What to do with a problem like Phillips

One of the biggest discussion points for the upcoming lions tour is the scrum half / flanker that is Phillips. Never in recent history has one player brought so many polar opinions, from a sure fire starter to not even on the plane in the minds of posters

But what does Phillips have that would make us want him in the lions team, or is he a failed experiment of large men in the wrong positons

We know Phillips brings aggression, toughness and a fairly good turn of pace. He can keep the flankers guessing and can create a good break. He is solid in defense and has improved his passing out of the rucks.

But is his flankiness enough to cover from his limitations at the core of scrumhalfiness?

Can he control a game, change the direction, bring into attack players and mix it up enough. Does he spend too much time looking to hug the opposition, is he too slow getting the ball out of the ruck and does he have too much gravel in his tracks making him go route one too often


For the lions, do we need an extra flanker? Does he bring enough to the party? Does he bring a different dish to put on the barbie that gives us options? Is he the cure, or the disease? Is he the one or the bum?

In short should he go, start or stay at home?

He is very talked about, but despite not being a fan I stii havn't heard an argument against him that isn't flawed.

He is if nothing else the most confrontational, experienced and best defencive 9 we have, that is not debatable in any way shape or form, and on that basis alone he goes.

go. test starter. defo. end of.

He should stay at home but I suspect he will be in the starting XV because he suits the very limited game that Gatland likes. Gatland likes backs who run at the opposition rather than those who create or seek space.

Squad slot definately, test starter maybe not but once on tour I wouldn't bet against it.

He loves a good fight and with Wales maybe thats been his problem, he hasn't really had a serious challenger for his test slot in recent seasons and I still think hes best of the bunch we have.

Stay at home. a poor scrum half. he looks good at what he does but people forget what he doesn't do - which is get the ball into attackers hands quickly.

Youngs, Laidlaw, Murray, etc etc - we don't need him

TJ

Typical example of misjudged situation though, the 9 has little impact on how quick the ball gets out of the ruck!

Of those 9's who is experienced? Who is the one going to stand up and be counted when the chips are down? Who will push each other harder than Phillips would?

I agree. After watching the highlights he really did stand up and was counter for. He showed great leadership along with Ryan Jones that helped Wales through the tricky situations. You can't ignore that.

His service is slow unfortunately but in recent times he hasn't been helped by the forwards poor play at the breakdown. He can only do so much I suppose when he is being presented himself with poor ball.

For me, there isn't anyone playing well enough to justify getting selected ahead of him for Wales. For the Lions, he'll bring something different and the priceless advantage of being on a Lions tour before hand. I like Care and Youngs for England, but Phillips will be the versatility that will cause problems for Australia.

How do you solve a problem like Phillips?
How do you catch a cloud and pin it down?

Maybe get him to attend a few of Ben Young's training sessions.

I think Phillips will go on the tour and I think he will start the first test. He has beaten off competion from more 'attractive' scrum halves for the welsh shirt under Gatland (Peel, Cooper?, Roberts, Webb, Williams), so I can't see why he will not be Gats favourite come the Lions tour, unles Murray gets the nod instead.

thebluesmancometh wrote:TJ

Typical example of misjudged situation though, the 9 has little impact on how quick the ball gets out of the ruck!

Of those 9's who is experienced? Who is the one going to stand up and be counted when the chips are down? Who will push each other harder than Phillips would?

When every time he is slower to get the ball away than it is presented IE that after the ball is available there is a significant dfelay untill he passes it then its his fault the ball is slow.

he is slow to the rucks, when he gets there he is slow to pass the ball usually standing with his hands on it for a second or two then runs two paces sideways then passes it.

I would have any of the mentioned SHs before Philips, I'd have any one of several welsh SHs before him. Wales will continue to lose while you play him, the lions cannot afford a player who is so slow

The problem is he spends his time arranging the strict gameplan implimented, he doesn't just sit at the ruck and look around, he is screaming at forwards to set themselves!!

With regards to the 2 paces, this is over a year old, when Wales played from the ruck straight to the 12, any SH would need the extra yardage and momentum for that kind of pass.

Phillips is no slower now than he was 4 years ago in SA, and he was given all the plaudits! The difference is Wales gameplan is so strict he doesn't have the freedom to just do a Care and throw the ball to 10 the second it shows ot's head.

I will give you he is slow to the ruck, carries too often, and his kciking is constantly too long, but those aside his place on the plane is pretty safe right now.

