BBC has the PWC report into Welsh Regions

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20218179

It is purely looking at the finances it seems. Is highly critical of the performance of the Regions and their future viability. Discusses but rejects concept of bringing back pro clubs AND central contracts. Four other options looked at and rejected (including losing a region).

The recommendation is:

The seventh - and seemingly favoured option in the report - is for the WRU and regions to "adopt a closer collaborative approach" with the formation of a management board to enforce it. The report says this "requires a positive change in the WRU-regions relationship."


So they want a Welsh PRL?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20218179

Regions and union expected to meet for a chat about it in the next few days.

Looks like LondonTiger beat me to the scoop on this one. I shall try and figure out how to delete mine...

I think the regions already have decent enough links with the regions, they do communicate and work fairly well together considering everything.

Reading the report though none of the conclusions of the report are suprising. We knew we didnt have the money to go back to professional clubs, while any young fan who has gotten into rugby since 2003 would themselves feel confused by losing the regions and going back to club teams.

It seems the regions have already done the correct thing by having the salary cap, their not going to try and bankrupt themselves by competing with rich french and english clubs. And are instead going to develop from within their academies.

The Ospreys prove you can be successful with home grown players, granted they don't win Heinaken cups but they do win more than they lose and do also win trophies.

I'd like to read the full report but the synopsis from the Beeb is a bit of grim reading.

Jam tomorrow might be around the corner, but it appears that there will precious little butter to go on the bread in the meantime.

I'm surprised that the pro-club option was rejected out of hand. I'm not convinced by the argument that the clubs system failed Wales because of the system but there was just a dearth of talent at the time.

Report didn't go as far as I hoped, just told us what we already knew mostly, but at least now we can put them down as sound.

So those calling for a return to Club rubgy, we can dismiss that idea now, it was looked at and put away.

Intresting they didn't look into more regions, as RGC1404 and Ponty are wanting in, what is the plan for these?

Central Contracts, "An option of the WRU centrally contracting players and reducing the £6m they give to the regions for Test players "does not address the structural funding gap" they are operating under."

The WRU had this report weeks ago, so why did they come out and offer this to regions, even though they knew it doesn't address the problem?

Central Contracts in addidtion to the funding would work be an option, even with reducing the £6 by a certain amount.

Reducing the number of regions, does not seam to be a viaable option, so your safe for now Dragons.

WRU are not going to take over regions.

It sounds like the WRU want 4 regions on a level with the provinces, but don't want to run or invest in them as much as the IRFU do.

To me this means that to match the provinces financally, to make up the gap they need benefactors (which they admit have their own problems and not likley to help much more). So would need higher revenue in sponsorship and bigger gates than Provices to make this gap up, which isn't realistic.
(say Munster get 20% more from IRFU than Ospreys do WRU, Ospreys would need to generate 20% more in sponsorship, gates and merchandise than Munster do, to stay level. Currently I'd say the provinces generate more than the regions in sponsorship, gates and merchandise, so to gain equal status the regions will have to overtake it?)

greytiger wrote:I'd like to read the full report but the synopsis from the Beeb is a bit of grim reading.

Jam tomorrow might be around the corner, but it appears that there will precious little butter to go on the bread in the meantime.

I'm surprised that the pro-club option was rejected out of hand. I'm not convinced by the argument that the clubs system failed Wales because of the system but there was just a dearth of talent at the time.

We always knew it was going to be bad news you wouldn't commision a report into a crisis if things were rosy.

If we reverted to a club system the regions would become Swansea Ospreys Cardiff Blues, Llanelli Scarlets and Newport Dragons, now to prepare your players for the 6 Nations and tri nations teams would it be better to play Leinster, Munster and Ulster or would it be better to play Bridgend Ravens, Neath and Pontypridd. Granted most fans would prefer the Welsh derbies but looking at the bigger picture international success is always far more important than clubs rivalries so you'd have to say concentrating Welsh talent and playing the best from Ireland, Scotland and Italy is a more viable solution.

How much did the WRU spend on this thing?

For the cost of 500 pages of stating the bleedin' obvious, they probably could have funded central contracts.

