5th Sets - The Blot On Federer's Record?

I believe that, after today, Roger's record in 5th sets now stands at:
Played: 38
Won: 21
Lost: 17
55% win rate

That's comparatively low.

Novak and Rafa both have a 75% win rate (Novak 18/6, Rafa 15/5). Andy is at 70% now (14/6).

For all the talk about Roger getting older, can we also conclude that Roger has just never been that great at 5th sets?

Hmmm but how many of those five set losses came to Rafa and Djokovic? I would guess a fair few. I also think that when Federer was at his very best and dominating he got out of the habit of scrapping, so that could account for some of it maybe too.

Didn't realise how good Murray's fifth set record was. He's come a long way...

I think it's because Federer doesn't like getting into a scrap as much as Nadal or Djokovic.

Always be carefull about interpreting stats. Maybe Federer has lost many 5-setters because people couldn't beat him easier? And because he could beat them easier than in 5 when he's playing well.

Chydremion wrote:Always be carefull about interpreting stats. Maybe Federer has lost many 5-setters because people couldn't beat him easier? And because he could beat them easier than in 5 when he's playing well.

Well anyone who gets beaten in the 5th set hasn't been beaten easily. But why, if a player can get Fed to a 5th, do their chances of winning become so much better?

Fed's career match win record is about 82%. His record in tie breakers is about the same. All of his career stats are well above average, so 55% on 5th sets is conspicuously low in comparison.

Chydremion wrote:Always be carefull about interpreting stats. Maybe Federer has lost many 5-setters because people couldn't beat him easier? And because he could beat them easier than in 5 when he's playing well.

This.

Federer is simply such an incredible talent that on the whole 5 sets isn't required. Whe it comes to that, the circumstances have often been so exceptional that there's a very good reason why he might not prevail.

It's in the same "family" of logic as why he would have better h2h with Rafa if he'd been an inferior clay court player; he'd have a better 5 set record if he was bad enough to get into many 5 set scraps with inferior players.

If we're completely honest, when it comes to winning 5th sets, Fed usually can win them, but as he's in 30s now, the idea he can win a 5th set against his 3 main rivals is just fanciful. Yes, he can win 5 setters, and when he does, it's notable, like @ Wimbledon last year in the 3rd round and against Tsonga just the round before this one. However, against the top 3, it won't happen. Let's not forget, after Fed's final 3 slams in a year in 2007, in grand slam finals, it took 5 sets to beat him (outside of RG), Wimbledon 08', Aussie Open '09, USO '09. After the Aussie Open 2010, he only made 2 further finals, 1 at RG which he lost and the other at Wimbledon, which he won. Let's not forget the USO semis against Djokovic in '10 & '11, again, took 5 sets. It probably more an indication of how tough it is to beat Federer in the later stages of tournaments then necessarily a sign of weakness.

Murdoch.

That stat does not matter at all for 1 simple reason.

Federer could've played 5 setters with some easy players just to make his record look good, like Nadal and Djokovic have. But he did not. Only stats that matter are Slams, weeks at nmber 1, and Olympic Doubles Gold (this shows that you can play as a team, something Djokovic and Nadal have yet to do.)

OK having done a spot of research it seems Federer is 2-3 against Nadal in fifth sets (better than his overall), 0-2 against Djokovic and 0-1 (now) against Murray, which means against other players he is 19-11. That's better, but still not at the same level as the other three. While I get the point that Federer has rarely played five setters against "inferior" players, he's still played 38 in his career so far, which is a fair few (nearly double the amount Nadal has played for instance).

I think his 5-set match record has improved in the last few years.

My take is that he's been the greatest front runner there's ever been - his ratio of losses in five sets to overall losses is 17/199, nearly 10%. Nadal and Djokovic are much lower at 5/122 and 6/123 suggesting that if you are going to beat them (rare in itself) you run a better chance of doing it earlier in the match.

Grinders always do better in the 5th sets of a match than flair players. Federer would rather play with skill than bore people like Andy and Nadal do.

Speaking as a fan of Fed's, the one blot on Fed's record his his massve -ve H2H vs. Nadal.

It Must Be Love wrote:I think it's because Federer doesn't like getting into a scrap as much as Nadal or Djokovic.

100% correct. Roger's issue in 2008/9 (when he went (was it) 18 months without winning a Masters) that he suddenly had to find fighting qualities never asked from him when he was on the rise

He's a sublime instinctive player first, the fighting aspect is somewhat secondary to him - similar to another one of my faves, namely Mac

In fairness, I defend him. I stated two years ago that I'd rather Murray goes his career without winning a Slam, than converts himself into some ball-basher, who sweeps all before us i.e.

The variety they displayed today, the wonderful angled shot making, the great use of the slice, the magnificent volleying etc, makes someone like Berdy look like a journeyman

If that results in the likes of Roger not been able to always have enought left in the 5th set, so be it

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Grinders always do better in the 5th sets of a match than flair players

Great point and true

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Federer would rather play with skill than bore people like Andy and Nadal do.

But you have to spoil it don't you? Did you miss some of the wonderful net play that Andy displayed, like an almost impossible get back from a beautiful backhand that the GOAT did? Is that what grinders do? Please give it a rest. When he's on his game - Andy is a great player to watc

The stats can be explained in all sorts of ways. I guess for someone of his caliber 55% does seem low. It's an odd one given his record otherwise.

