England's 6N post-mortem

First topic message reminder :

Firstly, well done Wales, fantastic final result and worthy winners. I don't want you to think this post is about simply saying England lost rather than Wales won, it isn't intended to. However, i do want to ask people's opinions on England's 6Ns.

Has it been an improvement on last year? How would you rate the coaches' performance in terms of selection, tactics etc. Where have we improved or gone backwards?

For me, our results have flattered us. Much has been made of the improved attitude/culture within the squad, but I don't see it translated into performances particularly. Yes, the players seem less cocky, and?...

The scrum and lineout have gone backwards, the rucking after the Scotland game has been poor, and the attack non-existent. Our defence has been better generally, but was finally exposed by a team powerful enough to suck in players through close drives.

The selections ultimately didn't pay off either, and I think SL deserves criticism for the Croft, Wood, Robshaw back-row...it was easily outclassed, out-thought and out muscled. Some of this you can say is misfortune - having Morgan and Corbisiero out has clearly not helped, but it doesn't explain the selection of a collection of willowy lineout forwards.

I'm obviously frustrated at the result, and possibly i'll see some of this differently after a little more reflection, but I doubt it. What do the rest of you think?

yes, North is coming home, whereas Taff has to put up with the edgy side of life in Eastbourne.

The interesting thing about that match, was that though Wales were just ahead in the 1st half, it was very close until that first try was scored, due to losing ball in contact (which we were repeatedly guilty of) and then Wales' confidence went up and we looked lost. Wales easily deserved that win, but Walsh's refereeing of the scrum and breakdown, in my biased opinion, were awful bordering on abysmal. I don't want to be seen as whining and that didn't lose us the game or even greatly affect the margin IMO, but it was frustrating and really reduced our ability to get any hand on the game.

Adam Jones bound on Marler and Mako's arm every bloody scrum and fair play to him you do that if you don't get caught and the young Props were too inexperienced at this level again to know how to counter it but it highlighted once again for me that the modern scrum is an absolute farce. Ditto on the early pushes- I don't blame Wales for doing it and England as Moore said should have done it back to counter it but once a referee decides one team has an edge in area he won't change his mind- as seen in T1 of the Lions in SA- until new players come on. The fact that even then Walsh didn't change his mind is a little suspect to me.

Our lineouts looked poor even when we won them. Wales' 2 7s won the breakdown easily in the second half though actually it seemed to be their general counter rucking and our awful ball placement that made us so easy to turnover. We missed a lot of tackles, which is actually more worrying to me as that is a real problem not one that can be attributed to the occasion. Wales in general hit the line harder all match and started to really play well whilst we looked tired.

15- Goode- bloody awful game by a good player, not been his 6N, he gets a lot of ball but he slows down before contact with a fairly pointless step that kills his momentum and he also doesn't look to pass as much as he did in the autumn. As for the tournament, started well enough but got worse evry match just like England. Having a 2nd receiver and distributor is only useful if we then try and distribute and play the ball with enough pace to generate gaps. He failed in this regard.
14- Ashton- defence is getting embarrassing, needs to be dropped to find some form. Also thought he was close to a card for an insane stamping fit at a ruck. North literally treated him like a rag doll. Missed so many tackles this tournament and looks toothless and too easy to rile up.
13- Manu- anonymous in that last game, and in Italy too. Should have taken that pass, should have been around to prevent some of those 2/3 on 1s on turnover ball and should have given the pass when we had an overlap. Literally back to back the 2 worse performances I have seen from him. A lethal weapon that we are not using effectively at all.
12- Barritt- not spectacular but willing. Useful at saving some rucks from being penalised when players nearly let themselves get isolated. He is very limited at this level though, not sure that Farrell-Barritt-Tuilagi is a viable combo especially with no flair in the wings. Solid tournament though
11- Brown- I'm biased here. He has been much maligned and not deservedly. Try saving tap tackle and there was literally nothing he could have done on either try. The second the Welsh spread to an overlap both were 100% certain tries, though Brown's lack of pace probably didn't help. Shouldn't have tried to pass after Farrell's kick though. Good tournament for me but too easily exposed at wing positionally and needs to play 15.
10- Farrell- had a good game if lacking fitness. Kick to Brown was pure class as was his kicking out of hand for touch. Kicked too much though, hence Welsh possession. Missed some easy points though that might have helped, but not that instrumental compared to turnover tries. Great tackling. Dire passing on several occasions. We need Burns as a flair option. But we knew that before this tournament anyway.
9- Youngs- Good first half, less good second half. Physically bullied by Phillips but had little chance with the way the pack got mauled in the 2nd half. Conceded 3 penalties.
8- Wood. Tried hard but not an 8 and did cough up the ball a lot. Made a lot of tackles though, very brave defence esp on the scramble.
7- Robshaw- even JD said he had a great 1st half (and he did) but looked tired and in need of other leaders in the second half. Missed 3 tackles (made 18) he wouldn't expect to though for at least one it didn't help that he own players got in the way. still a strong tournament.
6- Croft. Not fit enough again for this level. Missing on the fringes a lot. Not his best game but he's been rushed back too soon and not helped by the bizarrely lightweight back row. I don't think Wood and Croft can start in the same back row.
5- Parling- tried hard and made some ground at least. Decent game all around. decent 6N actually
4_ Launchbury- not a good game, missed tackles and looked worried for the first time. Tournament was otherwise a success.
3- Cole. Worst few matches I have seen from him, he got a pasting like Marler but his was from Jenkins of all people! Also missed tackles but at least he was working in the loose. Was penalised for 2/5 scrum pens, against Marler's 1 and T Youngs' 2.
2- Youngs- his props made life difficult for him. Never looked comfortable in the lineout
1- Marler - had a torrid time against Jones - not legally but he needs to learn to counter tricks like that. Also aside from one steal and a few tackles he once again offered little in the loose. He is basically a baby at this level though at age 22 for a prop and he and Mako will improve.