Shifty,

If we reverted to a club system the regions would become Swansea Ospreys
Cardiff Blues, Llanelli Scarlets and Newport Dragons, now to prepare
your players for the 6 Nations and tri nations teams would it be better
to play Leinster, Munster and Ulster or would it be better to play
Bridgend Ravens, Neath and Pontypridd. Granted most fans would prefer
the Welsh derbies but looking at the bigger picture international
success is always far more important than clubs rivalries so you'd have
to say concentrating Welsh talent and playing the best from Ireland,
Scotland and Italy is a more viable solution.

I can't begin to explain my view as it's patently not going to happen but:

The fan-base in the regions is pretty much embarrassing for Wales. It is true that reported attendances are rising - but arguably through non-revenue raising means like bogofs.

The chat on v2 reveals that unlike Ireland (for its own 'fortune' of history), there are no natural regions in Wales where old allegiances and values remain.

Historically the Welsh tradition within a spirited club scene is a tragic loss to my mind. And I wonder if a resurgent Cardiff, Llanelli, Swansea, Neath, Pontypool, Newport, Bridgend, etc. wouldn' generate more interest and revenue than the manufactured sides.

But as I say, it ain't gonna happen apparently.

I am sure the BBC edited it for your viewing. Likewise it would have been a very indepth study into the financials of the regions.

I am amazed that, un named regions did not have buisness plans. Sounds like most rugby clubs.

So, big wealthy regional owners are not the way, sensible business strategy, self sufficiency and setting achievable goals is.

I am glad the report was commissioned. Welsh rugby needed a bit of a wake up call to what is completely obvious, but is rejected by so many fans...!

Misses out the main factor impacting on the regions though, which is that the governing body run, market, and prioritise the national team in direct competition to the regions.

Kingshu wrote:Central Contracts, "An option of the WRU centrally contracting players and reducing the £6m they give to the regions for Test players "does not address the structural funding gap" they are operating under."

The WRU had this report weeks ago, so why did they come out and offer this to regions, even though they knew it doesn't address the problem?

Central Contracts in addidtion to the funding would work be an option, even with reducing the £6 by a certain amount.

The WRU really don't give a flying one about the regions, and were trying their luck. They knew the regions would reject the offer, and then look back in the public eye for rejecting a serious offer. Then when they 'review' the offer to what it should be the WRU can claim they are the sensible and caring party, and have made an offer that they did not want to make, in the interest of welsh rugby. I swear I would trust a illigitemate child of a second hand car salesman and an estate agent before I would trust the WRU.

Sadly looking at the report, or what we have been given to look at, I would say that this is probably the only option they would take.

Stone Motif wrote:Misses out the main factor impacting on the regions though, which is that the governing body run, market, and prioritise the national team in direct competition to the regions.

Indeed. The IRFU, it could be argued, is subservient to the provinces (e.g. 2½ AIs). Whilst the SRU has masterminded its
own unique route to Hell on a handcart.

greytiger wrote:

The fan-base in the regions is pretty much embarrassing for Wales. It is true that reported attendances are rising - but arguably through non-revenue raising means like bogofs.

The chat on v2 reveals that unlike Ireland (for its own 'fortune' of history), there are no natural regions in Wales where old allegiances and values remain.

Historically the Welsh tradition within a spirited club scene is a tragic loss to my mind. And I wonder if a resurgent Cardiff, Llanelli, Swansea, Neath, Pontypool, Newport, Bridgend, etc. wouldn' generate more interest and revenue than the manufactured sides.

But as I say, it ain't gonna happen apparently.

I agree that the attendances don't look good. However, you need to compare to a bench mark. And that bench mark is the former club rugby system that so many yearn for. Sadly, attendances there were no better. OK, you could say that if you added up the club attendances in the region then they may have been more (e.g. Newport RFC used to get 6 or 7,000 towards the end, Ebbw Vale a few thousand, Pontypool 1 man and his dog (kidding!)) and that would add up to more than the Dragons get now. However, if you subscribe to the view that we've just got superclubs now, that the Dragons are just Newport, the Blues just Cardiff, etc. then attendances are about the same as they always were. Dragons pull in about the same, maybe a bit less, than Newport used to. That's maybe to be expected as you have to allow for a certain number to continue supporting the original club side if they choose to do so.

Embarrasing? Not sure that's the word. I don't blush when someone mentions it. Frustrating? Slighty, but I can't do anything about it myself so it's impossible for me to get frustrated. I think it just paints a picture of sport support in Wales. We don't watch sport here like they do in other countries. Not necessarily to do with parochialism, marginalisation, disenfranchised fans, forced mergers, or any of those buzz words, because pro rugby attendances have remained similar over a long period of time.

greytiger wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:Misses out the main factor impacting on the regions though, which is that the governing body run, market, and prioritise the national team in direct competition to the regions.

