Those famous Irish tax breaks.

Drawn from Wikipedia
Leo Cullen
"1998-2005 Blackrock college RFC
1998-2005 Leinster
2005-2007 Leicester
2007-present Leinster

Shane Jennings
2002-2005 Leinster
2005-2007 Leicester
2007-present Leinster

Are these guys eligible to trouser the benefits?

More importantly which is following the other like a lovesick puppy?

greytiger wrote:Drawn from Wikipedia
Leo Cullen
"1998-2005 Blackrock college RFC
1998-2005 Leinster
2005-2007 Leicester
2007-present Leinster

Shane Jennings
2002-2005 Leinster
2005-2007 Leicester
2007-present Leinster

Are these guys eligible to trouser the benefits?

Yip. Don't see what one nations tax regime has to do with residents of another nation though...

Its a tax rebate not a break.... Cullen and Jennings will be eligable to recoup the tax (is it 75%?) they've paid over a ten year period to the Irish state, obviously they won't get anything for those years that they were out of the country....

Hopefully one of the southern lads can correct me here...

I would think that any citizen of any country who worked outside that country for a number of years, would be expected to pay tax once again according to the tax system that pertained when they return to their homeland. They would also be entitled to any other benefits that their homeland's laws offered.

Would an Englishman be excluded from a state pension if he returned home after working abroad for 2 years in his 20s? Would he denied unemployment benefits for the rest of his life?

Not sure on the rates Rodders, but I am just thinking how many sports people this will actually affect?

GAA- Amateur Org. No pay.
Soccer - Meh. We hardly have a professional league.
Golf- One or two perhaps
Rugby- we have, 60 pro players? Hardly massive numbers in any case
Plus a couple of jockies maybe...

How does it work for the NI based players. Can they get it too if they live in ROI? Bowe for example is from ROI as opposed to NI.

GunsGerms wrote:How does it work for the NI based players. Can they get it too if they live in ROI? Bowe for example is from ROI as opposed to NI.

All the Ulster lads pay their tax to the Crown so no rebate for them. Just right too. The Leinster lads are dead jealous. Sure they are all a bunch of west Brits after all.

No Guns, he's paying tax in NI. If he retires in the South he can claim back some of the the tax he's payed, which is none as he's only been employed in Northern Ireland and Wales.

MrsP wrote:I would think that any citizen of any country who worked outside that country for a number of years, would be expected to pay tax once again according to the tax system that pertained when they return to their homeland. They would also be entitled to any other benefits that their homeland's laws offered.

Would an Englishman be excluded from a state pension if he returned home after working abroad for 2 years in his 20s? Would he denied unemployment benefits for the rest of his life?

The UK State Pension depends on NI contribution history and any lost years can be topped up. Not quite the same.

But the sate pension in the UK is only 60 quid per week, or something, right?

greytiger wrote:

MrsP wrote:I would think that any citizen of any country who worked outside that country for a number of years, would be expected to pay tax once again according to the tax system that pertained when they return to their homeland. They would also be entitled to any other benefits that their homeland's laws offered.

Would an Englishman be excluded from a state pension if he returned home after working abroad for 2 years in his 20s? Would he denied unemployment benefits for the rest of his life?

The UK State Pension depends on NI contribution history and any lost years can be topped up. Not quite the same.

I don't see the issue though. Obviously Cullen and Jennings will not benefit for their years at Leicester as they weren't paying any tax in Ireland at that time. They will only get a rebate on the tax they've paid when working in Ireland.

So the answer is yeah, but not nearly as much as players who have spent their whole career in Ireland.

No, indeed, it is not the same but it just as irrelevent.

Unlike some, the Irish Government clearly do not have a problem with people working in another country. If only some Tiger fans had the same attitude.

I hope none of those Englishmen who have ever worked abroad expect treatment from the NHS on their return!

No wonder no irish want to play abroad. Aparently Geordan Murphy was also on fairly miserable wages at Leicester for most of his career. What a hero!

I think its for the Irish state to come up with their own tax system, as a sovereign state thats their business really. Maybe if I lived and was paying taxes there I'd feel different, maybe not....mind you I do purchase most of my petrol there.....

Presumably they feel there are benefits to having wealthy people from the entertainment and sports industry living in the country, which outway the loss in tax reciepts.

All of Shane Westlife's money is going to BOD!

That's why he's broke!

I think the rebate is only 40% of the tax that they've paid in Ireland, limited to their highest earning 10 years.

Could be wrong there.

Oh and you have to retire in Ireland, but you can't just come back to play for an AIL side, you have to retire with a professional team (i.e. a province).