Mako- looked better than Marler in the loose, equally pummeled in the scrum though. Hartley- solid enough. Wilson- barely had time to do anything. Lawes- noticed little about his game. Haskell- ditto. Care- added urgency but was too late anyway. Flood and Twelvetrees- could make any impact on the game

Just one point with Goode - He managed on a number of occasions this six nations to beat, or at least half beat the first man and get his arms free to pass but had no one to pass to. Ashton, on form, would have been there and a nice move would have started.

I would actually drop both players at the moment (for different reasons) but I just thought I'd bring this up as no one else seems to have mentioned it.

ChequeredJersey wrote:The interesting thing about that match, was that though Wales were just ahead in the 1st half, it was very close until that first try was scored, due to losing ball in contact (which we were repeatedly guilty of) and then Wales' confidence went up and we looked lost. Wales easily deserved that win, but Walsh's refereeing of the scrum and breakdown, in my biased opinion, were awful bordering on abysmal. I don't want to be seen as whining and that didn't lose us the game or even greatly affect the margin IMO, but it was frustrating and really reduced our ability to get any hand on the game.

Adam Jones bound on Marler and Mako's arm every bloody scrum and fair play to him you do that if you don't get caught and the young Props were too inexperienced at this level again to know how to counter it but it highlighted once again for me that the modern scrum is an absolute farce. Ditto on the early pushes- I don't blame Wales for doing it and England as Moore said should have done it back to counter it but once a referee decides one team has an edge in area he won't change his mind- as seen in T1 of the Lions in SA- until new players come on. The fact that even then Walsh didn't change his mind is a little suspect to me.

Our lineouts looked poor even when we won them. Wales' 2 7s won the breakdown easily in the second half though actually it seemed to be their general counter rucking and our awful ball placement that made us so easy to turnover. We missed a lot of tackles, which is actually more worrying to me as that is a real problem not one that can be attributed to the occasion. Wales in general hit the line harder all match and started to really play well whilst we looked tired.