He used to have a tendency to panic earlier in his career which he got sports psychology training for...I wonder if his old worry gremlins come to the surface in 5th sets? He often loses 5th sets quite badly too...e.g. 6-2 which suggests running out of gas (but I'm not sure about that) or his shots start spraying wide plus poorer shot selection due to nerves. I'm blaming that postage stamp racquet again...! When he needs a little more room for error he doesn't get it...and 2-3% difference can make all the difference when it comes to 5 setters.

bogbrush wrote:Federer is simply such an incredible talent that on the whole 5 sets isn't required. Whe it comes to that, the circumstances have often been so exceptional that there's a very good reason why he might not prevail.

It's in the same "family" of logic as why he would have better h2h with Rafa if he'd been an inferior clay court player; he'd have a better 5 set record if he was bad enough to get into many 5 set scraps with inferior players.

The numbers don't really bear this out though

Fed
Grand slam matches played: 290
5th sets played: 38
Number of matches per 5th set: 7.6

Rafa
Grand slam matches played: 179
5th sets played: 20
Number of matches per 5th set: 9.0

Novak
Grand slam matches played: 167
5th sets played: 24
Number of matches per 5th: 7.0

So Fed isn't playing proportionally fewer 5th sets. He's needing to play them at about the same rate as his rivals but losing a significantly greater proportion of them.

I think if anything with Federer's BO5 set record at the Slams is the TB record. 107-47 as of 2013 which is a 69.4% success rate. Just a ridiculous record. For me especially in the latter stage of his career this will be crucial and to me in matches when barely holding serve, you can guarantee most times he will come out on top in a tiebreaker.

Winning the 4th TB didn't help him much today though...

It is odd how he's top of TB list but really quite far down the 5th set list...it doesn't add up.

lydian wrote:Winning the 4th TB didn't help him much today though...

Better than losing it though

lydian wrote:Winning the 4th TB didn't help him much today though...

It kept him in the match though.....

Aside Nadal or Djokovic I doubt any would've put him away quicker and taken one of the TB's.

Correct JHM but as I just added above, it's weird he wins a lot of TBs but then not the 5th sets.

banbrotam wrote:

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Grinders always do better in the 5th sets of a match than flair players

Great point and true

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Federer would rather play with skill than bore people like Andy and Nadal do.

But you have to spoil it don't you? Did you miss some of the wonderful net play that Andy displayed, like an almost impossible get back from a beautiful backhand that the GOAT did? Is that what grinders do? Please give it a rest. When he's on his game - Andy is a great player to watc

If you think about it, it's remarkable that Fed even came close to beating Murray given how he somehow grabbed the 4th set when Murray was just 2 points away from victory and capitalised on just one mistake in the 2nd set tie breaker, it was very reminiscent of what Federer did to Murray at Wimbledon in the 2nd set. The last 3 sets of this semi had the inevitable sense that Murray would break and he did. There's no doubt Fed had to raise his level in the 4th if he wanted to stay in the hunt (by doing what he hadn't done all match, break Murray) but he did so twice and somehow kept the match going. I feel Fed could have won, but I also feel Murray could have finished this match off quicker but he still won, so it doesn't matter.

I browsed through Rafa's book in Tesco a while back. I seem to recall he wrote that in the 2008 Wimby final, he knew Fed was effectively physically knackered in the 5th set and that all Fed could do was serve. Rafa was convinced all he had do was wait until Fed's serve gave out as well and he'd win.

Maybe this is indicative of what's happened in some of the other 5-set losses.

I ailso think Fed really struggles when he's failed to serve out for the match in the fifth, or has lost match points e.g. against Djoko. It's almost like he feels his chance has gone and he doesn't re-group well enough to create another chance.

For winning deciding sets Federer is 64.8%...26th on Open Era list.
For winning 5th sets he's at 55%...94th on Open Era list.

What is it about the 5th set that sees him drop down so far?

To further confound is his winning ranking when winning or losing the first set is similar...about 6th-8th.

Rafael Nadal's 5-set record is 15-5 (an 75 winning percentage):

2004 US Open R128: Rafael Nadal def. Ivo Heuberger (6-0, 6-3, 4-6, 2-6, 6-3)
2005 Australian Open R64: Rafael Nadal def. Mikhail Youzhny (6-1, 4-6, 4-6, 7-5, 6-3)
2005 Australian Open R16: Lleyton Hewitt def. Rafael Nadal (7-5, 3-6, 1-6, 7-6, 6-2)
2005 Miami F: Roger Federer def. Rafael Nadal (2-6, 6-7, 7-6, 6-3, 6-1)
2005 Rome F: Rafael Nadal def. Guillermo Coria (6-4, 3-6, 6-3, 4-6, 7-6)
2005 Madrid Indoor F: Rafael Nadal def. Ivan Ljubicic (3-6, 2-6, 6-3, 6-4, 7-6)
2006 Rome F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-7, 7-6, 6-4, 2-6, 7-6)
2006 Wimbledon R64: Rafael Nadal def. Robert Kendrick (6-7, 3-6, 7-6, 7-5, 6-4)
2007 Australian Open R16: Rafael Nadal def. Andy Murray (6-7, 6-4, 4-6, 6-3, 6-1)
2007 Wimbledon R32: Rafael Nadal def. Robin Soderling (6-4, 6-4, 6-7, 4-6, 7-5)
2007 Wimbledon R16: Rafael Nadal def. Mikhail Youzhny (4-6, 3-6, 6-1, 6-2, 6-2)
2007 Wimbledon F: Roger Federer def. Rafael Nadal (7-6, 4-6, 7-6, 2-6, 6-2)
2008 Wimbledon F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-4, 6-4, 6-7, 6-7, 9-7)
2009 Australian Open SF: Rafael Nadal def. Fernando Verdasco (6-7, 6-4, 7-6, 6-7, 6-4)
2009 Australian Open F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (7-5, 3-6, 7-6, 3-6, 6-2)
2010 Wimbledon R64: Rafael Nadal def. Robin Haase (5-7, 6-2, 3-6, 6-0, 6-3)
2010 Wimbledon R32: Rafael Nadal def. Philipp Petzschner (6-4, 4-6, 6-7, 6-2, 6-3)
2011 French Open R128: Rafael Nadal def. John Isner (6-4, 6-7, 6-7, 6-2, 6-4)
2012 Australian Open F: Novak Djokovic def. Rafael Nadal (5-7, 6-4, 6-2, 6-7, 7-5)
2012 Wimbledon R64: Lukas Rosol def. Rafael Nadal (6-7, 6-4, 6-4, 2-6, 6-4)