Indeed. The IRFU, it could be argued, is subservient to the provinces (e.g. 2½ AIs). Whilst the SRU has masterminded its
own unique route to Hell on a handcart.

The idea is to make it work though. And the WRU and Regions are not rushing into anything immediately, just to patch up a deal. Both have interests though both have a common goal, success in Welsh Rugby, Regional and International.

The PWC report proves that the regions were being run badly by their own management, their own directors and they were asking for more money from the WRU. The WRU have to find the money to pay for Welsh rugby as a whole. No different to any other union, and we are not the only union maximising the amount of internationals we can fit into 12 months, the Kiwis Ozzies and English are doing exactly the same.

The most important bit of information that all unions should heed from this report is that it would be economically beneficial to restructure the season.

"Changing the season's structure so that competitions run in succession would improve marketing opportunities and increase international players' availability. But that would need the agreement of the WRU's counterparts throughout Europe and the International Rugby Board as well as current sponsors and broadcasters."

Many of us have been saying such for a long time now.

[quote="maestegmafia"The PWC report proves that the regions were being run badly by their own management, their own directors and they were asking for more money from the WRU. The WRU have to find the money to pay for Welsh rugby as a whole. No different to any other union, and we are not the only union maximising the amount of internationals we can fit into 12 months, the Kiwis Ozzies and English are doing exactly the same.[/quote]

This is not strictly true is it. The english squeeze in 2 extra fixtures every 4 years, and we squeeze in 4 extra fixtures in the time space. We even play additional fixtures post RWC.

As a Scarlets fan I feel robbed by the game against Aus last season, we played Ulster in Ravenhill, and lost barely, and would have won if we cold have played our full team, and the we missed out on the play offs by 3pts, which that game would have given us. And then this season again with the extra fixture we will be playing Ulster again without our first choice backline. It's a real shaft of the regional fans.

"Changing the season's structure so that competitions run in
succession would improve marketing opportunities and increase
international players' availability. But that would need the agreement
of the WRU's counterparts throughout Europe and the International Rugby
Board as well as current sponsors and broadcasters."

Hmmm.
Already the season is stuffed to the gunnels with rugby which is the main reason why playoffs were introduced - to compensate leading sides for the (and I' pretty much alone in using the term 'iniquitous') playoffs.

Calendarising the season would imo be tantamount to rearranging the tables on the Titanic.

Smaller leagues may be a practicable solution. But that'd be as welcome as farting contest in a submarine. Alternatively reducing the average turnaround between league matches to five days - thereby increasing further players' (and sides') exposure to injury and burn-out.

It'll be interesting to see if the WRU ever make any official comment on the report, or whether they've just filed it away and are waiting for it to be forgotten.

If the BBC are to be believed, the favoured option is essentially - the WRU and the regions should hug and make up, and leave everything else the way it is.

A 5 year rolling structural timeframe for Roger to be proud of.

greytiger wrote:
Hmmm.
Already the season is stuffed to the gunnels with rugby which is the main reason why playoffs were introduced - to compensate leading sides for the (and I' pretty much alone in using the term 'iniquitous') playoffs.

Calendarising the season would imo be tantamount to rearranging the tables on the Titanic.

Smaller leagues may be a practicable solution. But that'd be as welcome as farting contest in a submarine. Alternatively reducing the average turnaround between league matches to five days - thereby increasing further players' (and sides') exposure to injury and burn-out.

The idea being it would free up the calendar for all parties involved.

greytiger wrote:"Changing the season's structure so that competitions run in
succession would improve marketing opportunities and increase
international players' availability. But that would need the agreement
of the WRU's counterparts throughout Europe and the International Rugby
Board as well as current sponsors and broadcasters."

Hmmm.
Already the season is stuffed to the gunnels with rugby which is the main reason why playoffs were introduced - to compensate leading sides for the (and I' pretty much alone in using the term 'iniquitous') playoffs.

Calendarising the season would imo be tantamount to rearranging the tables on the Titanic.

Smaller leagues may be a practicable solution. But that'd be as welcome as farting contest in a submarine. Alternatively reducing the average turnaround between league matches to five days - thereby increasing further players' (and sides') exposure to injury and burn-out.