15- Goode- bloody awful game by a good player, not been his 6N, he gets a lot of ball but he slows down before contact with a fairly pointless step that kills his momentum and he also doesn't look to pass as much as he did in the autumn. As for the tournament, started well enough but got worse evry match just like England. Having a 2nd receiver and distributor is only useful if we then try and distribute and play the ball with enough pace to generate gaps. He failed in this regard.
14- Ashton- defence is getting embarrassing, needs to be dropped to find some form. Also thought he was close to a card for an insane stamping fit at a ruck. North literally treated him like a rag doll. Missed so many tackles this tournament and looks toothless and too easy to rile up.
13- Manu- anonymous in that last game, and in Italy too. Should have taken that pass, should have been around to prevent some of those 2/3 on 1s on turnover ball and should have given the pass when we had an overlap. Literally back to back the 2 worse performances I have seen from him. A lethal weapon that we are not using effectively at all.
12- Barritt- not spectacular but willing. Useful at saving some rucks from being penalised when players nearly let themselves get isolated. He is very limited at this level though, not sure that Farrell-Barritt-Tuilagi is a viable combo especially with no flair in the wings. Solid tournament though
11- Brown- I'm biased here. He has been much maligned and not deservedly. Try saving tap tackle and there was literally nothing he could have done on either try. The second the Welsh spread to an overlap both were 100% certain tries, though Brown's lack of pace probably didn't help. Shouldn't have tried to pass after Farrell's kick though. Good tournament for me but too easily exposed at wing positionally and needs to play 15.
10- Farrell- had a good game if lacking fitness. Kick to Brown was pure class as was his kicking out of hand for touch. Kicked too much though, hence Welsh possession. Missed some easy points though that might have helped, but not that instrumental compared to turnover tries. Great tackling. Dire passing on several occasions. We need Burns as a flair option. But we knew that before this tournament anyway.
9- Youngs- Good first half, less good second half. Physically bullied by Phillips but had little chance with the way the pack got mauled in the 2nd half. Conceded 3 penalties.
8- Wood. Tried hard but not an 8 and did cough up the ball a lot. Made a lot of tackles though, very brave defence esp on the scramble.
7- Robshaw- even JD said he had a great 1st half (and he did) but looked tired and in need of other leaders in the second half. Missed 3 tackles (made 18) he wouldn't expect to though for at least one it didn't help that he own players got in the way. still a strong tournament.
6- Croft. Not fit enough again for this level. Missing on the fringes a lot. Not his best game but he's been rushed back too soon and not helped by the bizarrely lightweight back row. I don't think Wood and Croft can start in the same back row.
5- Parling- tried hard and made some ground at least. Decent game all around. decent 6N actually
4_ Launchbury- not a good game, missed tackles and looked worried for the first time. Tournament was otherwise a success.
3- Cole. Worst few matches I have seen from him, he got a pasting like Marler but his was from Jenkins of all people! Also missed tackles but at least he was working in the loose. Was penalised for 2/5 scrum pens, against Marler's 1 and T Youngs' 2.
2- Youngs- his props made life difficult for him. Never looked comfortable in the lineout
1- Marler - had a torrid time against Jones - not legally but he needs to learn to counter tricks like that. Also aside from one steal and a few tackles he once again offered little in the loose. He is basically a baby at this level though at age 22 for a prop and he and Mako will improve.

Mako- looked better than Marler in the loose, equally pummeled in the scrum though. Hartley- solid enough. Wilson- barely had time to do anything. Lawes- noticed little about his game. Haskell- ditto. Care- added urgency but was too late anyway. Flood and Twelvetrees- could make any impact on the game

Good summary by the way

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is it time for......MAtt Garvey...now there s lump of second row...

Still beating that drum eh?! Bring in Attwood I say, at least he looks like a second row. Unlike Parling and Lauchberry, I am struggling to remember Lawes bossing and standing out in an international match.

Bathman,

Yeah well until im proven wrong i still think hes a monster of a guy with a huge defence...who could add some serious balast in that engine room.
The guy never..or very rarely has a bad game. And when you hear Irish fans say losing Corbs, JJ etc would be a blow...but garvey would be a disaster then you have to take notice.

Likewise if Attwood is finally showing the top form he showed for Gloucester again...i would happily see him brought in.

I agree with you i think we need a serious beast in that second row...ive said it for a long time now. We have some crackin mobile players...but you need a balance.

bluestonevedder wrote:Next 6 Nations, I would love to see this team:

1. Corbisiero
2. Youngs
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Parling
6. Tom Wood
7. Robshaw (C)
8. Morgan/ Vunipola

9. Youngs
10. Burns
11. Wade
12. Twelvetrees
13. Tuilagi
14. Johnny May
15. Brown

Dropping Farrell is harsh I know, but I really just want to see some attacking flair, and I think with a backline like that, Burns could really create some lovely stuff!

Kvesic would undoubtedly be on the bench to cover 7/8.
Henry Thomas in a tight head cover too.
Mako warming the pine.
Attwood in and around the squad as a bit of a menace, because I really think we're suffering by not having a big, big guy.
I guess Hartley at hooker, unless the likes of Webber, George, or even Buchanan (who I really like the look of) break through. Webber looks a little out of shape to me at the moment.

I wouldn't mind seeing that team either - as long as Wade keeps working on his defensive positioning. But we could have seen 13 of them on the pitch at some point on Saturday if it hadn't been for injury to Corbisiero, Morgan, Vunipola and Burns. Saturday's result was shaped as much by England having injuries at the wrong time as it was by Welsh players returning from injury and finding form at the right time.

England have a handful of selection and squad issues - depth at prop and No 8, finding form wingers with an all-round game, and sorting out who should play centre and full back. Lancaster tried to rely on good players out of position rather than bring in untried specialists, and it worked until we came up against a Wales team who have finally found their form. We can hope that lesson has been learned and a few more players will be brought through over the summer in the problem positions.

