Howley says Warburton still in Lions mix

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21433525

Even though he isn't going to pick him in the starting line up for Wales.

Is Howley saying that Wales are a stronger team than the Lions?

Or is he doing so much talking that he's stopped making sense?

Of course he is still in the mix, he's coming back from injury into a winning team so bringing him back onto the bench is the sensible option.

Also there is nothing saying that Lions player have to be playing International rugby, some have tipped Sheridan and Armitage, so if his form is good even after the 6 Nations ends then he will be in the mix.

Maybe Tips, Warbs, Fals, Ryan Jones and Coombsy will all make the Lions squad.

Shingler? Errrm, no.

Well, what else can Howley say? "No, Warbs has become a bad player overnight, his injury spared me a nasty job in Paris, and frankly, he'd be lucky to get a game for Tondu seconds the way he's going at the moment?"

Form is temporary and all that, and if Warburton can rediscover his mislaid mojo, he'd have a pretty good chance, especially in view of the current absence of classic 7s. He needs to get a move on with it, though, because time is not on his side.

In certain positions a country may be particularly strong and as such could provide players who cant make their 1st XV

Wales - 7 - Warburton, Tipuric
Ireland - 2 - Best, Strauss
England - 10 - Farrell, Flood
Scotland...................I'll get back to you on that one

Of course Warbs is in with a shout, but it's a fairly outside bet IMHO, Tipuric is the better player playing better, and Warbs needs not only exposure, but to find some form too! He needs to play club rugby this weekend, and hope that when he gets on the 6N turf things go his way, with options like Tipuric, SOB, Rennie and Robshaw he needs luck and form!

captain carrantuohil wrote:Well, what else can Howley say? ".........

I think, as a trainee with no head coach experience, he should say nothing and keep his head down. Save the media soundbites for when we have a winning streak of more than one game.

It's obviously an amateurish attempt to assuage the conflict between coach and former captain.

This is what happens when a novice is left in charge - he's in danger of, as they say in the beautiful game, 'losing the dressing room'. Senior pros like Byrne, Hook and Warbs, along with other talented players in the squad now know that, barring injuries, they have little or no chance of breaking into the side that scraped past a dismal France and was annihilated by Ireland for 45mins.

Not much of a motivator.

Casartelli wrote:

captain carrantuohil wrote:Well, what else can Howley say? ".........

I think, as a trainee with no head coach experience, he should say nothing and keep his head down. Save the media soundbites for when we have a winning streak of more than one game.

It's obviously an amateurish attempt to assuage the conflict between coach and former captain.

This is what happens when a novice is left in charge - he's in danger of, as they say in the beautiful game, 'losing the dressing room'. Senior pros like Byrne, Hook and Warbs, along with other talented players in the squad now know that, barring injuries, they have little or no chance of breaking into the side that scraped past a dismal France and was annihilated by Ireland for 45mins.

Not much of a motivator.

As a caretaker coach he will be interviewed at press conferences and he will have to answer questions asked unless try are unacceptable.

A question only becomes a leading question when a journalist interprets a response to be so. There is not really a story here though is there...?

Warburton needs a kick up the backside, he can be a far more influential player than he has been if late an this might well be what he needs to get his game back on track.

Howley and the other coaches who work with him everyday know that better than anyone I am sure.

I feel sorry for Howley why are the WRU allowing him to be put infront of the media?

He just making it harder for himself.

VictorU3 wrote:I feel sorry for Howley why are the WRU allowing him to be put infront of the media?

He just making it harder for himself.

This is the point. They have Edwards available to discuss tactics etc and Mark Jones if they need to wheel someone out to talk generic nonsense.

Howley should be kept behind the scenes where he can spend his time working on important things. Teaching Mike Phillips to box kick, for example.

Warbs is as much in the mix as is the chunkier Armitage.Both good players but neither in the national side.

