Lions LH Crisis

With the injury to Healy and now GJ out does this mean we're down to Mako as starting LH for the Tests? Glad to see Corbs and Grant get their chance but can they shake the jet-lag and get up to speed in time?!

I have no worries about Grant or Corbs...in all honestly Grant should have been in the original selection and Corbs would have been very close aswell.

My issue was Vunipola who has probably been one of the surprises of the tour so far with some very impressive performances.

Those three will do just fine...i have no worries. Maybe Grant and Corbs can teach Vunipola to scrummage...then England will have a monster on our hands....

Vunipola's work in the loose has carried on from some superb performances for Sarries. It's his scrummaging which concerns me. Australia won't be that weak if both the Bens are playing. With Timani out that might help us but...

I would rather see Corbs start as his all round game is better. They just don't have much time.

Vunipolo has had a couple of cameos against wafer thin opposition. People need to get some perspective here as this guy was completely ineffective in Cardiff when he came on. He does have a lot of potential but he also has the ability to get exposed in facets of his game. People are starting to eulogise about this guy which is a bit naive for me. Grant would be a far more solid and reliable option for the Lions IMO

What concerns me is that Vunipola will now have played 220 minutes of rugby in a week.

Hopefully Gethin will recover, but there must be concerns if Grant has been called up :/

I don't think it Is a crisis though, you still have more than 2 weeks before the first test.

Besides you aren't facing SA or NZ in the scrums.

Biltong wrote:I don't think it Is a crisis though, you still have more than 2 weeks before the first test.

Besides you aren't facing SA or NZ in the scrums.

I agree Biltong but it's not like the Ozzies got marmalised in the RC last year. They're not top drawer but the Lions still need a strong scrummaging unit. Vunipola did do ok with Adam Jones in the Barbarians game but i'd rather not see him start.

RubyGuby wrote:Vunipolo has had a couple of cameos against wafer thin opposition. People need to get some perspective here as this guy was completely ineffective in Cardiff when he came on. He does have a lot of potential but he also has the ability to get exposed in facets of his game. People are starting to eulogise about this guy which is a bit naive for me. Grant would be a far more solid and reliable option for the Lions IMO

With all due respect he has played more than one game of international rugby - and his rate of improvement over the year has been phenomenal (his AI form was nothing to write home about for example). So far he has exceeded expectations on tour

Chjw131 wrote:

Biltong wrote:I don't think it Is a crisis though, you still have more than 2 weeks before the first test.

Besides you aren't facing SA or NZ in the scrums.

I agree Biltong but it's not like the Ozzies got marmalised in the RC last year. They're not top drawer but the Lions still need a strong scrummaging unit. Vunipola did do ok with Adam Jones in the Barbarians game but i'd rather not see him start.

Agreed, but I don't see a problem, Whomever Deans selects at tight head are decent whether it is Palmer, Slipper or Alexander, but not scary.

Biltong wrote:I don't think it Is a crisis though, you still have more than 2 weeks before the first test.

Besides you aren't facing SA or NZ in the scrums.

Harsh, but true.

I'd prefer us to have a better set piece player (which both Corbs and Grant are) than Mako starting the first test, but can see him being an absolute monster coming on at about 60 minutes.

Anyway, the rate we are going through LH props, I think it'll be Sheridan starting with Paul James on the bench, with Marler being called in for the 2nd test...

Ruby

I have a lot of perspective...have no fear, im not eulogising about anyone.

As i said above i hope Corbs and Grant can teach Mako to scrummage..im very aware that is his weakness...a bad one for a prop - though Sarries are working massively on it judging by his improvement through the year.

However on the plus side...you obviously missed his barnstorming second half of the season where pretty much every club performance was simply outstanding.

Grant should have been in the squad first...everyone knows that..but give a little praise where its due... dont just call people deluded or such for doing so.

No of course there is no crisis - we have Matt Stevens !!! able to step in and cover both sides of the scrum, probably at the same time.

dummy_half wrote:

Anyway, the rate we are going through LH props, I think it'll be Sheridan starting with Paul James on the bench, with Marler being called in for the 2nd test...

2 props lost in 2 games

Ryan Bevington will be getting itchy feet at this rate

Luckily loosehead is an area of strength in the UK. Luckily we still have players the standard of James, Marler and Bevington not even called upon.