It would also make supporting your team 'away' far harder in the Rabo as it would most likely involce time of work to travel to another country.

Personally I think that re-structuring the season would be a bit better, as the players could build their way towards one target at a time. Start with the Welsh Prem, then the Rabo, then the HEC and finally the 6Ns. That would allow fans to realistically follow club, region and international side easier, as at the moement there are some times when the club, region and international are all playing in different countries all on the same day. However I doubt the other Rabo nations would be interested, nor would the Jeff or T14 sides.

I agree a restructured season would be fab.

Does the PWC report indicate how the other countries would feel about it?

Rabo is currently 22 games + play offs. HEC is 6 games + 3 finals. 6 nations is 5 games over 7 weekends and the players are there a week early (so 8 weekends). That's a total of 39 weekends so far. Add in 5 weeks for the AI (44). And the summer tour. There is no room for this, there has to be some cross over (especially if you want the premiership out of sinc as well). The premiership is quite useful for players returning from injury or those just outside of the 23 to stay match sharp. It makes sense to run it at the same time for these reasons.

No amount of money spent on consultants reports will compensate for the parochial and small minded self interest that dominates the game in Wales. There is not enough appetite for change yet - so we will have to put up with this dross until another generation of rugby leaders have enough balls to do something.

offload wrote:No amount of money spent on consultants reports will compensate for the parochial and small minded self interest that dominates the game in Wales. There is not enough appetite for change yet - so we will have to put up with this dross until another generation of rugby leaders have enough balls to do something.

Like offload said. +1

As recommended, the formation of a "collaborative management board to enforce decisions" needs to happen or the bickering and decline will continue unabated.
This is not a new idea by the way.

HammerofThunor wrote:Rabo is currently 22 games + play offs. HEC is 6 games + 3 finals. 6 nations is 5 games over 7 weekends and the players are there a week early (so 8 weekends). That's a total of 39 weekends so far. Add in 5 weeks for the AI (44). And the summer tour. There is no room for this, there has to be some cross over (especially if you want the premiership out of sinc as well). The premiership is quite useful for players returning from injury or those just outside of the 23 to stay match sharp. It makes sense to run it at the same time for these reasons.

To be fair though at the moment, in Wales, the Rabo is 24 weeks (inc play offs) the HEC is 9 weeks (inc knockouts) the 6Ns is 7 weeks, and the AIs are 4 weeks. The only place they overlap is 2 weeks during the AIs (and the LV= with could be scrapped). So then this overlap could be settled by removing the 2 weekend off in the 6Ns. Admittedly that would not allow for the Welsh Prem to be played earlier, unless the Rabo and Welsh prem were reduced to play each other once, which would make it 11 weeks semi-pro welsh prem, 13 weeks rabo, as opposed to 24 weeks Rabo as it is now.

The thing is it would need the whole of the NH nations to buy into it, and in fairness things seems to be working well for the Irish Provinces (would the IFRU see it as a chance to improve the national side?), and the Jeff and T14 are totally different animals so IMO would not be intersted. As for the Scottish and Italians I am unsure of what they woud think.

Cardiff Dave wrote:As recommended, the formation of a "collaborative management board to enforce decisions" needs to happen or the bickering and decline will continue unabated.
This is not a new idea by the way.

Although wasn't that what RRW was meant to be doing, taking the interests of the regions to the WRU and the interest/opinions of the WRU to the regions?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:As recommended, the formation of a "collaborative management board to enforce decisions" needs to happen or the bickering and decline will continue unabated.
This is not a new idea by the way.

Although wasn't that what RRW was meant to be doing, taking the interests of the regions to the WRU and the interest/opinions of the WRU to the regions?

AFAIK, RRW only represented the regions. The new management board would sit in between and bang heads together. That's my take on it.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:As recommended, the formation of a "collaborative management board to enforce decisions" needs to happen or the bickering and decline will continue unabated.
This is not a new idea by the way.

Although wasn't that what RRW was meant to be doing, taking the interests of the regions to the WRU and the interest/opinions of the WRU to the regions?

AFAIK, RRW only represented the regions. The new management board would sit in between and bang heads together. That's my take on it.

RRW does sort of only represent the regions, however they were meant to act as a middle man. Adding another set of people to the equation is only going to add another set of people's opinions on the matter to deal with as well. Also if he WRU are paying for these new middlemen then odds are they will be far from impartial.

