Myth of the unbeatable Red Bull

Good thing by Hamilton, exploding the nonsense put about that the Red Bull is an unbeatably fast car. Clearly there is nothing between a good running McLaren (not breaking down), based on Buttons performance too.

I know this goes against the BBC obsession that Vettel is only winning in an unbeatable car but the evidence was in front of us.

Oh, and any word of 'cheating' by Ferrarri, to compare with the outrage that greeted Barrichello being required to ease over for Schumacher in Austria many years ago? Andrew Benson blogging about how atrocious it is? No, thought not.

Dont listen to AB, he talks nonsense most of the time.

Well apart from the race Red Bull owned the meeting. Okay Hamilton won but Seb was never going to run the risk of crashing out by fighting too hard with him for a race win with a world title on the line. As far as I recall Red Bull were fastest in all practice sessions, in qualifying (getting the 1-2) and ended up with the fastest lap of the race.

As for Schumacher I'd need all night to list his misdemeanours including stuff like deliberately taking championship rival Damon Hill out of the race to ensure he won the title and doing the same thing in the previous year (or attempting it) A great drive but jeez give him a curly moustache and you have Dick Dastardly.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Well apart from the race Red Bull owned the meeting.

If I didn't know you better I'd swear you were being ironic.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Well apart from the race Red Bull owned the meeting. Okay Hamilton won but Seb was never going to run the risk of crashing out by fighting too hard with him for a race win with a world title on the line. As far as I recall Red Bull were fastest in all practice sessions, in qualifying (getting the 1-2) and ended up with the fastest lap of the race.

As for Schumacher I'd need all night to list his misdemeanours including stuff like deliberately taking championship rival Damon Hill out of the race to ensure he won the title and doing the same thing in the previous year (or attempting it) A great drive but jeez give him a curly moustache and you have Dick Dastardly.

thought it was two years later? tried to take out Villeneuve as he had Hill but miscalculated IIRC and Villeneuve went on to finish third and claim the title.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Well apart from the race Red Bull owned the meeting. Okay Hamilton won but Seb was never going to run the risk of crashing out by fighting too hard with him for a race win with a world title on the line. As far as I recall Red Bull were fastest in all practice sessions, in qualifying (getting the 1-2) and ended up with the fastest lap of the race.

As for Schumacher I'd need all night to list his misdemeanours including stuff like deliberately taking championship rival Damon Hill out of the race to ensure he won the title and doing the same thing in the previous year (or attempting it) A great drive but jeez give him a curly moustache and you have Dick Dastardly.

thought it was two years later? tried to take out Villeneuve as he had Hill but miscalculated IIRC and Villeneuve went on to finish third and claim the title.

Possibly was but he definitely tried that trick twice. He had the fastest car and still had to resort to those tactics - that is why I could never take to him.

bogbrush wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Well apart from the race Red Bull owned the meeting.

If I didn't know you better I'd swear you were being ironic.

Well come on BB. How would you describe how the whole meeting went? Were McLaren really anywhere near the pace of Red Bull in the practice and qualifying? No.

erm Hamilton qualified ahead of Webber by four tenths and just one tenth behind Vettel, that's surely "near the pace". Then again, Hamilton is the only driver who looks remotely capable of challenging Vettel at the moment pace-wise (Webber probably could but won't for obvious reasons).

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Well apart from the race Red Bull owned the meeting. Okay Hamilton won but Seb was never going to run the risk of crashing out by fighting too hard with him for a race win with a world title on the line. As far as I recall Red Bull were fastest in all practice sessions, in qualifying (getting the 1-2) and ended up with the fastest lap of the race.

As for Schumacher I'd need all night to list his misdemeanours including stuff like deliberately taking championship rival Damon Hill out of the race to ensure he won the title and doing the same thing in the previous year (or attempting it) A great drive but jeez give him a curly moustache and you have Dick Dastardly.

thought it was two years later? tried to take out Villeneuve as he had Hill but miscalculated IIRC and Villeneuve went on to finish third and claim the title.

Possibly was but he definitely tried that trick twice. He had the fastest car and still had to resort to those tactics - that is why I could never take to him.

I never took to him either, but to be fair to him the year Villeneuve won the championship the Williams was the faster car (and no team mate to speak of, Hill having been got rid of despite winning the title the previous year)

CaledonianCraig wrote:

bogbrush wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Well apart from the race Red Bull owned the meeting.

If I didn't know you better I'd swear you were being ironic.

Well come on BB. How would you describe how the whole meeting went? Were McLaren really anywhere near the pace of Red Bull in the practice and qualifying? No.

So apart from the bit that matters, and on the other bit by 0.1 secs?