Novak Djokovic's 5-set record is 17/5 (77.27 winning percentage)

2012 USO F: Andy Murray d. Novak Djokovic (7-6, 7-5, 2-6, 3-6, 6-2) **Murray's first GS title**
2012 FO QF: Novak Djokovic d. Jo-Wilfried Tsonga (6-1, 5-7, 5-7, 7-6, 6-2)
2012 RG R16: Novak Djokovic d. Andreas Seppi (4-6, 6-7, 6-3, 7-5, 6-3)
2012 Australian Open F: Novak Djokovic d. Rafael Nadal (5-7, 6-4, 6-2, 6-7, 7-5)
2012 Australian Open SF: Novak Djokovic d. Andy Murray (6-3, 3-6, 6-7, 6-1, 7-5)
2011 US Open SF: Djokovic d. Federer (6-7, 4-6, 6-3, 6-2, 7-5)
2010 US Open SF: Djokovic d. Federer (5-7, 6-1, 5-7, 6-2, 7-5)
2010 US Open R128: Djokovic d. Troicki (6-3, 3-6, 2-6, 7-5, 6-3)
2010 Wimbledon: Djokovic d. Rochus (4-6, 6-2, 3-6, 6-4, 6-2)
2010 French Open: Melzer d. Djokovic (6-3, 6-2, 2-6, 6-7, 4-6)
2010 Australian Open: Tsonga d. Djokovic (6-7, 7-6, 6-1, 3-6, 1-6)
2010 Davis Cup (clay): Djokovic d. Isner (7-5, 3-6, 6-3, 6-7, 6-4)
2008 US Open: Djokovic d. Robredo (4-6, 6-2, 6-3, 5-7, 6-3)
2007 US Open: Djokovic D. Stepanek (6-7, 7-6, 5-7, 7-5, 7-6)
2007 Wimbledon: Djokovic d. Baghdatis (7-6, 7-6, 6-7, 4-6, 7-5)
2007 French Open: Djokovic d. Patience (7-6, 2-6, 3-6, 7-6, 6-3)
2006 Wimbledon: Ancic d. Djokovic (4-6, 6-4, 6-4, 5-7, 3-6)
2006 French Open: Djokovic d. Gonzolez (6-4, 6-1, 3-6, 4-6, 6-1)
2006 Davis Cup (HC): Djokovic d. Wawrinka (6-4, 3-6, 2-6, 7-6, 6-4)
2005 US Open: Djokovic d. Monfils (7-5, 4-6, 7-6, 0-6, 7-5)
2005 US Open: Verdasco d. Djokovic (1-6, 6-4, 7-6, 4-6, 4-6)
2005 Wimbledon: Djokovic d. Garcia-Lopez (3-6, 3-6, 7-6, 7-6, 6-4)
2005 Davis Cup (clay): Rochus d. Djokovic (1-6, 7-5, 6-7, 6-1, 6-3)

(Does not include Wawrinka AO 2013)

Andy Murray's 5-set record is 13-6 (a 68.42 winning percentage):

2005 Wimbledon R32: David Nalbandian def. Andy Murray (6-7, 1-6, 6-0, 6-4, 6-1)
2005 US Open R128: Andy Murray def. Andrei Pavel (6-3, 3-6, 3-6, 6-1, 6-4)
2005 US Open R64: Arnaud Clement def. Andy Murray (6-2, 7-6, 2-6, 6-7, 6-0)
2006 French Open R128: Gael Monfils def. Andy Murray (6-4, 6-7, 1-6, 6-2, 6-1)
2006 Davis Cup: Andy Murray def. Andy Ram (2-6, 4-6, 7-5, 6-2, 6-3)
2006 US Open R32: Andy Murray def. Fernando Gonzalez (6-3, 3-6, 2-6, 6-3, 6-2)
2007 Australian Open R16: Rafael Nadal def. Andy Murray (6-7, 6-4, 4-6, 6-3, 6-1)
2007 US Open R64: Andy Murray def. Jonas Bjorkman (5-7, 6-3, 6-1, 4-6, 6-1)
2007 Davis Cup: Andy Murray def. Marin Cilic (3-6, 6-4, 6-2, 4-6, 6-3)
2008 French Open R128: Andy Murray def. Jonathan Eysseric (6-2, 1-6, 4-6, 6-0, 6-2)
2008 Wimbledon R16: Andy Murray def. Richard Gasquet (5-7, 3-6, 7-6, 6-2, 6-4)
2008 US Open R32: Andy Murray def. Jurgen Melzer (6-7, 4-6, 7-6, 6-1, 6-3)
2009 Australian Open R16: Fernando Verdasco def. Andy Murray (2-6, 6-1, 1-6, 6-3, 6-4)
2009 Wimbledon R16: Andy Murray def. Stanislas Wawrinka (2-6, 6-3, 6-3, 5-7, 6-3)
2010 French Open R128: Andy Murray def. Richard Gasquet (4-6, 6-7, 6-4, 6-2, 6-1)
2011 French Open R16: Andy Murray def. Viktor Troicki (4-6, 4-6, 6-3, 6-2, 7-5)
2011 US Open R64: Andy Murray def. Robin Haase (6-7, 2-6, 6-2, 6-0, 6-4)
2012 Australian Open SF: Novak Djokovic def. Andy Murray (6-3, 3-6, 6-7, 6-1, 7-5)
2012 US Open F: Andy Murray def. Novak Djokovic (7-6, 7-5, 2-6, 3-6, 6-2)