Casartelli wrote:They have Edwards available to discuss tactics etc and Mark Jones if they need to wheel someone out to talk generic nonsense going forward.

Fixed that for you.

Casartelli wrote:

VictorU3 wrote:I feel sorry for Howley why are the WRU allowing him to be put infront of the media?

He just making it harder for himself.

This is the point. They have Edwards available to discuss tactics etc and Mark Jones if they need to wheel someone out to talk generic nonsense.

Howley should be kept behind the scenes where he can spend his time working on important things. Teaching Mike Phillips to box kick, for example.

I would rather Jenkins worked on kicking, it was never the skill Howley was picked for.

Actually, to be fair to Howley, he was an excellent exponent of the box kick.

I'm certain that Jenkins never even attempted one.

Casartelli wrote:Actually, to be fair to Howley, he was an excellent exponent of the box kick.

I'm certain that Jenkins never even attempted one.

You must be thinking of Robert Jones not Robert Howley. Howley was not a great kicker! Better than Phillips but that is hardly a comparison. I am sure Rob McBride or Dan Baugh could teach MP about box kicks..!

We're getting off topic here Maes, but notwithstanding the fact that Howley is still at the arse-end of the learning curve as a coach, he was, credit where it's due, an excellent kicker of a rugby ball. Even took the place kicks for Bridgend one season with a degree of success.

Box kicking is, at best, an effective way to give the opposition the ball, but Howley was good at them. As good as Rob Jones.

Casartelli wrote:We're getting off topic here Maes, but notwithstanding the fact that Howley is still at the arse-end of the learning curve as a coach, he was, credit where it's due, an excellent kicker of a rugby ball. Even took the place kicks for Bridgend one season with a degree of success.

Box kicking is, at best, an effective way to give the opposition the ball, but Howley was good at them. As good as Rob Jones.

Ill agree with you that Howley was as good as Mike Phillips of giving the opposition the ball with box kicks but he was never as good as Rob Jones at pressuring the opposition with kicks.

I guess Rob Jones was a bit before your time. But he was probably the most skilled technician Wales have ever selected at Nine. He lacked the pace and the strength of lads like Edwards or Howley but as a kicker and passer there has been few even close.

Both Robs were very fine scrum halves.

maestegmafia wrote:

Casartelli wrote:We're getting off topic here Maes, but notwithstanding the fact that Howley is still at the arse-end of the learning curve as a coach, he was, credit where it's due, an excellent kicker of a rugby ball. Even took the place kicks for Bridgend one season with a degree of success.

Box kicking is, at best, an effective way to give the opposition the ball, but Howley was good at them. As good as Rob Jones.

Ill agree with you that Howley was as good as Mike Phillips of giving the opposition the ball with box kicks but he was never as good as Rob Jones at pressuring the opposition with kicks.

I guess Rob Jones was a bit before your time. But he was probably the most skilled technician Wales have ever selected at Nine. He lacked the pace and the strength of lads like Edwards or Howley but as a kicker and passer there has been few even close.

I'm just commenting on Howley's and Rob Jones' box kicks, from the perspective of being one of the poor sods that was stood there waiting for the ball to come down on many, many occasions.

They went to similar height and were similarly accurate. Which is about all you can judge a box kick on.

Still a dismal tactic though.

Agree totally with Maesteg about Robert Jones. I think that I've only ever seen two games in whch a scrum-half has basically won the match for his team off his own bat. One was the immortal Dave Loveridge virtuoso display at windy Wellington against the 83 Lions, which finished 9-0 to the All Blacks, a score that would have been reversed if Loveridge had been wearing red that day.

The other was Robert Jones' absolute masterclass of bad weather scrum-half play when Wales did England in Brisbane in the 87 RWC quarter-final. As fine a display of killing a side with a thousand cuts as I've ever seen and Jones was literally the only player to rise above the mediocrity of that game. Miles above it, actually. He looked to be playing a game with which everyone else was only dimly familiar. Great, great player, wonderful passer and tactician and not sufficiently respected for his ability these days.