It might be tricky, though. We seem to be short of depth at 8 in particular, and the most promising THs are a year or two away from being ready to try.

I was just pulling your leg!

As we know he has clearly insulted Lancaster's mother during that Saxons game, otherwise why would Botha still be ahead of him in the pecking order?

I hope lessons are learned, Argentina is not a place to take a light weight pack.

Argentina will be usefull to us tbh.

We do have a big squad that is for sure. So we can be competitive even if you lose key players.

Also argentina is the perfect opposition in terms of quality to test the rest.

I was just pulling your leg!

Sorry Marra

Yeah something happened but surely apologies should be made and he should be looked at in the squad. If he looks out of his depth...then hey fairs fairs...ill not mention him again...but i dont think he would be out of his depth.

i still think launchbury despite being quiet on Saturday will be a top top lock....and he will put some weight on...he's only 20/21...

And we have Slater, Attwood, Kitchener, Kruis etc. But of all them only Attwood and Garvey have that Second Row monstrous build that i still think teams need.

I mean look at Etzebeth...the guy is huge....

Launchbury's partner at England U20 was Charlie Matthews. He's taken slightly longer to adapt to the senior game, but he's 6'8" and over 19 stone at not quite 23. That's 1 inch taller and 1 stone heavier than Attwood, and the same height but 3lb lighter than Etzebeth and he's likely to get bigger as he fills out.

Lancaster's already indicated that he's close to making the Saxons and for Quins he is decent cover for both Robson (i.e. he can run a lineout) and Kohn (i.e. he provides serious grunt in the scrum). Needs to work on his body position when running as he's a little too easy to fell at the moment, but is improving rapidly.

Definitely one to watch.

With the talent outlined we should be making the right calls now and properly assessing them at this level. I think we could have done with an extra year but these guys should be able to hack it and be good in time. Looking further forward we should be good for the next 2 WCs and there's no need to look further than that right now. Agree that Argentina is a good test bed if SL makes it so. Here's hoping.

Yeah Matthews has been mentioned several times hasnt he. And thats the size of player we're looking for. Several quins fans have said he is improving nicely as back up to Robson and Kohn.

With a partnership like him and Launchbury you could afford to have a lineout guy like Croft at 6...though i still far prefer Wood.

Garvey and Attwood are first choicers though. Matthews needs to be first choice at Quins to challenge. But he looks promising.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah Matthews has been mentioned several times hasnt he. And thats the size of player we're looking for. Several quins fans have said he is improving nicely as back up to Robson and Kohn.

With a partnership like him and Launchbury you could afford to have a lineout guy like Croft at 6...though i still far prefer Wood.

Garvey and Attwood are first choicers though. Matthews needs to be first choice at Quins to challenge. But he looks promising.

The issue with Garvey is that he's playing a lot at 6. If the rumours are true that he's going to Bath, then he'll play even more there as with Attwood, Caldwell, Day and Hooper they don't need another lock. I would prefer to see him play as the enforcer lock and feel his international aspirations would be better served playing there too. Perhaps he should think about joining a side that needs a lock...

gregortree wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:More English rather than English qualified players might help.Hired guns never can be as committed as the indigenous at International level.

ha ha - look at Tuilagi during the anthems.
He grasps the rose on his chest and hollers out the words with more passion than the other 14 starters put together !

I bet UKBA are watching to check he gets every word right!

100%beefy wrote:

gregortree wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:More English rather than English qualified players might help.Hired guns never can be as committed as the indigenous at International level.

ha ha - look at Tuilagi during the anthems.
He grasps the rose on his chest and hollers out the words with more passion than the other 14 starters put together !

I bet UKBA are watching to check he gets every word right!

Possibly giving them more credit than they deserve...

Bathman_in_London wrote:

100%beefy wrote:

gregortree wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:More English rather than English qualified players might help.Hired guns never can be as committed as the indigenous at International level.

ha ha - look at Tuilagi during the anthems.
He grasps the rose on his chest and hollers out the words with more passion than the other 14 starters put together !

I bet UKBA are watching to check he gets every word right!

Possibly giving them more credit than they deserve...

good point

HongKongCherry wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah Matthews has been mentioned several times hasnt he. And thats the size of player we're looking for. Several quins fans have said he is improving nicely as back up to Robson and Kohn.

With a partnership like him and Launchbury you could afford to have a lineout guy like Croft at 6...though i still far prefer Wood.