(Does not include Federer AO 2013)

Roger Federer's 5-set record is 20-16 (a 55.56 winning percentage):

1999 Wimbledon R128: Jiri Novak def. Roger Federer (6-3, 3-6, 4-6, 6-3, 6-4)
1999 Davis Cup QF: Christophe Van Garsse def. Roger Federer (7-6, 3-6, 1-6, 7-5, 6-1)
2000 French Open R32: Roger Federer def. Michel Kratochvil (7-6, 6-4, 2-6, 6-7, 8-6)
2000 Davis Cup: Roger Federer def. Vladimir Voltchkov (4-6, 7-5, 7-6, 5-7, 6-2)
2000 US Open R128: Roger Federer def. Peter Wessels (4-6, 4-6, 6-3, 7-5, 3-4 ret.)
2000 Basel F: Thomas Enqvist def. Roger Federer (6-2, 4-6, 7-6, 1-6, 6-1)
2001 French Open R64: Roger Federer def. Sargis Sargsian (4-6, 3-6, 6-2, 6-4, 9-7)
2001 Wimbledon R64: Roger Federer def. Xavier Malisse (6-3, 7-5, 3-6, 4-6, 6-3)
2001 Wimbledon R16: Roger Federer def. Pete Sampras (7-6, 5-7, 6-4, 6-7, 7-5)
2002 Australian Open R16: Tommy Haas def. Roger Federer (7-6, 4-6, 3-6, 6-4, 8-6)
2003 Australian Open R16: David Nalbandian def. Roger Federer (6-4, 3-6, 6-1, 1-6, 6-3)
2003 Gstaad F: Jiri Novak def. Roger Federer (5-7, 6-3, 6-3, 1-6, 6-3)
2003 Davis Cup SF: Lleyton Hewitt def. Roger Federer (5-7, 2-6, 7-6, 7-5, 6-1)
2004 US Open QF: Roger Federer def. Andre Agassi (6-3, 2-6, 7-5, 3-6, 6-3)
2005 Australian Open SF: Marat Safin def. Roger Federer (5-7, 6-4, 5-7, 7-6, 9-7)
2005 Miami F: Roger Federer def. Rafael Nadal (2-6, 6-7, 7-6, 6-3, 6-1)
2005 Masters Cup F: David Nalbandian def. Roger Federer (6-7, 6-7, 6-2, 6-1, 7-6)
2006 Australian Open R16: Roger Federer def. Tommy Haas (6-4, 6-0, 3-6, 4-6, 6-2)
2006 Rome F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-7, 7-6, 6-4, 2-6, 7-6)
2007 Wimbledon F: Roger Federer def. Rafael Nadal (7-6, 4-6, 7-6, 2-6, 6-2)
2008 Australian Open R32: Roger Federer def. Janko Tipsarevic (6-7, 7-6, 5-7, 6-1, 10-8 )
2008 Wimbledon F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-4, 6-4, 6-7, 6-7, 9-7)
2008 US Open R16: Roger Federer def. Igor Andreev (6-7, 7-6, 6-3, 3-6, 6-3)
2009 Australian Open R16: Roger Federer def. Tomas Berdych (4-6, 6-7, 6-4, 6-4, 6-2)
2009 Australian Open F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (7-5, 3-6, 7-6, 3-6, 6-2)
2009 French Open R16: Roger Federer def. Tommy Haas (6-7, 5-7, 6-4, 6-0, 6-2)
2009 French Open SF: Roger Federer def. Juan Martin del Potro (3-6, 7-6, 2-6, 6-1, 6-4)
2009 Wimbledon F: Roger Federer def. Andy Roddick (5-7, 7-6, 7-6, 3-6, 16-14)
2009 US Open F: Juan Martin del Potro def. Roger Federer (3-6, 7-6, 4-6, 7-6, 6-2)
2010 Wimbledon R128: Roger Federer def. Alejandro Falla (5-7, 4-6, 6-4, 7-6, 6-0)
2010 US Open SF: Novak Djokovic def. Roger Federer (5-7, 6-1, 5-7, 6-2, 7-5)
2011 Australian Open R64: Roger Federer def. Gilles Simon (6-2, 6-3, 4-6, 4-6, 6-3)
2011 Wimbledon QF: Jo-Wilfried Tsonga def. Roger Federer (3-6, 6-7, 6-4, 6-4, 6-4)
2011 US Open SF: Novak Djokovic def. Roger Federer (6-7, 4-6, 6-3, 6-2, 7-5)
2012 French Open QF: Roger Federer def. Juan Martin del Potro (3-6, 6-7, 6-2, 6-0, 6-3)
2012 Wimbledon R32: Roger Federer def. Julien Benneteau (4-6, 6-7, 6-2, 7-6, 6-1)

(Does not include Murray and Tsonga AO 2013)

Source: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=335267

Interesting stuff LF, thanks. Is it me, or do a lot of Federer's 5 set matches come in the very late stages of a tournament relative to the others?

