England's 6N post-mortem

First topic message reminder :

Firstly, well done Wales, fantastic final result and worthy winners. I don't want you to think this post is about simply saying England lost rather than Wales won, it isn't intended to. However, i do want to ask people's opinions on England's 6Ns.

Has it been an improvement on last year? How would you rate the coaches' performance in terms of selection, tactics etc. Where have we improved or gone backwards?

For me, our results have flattered us. Much has been made of the improved attitude/culture within the squad, but I don't see it translated into performances particularly. Yes, the players seem less cocky, and?...

The scrum and lineout have gone backwards, the rucking after the Scotland game has been poor, and the attack non-existent. Our defence has been better generally, but was finally exposed by a team powerful enough to suck in players through close drives.

The selections ultimately didn't pay off either, and I think SL deserves criticism for the Croft, Wood, Robshaw back-row...it was easily outclassed, out-thought and out muscled. Some of this you can say is misfortune - having Morgan and Corbisiero out has clearly not helped, but it doesn't explain the selection of a collection of willowy lineout forwards.

I'm obviously frustrated at the result, and possibly i'll see some of this differently after a little more reflection, but I doubt it. What do the rest of you think?

welshboii15 wrote:There was more to England losing so badly than the back row and the English back three, the scrum was going back everytime, which meant youngs had nothing to work with, Farrell clearly can't handle the pressure of such a high game as he was poor, no creativity in the back line at all apart from youngs, manu had next to no ground all championship way over rated and they came up against a team from 1-22 that wanted it more. The England coaches need stay away from the media saying England don't fear Wales, which couldn't have looked more wrong English players filled their shorts when they heard the roar of the stadium. Manu is like Ashton IMO he be lucky to make the England squad in future

School's finished for the day

That's what it is unless your English you ain't aloud to comment, you all live in the past we won world cup yes 10 years ago yes you beat new Zealand apart from beating new Zealand you haven't be good at all. Manu and Farrell are poor players as shown when their under pressure.

welshboii, your conventional rugby wisdom is just wasted on this lot

bluestonevedder wrote:You're right LT, but when they shoot themselves in the foot like that, it's hard to resist commenting back. Complete lack of basic rugby understanding. Oh dear.

I have to say I was wondering quite how he knew that the English players had soiled themselves. There was no obvious stain so he must have been inspecting their arses quite closely!!!!

I think the OP pretty much says it all.

I do think that we can things fixed up here relatively quickly and the Argentina tour will be huge for us.

Corbs back into the front row.

Morgan back into the back row with Billy Vunipola also in the mix

Kvesic possibly coming in to 7 to give us the openside we need.

Robshaw going back to 6 or Wood/croft on a horses for courses approach and to rest occasionally.

Cole needs resting from time to time so we must fast track some more props some how. Wilson does not seem to be trusted. If not he should go altogether.

Burns and 36 to get gametime

Pace into the wings and Brown or Foden at fullback. (you dont need Goode when you have 36 at 12)

Once you have selection right with a balanced side then you need fit players playing in position, get them revved up properly pre game and away you go.

We'll come good. I have zero doubts about that.

p.s Well played Wales! Deserved winners!

A couple of months back scw was advocating burns at 12.
Could it work?

LondonTiger wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:Before the match I congratulated England on being 4 from 4 considering they had a lightweight second row, an unbalanced back row, an offensively inert 10, a blunt midfield and a shockingly poor back 3. I was considered a WUM.

Doesn't seem like a WUM now does it, nor was it meant to be at the time, the truth is just sometimes unpalatable.

Post Mortem report reads "patient dead on arrival start all over again". Or they could just actually pick their best players and then play them in position. Not that I care really

to paraphrase what you said:

"I had said you had done well to win 4 matches when you are crap. That was not a WUM. I am coming back now to say you are really crap. But I don't care about you"


Hmm and you wonder why people take against you?