On the subject of box kicks:

https://www.606v2.com/t40652-possession-or-territory#1858019

This has become a box kicking thread!

It has been the crux of much of our under performance.

Too many games where kicking from Wales straight to the opposition has been the reason we lost the match.

That said, maybe Warburton is one of the few who can't be condemned. Ryan Jones on the other hand often seems to be one of our best kickers from hand, and Tips has scored some lovely tries through his footballing skills.

I still think we are some way from knowing whether SW or JT will be Wales main 7 in future. Tuperic's running and foraging game works well for the O's where their pack usualy dominates or at the worst has parity with the opposition, they give plenty of go forward ball for him to run onto and smash into tackles and rucks giving him good access to the ball. How often does the Welsh pack dominate? SW has proved that he can play a major role in a pack under stress we have yet to see if JT can do that.

Even the comparison of them over the last two games has mainly been distorted by the Western Mail donkeys and armchair pundits yelling to try and prove they were right while the facts don't justify it. In the Irish match SW was second top tackler behind Toby and also beat an opponent and made an offload. In the French Match JT was joint 4th top tackler with Toby and behind Ryan, Coombes and Evans, he only ran for 2 metres and didn't beat any defenders or make any offloads. So, its still far from clear who will be the best for Wales and we should just be glad we have both of them.

What I do think is clearer though is that SW probably shouldn't be the Welsh captain, I am sure he is very popular with the players but he doesn't have that extra enthusiasm that motivates those around him, someone needed to do that in the first half against Ireland.... Ryan is the obvious alternative at the moment, he realy is a captain but in the longer term its hard to see an obvious captain in Wales' current ranks.

Newsilure wrote:I still think we are some way from knowing whether SW or JT will be Wales main 7 in future. Tuperic's running and foraging game works well for the O's where their pack usualy dominates or at the worst has parity with the opposition, they give plenty of go forward ball for him to run onto and smash into tackles and rucks giving him good access to the ball. How often does the Welsh pack dominate? SW has proved that he can play a major role in a pack under stress we have yet to see if JT can do that.

Even the comparison of them over the last two games has mainly been distorted by the Western Mail donkeys and armchair pundits yelling to try and prove they were right while the facts don't justify it. In the Irish match SW was second top tackler behind Toby and also beat an opponent and made an offload. In the French Match JT was joint 4th top tackler with Toby and behind Ryan, Coombes and Evans, he only ran for 2 metres and didn't beat any defenders or make any offloads. So, its still far from clear who will be the best for Wales and we should just be glad we have both of them.

What I do think is clearer though is that SW probably shouldn't be the Welsh captain, I am sure he is very popular with the players but he doesn't have that extra enthusiasm that motivates those around him, someone needed to do that in the first half against Ireland.... Ryan is the obvious alternative at the moment, he realy is a captain but in the longer term its hard to see an obvious captain in Wales' current ranks.

Blimey. An unexpectedly astute post, out of nowhere.

Newsilure wrote:Even the comparison of them over the last two games has mainly been distorted by the Western Mail donkeys and armchair pundits yelling to try and prove they were right while the facts don't justify it. In the Irish match SW was second top tackler behind Toby and also beat an opponent and made an offload. In the French Match JT was joint 4th top tackler with Toby and behind Ryan, Coombes and Evans, he only ran for 2 metres and didn't beat any defenders or make any offloads. So, its still far from clear who will be the best for Wales and we should just be glad we have both of them.

Never mind Western Mail journalists and armchair pundits, I'm not sure how wise it is to compare a player's statistics from one game with another player's stats from a different game, especially when the one was a home game and the other an away game.

Casartelli wrote:Maybe Tips, Warbs, Fals, Ryan Jones and Coombsy will all make the Lions squad.

Shingler? Errrm, no.