There are maybe a few points here:-

1) Tiredness probably affects Federer's style of play more than others - the margins are smaller for attacking players (and players with a small sweet spot on their racquet).

2) Federer is not quite up there with Djoko, Nadal or Murray physically even at his peak.. I would probably expect Federer to have a near 100% loss record against D, N or M if it came down to a fifth set. (Although he did get Nadal when he was 18 in Miami and once at Wimbledon in 2007 when he reigned supreme).

3) I think Federer took time to develop into a fully fledged player. If you take his record from 2004 onwards then you get 75% fifth set record (once removing D, N and M). Cherry picking you may say, but I think it offers some kind of insight as to where his 5th set record is poor.


Generally I'd say the difference between TB record and fifth set record possibly comes down to two aspects:-

1) It takes a player playing a good set to push Federer to a tie-breaker, but it takes a player playing a very good match to push him to a 5th set. Hence the 5th set matches will be playing against someone who's playing very well (leaving aside his 3 main rivals) whereas his TB's will often just be against players who've had a decent set.

2) Physicality has less impact in a TB (since the average # games played before a TB will be a lot less than the average # games played before a 5th set), and tiredness will have more impact on his type of game where margins are small.

I'd say the obvious newer then is that he suffers more from getting tired. The tie break record proves he has nerve.

HM Murdoch wrote:I believe that, after today, Roger's record in 5th sets now stands at:
Played: 38
Won: 21
Lost: 17
55% win rate

That's comparatively low.

Novak and Rafa both have a 75% win rate (Novak 18/6, Rafa 15/5). Andy is at 70% now (14/6).

For all the talk about Roger getting older, can we also conclude that Roger has just never been that great at 5th sets?

Novak / Rafa has played so many 5 sets against very low rated players, if Fed would have played players like Rosol/Nishikori 100 times he would come up trump 99 times at the least. I don't see it as a blemish I rather see the other way Fed doesn't need 5 sets to win most players he only needed 3 on most of his hey days, something Novak is working on right now but even on his prime days he is being taken to 5 sets by players like Seppi and co.

Interesting to see the lists of matches.

Just looking at the matches since 2007, when Andy and Djokovic established themselves near the top of the game:

Djoko has won 13 (including Stan) and lost 3 - Melzer on clay, Tsonga and Murray (USO final)

Murray has now 11 wins and 3 losses - Nadal, Verdasco and Djokovic

Nadal has 9 wins and 3 losses - Fed (Wimbledon Final), Djoko (AO final) and Rosol

Federer has 12 wins (including Tsonga) and 7 losses - Nadal x 2, Del Potro, Djoko x 2, Tsonga and now Murray.

Also, looking back to 'prime' Federer, he played very few 5 setters between 2004 and 2007, and only lost to an inspired Safin and Nalbandian (respectively 9-7 and TB in the 5th), and to Nadal on clay in Rome (in a 5th set TB)

Of all of the above losses, only two occurred before the QF stage of a slam - Murray's loss in Australia 09 to Verdasco and Rafa's shocker against Rosol last year. It's also reasonable to argue that it's a pretty good selection of players that have beaten them - other than the top 4 beating each other, Tsonga and Del Potro are the type of players that can have very good days and beat anyone. Other than Verdaco and Rosol, only Djoko's loss to Melzer sticks out as a bit of a surprise.

So the conclusion when thinking about Federer is that yes his 5 set record is a bit worse than you'd expect, but he does even now only lose them to very good players. Fitness, particularly the ability to maintain his level late in matches, does appear to be a likely cause, but it's not been a hugely detrimental effect on Roger's legacy.

banbrotam wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:I think it's because Federer doesn't like getting into a scrap as much as Nadal or Djokovic.

100% correct. Roger's issue in 2008/9 (when he went (was it) 18 months without winning a Masters) that he suddenly had to find fighting qualities never asked from him when he was on the rise

He's a sublime instinctive player first, the fighting aspect is somewhat secondary to him - similar to another one of my faves, namely Mac

In fairness, I defend him. I stated two years ago that I'd rather Murray goes his career without winning a Slam, than converts himself into some ball-basher, who sweeps all before us i.e.

The variety they displayed today, the wonderful angled shot making, the great use of the slice, the magnificent volleying etc, makes someone like Berdy look like a journeyman

If that results in the likes of Roger not been able to always have enought left in the 5th set, so be it

Best reply on this thread

1.The others (Muzz, Djok, Raf) have boosted their record by struggling to five set matches against lesser players more often in the early rounds.

2. The others are mentally stronger. Fed is strong too, but the others, at least Djok and Raf, are another notch.

3. 5th set is a bit more physical, Fed gets tired while the others are machines.

4. Random chance.

EDIT: After seeing Federer go to a 6-0 record in tiebreaks at the AO, all against good players, I was reminded of his good tiebreak record and wondered if that coud be a factor here, but the stats posted above don't seem to bear that out.

@BanBro...

Since you mentioned Mac...