Interesting that scrum coach Graham Rowntree said earlier in the year that Joe Marler was something special... but only according to him now the 3rd best loosehead in England.

fa0019 wrote:Interesting that scrum coach Graham Rowntree said earlier in the year that Joe Marler was something special... but only according to him now the 3rd best loosehead in England.

I haven't been impressed when I have seen Marler play.

Corbs is a good scrummaging loosehead and Vunipola has been the find of the tour so far - so I am not surprised Marler is 3rd choice.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ruby

I have a lot of perspective...have no fear, im not eulogising about anyone.

As i said above i hope Corbs and Grant can teach Mako to scrummage..im very aware that is his weakness...a bad one for a prop - though Sarries are working massively on it judging by his improvement through the year.

However on the plus side...you obviously missed his barnstorming second half of the season where pretty much every club performance was simply outstanding.

Grant should have been in the squad first...everyone knows that..but give a little praise where its due... dont just call people deluded or such for doing so.

Nobodys calling anyone deluded Geordie; I just get the impression that everyone is expecting a lot from this young welsh lad, he's had a few barnstorming runs against poor opposition and a decent end of season in a powerful team at Sarries He remains untried at the highest level and I sense people are getting carried away, I refer to that as being naive and not deluded

wales606 wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Interesting that scrum coach Graham Rowntree said earlier in the year that Joe Marler was something special... but only according to him now the 3rd best loosehead in England.

I haven't been impressed when I have seen Marler play.

Corbs is a good scrummaging loosehead and Vunipola has been the find of the tour so far - so I am not surprised Marler is 3rd choice.

I agree... nothing I've seen from him has ever even established potential.

Someone was right when they said loosehead was an area of strength... didn't Tim Payne get called up last time!

This time around James, Grant, Corbisiero & Sheridan were notable initial absentees.

so now im naive...about the young Welsh lad eh?

Aye canny

GeordieFalcon wrote: so now im naive...about the young Welsh lad eh?

Aye canny

As much as I hate to admitt it, Vunipola hasn't surprised me at all, I said he was a great 'wildcard' option after the main 2 before, and I remain in the same thought.

He has looked good in wide channells against poor opposition recently, lets not pretend he is the complete package because of his mobility, we already knew he was mobile, it was the rest of his game that worried us, and he hasn't been tested in the scrum at all yet.

I hope we don't all fall into the 'Mako to start' category just because of his performances against the Baa's and then near semi professional players, he's got a lot to prove before test 1!

Strenge though we all thought LH was our strongest position with 2 world class options and a top wildcard in Mako/Grant/Corbs/James/Sheridan and now we have 3 wildcards only, very worrying!

Blueman

I would actually say that we are in about the same position as before

We have lost Healy, which is a great shame, Jenkins was always a risk with the amount of game time and we have the wildcard

If you swap Grant for Healy (A slight drop I know, but not a huge amount), Corbs for Jenkins (both good players and coming back from injury) and the Wild card that is Vino

Not really any change

Healy the biggest loss, I don't see much of a difference in quality between the other options to be honest, including Sheridan and James but I'd back any of them to do fine against the Wallabies, especially as part of what should be a strong pack elsewhere. Not too worried.

Riskysports wrote:Blueman

I would actually say that we are in about the same position as before

We have lost Healy, which is a great shame, Jenkins was always a risk with the amount of game time and we have the wildcard

If you swap Grant for Healy (A slight drop I know, but not a huge amount), Corbs for Jenkins (both good players and coming back from injury) and the Wild card that is Vino

Not really any change

Losing Healy is a massive change on it's own, he was head and shoulders above anything else, and was probably one of the worlds best LH operators. But being staisfied with Jenkins, he is mr dependable, and as long as he had gametime would be up to speed and the usual top class all rounder he always is...

Now we have a marauder who struggles in the set peice who has shone in 2 laughable games, Corbs who is a scrummaging machine but has only played4/5 games all year, and a very inexperienced Grant who hasn't had a crack at SH opposition yet (am I right?)

We are considerably worse off than we were a week ago

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Now we have a marauder who struggles in the set peice who has shone in 2 laughable games, Corbs who is a scrummaging machine but has only played4/5 games all year, and a very inexperienced Grant who hasn't had a crack at SH opposition yet (am I right?)

We are considerably worse off than we were a week ago

He is 27 and has been a starter for Glasgow for the past three seasons. He played in all of Scotland's tour matches in the SH last season - Inexperienced in terms of international caps, but no more so than Vunipola. He is not a flashy player (although he did score some very god tries last season), but works very hard, is mobile and won't let anybody down. Interestingly, he is a former member of the Armed Forces.