TJ - can I ask which welsh scrum halves you would take instead? Being serious that is a position we really are short on at the moment.

My issue is that I feel Phillips often finds himself at the bottom of rucks as he feels he has to out muscle the opposition flankers.

he also spends half the the complaining to the ref instead of taking quick ball.

I think he will go, but if he starts I think it will be a sign of the tactics we want to play - which has been shown to not work

thebluesmancometh wrote:The problem is he spends his time arranging the strict gameplan implimented, he doesn't just sit at the ruck and look around, he is screaming at forwards to set themselves!!

With regards to the 2 paces, this is over a year old, when Wales played from the ruck straight to the 12, any SH would need the extra yardage and momentum for that kind of pass.

Phillips is no slower now than he was 4 years ago in SA, and he was given all the plaudits! The difference is Wales gameplan is so strict he doesn't have the freedom to just do a Care and throw the ball to 10 the second it shows ot's head.

I will give you he is slow to the ruck, carries too often, and his kciking is constantly too long, but those aside his place on the plane is pretty safe right now.

So you think a player who is so slow that the outside backs are almost useless should be on the lions tour when the lions will have a fantastic set of backs? So massive flaws in his game but his place on the plane is secure?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:TJ - can I ask which welsh scrum halves you would take instead? Being serious that is a position we really are short on at the moment.

You have not got a lot for sure. Peel or Knoyle for sure. I really think Philips that poor. He makes the welsh backs half as potent as they might be

Peel wont get shout and Knoyle is very very poor mans Phillips.

I honestly cannot see how Phillips is still being talked about as a Lions starter, he may get on the plane as something different but he shouldn't be starting the Tests. He was handy against the Saffas because he was able to match some of their physicality, but that is all he can do.

He has played against Genia and the other Aussie SHs a fair few times now and has always come out second best. The whole thing about him being big has gone ot his head (as it had with many current welsh players) and he now thinks he can run through whoever is in front of him. The number of times i have seen Wales make a break and instead of giving fast ball out wide to exploit a huge overlap, Phillips has gone himself into the 3 forwards guarding the ruck. Everything slows down and the chance has gone.

I also don't think he should be brought along for his experience, it shouldn't really be needed for this series at all. If players like Best, Ferris, Sexton, BOD and Halfpenny are involved there is enough experience there. Also the english team have played away in SA and i'd say thats a more hostile environment than Australia.

Pick the best players to start, Phillips isn't one of them. I'd also add that pure pace is a bigger threat to flankers than someone around the same size of them.

Phillips may not be playing great just now but really, some of the derision aimed at him is disgustingly over the top. Still I shouldn't complain, it's happened before with positive results. Written off before the last Lions tour - shut them up. Written off before the WC - shut them up. Written off now...
I have every confidence Phillips will silence plenty of doubters again soon enough

He also does not have the " annoying little git" factor right - he is a stroppy Bar Steward - not the same thing. The idea is to wind up forwards so they loose the plot, not to lose the plot yourself.

He's an interesting player - not necessarily the finest at the classic scrum half skills (although I think he sometimes cops more criticism than he deserves because of the weakness of others), but a good ball carrier and defender. Sort of the inverse Peter Stringer

In a way its a similar debate to Tom Croft - very good at what he does well, but that these aren't normally the key areas for a player in his position. Can be very effective in certain game plans and situations - if my team was losing the breakdown battle and only getting slow ball I'd rather have Phillips there to dig through the bodies and attack the fringe defence as opposed to a lightweight passing SH, but if the pack is getting good go-forward and quick ball I'd want a better passer who can open the game up more (Youngs, Care).

As for the Lions, I'd expect Phillips to be one of the three SHs taken, but would be disappointed with Gatland's lack of ambition if he is the Test starter.

Straight shoot out with Murray for me to be a physical 9 option for the tour. Going for him he has experience, against him maybe he isn't great for team unity based on some of his previous. Also wasn't his fitness in question during the AI's by Gatland?

This is the same Phillips who's been at 9 for Wales 2 grandslams and the run to the semi-final of the world cup.

Yes, because hes definitely the reason we lost 8 in a row.......

He certainly isnt an on-field leader for this very young welsh team, because he hasnt been there and done it before, very, very well.

His pass isnt lightning, no, but it never has been.