I posted in plenty of time for Stuart to take my thoughts on board but yet he persisted with his flawed selection policy. How is that my fault

sickofwendy wrote:A couple of months back scw was advocating burns at 12.
Could it work?

I doubt we will ever find out. Many of Woodward's ideas are a bit outdated and this harks back ti him always wanting to have two 10s playing.

sickofwendy wrote:A couple of months back scw was advocating burns at 12.
Could it work?

No. He doesn't have the strength or the tackling ability for a 12. He's the type of player to run the back line and not be a cog in it.

Sorry all, but no one has really grasped the bloody awful nettle here and understood that Lancaster however sensible and inbuing of culture etc. is not actually capable to coach/manage us to the highest level required to win grand slams and world cups. You can argue that scw had numerous failures/opportunities to learn from but i catagorically do not believe sl is comparable to scw and no one should try to believe history will repeat its self if only we stick with sl - I repeat he is not of the calibre of scw or graham henry for that matter who both learnt from their respective failures.
People forget that selection is actually the crux which everything else is bult upon and now for the second time, this 6nations and the summer tour being the first, sl has failed to select a balanced team capable of performing the all court game that successful international sides must do. If the rfu had plums they would say thanks very much sl and take a very short walk across to the stoop where the real deal is currently producing a minor miracle and developing a game plan at the forfront of northern hemisphere rugby.

Hkc

kingelderfield wrote:Sorry all, but no one has really grasped the bloody awful nettle here and understood that Lancaster however sensible and inbuing of culture etc. is not actually capable to coach/manage us to the highest level required to win grand slams and world cups. You can argue that scw had numerous failures/opportunities to learn from but i catagorically do not believe sl is comparable to scw and no one should try to believe history will repeat its self if only we stick with sl - I repeat he is not of the calibre of scw or graham henry for that matter who both learnt from their respective failures.

I just think that is way too strong. SL has had a decent first 14 months, but unsurprisingly it hasn't been spotless. I'm not really sure what he was supposed to do about the no.8 position - in retrospect he probably should have found a way to call up Easter for the Wales game.

Interesting comments from SL saying he was jealous of the physicality of the Welsh backline. I wonder if that will rule Wade out - probably not, but it does give some indication of where England are likely to go.

This summer I expect May and Vunipola will come into the matchday squad, and possibly into the starting line-up. That, and Twelvetrees at IC will make us a lot stronger. I'd also take Tom Casson on tour this summer - I think he's got far more potential than Barritt.

Tour side:

Corbisero
Youngs
Thomas
Attwood (has finally been showing some form)
Kitchener
Wood
Kvesic
Vunipola
Whoever doesn't tour with the Lions
Burns
May
Twelvetress
Tompkins
Wade
Brown

Talking about physicality, a few papers (Times and Daily Fail) have stated that Lancaster will now be looking at playing Manu on one wing with Barritt at 13 and 36 at 12, how they have this info I do not know but if this is the case

Thankfully Tuilagi should be away with the Lions and while he's there he may get shown how to draw and pass, off load or dummy the opposition (you know, the things kids learn in their teens).

While Tuilagi's away we'll hopefully see a few of the other 13's get a go Trinder, Tomkins or Lowe preferably.

I would be concerned if Lancaster gets advised by PSA now!

Tuilagi on the wing, bloody hell. He's good but he's not so good that we must find any old position for him.

Lancaster blew it and has been making wrong selection calls all through the tourny. I like SL, I think he has brought a huge amount of positive stuff to the England camp. He has a no nonsense clear head for most things. However, his selections are bad in some areas. Something I hope and pray he will rectify soon.