John McEnroe's 5-set record is 26-13 (a 66.67 winning percentage):

1977 French Open R64: Phil Dent def. John McEnroe (4-6, 6-2, 4-6, 6-3, 6-3)
1977 Wimbledon QF: John McEnroe def. Phil Dent (6-4, 8-9, 4-6, 6-3, 6-4)
1978 Wimbledon R128: Erik Van Dillen def. John McEnroe (7-5, 1-6, 8-9, 6-4, 6-3)
1980 Philadelphia F: Jimmy Connors def. John McEnroe (6-3, 2-6, 6-3, 3-6, 6-4)
1980 Davis Cup QF: Guillermo Vilas def. John McEnroe (6-2, 4-6, 6-3, 2-6, 6-4)
1980 Wimbledon R64: John McEnroe def. Terry Rocavert (4-6, 7-5, 6-7, 7-6, 6-3)
1980 Wimbledon F: Bjorn Borg def. John McEnroe (1-6, 7-5, 6-3, 6-7, 8-6)
1980 US Open SF: John McEnroe def. Jimmy Connors (6-4, 5-7, 0-6, 6-3, 7-6)
1980 US Open F: John McEnroe def. Bjorn Borg (7-6, 6-1, 6-7, 5-7, 6-4)
1981 US Open SF: John McEnroe def. Vitas Gerulaitis (5-7, 6-3, 6-2, 4-6, 6-3)
1981 Wembley F: Jimmy Connors def. John McEnroe (3-6, 2-6, 6-3, 6-4, 6-2)
1981 Davis Cup F: John McEnroe def. Jose-Luis Clerc (7-5, 5-7, 6-3, 3-6, 6-3)
1982 WCT Dallas QF: John McEnroe def. Bill Scanlon (5-7, 6-4, 2-6, 7-6, 6-4)
1982 Wimbledon F: Jimmy Connors def. John McEnroe (3-6, 6-3, 6-7, 7-6, 6-4)
1982 Davis Cup QF: John McEnroe def. Mats Wilander (9-7, 6-2, 15-17, 3-6, 8-6)
1982 US Open QF: John McEnroe def. Gene Mayer (4-6, 7-6, 6-3, 4-6, 6-1)
1982 Davis Cup F: John McEnroe def. Yannick Noah (12-10, 1-6, 3-6, 6-2, 6-3)
1983 Davis Cup 1R: Jose-Luis Clerc def. John McEnroe (6-4, 6-0, 3-6, 4-6, 7-5)
1983 WCT Dallas F: John McEnroe def. Ivan Lendl (6-2, 4-6, 6-3, 6-7, 7-6)
1983 French Open R128: John McEnroe def. Ben Testerman (3-6, 6-1, 6-2, 6-7, 6-2)
1983 US Open R128: John McEnroe def. Trey Waltke (6-3, 5-7, 4-6, 6-0, 6-1)
1984 French Open F: Ivan Lendl def. John McEnroe (3-6, 2-6, 6-4, 7-5, 7-5)
1984 US Open SF: John McEnroe def. Jimmy Connors (6-4, 4-6, 7-5, 4-6, 6-3)
1985 French Open QF: John McEnroe def. Joakim Nystrom (6-7, 6-2, 6-3, 3-6, 7-5)
1985 US Open R128: John McEnroe def. Shlomo Glickstein (6-1, 6-7, 2-6, 6-3, 7-6)
1985 US Open SF: John McEnroe def. Mats Wilander (3-6, 6-4, 4-6, 6-3, 6-3)
1985 Australian Open R16: John McEnroe def. Henri Leconte (5-7, 7-6, 3-6, 7-6, 6-1)
1985 Australian Open QF: Slobodan Zivojinovic def. John McEnroe (2-6, 6-3, 1-6, 6-4, 6-0)
1986 Antwerp F: John McEnroe def. Miloslav Mecir (6-3, 1-6, 7-6, 5-7, 6-2)
1987 Davis Cup: Boris Becker def. John McEnroe (4-6, 15-13, 8-10, 6-2, 6-2)
1987 US Open R32: John McEnroe def. Slobodan Zivojinovic (6-4, 5-7, 6-7, 6-4, 6-3)
1988 Davis Cup: John McEnroe def. Guillermo Perez-Roldan (6-2, 5-7, 6-4, 3-6, 6-3)
1988 US Open R64: Mark Woodforde def. John McEnroe (7-5, 4-6, 6-7, 6-3, 6-1)
1989 Wimbledon R128: John McEnroe def. Darren Cahill (4-6, 4-6, 6-2, 6-3, 8-6)
1990 US Open R16: John McEnroe def. Emilio Sanchez (7-6, 3-6, 4-6, 6-4, 6-3)
1990 Basel F: John McEnroe def. Goran Ivanisevic (6-7, 4-6, 7-6, 6-3, 6-4)
1991 US Open R32: Michael Chang def. John McEnroe (6-4, 4-6, 7-6, 2-6, 6-3)
1992 Australian Open R16: John McEnroe def. Emilio Sanchez (7-5, 7-6, 4-6, 2-6, 8-6)
1992 Wimbledon R64: John McEnroe def. Pat Cash (6-7, 6-4, 6-7, 6-3, 6-2)


Borg...

Bjorn Borg's 5-set record at 27-6 (a 81.82 winning percentage).