EST wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Now we have a marauder who struggles in the set peice who has shone in 2 laughable games, Corbs who is a scrummaging machine but has only played4/5 games all year, and a very inexperienced Grant who hasn't had a crack at SH opposition yet (am I right?)

We are considerably worse off than we were a week ago

He is 27 and has been a starter for Glasgow for the past three seasons. He played in all of Scotland's tour matches in the SH last season - Inexperienced in terms of international caps, but no more so than Vunipola. He is not a flashy player (although he did score some very god tries last season), but works very hard, is mobile and won't let anybody down. Interestingly, he is a former member of the Armed Forces.

I wasn't slating him mate, I like the guy, but I don't want to have to rely on him come test 1, he is very inexperienced at test level, and as you say (i'll take your word for it) he has played one tour against SH opposition, similarly Vunipola is very inexperienced also.

I know you weren't slating him, you asked a question, so I answered.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Riskysports wrote:Blueman

I would actually say that we are in about the same position as before

We have lost Healy, which is a great shame, Jenkins was always a risk with the amount of game time and we have the wildcard

If you swap Grant for Healy (A slight drop I know, but not a huge amount), Corbs for Jenkins (both good players and coming back from injury) and the Wild card that is Vino

Not really any change

Losing Healy is a massive change on it's own, he was head and shoulders above anything else, and was probably one of the worlds best LH operators. But being staisfied with Jenkins, he is mr dependable, and as long as he had gametime would be up to speed and the usual top class all rounder he always is...

Now we have a marauder who struggles in the set peice who has shone in 2 laughable games, Corbs who is a scrummaging machine but has only played4/5 games all year, and a very inexperienced Grant who hasn't had a crack at SH opposition yet (am I right?)

We are considerably worse marginally worse off than we were a week ago

Fixed that for you. Grant was unlucky to miss out on the initial selection. Corbisiero, had he been fit all season would have been there or thereabouts as well. The reality is that in terms of ability, there is actually very little between Healy, Jenkins, Grant and Corbisiero. They all have differnet strengths and weaknesses, but not one of them is head and shoulders above the others. The reason we are slight worse off is that in terms of form, healy was ahead of the pack. Corbs and Grant will do just fine.

I can understand why people are a tad concerned, particularly those who haven't really seen Grant play beyond the 6 Nations.

Healy was the front runner closely followed by Jenkins, and we've lost one and the other is a doubt. Still, I'd have no concerns about weakness were either Corbisiero, Vunipola or Grant to start the test. I'd take them all over any of the Aussie props as scrummagers.

The Lions' weakness for me is still the backs. Will we have the footballing ability to break down the Aussie defence and capitalise on chances at the highest level? We'll be physical enough, and through brute force we'll create some chances. But will the likes of Davies, Roberts, Hogg et al be able to find that killer pass against the Aussie defence, with less time and more pressure. The pack doesn't bother me one bit. I do worry about the ball skills of some of our backs though.

Healy was a country mile above the rest in what he offered, his experience and his form. Jenkins at least had quality and experience.

I am not talking just starting spot, I am talking options off the bench too, any combination of the 3 in contention now are weaker than Healy with Jenkins off the bench, much weaker.

Can't agree bluesman. Healy is a good player, but he is not world class. Of the four of them, Jenkins was world class and arguably the best loosehead in the world a few years back, but he's short of that now.

I don't see that the Lions are weakened considerably at all. Corbisiero or Grant to start, both of whom are solid scrummagers and can help us get the upper hand in the set piece, with Mako of the bench late on as an impact player.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I can understand why people are a tad concerned, particularly those who haven't really seen Grant play beyond the 6 Nations.

Healy was the front runner closely followed by Jenkins, and we've lost one and the other is a doubt. Still, I'd have no concerns about weakness were either Corbisiero, Vunipola or Grant to start the test. I'd take them all over any of the Aussie props as scrummagers.

The Lions' weakness for me is still the backs. Will we have the footballing ability to break down the Aussie defence and capitalise on chances at the highest level? We'll be physical enough, and through brute force we'll create some chances. But will the likes of Davies, Roberts, Hogg et al be able to find that killer pass against the Aussie defence, with less time and more pressure. The pack doesn't bother me one bit. I do worry about the ball skills of some of our backs though.