He can ponder at the base of a ruck (even discounting the time he has to wrestle the ball from the ruck) but for me, his forwards should be set in their preoplanned pods a bit quicker. But yes, this is about his one real consistent weakness. He can be slow around the ruck, unecessaarily at times.

His box-kicking is generally pretty good.

"He keeps the fringe defense honest" - thats very much an understatement.

"We dont need an extra flanker" - BULL SHEETS. he defends the fringes when our forwards cant see to be bothered, and he does it with such tenacity people in the know about rugby said he defends like an extra flanker..

Do people genuinely think Phillips is the reason the welsh backline is stuttering? Or that we have better options to go between our stuttering pack and newcomer at 10?

If people seriously suggest Peel/Knoyle/Lloyd Williams are a better fit for the current welsh gameplan I laugh at cheeky attempts at a WUM, or I laugh at your genuine remtardness.

Dont get me wrong, if we had a Ben youngs or Danny Care, I'd start them. But then I'd have picked nearly half a different pack to the first game anyway.

I'd have Phillips as certain to tour with the Lions and a possible starter against Ben Youngs (who would be my personal choice).

Despite people saying he passes the ball awfully because his forwards lose at the breakdown:

a) even when the Welsh forwards were on top form last 6N and when they win at the breakdown, I've never seen him put in a satisfactory passing game- it's one reason the flair of the Welsh backline has died, they have to use power backs who can make momentum and yards with slow ball. It's not the be all and end all - NZ have done well without a passing SH for years. But against Aus you need something more than brute force in the backline and you need to be able to spread the ball quickly as the Australian defence is used to dealing with South Africa and can reset itself quickly. However, they can be vulnerable at the edges of rucks which is where Iron Mike may not be completely useless. But then, Youngs and Care at least are just as dangerous at the fringes in different ways!

b) Other scrum halves can pass quickly with poor service from their back row, because at least some ball will still be good/quick. Youngs and Care have managed it in past years, Genia looked class even when his pack was being dominated. Though Gill is good for the Reds he is not in the top 5 opensides in Super Rugby and Genia-Cooper still got the ball to their backs quickly. Peel looked class at spreading the ball without the best service. It's harder but not as impossible as Bluesman would have you think. You can still at least pass from the floor to speed things up, but Phillips doesn't have that (vital) scrum half skill.

c) the one area Australia are most likely to have an edge in the forwards is the breakdown. We have some good opensides and forwards who get involved in the ruck but Australia have in Hooper, Pocock and Gill (and the retired George Smith, frankly) 3 better fetchers than we do in the whole Isles. If we are canny we can still win the breakdown battle, or we can avoid it or target Pocock with carriers to take him out of the game, but we have to accept it is likely we may have to deal with poor ball for the SH to spread, so we need someone who can at least get it straight to the backs without attempting his draw-in the forwards with a little pause and step before he passes, which might be useful if it weren't so predictable or if the forwards were actually, you know, in the backline which is where you are meant to be making space.

Phillips will tour and could be an impact sub if an attempt to play rugby fails but if he starts, IMO, Gatland has bottled it

He will be in the 23. Either starting or coming off the bench to offer something different or help close out a tight game

Q. What to do with a problem like Phillips?

A. Simple. Drop him 'cause he is beans, and try and find a pure scrum half (Lloyd Williams) and give him more exposure to test match rugby and let him grow!

It's not going to be a surprise at who the Lions will be up against in Australia, and we know Phillips has been woefully exposed by Genia in the past. Persevering with Phillips (a player who despite my joking, does have some uselful skills) who can't live with the skill set or pace Genia plays at will result in defeat again....

I could see him going as third scrum half on the basis of his defensive and confrontational play alone to be fair. His service of late for Wales has been very poor but one of the Lions biggest tasks in Aus is silencing Genia around the rucks and no-one is better suited to that at SH than Phillips.

That said I'd have Youngs starting without a doubt at the moment for the Lions. For Wales I'm surprised we haven't heard any calls for Peel to be recalled, most seem to want a SH who simply offer great service to his recievers and Peel is up there with the best for that.

king_carlos wrote:I could see him going as third scrum half on the basis of his defensive and confrontational play alone to be fair. His service of late for Wales has been very poor but one of the Lions biggest tasks in Aus is silencing Genia around the rucks and no-one is better suited to that at SH than Phillips.