Garvey and Attwood are first choicers though. Matthews needs to be first choice at Quins to challenge. But he looks promising.

The issue with Garvey is that he's playing a lot at 6. If the rumours are true that he's going to Bath, then he'll play even more there as with Attwood, Caldwell, Day and Hooper they don't need another lock. I would prefer to see him play as the enforcer lock and feel his international aspirations would be better served playing there too. Perhaps he should think about joining a side that needs a lock...

Like Sale to replace Gray you mean?!

You are right though, it would be better for him if he settled on second row. England has 6's all over the place, but there is definitely a gap for a brute of a second row.

LondonTiger wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:More English rather than English qualified players might help.Hired guns never can be as committed as the indigenous at International level.

This is a boring topic that has been done to death. Yet here we go again:

Marler - English born and bred
Youngsx2 - Ditto
Cole - Ditto
Launchbury - ditto
Parling - ditto
Croft - ditto
Robshaw - ditto
Wood - Ditto
Farrell - ditto
Ashton - ditto
Brown - ditto
Goode - ditto.

I make that 13 players out of the starting XV who I assume meet the requirement you have set for englishness?

A couple more might have made the difference!You keep picking them fellas whose surname ends in a vowel.It might work one day.

gregortree wrote:yes, North is coming home, whereas Taff has to put up with the edgy side of life in Eastbourne.

Oi!I went to school in Goucestershire so I know edgy when I see it!

Taff,
but not long enough at school to learn how to spell our County name then ?
There again your Welsh ancestors stole loads of the LLLLLLLLLLs from our English language.

Well there was a lorrah stealin' going on in them days

Someone steals a pig, another guy steals a consonant...and another guy might steal a country. They were all at it in the dark old days of yore.

Gregor,how arrogant of you to assume that I did not mean Goucestershire.I must presume that you are English with this trait.

No Taff,
I think I'm now Engish seeing as you've stolen all my LLLLLLLLLs.
I may be arrogant but Tefer said you LLLLot were LLLLLazy.
Which btw shows up Jim's knowedge.

gregortree wrote:No Taff,
I think I'm now Engish seeing as you've stolen all my LLLLLLLLLs.
I may be arrogant but Tefer said you LLLLot were LLLLLazy.
Which btw shows up Jim's knowedge.

Pop over to the Scarlets.Their town could spare an L and not miss it.

We nicked Morgan & the scarlets coach back over to 'Goucester', so we're done for now.

ChequeredJersey wrote:The interesting thing about that match, was that though Wales were just ahead in the 1st half, it was very close until that first try was scored, due to losing ball in contact (which we were repeatedly guilty of) and then Wales' confidence went up and we looked lost. Wales easily deserved that win, but Walsh's refereeing of the scrum and breakdown, in my biased opinion, were awful bordering on abysmal. I don't want to be seen as whining and that didn't lose us the game or even greatly affect the margin IMO, but it was frustrating and really reduced our ability to get any hand on the game.

Adam Jones bound on Marler and Mako's arm every bloody scrum and fair play to him you do that if you don't get caught and the young Props were too inexperienced at this level again to know how to counter it but it highlighted once again for me that the modern scrum is an absolute farce. Ditto on the early pushes- I don't blame Wales for doing it and England as Moore said should have done it back to counter it but once a referee decides one team has an edge in area he won't change his mind- as seen in T1 of the Lions in SA- until new players come on. The fact that even then Walsh didn't change his mind is a little suspect to me.

Our lineouts looked poor even when we won them. Wales' 2 7s won the breakdown easily in the second half though actually it seemed to be their general counter rucking and our awful ball placement that made us so easy to turnover. We missed a lot of tackles, which is actually more worrying to me as that is a real problem not one that can be attributed to the occasion. Wales in general hit the line harder all match and started to really play well whilst we looked tired.