The regions should look at whats happening to Connacht. About 3 years ago the IRFU decided that they were going to bring in successful businessmen to run Connacht. Since then changes have been made and the future is looking good and Connacht isn't exactly a hotbed of rugby.

The regional sides have a great marketing tool at their doorstep if they wich to use it ie the national teams success. Why not tap into the feelgood factor surrounding Wales and use it to draw in more regional fans.

A good (potentially great) move for the Rabo league would be to have the HEC running through less of the season. Make it a mid season competition that ends a month or two before the Rabo finals take place. In the past few seasons the Rabo finals have been overshadowed by the HEC final and thats damaging to the league. Having less interruptions during the season would also allow more continuity.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

RRW does sort of only represent the regions, however they were meant to act as a middle man. Adding another set of people to the equation is only going to add another set of people's opinions on the matter to deal with as well. Also if he WRU are paying for these new middlemen then odds are they will be far from impartial.

Not just another set of opinions as the PWC report suggests that this new management board should have the power to enforce.
So I suppose this would mean the WRU and RRW agreeing to this. Oh hang on.

I agree profitius the H-cup final has overshadowed the Legue final, its to o close together and makes the league feel like a runners up prize, In recent years Leinster have lost the final last 2 times, you always feel that was becuase they had the h-cup and league would be a bonus, or consulaton prize when Munster won it.

The French proposial of having the final earlier does have merit, that then the season builds up to the league final. And teams involved in H-cup final have time to recover.

profitius wrote:The regions should look at whats happening to Connacht. About 3 years ago the IRFU decided that they were going to bring in successful businessmen to run Connacht. Since then changes have been made and the future is looking good and Connacht isn't exactly a hotbed of rugby.

The regional sides have a great marketing tool at their doorstep if they wich to use it ie the national teams success. Why not tap into the feelgood factor surrounding Wales and use it to draw in more regional fans.

A good (potentially great) move for the Rabo league would be to have the HEC running through less of the season. Make it a mid season competition that ends a month or two before the Rabo finals take place. In the past few seasons the Rabo finals have been overshadowed by the HEC final and thats damaging to the league. Having less interruptions during the season would also allow more continuity.

You must be under the impression the regions are run by a few penniless oiks from the job centre who just fancied running a sports team. The benefactors are successful businessmen, some of them extremely so. All that combined acumen means sweet bugger all if the set up precludes the regions being run as businesses, which the participation agreement and demands of the WRU currently do. Case in point the national team. How are the regions supposed to tap into it's success when that success is achieved at the region's expense? The national team are the region's major competitor.

Stone Motif wrote:The national team are the region's major competitor.

Can you please explain what you exactly mean by that point in full...?

I said several years back on the old BBC 606 forum that I predicted the end of regional rugby, and the end of professional rugby in Wales. I said, I fear, a few of the top clubs will look to play in the English Prem, and professional rugby in Wales will go the way of professional football, ie. Swansea, Cardiff, Wrexham and Newport, playing games in the English leagues, with very few welsh qualified players.

This was always due to happen, when regions where set up and then left to the money men to run. They have NO interest in the success of the National Side, only the success of their clubs (Regions) and why should they. They are, after all business men, and so are only interested in the bottom line. I'm amused when we call them benefactors, as that implies they plow money into the clubs as a hobby. They don't, they do it as an investor, and when business is bad, they will want to see their investment returned. Why do you think Cuddy has removed himself from Ospreys MD role. Because, his company like other construction companies are feeling the pinch, and it is now time he pulled back and sees a return on his investment. Tell Cuddy, never mind the Ospreys haven't won the HC, never mind you make a real loss year in year out, just think how your investment has developed the lions share of the Welsh National squad. I bet he will be impressed....

I'll say it again. The Regions where set up for the benefit of the Welsh National side and no other reason. Hence, the only way it can or would ever work, is if the WRU centrally contract the top Welsh players. Then those players play for the region the WRU assigns them to, just like contractors in the real business world. It is fair, in this process, that the WRU reduced payments to the Regions, as the Regions no longer have the payroll bill for the top players. They then only pay the players they want. But of course the Regions don't want this, as they want the penny and the bun.

I just fear for Welsh rugby, as I honestly believe the bubble will burst, with the top players leaving for lucrative (but short) contracts outside Wales. We will then see club v country calls like they see in football. The Regions will extract themselves from the WRU and seek bigger returns of their investment playing outside of the WRU control, which will result in the demise of the Pro12. Which will have a knock on effect to our Celtic cousins.