1. We MUST play a No8 in the No8 position. Putting Wood there was a massive error. If Morgan wasn't fit then why didn't he play Billy V?
2. Ashton clearly is just not good enough to be in the squad. I hope SL has the guts to accept he has been wrong here and let Ashton return to Sarries.
3. CROFT! Another massive error. You need all your backrow in a tight game to play hard. It is disrespectful to any opposition team to allow a backrow player to hang around on the wing.
4. Brown clearly is the best No15 out of the current crop available and MUST play at 15 if he is on the pitch.
5. SL must find 2 attacking wingers with pace that can also do the defensive half of the job. eg, Wade has good pace and I've also seen him haul Nick Easter down when on a rampaging charge on his own. He clearly has the appetite for the macho stuff.

So there we have it. A 5-point plan for almost instant success. I commend it to the house.

Isnt it far more important that when you play against a team that has good foragers like Tips and Warburton that you don't stand off the breakdown committing as few players as possible.

That when you are struggling in the scrum you revert to basics rather than pushing the limits.

England...totally agree with all your points. Really frustrating that coaches continue to make these selection errors. Thyey must be seeing something in training that convinces them to err, but if they only took the time to read this forum they would become enlightenend to our collective wisdom.

If I was English I wouldn't let the manner of the defeat last Saturday create too radical a change - although some changes are inevitable. The team has put some good rugby together. Against Wales SL got some combinations wrong but there's plenty of talent around.

The tight five is not a bad unit, particularly if Corbisero is back. Robshaw and Morgan are class and just need a really good 7 added. Wood is also one of the best 6's in the NH. I would persevere with Youngs and Farrell (and bring on Burns who looks class). Brown is the best FB in England imo (Foden won't return to form and Goode aint goode enough). Twelvetrees can become the best English 12 since Greenwood and Tuilagi will develop into an outstanding centre. England also have plenty of genuine excellent wings to pick.

Probably not a great week if you're an English rugby fan (I've experienced the same feelings often enough!) but certainly not a time for despair. It will be interesting to see how much appetite SL will have for some change.

Glory, Maes,
All of the above plus beefier wingers and one more:
Better options at L/head than Marler.
I think Vainipola shows potential, could / needs to improve, Corbs is sorely missed, any other LH options from anyone ?

The thing I like about Vunipola (and how many possible variations of spelling his name are there?) is that he is obviously improving all the time, and he is a genuine option as a ball carrier. It is just the most annoying thing about Marler is that he hasnt been able to bring that side of his game to international level. Still - they are all very young in a position that takes a long time to master.

LIW +1

Yeah i think we musnt forget...Launchbury, Marler, Tuilagi, Farrell...etc are all still kids.

Marler is a crackin player...he just needs more time. He should be given that time to try and bring that Club game to this level. IF he cant...fine we will look elsewhere.
Ditto, Tuilagi with his passing / game awareness, Farrell with his creativity etc.

Saturday hurt like hell as a fan...imagine how you must feel as one of those lads on the pitch. They need a chance to redeem that performance.
But yes there does need to be a couple of tweaks aswell...Argentina is going to be very interesting.

Some of the post mortems in the national press are far too scathing of England in that they suggest that there is no way forward for us now. That we're "doomed" to be knocked out of the next RWC at the group stages etc.

It's over the top. For e.g James Lawton in the independent questioned where the players are to improve us to the requisite standard.

I'll you what James i don't get paid to write this as you do but how about for a start......



Corbisiero
Henry Thomas
B. Vunipola
Ben Morgan
Matt Kvesic
Billy Twelvetrees
Freddie Burns
Christian Wade
Johnny May
Marland Yarde
Kyle Eastmond


Off the top of my head and for a start!!

Don't Cry for Me Argentina!

James Lawton always always always has it in for English rugby (e.g. Martin Johnson was always a thug until he won something...). I really dont like him at all. He is much less critical of football.

Tri

But even most of the current team is fine...they just came up against a side that was more experienced, have been there and done it before ..etc

Launchbury is 20/21...he's a MASSIVE future in the international game.

Marler, got taught a bit of a lesson against a very experienced guy who alongside Cole is rated the best TH in the world. No disgrace for a 23 year old i think he is.