15- Goode- bloody awful game by a good player, not been his 6N, he gets a lot of ball but he slows down before contact with a fairly pointless step that kills his momentum and he also doesn't look to pass as much as he did in the autumn. As for the tournament, started well enough but got worse evry match just like England. Having a 2nd receiver and distributor is only useful if we then try and distribute and play the ball with enough pace to generate gaps. He failed in this regard.
14- Ashton- defence is getting embarrassing, needs to be dropped to find some form. Also thought he was close to a card for an insane stamping fit at a ruck. North literally treated him like a rag doll. Missed so many tackles this tournament and looks toothless and too easy to rile up.
13- Manu- anonymous in that last game, and in Italy too. Should have taken that pass, should have been around to prevent some of those 2/3 on 1s on turnover ball and should have given the pass when we had an overlap. Literally back to back the 2 worse performances I have seen from him. A lethal weapon that we are not using effectively at all.
12- Barritt- not spectacular but willing. Useful at saving some rucks from being penalised when players nearly let themselves get isolated. He is very limited at this level though, not sure that Farrell-Barritt-Tuilagi is a viable combo especially with no flair in the wings. Solid tournament though
11- Brown- I'm biased here. He has been much maligned and not deservedly. Try saving tap tackle and there was literally nothing he could have done on either try. The second the Welsh spread to an overlap both were 100% certain tries, though Brown's lack of pace probably didn't help. Shouldn't have tried to pass after Farrell's kick though. Good tournament for me but too easily exposed at wing positionally and needs to play 15.
10- Farrell- had a good game if lacking fitness. Kick to Brown was pure class as was his kicking out of hand for touch. Kicked too much though, hence Welsh possession. Missed some easy points though that might have helped, but not that instrumental compared to turnover tries. Great tackling. Dire passing on several occasions. We need Burns as a flair option. But we knew that before this tournament anyway.
9- Youngs- Good first half, less good second half. Physically bullied by Phillips but had little chance with the way the pack got mauled in the 2nd half. Conceded 3 penalties.
8- Wood. Tried hard but not an 8 and did cough up the ball a lot. Made a lot of tackles though, very brave defence esp on the scramble.
7- Robshaw- even JD said he had a great 1st half (and he did) but looked tired and in need of other leaders in the second half. Missed 3 tackles (made 18) he wouldn't expect to though for at least one it didn't help that he own players got in the way. still a strong tournament.
6- Croft. Not fit enough again for this level. Missing on the fringes a lot. Not his best game but he's been rushed back too soon and not helped by the bizarrely lightweight back row. I don't think Wood and Croft can start in the same back row.
5- Parling- tried hard and made some ground at least. Decent game all around. decent 6N actually
4_ Launchbury- not a good game, missed tackles and looked worried for the first time. Tournament was otherwise a success.
3- Cole. Worst few matches I have seen from him, he got a pasting like Marler but his was from Jenkins of all people! Also missed tackles but at least he was working in the loose. Was penalised for 2/5 scrum pens, against Marler's 1 and T Youngs' 2.
2- Youngs- his props made life difficult for him. Never looked comfortable in the lineout
1- Marler - had a torrid time against Jones - not legally but he needs to learn to counter tricks like that. Also aside from one steal and a few tackles he once again offered little in the loose. He is basically a baby at this level though at age 22 for a prop and he and Mako will improve.

Mako- looked better than Marler in the loose, equally pummeled in the scrum though. Hartley- solid enough. Wilson- barely had time to do anything. Lawes- noticed little about his game. Haskell- ditto. Care- added urgency but was too late anyway. Flood and Twelvetrees- could make any impact on the game

Agree with all of that. charlie mathews is one to watch, had a stormer in the LV final and for a while now has looked likke he's getting better every game.

Fecking massive for a kiddy as well

HongKongCherry wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah Matthews has been mentioned several times hasnt he. And thats the size of player we're looking for. Several quins fans have said he is improving nicely as back up to Robson and Kohn.

With a partnership like him and Launchbury you could afford to have a lineout guy like Croft at 6...though i still far prefer Wood.

Garvey and Attwood are first choicers though. Matthews needs to be first choice at Quins to challenge. But he looks promising.

The issue with Garvey is that he's playing a lot at 6. If the rumours are true that he's going to Bath, then he'll play even more there as with Attwood, Caldwell, Day and Hooper they don't need another lock. I would prefer to see him play as the enforcer lock and feel his international aspirations would be better served playing there too. Perhaps he should think about joining a side that needs a lock...

Matthews will supplant Garvey and Attwood in the england pecking order, I fear we'll have to wait until he's picked though to see a big unit at lock. Perhaps we'll try out a few other props before then and get someone with a bit more nasty about him.

yappysnap wrote:

HongKongCherry wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah Matthews has been mentioned several times hasnt he. And thats the size of player we're looking for. Several quins fans have said he is improving nicely as back up to Robson and Kohn.

With a partnership like him and Launchbury you could afford to have a lineout guy like Croft at 6...though i still far prefer Wood.

Garvey and Attwood are first choicers though. Matthews needs to be first choice at Quins to challenge. But he looks promising.

The issue with Garvey is that he's playing a lot at 6. If the rumours are true that he's going to Bath, then he'll play even more there as with Attwood, Caldwell, Day and Hooper they don't need another lock. I would prefer to see him play as the enforcer lock and feel his international aspirations would be better served playing there too. Perhaps he should think about joining a side that needs a lock...

