you saying that Mears was too small but Youngs isn't, or that size has nothing to do with it and Mears just had poor technique?

johnpartle wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:
As far as Tom Youngs goes, this concept that he's like Mears and too small is eye-wash. His scrummaging is one of his best assets of all according to the coaches.

Are you saying that Mears was too small but Youngs isn't, or that size has nothing to do with it and Mears just had poor technique?

I'm saying that Mears' and Youngs' size is overplayed when it comes to scrummaging. Youngs is continually praised for his scrummaging ability and Brian Moore, whilst operating in another era I agree, was one of the best scrummaging hookers of his day. As his Lions and England Caps will testify to.

johnpartle wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:
As far as Tom Youngs goes, this concept that he's like Mears and too small is eye-wash. His scrummaging is one of his best assets of all according to the coaches.

Are you saying that Mears was too small but Youngs isn't, or that size has nothing to do with it and Mears just had poor technique?

They are the same height, but have very different builds. Youngs is certainly a lot heavier than Mears is, and built a lot more squat. All you have to do is watch Youngs play to realise that he's more powerful and stronger than Mears.

radelven wrote:As I said at Geordie, injuries have indeed given us limited other options, but I would expect those returning injured to jump right back in if Youngs proves to have problems at the set piece. If it shored up the set piece I'd rather bring in someone who was just a good club player, quality ball on your scrum and lineout is too important a weapon to be able to succeed against the best sides in the world.

I don't know if it was down to Youngs, but against the best scrummaging side Tigers have come up against this season, Toulouse, they lost a third of their scrums. That's below par for Tigers compared to previous seasons against similar strength scrums.

They were also playing Mulipola at LH who's really better at TH. They also had Kitchener and Parling in the SR which isn't the weightiest combination of all.

johnpartle wrote:

If Mears was meant to have destabilised our front row though, that it's not quite as bad with the props Youngs will have is hardly inspiring. Where did you get those stats from Cumbrian? I checked a few sites and they all had Cole taller at 6ft3in, Sheridan shorter at 6ft4in and lighter at 19st, Mears heavier at 15st10lb, Marler heavier at 17st10lb.

I don't really get what you mean, my point was that Youngs is a closer fit with the front rowers around him than Mears was with his. The front row fills me with a lot of confidence, I think that Cole is a better scrummager than Vickery was towards the end of his career and I rate Marler around par with Sheridan who got by on brute strength rather than technique by many accounts. It's not all about how heavy or bulky players are.

I got my stats from the RFU, although none of them are really exact. For instance Dan Cole's Leicester profile says he is 6ft 3in or 1.91m. If you put 1.91m into a height converter it comes out as: 6.2664041994691, but what does half an inch here or there matter? Most rugby profiles are notoriously prone to exaggeration anyway, particularly when it comes to weight.

Dan Cole: http://www.rfu.com/SquadsAndPlayers/EnglandElite/Dan%20Cole
Andrew Sheridan: http://www.rfu.com/SquadsAndPlayers/EnglandElite/AndrewSheridan
Joe Marler: http://www.rfu.com/squadsandplayers/englandelite/joemarler
Lee Mears: http://www.rfu.com/SquadsAndPlayers/EnglandElite/LeeMears
Tom Youngs: http://www.rfu.com/squadsandplayers/englandsaxons/tomyoungs
Phil Vickery: http://www.wasps.co.uk/PlayerDisplaySS.ink?skip=31&squadno=7891&season=09/10&seasonl=2009/2010&Playertype=P

Oh an I'm using the two example front rows because a lot of the criticsm levelled at Mears started when he was part of that front row and then during the Lions tour in S.A.

Is it down to weight and height...

Or is it that persons ability to USE their weight and the style of rugby they play...their aggression etc..

Chjw131, but like you say a different era where Moore at 5ft9in had Jason Leonard and Jeff Probyn either side of him both at 5ft10in. It's not the scrummaging technique or power that people are raising, it's the physical issues that technique can't always overcome when faced with the best opposition. If people are making too much of it, then I've seen some pretty top scrummagers discuss it as a real concern in the past.

bluestonevedder, he might be more powerful, but he's not "a lot heavier", the premiership website list their weights as 100kg & 102kg and ESPN as 220lb & 224lb. Again though, that's not the issue that is being raised anyway.