That said I'd have Youngs starting without a doubt at the moment for the Lions. For Wales I'm surprised we haven't heard any calls for Peel to be recalled, most seem to want a SH who simply offer great service to his recievers and Peel is up there with the best for that.

Despite him being made to look like a baboon in their last 3 encounters in the summer?

He had 3 chances and didn't do it.

Mike Blair had one half a chance and so did Cusiter and they outplayed Genia...

He definitely has his uses but his fault is he just isn't that intelligent. He doesn't read a game as well as lads like Care, Youngs, or Laidlaw.

Gatland's probably going to take three nines on tour. For me (and feel free to let me know if you think this is pure English bias), the first two on the list have to be Youngs and Care. Of the other options (Laidlaw, Murray and Phillips), Phillips inclusion seems like a no-brainer to me! Laidlaw is not without promise, but his kicking and versatility are two huge strings to his bow when playing for Scotland which will be of absolutely no use to the Lions (Sexton/Farrell and/or 1/2p will be in the test XV, so goal-kicking is covered). Murray is - to all intents and purposes - a similar type of player to Phillips, except Phillips brings a far better pedigree and Lions (not to mention GS and WC) experience.

If the choice was between Phillips and a 'pure' distributer, then there would be an argument for selecting the latter as both Youngs and Care offer decent, zippy running threat but can both be a bit 'crabby' in getting the ball away. But with the choices as they are, Phillips has to tour, surely?

Phillips, Youngs and ANother

He should go.

He would be excellent at holding the tackle bags or bringing Ben Youngs' water on to the field during the test match.
( )

Still the same old 'too slow' 'poor delivery' nonsense (although only skimmed through the posts)

As I have stated I am not a Phillips fan, and have been very critical of his performances in the past, particularly anything between the RWC and Ai's just gone (yes I thought he was poor last 6N) but in the 2 games gone he has offered a few things no other 9 can, leadership, experience and true grit! Youngs is the classy option, Laidlaw is a versatile option, Care is a speed demon and Murray has actually been ok, but none of these is experienced, have contributed to a pressure win (Youngs didn't really do much) and none have toured before. Phillips has these aces up his sleeve if nothing else, and therefore will travel.

Right now with regards to talent I'd place him barely in the top 10 in the UK and Ireland, but for effectiveness he's up there with the best, and for experience and leadership he's head and shoulders above anyone else!

To be fair there's not much competition at centre, maybe he could play there? He did it last time

Not much competition at centre? BOD, Roberts, Davies, Tuilagi, with options of North, Bowe, Maitland, Earls, and 12trees. We have lots of options at centre.

Although I have said in the past that Centre would be a way for him to go, and he can play there he has done at various times.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Still the same old 'too slow' 'poor delivery' nonsense (although only skimmed through the posts)

As I have stated I am not a Phillips fan, and have been very critical of his performances in the past, particularly anything between the RWC and Ai's just gone (yes I thought he was poor last 6N) but in the 2 games gone he has offered a few things no other 9 can, leadership, experience and true grit! Youngs is the classy option, Laidlaw is a versatile option, Care is a speed demon and Murray has actually been ok, but none of these is experienced, have contributed to a pressure win (Youngs didn't really do much) and none have toured before. Phillips has these aces up his sleeve if nothing else, and therefore will travel.

Right now with regards to talent I'd place him barely in the top 10 in the UK and Ireland, but for effectiveness he's up there with the best, and for experience and leadership he's head and shoulders above anyone else!

But we'll have other leaders, Sexton or Farrell are much better pressure players/leaders from what I've seen than any Welsh 10 recently, you think that's fair to say? And that reduces the usefulness of a leader at 9, though I think Youngs and Care have the qualities to fulfill that role anyway. If we picked an entire squad full of previous Lions with experience, we'll get annihilated- for one thing how many players do we have with experience of a victorious Lions Tour?

thebluesmancometh wrote:Not much competition at centre? BOD, Roberts, Davies, Tuilagi, with options of North, Bowe, Maitland, Earls, and 12trees. We have lots of options at centre.

Although I have said in the past that Centre would be a way for him to go, and he can play there he has done at various times.

I was flat-out Wumming, sorry

My responce would be leave him at home. But then i am not picking the squad for the Lions Gatland is. He (Gatland) will choose Phillips out of loyalty, more than any thing else.

I think the scrum halfs should be Youngs, Care, Laidlaw, Murry. would be a better choice of Scrum half for the Lions. In My opinion.