Matthews will supplant Garvey and Attwood in the england pecking order, I fear we'll have to wait until he's picked though to see a big unit at lock. Perhaps we'll try out a few other props before then and get someone with a bit more nasty about him.

Can i also bang the drum for Garvey please. Had a dip in form but for a big man who is fairly, hmm, one paced, he does manage a lot of tackles. In his better games he also hits plenty of rucks and carries all day. The more I see of him the more I think he'd struggle for now with the pace of the international game, but I think he might adapt if playing HC rugby regularly. We lack ball carriers and our scrum is now underpowered. We need to look at possible remedies and as much as I rate Parling and Launchbury, I think we might need a bigger presence there.

I'm not sure Matthews is there yet. He actually still looks like he has some filling out to do, he definitely doesn't look 19 stone and I don't think he yet carries with that level of weight either.

Most of England's problems will self-right:

- There's not that much wrong with the pack other than Morgan and Vunipola were both injured. SL didn't pick Wood at 8 because he thought he was the long-term answer. This is the same pack which competed well with NZ and SA. Having a ball-carrying 8 is key to the balance of this pack, and they were both injured. Also the 6 day turn-around and Launchbury possibly not being fully fit didn't help. The pack will get stronger and stronger over the next couple of years.
- The back 3: It's obvious SL rates Wade and May, but May was injured for 6 months, and Wade is definitely still learning. They'll both tour in the summer, and with Yarde, and soon Nowell and Watson, will be the wingers this time next year.

The key thing that won't self-right unless SL does something is the centres, and in particular Brad Barritt. His attacking weaknesses mean England will have a consistently convincing attack whilst he is selected. Fine he's a good defender - so is Twelvetrees, and Billy's first instinct isn't to run into his opposite number. Ultimately if you can't score tries then sides will work you out.

As for Garvey, he does look too big to me I can't see why people think he can suddenly step up to international level where the pace is beyond anything in the AP when he isn't even a regular lock at a struggling AP side at the moment. It's similar to last season when people were calling for Attwood to be called up when he wasn't being picked for Bath.

If Garvey moves and develops then great, but at present it seems very unlikely he'd be picked for England.

And England have complained about Steve Walsh's performance. Having reviewed the tapes they have a number of concerns about scrum and breakdown decisions.

Sounds like sour grapes to me and frankly it sickens me when we behave this way. We should man up and get over it. We lost, stop trying to point the fingers at others and accept out failings.

Walsh had a great game and for once stopped us diving into the ruck off our feet and killing the contest.

DaveM wrote:And England have complained about Steve Walsh's performance. Having reviewed the tapes they have a number of concerns about scrum and breakdown decisions.

do you have more details...I am an ardent welsh fan but even i called 3 scrums for england walsh gave welsh penalty....he also reffed last years game and seemed much more equitable, wonder if big occassion got to him a bit

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2013/03/19/graham-rowntree-questions-referee-and-backs-england-stars-for-lions-91466-33021840/

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2013/03/19/forwards-coach-graham-rowntree-tips-large-english-contingent-for-lions-91466-33021840/2/

Bit unnecessary really. Even if they have concerns, they could just raise them quietly.

Risca Rev wrote:http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2013/03/19/graham-rowntree-questions-referee-and-backs-england-stars-for-lions-91466-33021840/

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2013/03/19/forwards-coach-graham-rowntree-tips-large-english-contingent-for-lions-91466-33021840/2/

Bit unnecessary really. Even if they have concerns, they could just raise them quietly.

Smacks of poor sportmanship and to attach it to comments about the Lions is poor show by him and i hope he doesn't policitise Lions selection anymore...while he is at it maybe they should look at the tuilagi try v when billy kicked the ball to him!

Lancaster has made a classic excuse regarding the difference in the number of caps between the two teams.

Just two points about this very lame excuse:

1. With the exception of Corbisiero at 1 and Morgan at 8, it was the same starting team for Eng that heavily beat NZ in Nov.

2. If it were simply just the number of caps, hey presto, Lancaster could have chosen more experienced players to start instead, such as Hartley, Flood, Haskell ...

Everybody loses a game. That was a very heavy loss. Coaches should just accept it and move on.

Matt Garvey & Ed Slater in the AP

14 Matches 11
0 Tries 2
0 Try assist 0
93 Carries 38
82 Metres carried 100
0 Clean breaks 2
3 Offloads 2
9 Defenders beaten 8
107 Tackles 70
12 Missed tackles 7
14 Penalties conceded 5
7 Turnovers conceded 4
13 Line outs won own throw 11
1 Lineout steals 1

Slater can't be a proper lock. Locks don't score 2 tries in 11 games and make 100m's in 38 carries. Bloody show boater!