Rugby is heading for the biggest split, since the creation of Rugby League, and the WRU and Regions are too pig headed to see it.

Ok, I'm an old f@rt and like me many old uns, say Professionalism has ruined the game. Well it has, but not by the players becoming professional, but the fact the clubs and WRU are still running the game like a bunch of idiot committee members looking forward to their freebies, instead of becoming professional business men and investing in and developing a product everyone wants.

They need to change NOW, centrally contract the top players and put a professional management layer in, instead of jobs for the boys. The WRU need to invest in the regions so they become thier partners realising the Regions need success as well. The Regions need to embrace national success and grow off it, instead of seeing the WRU as the enemy all the time..... There is so much they need to do, to keep this boat afloat. Yet I think the people there making the decisions dont really care, and in all honesty I fear it may be to late.

What role does the PRL play in England?

This is all very interesting

"WRU takes over all pro rugby" was a suggestion of mine by the way. Who 'rejects these options' ?

Stone Motif wrote:

profitius wrote:The regions should look at whats happening to Connacht. About 3 years ago the IRFU decided that they were going to bring in successful businessmen to run Connacht. Since then changes have been made and the future is looking good and Connacht isn't exactly a hotbed of rugby.

The regional sides have a great marketing tool at their doorstep if they wich to use it ie the national teams success. Why not tap into the feelgood factor surrounding Wales and use it to draw in more regional fans.

A good (potentially great) move for the Rabo league would be to have the HEC running through less of the season. Make it a mid season competition that ends a month or two before the Rabo finals take place. In the past few seasons the Rabo finals have been overshadowed by the HEC final and thats damaging to the league. Having less interruptions during the season would also allow more continuity.

You must be under the impression the regions are run by a few penniless oiks from the job centre who just fancied running a sports team. The benefactors are successful businessmen, some of them extremely so. All that combined acumen means sweet bugger all if the set up precludes the regions being run as businesses, which the participation agreement and demands of the WRU currently do. Case in point the national team. How are the regions supposed to tap into it's success when that success is achieved at the region's expense? The national team are the region's major competitor.

They tap into its success by telling their fans that they, the regions, were part of that success. Its not like they would be telling porkies. Have they done that? Have they ever come together and hired a marketing company to work for them?

Looking at businessmen in sports its amazing how many fail. The most successful club in soccer is Barcelona who is owned by their fans and not run to make money.

Profitius = 666 aghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Put this on another page but back in Jan,

"Connacht Rugby’s professional games board (PGB) has announced the appointment of Alex Saul as head of marketing.

The role was created as part of the PGB’s revitalisation of Connacht Rugby’s off-the-field activities and will include: development of ticketing strategy and operations; identifying and securing strategic partnerships and fundraising; sponsorship strategy; brand strategy and development; re-structuring of retail and merchandise programme; and IRFU and key stakeholder management.

Saul’s previous role was asgroup sponsorship & branding manager for the Welsh Rugby Union,where he oversaw the Union’s Rugby World Cup commercial programme including the RWC kit launch, its Six Nations commercial and events campaigns and was responsible for introducing 4 FTSE 100 companies to the WRU’s partner programme."

Having been working for the WRU, how come he wasn't moved to or taken on by a region.
He seams to be doing a good job in the West.

Is it true WRU run the regional acamadies, or at least fund them (have read that here. They should also look at appointing Marketing Managers at each region, to work to Promote the region they are at and come together to plan and promote all the regions collectivaly.

sirBiggles wrote:I said several years back on the old BBC 606 forum that I predicted the end of regional rugby, and the end of professional rugby in Wales. I said, I fear, a few of the top clubs will look to play in the English Prem, and professional rugby in Wales will go the way of professional football, ie. Swansea, Cardiff, Wrexham and Newport, playing games in the English leagues, with very few welsh qualified players.

This was always due to happen, when regions where set up and then left to the money men to run. They have NO interest in the success of the National Side, only the success of their clubs (Regions) and why should they. They are, after all business men, and so are only interested in the bottom line. I'm amused when we call them benefactors, as that implies they plow money into the clubs as a hobby. They don't, they do it as an investor, and when business is bad, they will want to see their investment returned. Why do you think Cuddy has removed himself from Ospreys MD role. Because, his company like other construction companies are feeling the pinch, and it is now time he pulled back and sees a return on his investment. Tell Cuddy, never mind the Ospreys haven't won the HC, never mind you make a real loss year in year out, just think how your investment has developed the lions share of the Welsh National squad. I bet he will be impressed....