CaledonianCraig wrote:Well apart from the race Red Bull owned the meeting. Okay Hamilton won but Seb was never going to run the risk of crashing out by fighting too hard with him for a race win with a world title on the line. As far as I recall Red Bull were fastest in all practice sessions, in qualifying (getting the 1-2) and ended up with the fastest lap of the race.

I disagree, despite what Brundle said with Vettel not risking/fighting too much with Lewis, Vettel did try his best to prevent Lewis from getting passed. He went to the left then back to the right slightly - hence Lewis coming close to Vettel's rear tyre. It only took Vettel to move left then back right (as he did), to then catch Lewis out and bam... Vettel has a puncture. So he did indeed risk something.

Also Vettel was trying hard to stay with Lewis and he even admitted to trying to get back passed Lewis - he said after the race and has said it before "never give up".

At the end of the day Vettel doesnt want to leave his lead too vunerable in the last race of Brazil. What if he loses by one point and then thinks he could have done more in the previous race. He cant go back, so he has to do the best he can whilst he has the chance. Especially considerin its meant to be changeable conditions in Brazil. Only takes a poor quali or red flag to put him further down the grid.


Exactly, when it matters Lewis was only 1/10th behind Vettel in the race, consistantly matched or even was faster than Vettel and as we all saw Lewis won - so Mclaren did have an answer for RBR. I think Jenson would have done better had he not gone backwards off the grid. He did well to get 5th.

The member 'Critical_mass' has done the following action : Dices roll

#1 'D10' : 4, 4

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#2 'D10' : 5, 7

What IS this dice business???

Jenson is forgotten in this; I think from a decent position he'd have been in it.

McLaren have a great package now, right up there.

Swap the cars around and have Newey with Hamilton and the winner of the last two American races, wins with ease

Alonso and Hamilton are slightly better 'pound for pound'. However, Vettel is younger and getting better at fighting back from setback's or lower grid places, as we've seen in recent weeks

But you have to take your hat off to the 2007 team-mates and realise what a delicous combination that was and exactly why it had to be split up

The only flaw in this is that Hamilton's had a few years with the best or equal best car and has one title. I also think Vettel was competitive most of this season with a car no better or inferior to his rivals.

There seems to be something about relentless German winners that British spectators not like.

It also seems that a few drivers are benefitting from the 'plucky underdog' status. Must be why Alonso cultivates it so assiduously.

BB

Other than his debut year, Hamilton has never had a car as far ahead of the field as the Red Bull was last year, 2010 and possibly 2009

Even in 2008, it was a miracle that Ferrari were not clear out of sight after the first 5 races. Christ!! Hamilton even had to do a three stop at Turkey to have a chance of splitting the two

It was only Kimi's total disinterest and Massa's inability that prevented Ferrari having an easy win

I have nothing against relentless German winners. 'The Kaiser', Lothar Matthaus and Klinsmann are three of my all time favourite sports people

I simply think Alonso and Hamilton are better and this has nothing to do with been anti-German or pro-British

The Red Bull IS the best car on the grid by a fair distance and has been for the last few races...as their results attest to.

The McLaren's overall performance was close at the US GP, but while it has a higher straight line speed, the Red Bull outperformed it through the slow corners. This is why Hamilton was able to get right on Seb's gearbox at the end of the straights, but lost ground through the twisty sections...hence why he could never quite get close enough to pull off a pass...UNTIL Vettel got held up through the slower section.

bogbrush wrote:Jenson is forgotten in this; I think from a decent position he'd have been in it.

McLaren have a great package now, right up there.

Maybe, if he hadn't shot himself in the foot with another awful start, going from 12th to 16th in the first few laps, he'd have given himself a chance of getting on the podium. Still, he did decent damage limitation job.

The McLaren still isn't as good an overall package as the Red Bull. It has higher straight line speed, but isn't as good through corners, which overall puts it at a disadvantage. Red Bull can counter their lack of top end speed, to an extent, with KERS (when it works) and DRS. There are no devices to help you go through corners quicker.

Another race to contradict the media mantra that the RB is miles ahead of them all.

God, Webber must be the worst driver on the track to be driving this alleged super car and doing nothing.

Mark Webber is not very good. Never has been. Is number 2 driver. The fact he does not always get the best out of such a good car is because he is not as good as Vetell. The car is clearly very very good. Throw fastest over a single lap this year.

Webber is no world beater but he isn't being dealt a fair hand at Red Bull. He has mechanical issues nearly every race, none less than rarely ever having his KERS working which means his straight line speed is comprised even more with the already slower Renault engine. His starts are also a mystery considering he used to be pretty snappy of the line prior to 2/3 seasons ago.

Anyway, it's not just as simple as saying he should get more out of the car cause Vettel does, as they are not quite on an equal footing.