MrsP wrote:No, indeed, it is not the same but it just as irrelevent.

Unlike some, the Irish Government clearly do not have a problem with people working in another country. If only some Tiger fans had the same attitude.

I hope none of those Englishmen who have ever worked abroad expect treatment from the NHS on their return!

Are there differences between a returning Englishman or a newly-landed Martian on the NHS front line service MrsP?

Which is an unnecessary diversion in any case.

According to the above-mentioned Wiki cvs, in the two years at Leicester Cullen and Jennings accumulated 38 and 37 games respectively.
In the six seasons since back with Leinster they have correspondingly 77 and 95 appearances.

No wonder that there is a degree of Franglo scepticism about Rabo resting.

greytiger wrote:

MrsP wrote:No, indeed, it is not the same but it just as irrelevent.

Unlike some, the Irish Government clearly do not have a problem with people working in another country. If only some Tiger fans had the same attitude.

I hope none of those Englishmen who have ever worked abroad expect treatment from the NHS on their return!

Are there differences between a returning Englishman or a newly-landed Martian on the NHS front line service MrsP?

Which is an unnecessary diversion in any case.

According to the above-mentioned Wiki cvs, in the two years at Leicester Cullen and Jennings accumulated 38 and 37 games respectively.
In the six seasons since back with Leinster they have correspondingly 77 and 95 appearances.

No wonder that there is a degree of Franglo scepticism about Rabo resting.

Isn't that another unneccessary diversion?

greytiger wrote:According to the above-mentioned Wiki cvs, in the two years at Leicester Cullen and Jennings accumulated 38 and 37 games respectively.
In the six seasons since back with Leinster they have correspondingly 77 and 95 appearances.

No wonder that there is a degree of Franglo scepticism about Rabo resting.

The resting is done by the IRFU not the Rabo. The Rabo is the league they play in, not their employer.

The IRFU don't care a jot about the Heiniken cup or Rabo, they care about having players fit for Ireland and if that winds up the French or any other country who haven't implemented central contracting, well then that means they must be doing something right... although the Irish results and perfromances wouldn't support that right now.....

Or...

It could mean that they were the best Leicester had and so they played a lot but when the came home they couldn't always get in the team as there were better players ahead of them.

Two good players ruined by those dratted Tigggers!

You do realise that Ian Humpreys only started 19 games for the Tiggers in 3 seasons whereas he started 69 games in his last 3 seasons with Ulster.

Were the Tiggers resting him for the HEC?

Jennings played an average of 18 games a season roughly at Leicester.
Jennings played an average of roughly 16 games a season at Lenster.

Hardly a massive case of resting. Cullen's average is lower at Leinster but then again he is getting older. Hardly conclusive evidence.

Cullen did actually return to Leinster surprisingly as a man who was six years younger then than he is now.

Jennings has according to wiki accumulated 13 caps in his life. And that makes a pretty-much average club player closeted.

You can have Niall Morris back though as like Ian Humphries he's not showing a first-team profile for the Tigers.

greytiger wrote:Cullen did actually return to Leinster surprisingly as a man who was six years younger then than he is now.

Jennings has according to wiki accumulated 13 caps in his life. And that makes a pretty-much average club player closeted.

You can have Niall Morris back though as like Ian Humphries he's not showing a first-team profile for the Tigers.

Ok. Sorry about that. We will endevour to only send you first teamers from now on.

Don't bother Mick. Welford Road isn't a finishing school.

Maybe we could send a few youngsters across to learn the trade?

greytiger wrote:Don't bother Mick. Welford Road isn't a finishing school.

Maybe we could send a few youngsters across to learn the trade?

dont think you would have anyone up to our standards.

Thanks for the offer though

I really don't get the point of this at all. Is your point some players played for Leicester once and now play in a different country which has it's own taxation policy? If so thats, er, very insightful!

The query was encapsulated in the OP Notch.

I just enquired if Leo and Shane were eligible to the ROI tax breaks.

It could mean that they were the best Leicester had and so they played a lot but when the came home they couldn't always get in the team as there were better players ahead of them.

Cullen came off the bench a lot and was a very capable under study for lineout savant Kay who was often required by England. Similar position with Jennings covering for Moody. They were both damn good servants at WR during their short stay and will always get a warm reception.

Morris is a decent full back, he is pacey and strong enough for a 15. In every area where skills can be taught he is solid. However, he has very little vision and next to no creative flair. That will be a limiting factor for him and mean he'll only be second fiddle at the big clubs. At Tigers he is behind Murphy and Tait, probably Lewington by the end of the season. A good squad player though.

greytiger wrote:The query was encapsulated in the OP Notch.