I'll say it again. The Regions where set up for the benefit of the Welsh National side and no other reason. Hence, the only way it can or would ever work, is if the WRU centrally contract the top Welsh players. Then those players play for the region the WRU assigns them to, just like contractors in the real business world. It is fair, in this process, that the WRU reduced payments to the Regions, as the Regions no longer have the payroll bill for the top players. They then only pay the players they want. But of course the Regions don't want this, as they want the penny and the bun.

I just fear for Welsh rugby, as I honestly believe the bubble will burst, with the top players leaving for lucrative (but short) contracts outside Wales. We will then see club v country calls like they see in football. The Regions will extract themselves from the WRU and seek bigger returns of their investment playing outside of the WRU control, which will result in the demise of the Pro12. Which will have a knock on effect to our Celtic cousins.

Rugby is heading for the biggest split, since the creation of Rugby League, and the WRU and Regions are too pig headed to see it.

Ok, I'm an old f@rt and like me many old uns, say Professionalism has ruined the game. Well it has, but not by the players becoming professional, but the fact the clubs and WRU are still running the game like a bunch of idiot committee members looking forward to their freebies, instead of becoming professional business men and investing in and developing a product everyone wants.

They need to change NOW, centrally contract the top players and put a professional management layer in, instead of jobs for the boys. The WRU need to invest in the regions so they become thier partners realising the Regions need success as well. The Regions need to embrace national success and grow off it, instead of seeing the WRU as the enemy all the time..... There is so much they need to do, to keep this boat afloat. Yet I think the people there making the decisions dont really care, and in all honesty I fear it may be to late.

Hi SirBiggs, I remember you from the old board and from Scrum5 - hope you are well.
Although your's is a pretty pessimistic view, I share much of it. We have a professional sport still run by too many amateurs. We can't just focus on a moderately successful national team. The regions have to have the foundation to thrive.

offload wrote:

sirBiggles wrote:I said several years back on the old BBC 606 forum that I predicted the end of regional rugby, and the end of professional rugby in Wales. I said, I fear, a few of the top clubs will look to play in the English Prem, and professional rugby in Wales will go the way of professional football, ie. Swansea, Cardiff, Wrexham and Newport, playing games in the English leagues, with very few welsh qualified players.

This was always due to happen, when regions where set up and then left to the money men to run. They have NO interest in the success of the National Side, only the success of their clubs (Regions) and why should they. They are, after all business men, and so are only interested in the bottom line. I'm amused when we call them benefactors, as that implies they plow money into the clubs as a hobby. They don't, they do it as an investor, and when business is bad, they will want to see their investment returned. Why do you think Cuddy has removed himself from Ospreys MD role. Because, his company like other construction companies are feeling the pinch, and it is now time he pulled back and sees a return on his investment. Tell Cuddy, never mind the Ospreys haven't won the HC, never mind you make a real loss year in year out, just think how your investment has developed the lions share of the Welsh National squad. I bet he will be impressed....

I'll say it again. The Regions where set up for the benefit of the Welsh National side and no other reason. Hence, the only way it can or would ever work, is if the WRU centrally contract the top Welsh players. Then those players play for the region the WRU assigns them to, just like contractors in the real business world. It is fair, in this process, that the WRU reduced payments to the Regions, as the Regions no longer have the payroll bill for the top players. They then only pay the players they want. But of course the Regions don't want this, as they want the penny and the bun.

I just fear for Welsh rugby, as I honestly believe the bubble will burst, with the top players leaving for lucrative (but short) contracts outside Wales. We will then see club v country calls like they see in football. The Regions will extract themselves from the WRU and seek bigger returns of their investment playing outside of the WRU control, which will result in the demise of the Pro12. Which will have a knock on effect to our Celtic cousins.

Rugby is heading for the biggest split, since the creation of Rugby League, and the WRU and Regions are too pig headed to see it.

Ok, I'm an old f@rt and like me many old uns, say Professionalism has ruined the game. Well it has, but not by the players becoming professional, but the fact the clubs and WRU are still running the game like a bunch of idiot committee members looking forward to their freebies, instead of becoming professional business men and investing in and developing a product everyone wants.