There were some decent performances...Robshaw yet again proved he is top drawer. Would an option be to return him to 6 and bring in the rare quality of Kvesic now? But then we lose Wood, who has come in for some criticism. But again he aint no No.8.
We have options.

Possible changes:
Sadly again i have to say Croft should have played his last game for England.
Brritt needs to have a rest and Twelvetrees needs to be brought in.
The back three need tweaked.

Because you're destroyed in one game that's the end of hope????

I'll bet the All Blacks feel the same. They think it's all over now since the Autumn humiliation.....

Next 6 Nations, I would love to see this team:

1. Corbisiero
2. Youngs
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Parling
6. Tom Wood
7. Robshaw (C)
8. Morgan/ Vunipola

9. Youngs
10. Burns
11. Wade
12. Twelvetrees
13. Tuilagi
14. Johnny May
15. Brown

Dropping Farrell is harsh I know, but I really just want to see some attacking flair, and I think with a backline like that, Burns could really create some lovely stuff!

Kvesic would undoubtedly be on the bench to cover 7/8.
Henry Thomas in a tight head cover too.
Mako warming the pine.
Attwood in and around the squad as a bit of a menace, because I really think we're suffering by not having a big, big guy.
I guess Hartley at hooker, unless the likes of Webber, George, or even Buchanan (who I really like the look of) break through. Webber looks a little out of shape to me at the moment.

You look at England's front five and you just think lightweight. At the moment they will struggle to get guys like Tuilagi and Ashton front foot momentum if they at best reach parity in the tight.

Wales was perhaps 30kg heavier up front. A first team bok front five at the moment weighs in about 600kg.. they would have eaten ENG alive on Saturday had they faced them.

NZ put a number of their players of weight regimes a few years back... telling them they were inaqequate for test rugby at their current size.

Marler, Lawes, Launchbery ... even Cole should look to increase their size. Cole is a demon in the loose but he earns his money in the scrum, in the tight.
Youngs... fine impact player against the right opposition.. but not the answer long term... Hibbard towered over him all game. Bismarck would have just laughed.

I agree, you do think lightweight. We looked very small compared to the Welsh pack. Cole is quite tall, so I think tends to look smaller in frame than he is. Marler certainly could do with some more size, and the same for Parling and Launchbury. If Lawes wants to be the player he so desperately tries to make out that he is, he needs to seriously bulk. He actually looked very undersized, and almost Gaskell-esque.

England need some muscle in the pack.

I agree id like to see Marler put a stone on...he's around the 17.5 st mark i believe whereas Corbs is up over 19.

But Lawes is up at 18.5 and im sure Launchbury is over 18 aswell. Being young all three of them will put weight on. But putting weight on needs to be correctly done.

Marler could use another stone...but lauchburys game is his power and athleticism.

Putting too much weight on can be negative....just ask Ben Cohen...

You'd never see Jonno or Bakkies get strong armed like Lawes did last season.

He looks more suited to the basketball court given his athleticism rather than a rugby pitch. He's a lock, they need grunt and power. I think Lawes could be an all-time great if he got himself in shape (rugby shape).

See Etzebeth for athleticism... I would say Etzebeth has maybe 15kg on Lawes and it shows.

SecretFly and ors

I don’t share the doomesayers and im not calling for wholesale change either but we do have areas to address and I back Lancaster and his coaches to do just that.

No time to panic and damage ourselves now. We have to quickly learn and apply our lessons. The shame of it is for supporters and possibly for coaches and players is that we have to wait until June.

On another note I think the Lions will now justifiably have a red core but how much if anything will the Heineken Cup now count towards Lions selection??

I really try not to go by the reported player stats. Corbs is still aparently around 120kg, but if you look at when he first came on the International scene and compare him to now, he had really slimmed down and looks a lot fitter. He's lost weight, but is still a big guy. Some of it might be down to his gluten allergy I think?