Cumbrian, on one side, yes he is a closer fit, but on the other it's exactly the same as it was for Mears and it only takes one side to cause an issue.

johnpartle wrote:Chjw131, but like you say a different era where Moore at 5ft9in had Jason Leonard and Jeff Probyn either side of him both at 5ft10in. It's not the scrummaging technique or power that people are raising, it's the physical issues that technique can't always overcome when faced with the best opposition. If people are making too much of it, then I've seen some pretty top scrummagers discuss it as a real concern in the past.

bluestonevedder, he might be more powerful, but he's not "a lot heavier", the premiership website list their weights as 100kg & 102kg and ESPN as 220lb & 224lb. Again though, that's not the issue that is being raised anyway.

Cumbrian, on one side, yes he is a closer fit, but on the other it's exactly the same as it was for Mears and it only takes one side to cause an issue.

.

Well if it was a simple as what you're claiming johnpartle, then do you think the best scrummaging coach in world rugby would've selected him in the front row?

johnpartle wrote:Chjw131, but like you say a different era where Moore at 5ft9in had Jason Leonard and Jeff Probyn either side of him both at 5ft10in. It's not the scrummaging technique or power that people are raising, it's the physical issues that technique can't always overcome when faced with the best opposition. If people are making too much of it, then I've seen some pretty top scrummagers discuss it as a real concern in the past.

bluestonevedder, he might be more powerful, but he's not "a lot heavier", the premiership website list their weights as 100kg & 102kg and ESPN as 220lb & 224lb. Again though, that's not the issue that is being raised anyway.

Cumbrian, on one side, yes he is a closer fit, but on the other it's exactly the same as it was for Mears and it only takes one side to cause an issue.

As someone above said, the physical stats of modern players are very exaggerated. There's clearly a visible difference between Youngs and Mears- Youngs looks and is a heck of a lot bigger, mostly because he's younger and the game has evolved.

Anyway, despite their 'similar' statures, they play a lot differently. Youngs is much more physcial, and a very strong scrummager. I think being more of a squat player actually is a distinct advantage in the scrum, if paired with equal strength.

Chjw131 wrote: Chjw131, but like you say a different era where Moore at 5ft9in had Jason Leonard and Jeff Probyn either side of him both at 5ft10in. It's not the scrummaging technique or power that people are raising, it's the physical issues that technique can't always overcome when faced with the best opposition. If people are making too much of it, then I've seen some pretty top scrummagers discuss it as a real concern in the past.

bluestonevedder, he might be more powerful, but he's not "a lot heavier", the premiership website list their weights as 100kg & 102kg and ESPN as 220lb & 224lb. Again though, that's not the issue that is being raised anyway.

Cumbrian, on one side, yes he is a closer fit, but on the other it's exactly the same as it was for Mears and it only takes one side to cause an issue.

.



I suppose what I would say to that is, he plays week in week out with Cole and I haven't really seen any evidence of their height difference being an issue.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I would say Youngs most definately is rock steady at the scrum....lineout is a work in progress...but who else you gonna select...

Webber - Injured
Gray - Injured i believe...and in my eyes a good club player...little more.
George - Needs to get past Smit and Brits for club before even thinking about country
Lindsay - Im a BIG fan of his...powerhouse in tight and loose but attrocious lineout abilities
Mears - Lets not even go there!!
Haywood - See Gray
Buchanan - See Gray

Have i missed any?

I don't think Lindsay's lineout throwing is much worse than Youngs, it certainly doesn't seem to be causing Wasps a huge amount of problems, only Sale have won more lineouts than them this season. Personally I would prefer to work on 6'2" 17st 5lb (Wasps numbers, the RFU say 6'3" 19st 9lb) Lindsay's throwing than Youngs'.

Lindsay - Youngs

7 Matches 7
0 Tries 0
0 Points 0
0 Try assist 0
0 Kicks From Hand 0
19 Passes 10
0 Yellow cards 0
0 Red cards 0
33 Carries 39
98 Metres carried 32
0 Clean breaks 0
2 Offloads 2
6 Defenders beaten 4
32 Tackles 55
4 Missed tackles 7
4 Penalties conceded 6
3 Turnovers conceded 1
0 Line outs won own throw 0
0 Lineout steals 0