I agree leadership shouldn't be the primary selector, but Sexton and Farell aren't leaders or particularly experienced in any which way shape or form. Farell is a child in comparison to the options 4 years ago, and Sexton still can't replicate his Leinster form on the int stage.

If we agree those 2 10's are the front runners at present, then IMHO it makes experience and leadership at 9 even more important than if say Wilkinson or Jones types were at the helm.

I just look at the 1 10 axis as a weak spot for the lions in comparison to other areas, Youngs is still prone to real lapses, Care can be nullified too easily and Laidlaw and Murray would be weak options IMHO. Phillips is secure, he knows Gatland and his preferences, and his ego is such that the more important the game the better he seems to perform.

thebluesmancometh wrote:I agree leadership shouldn't be the primary selector, but Sexton and Farell aren't leaders or particularly experienced in any which way shape or form. Farell is a child in comparison to the options 4 years ago, and Sexton still can't replicate his Leinster form on the int stage.

If we agree those 2 10's are the front runners at present, then IMHO it makes experience and leadership at 9 even more important than if say Wilkinson or Jones types were at the helm.

I just look at the 1 10 axis as a weak spot for the lions in comparison to other areas, Youngs is still prone to real lapses, Care can be nullified too easily and Laidlaw and Murray would be weak options IMHO. Phillips is secure, he knows Gatland and his preferences, and his ego is such that the more important the game the better he seems to perform.

a rather compelling argument. If that is Gatland's basis for picking Phillips, if he does, then it makes some sense. I'd still put him on the bench to add some devil/spine if need be, but I just don't think he is the right starter vs Genia

I simply want my SH to get the ball t the backs quickly. anything else is a bonus but they must be able to do this. Even Philips supporters admit he is slow around the ruck. To me this is a fatal flaw

TJ wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:TJ - can I ask which welsh scrum halves you would take instead? Being serious that is a position we really are short on at the moment.

You have not got a lot for sure. Peel or Knoyle for sure. I really think Philips that poor. He makes the welsh backs half as potent as they might be

Claiming that Knoyle is better just shows you're utterly clueless. And how often do you watch Peel play?

Cheq

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of guys with the ability to make Philips look bad, Genia is one of them, and for me Youngs is probably a touch ahead for the test jersey at present, but for now I would only be looking at options and combinations, then when landed 1 of the 3 will stand out. Thats when it gets interesting IMHO and another reason I'd take Phillips, if nothing else he will enforce that the other SH's will give everything they have to beat him to the test jersey!

These stats obviously need to be taken with a pinch of salt as rugby is a team game and there is only so much influence an individual can have but looking at the respective contenders records against Australia is interesting:

Player Starts Subs Wins
Phillips 8 1 0
Laidlaw 1 0 1
Youngs 2 2 2
Murray 0 1 1

As I say doesn't necessarily say much but for every argument that experience favors Phillips could be argued against with experience of winning being just as (if not more) valuable.

It seems to me that those that are championing Phillips are concentrating on other aspects of his role rather than his scrum half abilities ie his physicality, his leadership etc.

That's all well and good, but he should primarily be judged on the core duties of a scrum half and he's lacking there, certainly behind the other options.

Hmm on those stats it looks like if anyone starts against us besides Phillips will end to be a Lions win!!!

Phillips - the man they all like to hate, the recent scorer of winning trys v England and Ireland both in the 6 nations and RWC - The powerhouse that no other 9 likes to play against - The Lions scrum half on the last tour who ripped through defences. I'm afraid Mike will be on the plane to Aus and lets see how he goes for the rest of the 6 Nations. Iron Mike v little Ben should be interesting in March and may the best man win.

RubyGuby wrote:The powerhouse that no other 9 likes to play against

Genia loves playing against him. He's made him look like a lumbering oaf plenty of times. Doesn't bode well, does it?

RubyGuby wrote:Phillips - the man they all like to hate, the recent scorer of winning trys v England and Ireland both in the 6 nations and RWC - The powerhouse that no other 9 likes to play against - The Lions scrum half on the last tour who ripped through defences. I'm afraid Mike will be on the plane to Aus and lets see how he goes for the rest of the 6 Nations. Iron Mike v little Ben should be interesting in March and may the best man win.

He'll also have to deal with Laidlaw in the Scotland match... Currently I fancy Laidlaw to win that exchange too.

You keep fancying Radge -