1972 Davis Cup 1R: Bjorn Borg def. Onny Parun (4-6, 3-6, 6-3, 6-4, 6-4)
1973 Davis Cup QF: Bjorn Borg def. Antonio Munoz (5-7, 6-3, 6-3, 3-6, 7-5)
1973 Wimbledon R32: Bjorn Borg def. Karl Meiler (6-4, 6-4, 3-6, 2-6, 6-3)
1973 Wimbledon R16: Bjorn Borg def. Szabolcz Baranyi (6-3, 6-2, 6-8, 5-7, 6-1)
1973 Wimbledon QF: Roger Taylor def. Bjorn Borg (6-1, 6-8, 3-6, 6-3, 7-5)
1973 US Open R128: Bjorn Borg def. Roy Barth (3-6, 6-7, 6-4, 6-1, 6-2)
1974 Davis Cup 1R: Bjorn Borg def. Tadeusz Nowicki (2-6, 6-2, 0-6, 6-1, 6-1)
1974 Rome SF: Bjorn Borg def. Guillermo Vilas (2-6, 3-6, 6-3, 6-4, 7-5)
1974 French Open R16: Bjorn Borg def. Erik Van Dillen (0-6, 6-3, 6-3, 5-7, 6-3)
1974 French Open QF: Bjorn Borg def. Raul Ramirez (6-2, 5-7, 4-6, 6-2, 6-3)
1974 French Open F: Bjorn Borg def. Manuel Orantes (2-6, 6-7, 6-0, 6-1, 6-1)
1974 Boston SF: Bjorn Borg def. Jan Kodes (7-6, 6-0, 1-6, 2-6, 7-6)
1974 US Open R64: Vijay Amritraj def. Bjorn Borg (6-1, 7-6, 3-6, 1-6, 6-2)
1974 Madrid F: Ilie Nastase def. Bjorn Borg (6-4, 5-7, 6-2, 4-6, 6-4)
1975 WCT Dallas SF: Bjorn Borg def. Rod Laver (7-6, 3-6, 5-7, 7-6, 6-2)
1976 WCT Challenge Cup SF: Ilie Nastase def. Bjorn Borg (6-1, 3-6, 4-6, 6-3, 6-4)
1976 French Open R16: Bjorn Borg def. Francois Jauffret (6-4, 6-2, 3-6, 4-6, 10-8 )
1976 US Open R16: Bjorn Borg def. Brian Gottfried (6-7, 3-6, 6-4, 6-4, 6-2)
1976 US Open QF: Bjorn Borg def. Manuel Orantes (4-6, 6-0, 6-2, 5-7, 6-4)
1977 Wimbledon R64: Bjorn Borg def. Mark Edmondson (3-6, 7-9, 6-2, 6-4, 6-1)
1977 Wimbledon SF: Bjorn Borg def. Vitas Gerulaitis (6-4, 3-6, 6-3, 3-6, 8-6)
1977 Wimbledon F: Bjorn Borg def. Jimmy Connors (3-6, 6-2, 6-1, 5-7, 6-4)
1978 Rome F: Bjorn Borg def. Adriano Panatta (1-6, 6-3, 6-1, 4-6, 6-3)
1978 Wimbledon R128: Bjorn Borg def. Victor Amaya (8-9, 6-1, 1-6, 6-3, 6-3)
1979 Wimbledon R64: Bjorn Borg def. Vijay Amritraj (2-6, 6-4, 4-6, 7-6, 6-2)
1979 Wimbledon F: Bjorn Borg def. Roscoe Tanner (6-7, 6-1, 3-6, 6-3, 6-4)
1980 Wimbledon F: Bjorn Borg def. John McEnroe (1-6, 7-5, 6-3, 6-7, 8-6)
1980 US Open QF: Bjorn Borg def. Roscoe Tanner (6-4, 3-6, 4-6, 7-5, 6-3)
1980 US Open SF: Bjorn Borg def. Johan Kriek (4-6, 4-6, 6-1, 6-1, 6-1)
1980 US Open F: John McEnroe def. Bjorn Borg (7-6, 6-1, 6-7, 5-7, 6-4)
1980 Basel F: Ivan Lendl def. Bjorn Borg (6-3, 6-2, 5-7, 0-6, 6-4)
1981 French Open F: Bjorn Borg def. Ivan Lendl (6-1, 4-6, 6-2, 3-6, 6-1)
1981 Wimbledon SF: Bjorn Borg def. Jimmy Connors (0-6, 4-6, 6-3, 6-0, 6-4)


Ivan Lendl: 36-22 in 5-sets mathces (62.1%)

