England's Possible Second Row Crisis

Joe Launchbury, Geoff Parling and Courtney Lawes all sustained injuries during the Itlay game. It is rumoured that Lawes will train today but Parling and Launchbury certainly won't with both possibly missing the Wales game altogether.

With only these three as locks in the EPS it could be looking like squeaky bum time for us in the Second Row department. Who would people like to see called up and can they perform in one of the most hyped international matches for years?

My picks would be: 4. L Deacon 5. C Lawes 19. G Kitchener - we're going to need an experienced line-out organiser and Deacon is that man. He performed well for England in the 2011 6N and RWC. He also adds some weight to the SR and is an excellent scrummaging lock something we're lacking at present. Kitchener also runs a good line-out for Tigers and he offers much more than Robson around the park. If I see Botha in an England shirt again it'll be too soon.

I forgot to add George Kruis as an option but I don't really think he's ready just yet. A good chap to take to Argentina though i'd say.

Options
Deacon - Probably will be brought up.
Slater - Put some top class performances in...so i think he can handle it
Kitchener - Looking better and better
Kruis - Possibly behind Slater and Kitchener in his development at this stage

and
Matt Garvey??

The next best from th Saxons will get promotion if sl is true to his own philosophy.

I thought I read somewhere that they would all be fit for the Wales game.
Owen Farrell too - the only exeption being Ben Morgan, who still isnt running on grass yet.

Isnt Palmer in the Saxons too?
Him and Mo Botha would all be experienced call ups.

The op has made right picks,could you imagine botha and robson .

Three locks injured in one match...bloomin heck, its a good thing we have quality locks coming out of our derriere's, my preference...

Deacon
Kitchener
Palmer
Botha
Attwood
Slater
Kruis
Garvey
Robson
Shaw
Kennedy

Is Palmer not injured? Think Botha was found out at the very top level and would personally go for Deacon as a decent stop gap who won't let anyone down (always felt he got unfair stick for not being dynamic enough when he played before - does all the boring stuff to allow others to do the glory eye-catching stuff). Been unfortunate with injuries and too old now but would do in a crisis if it comes to it. Most reports are saying that all 3 EPS locks will be fit though, unless SL is trying some smoke and mirrors stuff.

Personally thought we should have had 4 locks in the original EPS anyway, plus a third hooker but that's for another thread.

I have seen the reports that Parling and Lawes will be fit but I don't believe a lot of the PR that comes out of most camps particularly just before a major Test. Launchbury is supposed to be the real doubt having hyper-extended his elbow and Parling took a shoulder knock.

The issue is the line-out situation. Lancs will want to put Croft straight in for the line-out and that means the back-row will be lightweight.

Let's compare that with a back 5 for Wales of 4. A-Wyn Jones 5. I Evans 6. A Coombs 7. S Warburton 8. T Faletau. I can't see Tipuric being selected with Warburton and not considering Coombs played so well in the SR. Wales will want to dominate in the forwards and Coombs is the right choice for that.

Deacon is our only option to add weight to the pack and a line-out caller. Kitchener adds good weight and some excellent park skills.

Crfot coming in seems likely...

But Wood is a fine lineout man and in my opinion a FAR better alround 6 than Croft...move him back to 6 and bring on Vunipola at 8 to just rampage and cause as much havoc as possible.

Kitchener to repalce Parling if he and Lawes are injured...and probably Deacon to replace launchbury.

Chjw131 wrote:Kitchener adds good weight and some excellent park skills.

Would be an interesting game to make your debut in, a GS decider in Cardiff

I do agree though, Deacon to start with Kitchener on the bench if 2 out of 3 don't make it. I would only want Deacon to start though if he is called up, think he is of no real benefit off the bench if just Launchberry doesn't recover. Would even rather keep Lawes as a replacement and have Deacon start if it comes to that.

B91212 wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:Kitchener adds good weight and some excellent park skills.

Would be an interesting game to make your debut in, a GS decider in Cardiff

I do agree though, Deacon to start with Kitchener on the bench if 2 out of 3 don't make it. I would only want Deacon to start though if he is called up, think he is of no real benefit off the bench if just Launchberry doesn't recover. Would even rather keep Lawes as a replacement and have Deacon start if it comes to that.

Yep spot on I would say. Kitchener making a debut in this match would be highly undesirable but Palmer has been out for the past few months and Botha....just no. Kruis is the only other option in the Saxons and he's even greener than Kitchener who has at least played lots of Saxons matches and won MOTM in Ireland last month.

Attwood has played pretty well for Bath recently but Garvey is the perennially overlooked one. It's still to early for the likes of Charlie Matthews and Tom Savage I feel.

Steve Borthwick hasn't retired from international rugby has he?

Still the best lineout operator in England and one of the best 2nd rows in England.

Come come Beshocked, I will happily concede that Steve Borthwick is the best line-out operator in the Jeff and perhaps even the whole of European club competitions but he does not have the added accoutrements required to play SR at top international level.

He's a thoroughly decent chap by all accounts but the likes of Kitchener, Kruis and Deacon are better all round second rows. What really killed Borthwick's international career for me was his continual acceptance and excusal of dreadful team performances.

True chjw131 Borthwick will not be forgiven for his awful post match interviews. I certainly don't think Borthwick will be brought back but he's a bit more than just a good lineout man.

He makes a very high amount of tackles. He also does the nitty gritty. He's not a particularly good ball carrier though and that's where most of the criticism comes from.

Like we've been talking about it's about balance. Pair Borthwick with the right balance in the pack and he's very effective.

The problem is that England haven't got a lineout operator as good as him.

Parling has done well in other aspects but so far the lineout has been passable at best.

Borthwick is definitely the number one 2nd row at Saracens with Botha and Kruis fighting for that 2nd spot.

Would I pick Borthwick? Probably not but I would certainly consider it.

beshocked wrote:True chjw131 Borthwick will not be forgiven for his awful post match interviews. I certainly don't think Borthwick will be brought back but he's a bit more than just a good lineout man.

He makes a very high amount of tackles. He also does the nitty gritty. He's not a particularly good ball carrier though and that's where most of the criticism comes from.

Like we've been talking about it's about balance. Pair Borthwick with the right balance in the pack and he's very effective.

The problem is that England haven't got a lineout operator as good as him.

Parling has done well in other aspects but so far the lineout has been passable at best.

Borthwick is definitely the number one 2nd row at Saracens with Botha and Kruis fighting for that 2nd spot.

Would I pick Borthwick? Probably not but I would certainly consider it.

I agree Beshocked and indeed had Borthwick not been Captain in those matches I think his career may have lasted a bit longer. It's sad to say but I think that's the reality.

I'm aware of his high tackling rate and the respect he commands amongst a team but it's not just his carrying which is lacking. He has zero pace, unlike someone like Marco Wentzel and doesn't have the hands and vision of someone like Kitchener.

He's a superb line-out operator of the old school era and if I were running an AP team built around the foundations of one like Saracens he'd be the first name on the team sheet.

Deacon would be my first call up in this particular crisis though.