Weren't people really raving about how good Shingler was after the last 6Ns etc. One bad game, and lets face it everyone was bad in that first half, and suddenly he is a bad player who should be kept away at all costs.

A good point Luckless, but you didn't need to analyse the stats to know that Tipuric was quiet against France, whereas he was very prominent against Ireland when the game opened up. The French match just wasn't his kind of game.

I think Warburton can feel aggrieved here. As the only Welsh forward (in Lydiate's absence) who is capable of knocking opponents backwards in contact, we are taking a big chance leaving him on the bench in any game.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Casartelli wrote:Maybe Tips, Warbs, Fals, Ryan Jones and Coombsy will all make the Lions squad.

Shingler? Errrm, no.

Weren't people really raving about how good Shingler was after the last 6Ns etc. One bad game, and lets face it everyone was bad in that first half, and suddenly he is a bad player who should be kept away at all costs.

Maybe it was a bit harsh on Shings. But I think he'd be as surprised as anyone if Gats gave him the Lions call up. Wales have a plethora of lightweight flyers in the pack. We need some beef!

Is it too late for Ben Morgan to change his mind again?

Casartelli wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Casartelli wrote:Maybe Tips, Warbs, Fals, Ryan Jones and Coombsy will all make the Lions squad.

Shingler? Errrm, no.

Weren't people really raving about how good Shingler was after the last 6Ns etc. One bad game, and lets face it everyone was bad in that first half, and suddenly he is a bad player who should be kept away at all costs.

Maybe it was a bit harsh on Shings. But I think he'd be as surprised as anyone if Gats gave him the Lions call up. Wales have a plethora of lightweight flyers in the pack. We need some beef!

Is it too late for Ben Morgan to change his mind again?

Shingler struggled against ireland, he is recently returned from injury and was playing well previously... He's shown he can do it, just needs a full recovery.

Shingler's best game was at 7 last year against Scotland with his pace and line out optuion, I think he is a bit lightweight at 6 compared with the destructive Lydiate/Jones, he may need building up for 6 and/or second row. The idea of playing Warburton and Tipuric in the back row showed up with BOD try for Ireland i.e., nobody stopping him from scoring.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:[quote="Never mind Western Mail journalists and armchair pundits, I'm not sure how wise it is to compare a player's statistics from one game with another player's stats from a different game, especially when the one was a home game and the other an away game.

Fair enough Luckless, your right comparing stats from different matches isn't a very accurate thing to do, but I was just trying to point out that so far nothing conclusive has happened to show which of them is the best fit for the Welsh 7 job....... I look forward to them both playing brilliantly for Wales to try and make the jersey theirs.

Very true, Newsilure. When they're on song, they're both fine opensides. Tipuric is the better footballer of the two I'd say, but it's great that we have two qualiy options there.

I guess Tipuric is more in the Martyn Williams mould where as Warburton is more the 6.5 we here of these days but when both on form n fully fit etc its a great position to be and it gives the coach the nice sort of headaches.

As for Howley not talking to the media well he's interim (head) coach at the moment so he has a duty and a responsibility to interact with the media.

I don't think Warburton has been playing that badly, just the levels he set just over a year ago where world class. It would be great to see him get back to that standard soon.

Maybe a week on the bench will be the kick he needs.

Good to see no one is above the cut.

Gutted for Warburton - sounds like the manager with "the full support of the chairman". In other words he is history...

nobbled wrote:Gutted for Warburton - sounds like the manager with "the full support of the chairman". In other words he is history...

He's 24 and has already been accoladed as one of the best opensides in the game. He may not be at his best but no one would right him off returning to form.

maestegmafia wrote:

nobbled wrote:Gutted for Warburton - sounds like the manager with "the full support of the chairman". In other words he is history...

He's 24 and has already been accoladed as one of the best opensides in the game. He may not be at his best but no one would right him off returning to form.

Agreed - but a useful scapegoat if you were a coach with a GS winning team that strung 8 defeats together.