Davis Cup 1979, CZE vs SWE: W Kjell JOHANSSON (SWE) 8-10 6-4 6-4 4-6 6-1
Davis Cup 1979, ITA vs CZE: L Corrado BARAZZUTTI (ITA) 6-4 1-6 2-6 6-3 5-7
RG 1980, R32: L Brian GOTTFRIED (USA) 6-2 6-7 6-1 5-7 3-6
Barcelona 1980, F: W Guillermo VILAS (ARG) 6-4 5-7 6-4 4-6 6-1
Basle 1980, F: W Bjorn BORG (SWE) 6-3 6-2 5-7 0-6 6-4
AO 1980, R32: L Pat DU PRE (USA) 5-7 3-6 6-3 6-2 6-7
RG 1981, R64: W Andres GOMEZ (ECU) 6-2 3-6 2-6 7-6 6-4
RG 1981, SF: W Jose-Luis CLERC (ARG) 3-6 6-4 4-6 7-6 6-2
RG 1981, F: L Bjorn BORG (SWE) 1-6 6-4 2-6 6-3 1-6
W 1981, R128: L Charles FANCUTT (AUS) 6-4 3-6 4-6 6-1 3-6
USO 1981, R16: L Vitas GERULAITIS (USA) 3-6 4-6 6-3 6-3 4-6
Masters 1981, F: W Vitas GERULAITIS (USA) 6-7 2-6 7-6 6-2 6-4
Madrid 1982, F: L Guillermo VILAS (ARG) 7-6 6-4 0-6 3-6 3-6
RG 1982, R16: L Mats WILANDER (SWE) 6-4 5-7 6-3 4-6 2-6
Davis Cup 1982, FRA vs CZE: W Thierry TULASNE (FRA) 6-3 4-6 6-3 9-11 6-4
Davis Cup 1982, FRA vs CZE: L Yannick NOAH (FRA) 2-6 6-3 9-7 3-6 4-6
USO 1982, R64: W Tim MAYOTTE (USA) 6-4 3-6 4-6 7-6 6-4
WCT Finals 1983, F: L John MCENROE (USA) 2-6 6-4 3-6 7-6 6-7
RG 1984, F: W John MCENROE (USA) 3-6 2-6 6-4 7-5 7-5
W 1984, R128: W Dick STOCKTON (USA) 4-6 6-0 6-3 5-7 6-4
W 1984, R16: W Scott DAVIS (USA) 4-6 6-4 6-4 5-7 7-5
USO 1984, SF: W Pat CASH (AUS) 3-6 6-3 6-4 6-7 7-6
Davis Cup 1984, SWE vs CZE: L Henrik SUNDSTROM (SWE) 6-4 6-3 3-6 1-6 1-6
WCT Finals 1985, QF: W Stefan EDBERG (SWE) 3-6 7-6 3-6 6-1 6-2
W 1985, R64: W Mike LEACH (USA) 6-3 1-6 6-2 6-7 6-4
Wembley 1985, F: W Boris BECKER (GER) 6-7 6-3 4-6 6-4 6-4
AO 1985, SF: L Stefan EDBERG (SWE) 7-6 5-7 1-6 6-4 7-9
Boca West 1986, SF: W Jimmy CONNORS (USA) 1-6 6-1 6-2 2-6 5-2 DEF
W 1986, QF: W Tim MAYOTTE (USA) 6-4 4-6 6-4 3-6 9-7
W 1986, SF: W Slobodan ZIVOJINOVIC (YUG) 6-2 6-7 6-3 6-7 6-4
Key Biscayne 1987, R64: W Paul ANNACONE (USA) 5-7 7-6 4-6 6-2 6-2
RG 1987, R16: W Joakim NYSTROM (SWE) 2-6 6-1 5-7 6-0 6-2
W 1987, R64: W Paolo CANE (ITA) 3-6 7-6 6-7 7-5 6-1
AO 1988, SF: L Pat CASH (AUS) 4-6 6-2 2-6 6-4 2-6
Rome 1988, F: W Guillermo PEREZ-ROLDAN (ARG) 2-6 6-4 6-2 4-6 6-4
W 1988, R32: W Michiel SCHAPERS (NED) 6-7 7-6 6-4 6-7 6-1
W 1988, R16: W Mark WOODFORDE (AUS) 7-5 6-7 6-7 7-5 10-8
USO 1988, R128: W Amos MANSDORF (ISR) 6-2 6-7 6-1 5-7 6-0
USO 1988, F: L Mats WILANDER (SWE) 4-6 6-4 3-6 7-5 4-6
Masters 1988, F: L Boris BECKER (GER) 7-5 6-7 6-3 2-6 6-7
WCT Finals 1989, QF: W Jakob HLASEK (SUI) 7-6 1-6 7-6 6-7 7-6
RG 1989, R16: L Michael CHANG (USA) 6-4 6-4 3-6 3-6 3-6
W 1989, R128: W Nicolas PEREIRA (VEN) 7-6 4-6 6-3 6-7 6-1
W 1989, SF: L Boris BECKER (GER) 5-7 7-6 6-2 4-6 3-6
USO 1989, R16: W Andrei CHESNOKOV (URS) 6-3 4-6 1-6 6-4 6-3
USO 1990, QF: L Pete SAMPRAS (USA) 4-6 6-7 6-3 6-4 2-6
AO 1991, SF: W Stefan EDBERG (SWE) 6-4 5-7 3-6 7-6(3) 6-4
Philadelphia 1991, F: W Pete SAMPRAS (USA) 5-7 6-4 6-4 3-6 6-3
W 1991, R64: W MaliVai WASHINGTON (USA) 4-6 2-6 6-4 6-4 7-5
USO 1991, R128: W Richard KRAJICEK (NED) 3-6 2-6 6-4 7-6 6-0
USO 1991, QF: W Michael STICH (GER) 6-3 3-6 4-6 7-6 6-1
GS Cup 1991, SF: L Michael CHANG (USA) 6-2 6-4 4-6 6-7(5) 7-9
AO 1992, QF: L Stefan EDBERG (SWE) 6-4 5-7 1-6 7-6(5) 1-6
RG 1992, R64: L Jaime ONCINS (BRA) 6-3 6-3 3-6 2-6 6-8
W 1992, R32: W Sandon STOLLE (AUS) 6-3 1-6 2-6 6-3 7-5
USO 1992, R128: W Jaime YZAGA (PER) 6-7 6-1 7-5 4-6 6-3
USO 1992, R16: W Boris BECKER (GER) 6-7 6-2 6-7 6-3 6-4
USO 1992, QF: L Stefan EDBERG (SWE) 3-6 3-6 6-3 7-5 6-7

Hands up - how many people knew who beat McEnroe at Wimby 1978? Erik who?