Launchbury will put on weight naturally, you're right. Lawes on the other hand, is almost at the age where he should be hitting peak weight I think.

Is it time for......MAtt Garvey...now there s lump of second row...

bluestonevedder

You're right in that weight alone is not the solution... Adam Jones was a fun figure for years before he developed his game and got really fit (for a prop) and was not the force he is now.
Vunipola must be touching 130kg... but you can see where it all is!!!

It has to be done in a controlled manner else it will just go in the wrong areas.

A pairing of Launchbery and Lawes would be awesome to see (as long as their is a lineout blindside like Wood or Croft in the side)... but its not realistic at the moment as both are athletic types and Lawes especially.

More English rather than English qualified players might help.Hired guns never can be as committed as the indigenous at International level.

Taffineastbourne wrote:More English rather than English qualified players might help.Hired guns never can be as committed as the indigenous at International level.

Sigh..................

Seems to have worked out OK for Wales

Making leaps of faith from unlikely results is dangerous.
England comfortably beat the world champions and therefore will win the next RWC.....
England are easily beaten by 3rd tier Wales and therefore won't get out of their RWC pool....
Wales stuff England who spanked the ABs and will therefore win the next RWC....

Throwing the baby, plug and bath out with the bath-water isn't necessary. But lessons have to be learnt. SL needs to (re)learn certain key principles - pace and defence in the back 3; carrying and control from the no 8; LO and scummaging from the hooker; positional experience everywhere (if rugby needed 2 FBs then we wouldn't have 2 winger positions); if your pack is lightweight and mobile - concentrate on speed (of man and ball recovery) and not an attritional arm-wrestle; and someone please inform the team that they will often encounter opposition who really want to beat us bad and not to be rather surprised by the big bullies. We need better selection, a better gameplan, and more dog - but not a whole new team.

Taffineastbourne wrote:More English rather than English qualified players might help.Hired guns never can be as committed as the indigenous at International level.

ha ha - look at Tuilagi during the anthems.
He grasps the rose on his chest and hollers out the words with more passion than the other 14 starters put together !

lostinwales wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:More English rather than English qualified players might help.Hired guns never can be as committed as the indigenous at International level.

Sigh..................

Seems to have worked out OK for Wales

We keep the numbers to a minimum and are blessed in that with our record we attract genuine people rather than trophy hunters.

gregortree wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:More English rather than English qualified players might help.Hired guns never can be as committed as the indigenous at International level.

ha ha - look at Tuilagi during the anthems.
He grasps the rose on his chest and hollers out the words with more passion than the other 14 starters put together !

Get him to Glynedborne as he sings better than he plays Rugby!Ha ha!

Tui is a brilliant attacker when his pack get ball, ask Richie McCaw.

Taffineastbourne wrote:More English rather than English qualified players might help.Hired guns never can be as committed as the indigenous at International level.

This is a boring topic that has been done to death. Yet here we go again:

Marler - English born and bred
Youngsx2 - Ditto
Cole - Ditto
Launchbury - ditto
Parling - ditto
Croft - ditto
Robshaw - ditto
Wood - Ditto
Farrell - ditto
Ashton - ditto
Brown - ditto
Goode - ditto.

I make that 13 players out of the starting XV who I assume meet the requirement you have set for englishness?

Please dont bite any more. This was a sensible discussion and it doesnt deserve to be taken over by dumb arguments from people who can do a lot better

Sorry

Bit of TaffBanter , but I'll stop feeding him.

Gregor, LT

can you imagine how Taff must feel...not only is his hero (George North ) born in the country of his hated enemy...but just about to return home there to play rugby....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Gregor, LT

can you imagine how Taff must feel...not only is his hero (George North ) born in the country of his hated enemy...but just about to return home there to play rugby....

Plus the inevitable return of Cuthbert back across the Severn to his home club. It's a tough time to support "Welsh" wingers at the moment...