Latest - good omen I hope- on Jonny May
Aviva Premiership Rugby Player of the MonthJonny came back with a bang - after a long injury absence - and into the Aviva Premiership spotlight winning the award after a stunning month."Jonny reminds me of Roadrunner - Beep beep," said Aviva ambassador and World Cup winner Will Greenwood.
"He has genuine foot speed that I could only dream of, and keeps working hard to develop other areas of his game."
Greenwood believes May has also won the praises of the coach who took England to that famous World Cup win 10 years ago.
"Clive Woodward can't stop raving about the lad which is a pretty good endorsement," Greenwood added. "I always enjoy watching him play, he makes things happen."
May's success follows an impressive month, which saw him return from almost five months out with injury, to score two tries and force a penalty try that saw Gloucester Rugby complete a stunning late win at home against Worcester Warriors. May won the award from an impressive shortlist that contained Bath Rugby's Peter Stringer, Exeter Chiefs outside-half Gareth Steenson, Saracens flanker Will Fraser and London Wasps' flyer Christian Wade.

yappysnap wrote:Slater can't be a proper lock. Locks don't score 2 tries in 11 games and make 100m's in 38 carries. Bloody show boater!

I think one of those carries was that 50m run and try he scored against Sale, so that may skew his stats a bit!

Bathman_in_London wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Slater can't be a proper lock. Locks don't score 2 tries in 11 games and make 100m's in 38 carries. Bloody show boater!

I think one of those carries was that 50m run and try he scored against Sale, so that may skew his stats a bit!

Was thinking the same thing! Still, good stats though

Ospreydragon wrote:
Everybody loses a game. That was a very heavy loss. Coaches should just accept it and move on.

No you dont accept it and move on you sit down and forensically examine it to work out what worked what didnt work and try to get some ideas sorted to make sure it doesnt happen again.

As a rule you learn more from failures than successes - but you only do that if you sit down and actually learn. If part of the process is working out how to make sure Mr. Walsh never has anything to do with an England game again then so be it

Losses happen

I agree being so public about the Walsh inquiry is poor form but that referee performance needs looking at to make sure he doesn't make the same mistakes in future

Ospreydragon wrote:Lancaster has made a classic excuse regarding the difference in the number of caps between the two teams.

Just two points about this very lame excuse:

1. With the exception of Corbisiero at 1 and Morgan at 8, it was the same starting team for Eng that heavily beat NZ in Nov.

2. If it were simply just the number of caps, hey presto, Lancaster could have chosen more experienced players to start instead, such as Hartley, Flood, Haskell ...

Everybody loses a game. That was a very heavy loss. Coaches should just accept it and move on.

Ospreydragon

1. Lancaster hasnt used lack of caps as an excuse for losing. He's looking to the future and to take lessons from this bad loss.

2. Experience is helpful. More so in the bigger games. That is so obvious as to be laughable. Come on man!

3. You play your best team. If they lack experience the only way to get it is by playing.

lostinwales wrote:

Ospreydragon wrote:
Everybody loses a game. That was a very heavy loss. Coaches should just accept it and move on.

No you dont accept it and move on you sit down and forensically examine it to work out what worked what didnt work and try to get some ideas sorted to make sure it doesnt happen again.

As a rule you learn more from failures than successes - but you only do that if you sit down and actually learn. If part of the process is working out how to make sure Mr. Walsh never has anything to do with an England game again then so be it

Losses happen

Correct. I believe the public nature of this might help to prevent us ever having Walsh again. This might be deliberate. Good.

screamingaddabs wrote:Just one point with Goode - He managed on a number of occasions this six nations to beat, or at least half beat the first man and get his arms free to pass but had no one to pass to. Ashton, on form, would have been there and a nice move would have started.

I would actually drop both players at the moment (for different reasons) but I just thought I'd bring this up as no one else seems to have mentioned it.

I said the same about Flood after the Italy game. There has been naff all attempt by the players to run supporting lines. If there was someone there even half the time the opportunity was on we'd have had an awful lot more linebreaks and probably would have got a lot more points on the board.

flood just runs on his own anyway..

OF has vision. he just needs back up around to give him time and space

Just read the above post on walesonline and their reporter states that Wales collapsed the scrum on 6 occasions and England were penalised forit. This speaks volumes for Walsh's credentials as a ref.