I just enquired if Leo and Shane were eligible to the ROI tax breaks.

Then the answer is yes, if they retire here they are eligible for the rebate but only for the years they've played in Ireland. Going to England will have reduced the amount they get when they retire.

Here's the actual wording in Revenue speak:

480A Relief on retirement for certain income of certain sportspersons

"....The sportspersons concerned are: athlete, badminton player, boxer, cyclist, footballer, golfer, jockey, motor racing driver, rugby player, squash player, swimmer and tennis player.

The earnings to which the relief applies are earnings deriving directly from actual participation in the sport concerned such as prize money, performance fees etc, but not other earnings such as sponsorship fees, advertisement income or income from endorsements etc. The relief takes the form of a deduction from earnings equal to 40 per cent of those earnings for up to any 10 years of assessment back to and including the tax year 1990/91 for which the sportsperson was resident in the State.

The relief will be given by way of repayment of tax and is to be claimed in the year in which the sportsperson ceases permanently to be engaged in that sport provided they are resident in the State in that year. Provision is made to withdraw the relief by way of a Case IV assessment for the years in respect of which the relief was originally given if the person subsequently recommences to be engaged in that sport, though this does not prevent a subsequent claim for the relief if and when the sportsperson finally does retire at a later time...."

Mickado wrote:I think the rebate is only 40% of the tax that they've paid in Ireland, limited to their highest earning 10 years.

Could be wrong there.

Oh and you have to retire in Ireland, but you can't just come back to play for an AIL side, you have to retire with a professional team (i.e. a province).

Thats bsically it. The retiring in Ireland part does not help Irish rugby though.

profitius wrote:

Mickado wrote:I think the rebate is only 40% of the tax that they've paid in Ireland, limited to their highest earning 10 years.

Could be wrong there.

Oh and you have to retire in Ireland, but you can't just come back to play for an AIL side, you have to retire with a professional team (i.e. a province).

Thats bsically it. The retiring in Ireland part does not help Irish rugby though.

Why?

Pot Hale wrote:

profitius wrote:

Mickado wrote:I think the rebate is only 40% of the tax that they've paid in Ireland, limited to their highest earning 10 years.

Could be wrong there.

Oh and you have to retire in Ireland, but you can't just come back to play for an AIL side, you have to retire with a professional team (i.e. a province).

Thats bsically it. The retiring in Ireland part does not help Irish rugby though.

Why?

Because you have older players who cannot really leave and blocking the path of the younger players.

profitius wrote:Because you have older players who cannot really leave and blocking the path of the younger players.

Yup in fact a tax break would have worked much better than a rebate........

Considering how rubbish the Tigers are these days maybe the OP is looking for better players from here?

profitius wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

profitius wrote:

Mickado wrote:I think the rebate is only 40% of the tax that they've paid in Ireland, limited to their highest earning 10 years.

Could be wrong there.

Oh and you have to retire in Ireland, but you can't just come back to play for an AIL side, you have to retire with a professional team (i.e. a province).

Thats bsically it. The retiring in Ireland part does not help Irish rugby though.

Why?

Because you have older players who cannot really leave and blocking the path of the younger players.

Why can't they leave? They could go to another country - presumably to earn more money than the 40% tax relief for that period - and then come back and finish on a province's books for a couple of months or so on a minor wage but they would be resident in the State in the year they retired.

profitius wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

profitius wrote:

Mickado wrote:I think the rebate is only 40% of the tax that they've paid in Ireland, limited to their highest earning 10 years.

Could be wrong there.

Oh and you have to retire in Ireland, but you can't just come back to play for an AIL side, you have to retire with a professional team (i.e. a province).

Thats bsically it. The retiring in Ireland part does not help Irish rugby though.

Why?

Because you have older players who cannot really leave and blocking the path of the younger players.

The older players are unlikely to leave anyway as at that stage most of them have wives with jobs and kids in schools. (They are not going to move province either).

Considering how rubbish the Tigers are these days maybe the OP is looking for better players from here?

Nah he's after players that won't get called up and broken. Ireland have criminally underused Geordan in the view of everyone connected to Tigers. It has worked well enough for the club.

Criminally underused? He has 74 caps!!!

74!!!!!