They need to change NOW, centrally contract the top players and put a professional management layer in, instead of jobs for the boys. The WRU need to invest in the regions so they become thier partners realising the Regions need success as well. The Regions need to embrace national success and grow off it, instead of seeing the WRU as the enemy all the time..... There is so much they need to do, to keep this boat afloat. Yet I think the people there making the decisions dont really care, and in all honesty I fear it may be to late.

Hi SirBiggs, I remember you from the old board and from Scrum5 - hope you are well.
Although your's is a pretty pessimistic view, I share much of it. We have a professional sport still run by too many amateurs. We can't just focus on a moderately successful national team. The regions have to have the foundation to thrive.

It's a ridiculous view. Only in Wales would the benefactors, who throw more of their own money at Welsh rugby than the most ardent fan will ever see in their lifetimes, be so demonised. The WRu propaganda machine I guess. Let's make this abundantly clear. The money they throw at the regions benefits the national team more than their own businesses! How tf is that failing to support the national team an placing their own interests over the common good!

maestegmafia wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:The national team are the region's major competitor.

Can you please explain what you exactly mean by that point in full...?

As an O's fan, I would have thought it blatantly obvious to you. Have you not read your board member's recent comments on the subject?

Morgannwg wrote:What role does the PRL play in England?

The umbrella body that represents all the clubs in the Premiership. Mark Mcafferty is its chief executive snice 2005 & they have been responsible for securing an 8 year deal with the RFU for player release & negotiating control of commercial rights.
This has led to all the live games we see each weekend & more sponsorship for the organisation which is distributed equally among the clubs. The PRL have done a good job.
Whilst reading about the Premiership I found out that now 73% of players are eligible to play for England. Good for the future.

profitius wrote:
They tap into its success by telling their fans that they, the regions, were part of that success. Its not like they would be telling porkies. Have they done that? Have they ever come together and hired a marketing company to work for them?

Looking at businessmen in sports its amazing how many fail. The most successful club in soccer is Barcelona who is owned by their fans and not run to make money.

Ah, right yes. Presumably they also need to remind the casual Welsh rugby fan of the health benefits of continuous breathing while their at it? What you're saying is fundamentally flawed. Come and see Dan Lydiate play for the Dragons say the Dragons. Oh wait, he's with the national team more than he is there, oh and he plays in a team financially folked by the WRU, against a team I've never really heard of. Nah, may as well just pay the 20 squid for a day out at the Millenium instead.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:What role does the PRL play in England?

The umbrella body that represents all the clubs in the Premiership. Mark Mcafferty is its chief executive snice 2005 & they have been responsible for securing an 8 year deal with the RFU for player release & negotiating control of commercial rights.
This has led to all the live games we see each weekend & more sponsorship for the organisation which is distributed equally among the clubs. The PRL have done a good job.
Whilst reading about the Premiership I found out that now 73% of players are eligible to play for England. Good for the future.

Thanks.

Seems like a Welsh PRL is something in between RRW and the WRU.

Stone Motif wrote:

profitius wrote:
They tap into its success by telling their fans that they, the regions, were part of that success. Its not like they would be telling porkies. Have they done that? Have they ever come together and hired a marketing company to work for them?

Looking at businessmen in sports its amazing how many fail. The most successful club in soccer is Barcelona who is owned by their fans and not run to make money.

Ah, right yes. Presumably they also need to remind the casual Welsh rugby fan of the health benefits of continuous breathing while their at it? What you're saying is fundamentally flawed. Come and see Dan Lydiate play for the Dragons say the Dragons. Oh wait, he's with the national team more than he is there, oh and he plays in a team financially folked by the WRU, against a team I've never really heard of. Nah, may as well just pay the 20 squid for a day out at the Millenium instead.

Are you one of the owners? You're taking things very personally. I'm just suggesting some things the regions can do or do better. Its not a black and white situation. Part of it is about winning over fans. Look at what happened to the Ospreys' season ticket sales last season on the back of their Rabo win.

I agree with you that the owners have pumped alot of their wealth into the regions and the WRU have benefited more than the owners.

But I thought everything was fine and dandy with the welsh regions, that's what we we're told during the whole HC mess.

profitius wrote:Look at what happened to the Ospreys' season ticket sales last season on the back of their Rabo win.

Funniest part of a post I've read for a while, fair play