Agree entirely - Bluesman, don't forget that in last years AIs Grant faced off against the All Blacks, Springboks and Tonga and was an important part of Scotland's back to back wins over the Wallabies. He also regularly packs down against guys like John Afoa and Adam Jones (whom he had well in hand in the last Glasgow-Os game). I have no fears for him - he is the strongest loosehead scrummager the Lions now offer, even if he doesn't quite match Healy in the loose. He'll still wreck any current Aussie tighthead.

funnyExiledScot wrote: The pack doesn't bother me one bit. I do worry about the ball skills of some of our backs though.

1,000,000% agree with this. I said it on the podcast and will repeat it here. We will not beat them through brute force, we need some skill in the backs, which is the reason why I would have taken Matt Scott, as more of a footballing option in the centres, where we are going to have a crash ball 12 whoever plays there.

I can't agree with much of the above, Corbisiero is one of the most destructive LH scrummagers Ive seen, and he rivals the best in the NH (James) Grant does in no way compare to that. Then in the loose Healy is one of the most influencial carriers in the tight, it's unheard of to make his kind of yardage in the tight! Jenkins is the best ball player and breakdown man in the NH, Grant doesn't do what any of those players can, he is however well rounded and solid.

I'm not saying I wouldn't trust him, but right now he is 4/5th down the pecking order and has a crack at a test jersey, which is worrying.

Also what kind of rubbish is 'the pack doesn't bother me one bit' about? The SH packs are what undoes the NH teams every single time, yes the Aus scrum isn't the best, but when you have loose and tight props making try scoring passes or finishing tries themselves it makes up for it, not to mention the offloads and work at the contact area.

Our backline is very destructive, given the platform they will score tries against Aus over and over, but the platform is the problem.

People talk about the lions backs being bit and brutal, the terms bosh and force are used constantly but thats such a niaive view IMO, the lions use the weapons the BEST players have at their disposal, and a lot of our BEST backs are brutal, to leave them out for a flairman is just plain crazy! Some of this physicality is the reason many teams have had many wins (see Wales v England, see England v NZ, even Scotland v Aus)

Every winning team has the same thing in common, it wins the collisions, gets go forward ball and scores it's points when offered, and thats the backline who has been best at this for over 2 years.

Lets take the backline by the man...

Sexton - NH best 10 by a country mile, and despite the GAA pale unsportsmanlike look to him is a tremendous athlete and ball player.

Phillips - Constantly the leading 9 in the 6N for years, may not be the classiest but he offers so much more than most 9's, even the likes of Parra, Yachvilli etc who show glimmers of genius can't influence games like him.

Roberts - The go to man, the get out of jail, the guarentee of getting over the gameline, he is in essence Wales and lions most valuable player going forward and defencively.

BOD - Nothing needed to say

North - Takes contact at times, and gets impatient, but his workrate is up there with anything the world has to offer, will happily hit the tight channells, never loses the ball in contact and always scares opposing wingers.

Cuthbert - Born finisher, similar to Folau as in they are both devestating strike runners, both change direction and defy physics by doing so, and both score tries.

Bowe - Very smart player, doesn't have the raw physicality of North, or the pace of Cuthbert but is constantly thinking, and never has a problem beating a man.

Hogg + 1/2p - both former 10's, both can distribute nicely, both solid defencively and both like to run in broken play.

Now with regards to another footballer, why put one in? Who would you drop? and what exactly is the point?

Lets talk Scott and 12trees...

Both nice footballers, both can distribute, and put others into space, but what can either offer that BOD doesn't? Does either stand a chance of displacing BOD in the test team? Does either of their skills not transfer to Davies? Whcih are as experienced or proven as Davies? Which can score tries like Davies or BOD?

It would be nice to have a Conrad Smith, but there isn't one, we have BOD as a ball player, following that Davies is as capable as 12trees or Scott, is more experienced, in better form, defencively better, is more of a physical presence and is a try threat!

Our backline can defend and score tries against anyone, it's our pack that is going to have to cope with a far more skillfull oppposing 8, and if they provide a platform of 50/50 our backline will win the games.

Vunipola will get his toughest test tomorrow and lets hope he continues his fine form so far.

Paul James must be feeling a bit miffed but lets hope Corbs and Grant (if needed) will do the business.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Vunipola will get his toughest test tomorrow and lets hope he continues his fine form so far.