Anyway thanks to Pot Hale for the official wording which can be found at
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CD8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.revenue.ie%2Fen%2Fabout%2Ffoi%2Fs16%2Fincome-tax-capital-gains-tax-corporation-tax%2Fpart-15%2F15-01-36.pdf%3Fdownload%3Dtrue&ei=zy-vULjPGaPX0QW2mICgCw&usg=AFQjCNGpPE28FQMq0xA4lVFLnQ5viLQhgw&sig2=dhz3mgJVQRZa7ZudmhFnzg

It seems from the extract that the implication is that the rebate is available for any person resident in the ROI.
They don't have to be Irish but the the rebate is applicable to direct earnings as a professional sportsman (i.e. exclusive of sponsorships and such-like commercial income).

Can't find anything in that document about any requirement to reside subsequently in the ROI though - which may be of interest to some project players etc.

Pot Hale wrote:

profitius wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

profitius wrote:

Mickado wrote:I think the rebate is only 40% of the tax that they've paid in Ireland, limited to their highest earning 10 years.

Could be wrong there.

Oh and you have to retire in Ireland, but you can't just come back to play for an AIL side, you have to retire with a professional team (i.e. a province).

Thats bsically it. The retiring in Ireland part does not help Irish rugby though.

Why?

Because you have older players who cannot really leave and blocking the path of the younger players.

Why can't they leave? They could go to another country - presumably to earn more money than the 40% tax relief for that period - and then come back and finish on a province's books for a couple of months or so on a minor wage but they would be resident in the State in the year they retired.

They stopped players doing that. Its probably spend the last 2 or 3 years at home now.

profitius wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

profitius wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

profitius wrote:

Mickado wrote:I think the rebate is only 40% of the tax that they've paid in Ireland, limited to their highest earning 10 years.

Could be wrong there.

Oh and you have to retire in Ireland, but you can't just come back to play for an AIL side, you have to retire with a professional team (i.e. a province).

Thats bsically it. The retiring in Ireland part does not help Irish rugby though.

Why?

Because you have older players who cannot really leave and blocking the path of the younger players.

Why can't they leave? They could go to another country - presumably to earn more money than the 40% tax relief for that period - and then come back and finish on a province's books for a couple of months or so on a minor wage but they would be resident in the State in the year they retired.

They stopped players doing that. Its probably spend the last 2 or 3 years at home now.

According to the official blurb it's irrelevant where they retire, but as players usually earn the most in the later part of their career it makes sense that they spend that in Ireland so that they will get back some of that tax. They can claim back on ten years of tax paid but it can be any ten years.

I remember Ronan O'Gara saying before that they could make it worth their while going to France for much higher pay but the limit on the number of games that the IRFU have was something that made them want to stay also. Everyone wants a long career as well as money.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/stringer-expected-back-at-munster-next-year-176128.html

The player has to spend his final year in Ireland to qualify for the rebate. According to the above article Stringer would have lost 150k if he hadn't returned to Munster.

Rugby players can currently claim a tax rebate when they retire for the last 10 years they paid tax in the Republic of Ireland. But a player is only eligible for the rebate if contracted in Ireland for the final year of his career.

In general, after 10 years as a professional, it represents a rebate of approximately 18 months’ salary. For Stringer, who is estimated to earn in excess of €100,000 per year, that would represent a potential loss of 150,000 or more.

I remember reading somewhere that O'Connell said he would have been much worse off financially if he'd have left Munster to move to France. Can't remember the source though.

For someone like BOD 18 months salary would amount to a lot more than 150k.

Intotouch wrote:

According to the official blurb it's irrelevant where they retire, but as players usually earn the most in the later part of their career it makes sense that they spend that in Ireland so that they will get back some of that tax...

Eh the relevant Revenue document states: "The relief will be given by way of repayment of tax and is to be claimed in the year in which the sportsperson ceases permanently to be engaged in that sport provided they are resident in the State in that year."

So they must permanently retire in the State in order to exercise the relief of the ten years or less they can claim for. If they want to go to Australia after that, they're free to do so. However, if they take up rugby again, the Revenue will claw back a percentage of the relief they took.

Sorry lads, should have read more carefully.

What if they switch codes/ sports?

There is a list if accredited pro sports Into.

I don't know how golf or Motor Racing fit in as its so multinational. Golf is also pretty much an extended career Id have thought.

Persons specified in Schedule 23A TCA, 1997, can avail of the relief. These
are:
Athlete Badminton Player
Boxer Cyclist
Footballer Golfer
Jockey Motor Racing Driver
Rugby Player Squash Player
Swimmer Tennis Player*
Cricketer**
* Applicable 1999-2000 and subsequent years
**Applicable 2012 and subsequent years
The present list is confined to persons involved in various sports, where
participants would be expected to have a relatively short earnings span.