Paul James must be feeling a bit miffed but lets hope Corbs and Grant (if needed) will do the business.

Is Vunipolas form 'fine' though bed? Or is his mobility in very loose games where the opposition has been non existant the reason averyone is raving?

After all the scrum has been creaking. Tomorrow will be a little unfair on him though, Youngs isn't much of a scrummager and Stevens well, the less said the better, I'll be watching Vunipolas performance in the scrum and tight very closely.

Blues,

Fair one but he has shown up well in the loose I guess we will have to wait and see, agree that he might not get the best support alongside him.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Blues,

Fair one but he has shown up well in the loose I guess we will have to wait and see, agree that he might not get the best support alongside him.

Don't get me wrong he has carried very well, but I was expecting that. What I wasn't sure about was his ability to scrummage at the top level, run the set plays, and his stamina to last in Gatlands gameplan. So far he hasn't been tested at either, tomorrow he will but he'll also have make up for some glaring weaknesses too, and some on here who are lauding him as test starter now will turn on him in an instant if he the scrum falls apart tomorrow.

blues,

Yeah we are all fickle look at the stick Farrell got and you're right I am sure many will slate Mako if the scrim struggles rather than look at the big picture who was alongside him

bedfordwelsh wrote:blues,

Yeah we are all fickle look at the stick Farrell got and you're right I am sure many will slate Mako if the scrim struggles rather than look at the big picture who was alongside him

Lets be honest Youngs and Stevens are our weakest scrummaging options in their positions, and Vunipola is arguably his weakest scrummaging option there too.

I'd go as far to say that this might be Mako's make or break, if he manages to have a barnstorming game with regards to carrying, and manages to hold his end of the scrum up he has to be test considered, Grant and Corbs would have to come in and do something pretty special.

Vunipola did just about get the best of Castro in the Baabaas game, while Adam was busy demolishing the other side of the scrum.

If Adam and Hibbard start, then I think a weaker scrummaging loose head can be accommodated - it's not like any of the 3 original LHPs were huge scrummagers - although Healy and Gethin are very experienced operators.

wales606 wrote:Vunipola did just about get the best of Castro in the Baabaas game, while Adam was busy demolishing the other side of the scrum.

If Adam and Hibbard start, then I think a weaker scrummaging loose head can be accommodated - it's not like any of the 3 original LHPs were huge scrummagers - although Healy and Gethin are very experienced operators.

Thats going to be key against Robinson, Alexander and Moore though, they are a very experienced settled unit, and are very good at playing to their strengths and nullifying their weaknesses.

Although I agree Jones has always had the measure of the Aussies, but I disagree he was destroying the Ba baa's, James did a fantastic job on him yet was unable to follow it up due to the poor nature of the rest of the front row.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

wales606 wrote:Vunipola did just about get the best of Castro in the Baabaas game, while Adam was busy demolishing the other side of the scrum.

If Adam and Hibbard start, then I think a weaker scrummaging loose head can be accommodated - it's not like any of the 3 original LHPs were huge scrummagers - although Healy and Gethin are very experienced operators.

Thats going to be key against Robinson, Alexander and Moore though, they are a very experienced settled unit, and are very good at playing to their strengths and nullifying their weaknesses.

Although I agree Jones has always had the measure of the Aussies, but I disagree he was destroying the Ba baa's, James did a fantastic job on him yet was unable to follow it up due to the poor nature of the rest of the front row.

I don't blame James, he is a very good scrummager - but he lacked the cohesion of the scrum he was playing.

Still it was impressive that the Lions could decimate that scrum, if Hibbard and Adam play then they will form an effective unit and I expect them the destroy the Aus scrum on the Lions put in at least.

So Gethin Jenkins is "INJURED AGAIN" and not even played in a game yet.

Should he have even come on the tour in the first place? It does beg the question doesn't it?

He was injured in a similar fashion before playing against England madge. He seemed to do ok in that game

RubyGuby wrote:He was injured in a similar fashion before playing against England madge. He seemed to do ok in that game

RubyGuby wrote:He was injured in a similar fashion before playing against England madge. He seemed to do ok in that game

Cannot keep living in the past right?

He is not playing against England. ok..

majesticimperialman wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:He was injured in a similar fashion before playing against England madge. He seemed to do ok in that game

Cannot keep living in the past right?

He is not playing against England. ok..

If that's the case then him being second fiddle to Sheridan is irrelevant, as that's in the past too.