My Lions View.

Ok so with the dust settling on the 6 Nations, I've been thinking a lot about the Lions and who should and shouldn't go. I initially selected a 37 man squad, but then after discussion elsewhere have added one player, that player being Joe Launchbury covering the second and back rows, and swapped one for one, with Richie Gray going out, and Nathan Hines coming in.

1. Cian Healy, Gethin Jenkins, Ryan Grant
2. Richard Hibbard, Rory Best, Dylan Hartley
3. Adam Jones, Dan Cole, Euan Murray
4. Jim Hamilton, Nathan Hines, Joe Launchbury
5. Geoff Parling, Ian Evans
6. Tom Wood, Chris Robshaw, Kelly Brown
7. Sam Warburton, Justin Tipuric
8. Johnnie Beattie, Toby Faletau

9. Mike Phillips, Conor Murray, Ben Youngs
10. Johnny Sexton, Owen Farrell, Dan Biggar

11. George North, Craig Gilroy
12. Jamie Roberts, Matt Scott
13. Manu Tuilagi, Brian O'Driscoll
14. Christian Wade, Sean Maitland
15. Stuart Hogg, Leigh Halfpenny, Rob Kearney

That's 38 players, broke down by nationality as follows.

Wales 12
England 10
Scotland 9
Ireland 7


The breakdown of players by nationality actually surprised me, as I thought I would select mainly English and Welsh, but the split is pretty even. It is however in direct correlation to the countries finishing positions in the 6 Nations. This was not planned, it has just turned out that way. I think we have an issue on the wing, where I didn't want to pick Maitland as I would prefer not to select brought in from other nations players. I've also gone for Wade as a bolter, as on hard ground out there he could be a real weapon for us.

I would imagine that there will be eyebrows raised about some omissions, namely Alun Wyn Jones, Jonathan Davies and Alex Cuthbert. For me Alun Wyn Jones flatters to decieve. I've seen him have the odd fantastic game, but I've also seen him look distinctly average too many times, and I don't think he is a better option at 4 than any of the players I've selected. Jonathan Davies I am a big fan of, but I don't think he's been at his best this 6 Nations, and he is in a very competitive position, so narrowly misses out. And Alex Cuthbert, for all of his undoubted attacking threat, appears to me to be able to be got at defensively by a quality opponent. I know people will point to Wade not being a top class defender, but I wanted that something different in the squad, and I think on the hard grounds out there he could be a fantastic weapon of the bench.

So that's me. Thoughts? Criticisms? Who would you select and why?

Although injured, if Corbisiero and Morgan can prove their fitness, they'll definitely travel and may even start as the squad at LH and 8 is a bit weak. Apart from that, looks reasonable.

AW Jones was very disappointing in the last lions tour and one good game doesn't mean a player is doing well... especially when thinking that he was playing with a dominant front row and against a very lightweight front five and a team with the poorest lineout conversion rate in the 6N campaign.

Still I think he's a good player and should travel. He will be in the mix come test time but I wouldn't give him the captaincy as the position is too tight for places and his leadership and previous big game temperament is questionable at this moment in time.

I also think that one wing if back to fitness needs to travel who you haven't mentioned. Simon Zebo.... he has the talent to disrupt AUS and has a real calm head on his shoulders.

AWC&3F's

I would be very surprised to see Corbisiero pull on a shirt again this season. Out of interest, who from the squad I selected would you leave out to accomodate him and Morgan?

Same question to fa0019, who would you leave out to accomodate AWJ and Zebo?

I'd leave out Wade.... similar players but Zebo is more polished and defensively he's sound also.

In terms of Jones I'd probably leave out Hines. Haven't seen him this season. He's not playing test rugby at the moment although I've been told he's going well.

In the backs As, you have one spare man between 11 and 15 to compensate for injury,sickness etc..

Is that enough?

Ozzie


Cuthbert is out with injury?
No Richie Grey?
Is O 'Driscoll still up to a Lions tour?
No Croft?

I don't understand Hartley because he's not even his countries first choice hooker, also leaving out cuthbert for wade or even Maitland is shocking apart from the Ireland game Cuthbert has been solid in defence no other tries scored down his wing also top try scorer. And you also said you didn't want pick players who have been brought in from other countries but Manu Tuilagi came to England at the age of 9 or something, Hartley isn't he from new Zealand, Ian Evans south africa, Toby faletau god knows where he's from and im sure I heard on rugby club that Nathan Hines is from Australia, so not wanting to pick Maitland because he's only just come over from new Zealand is a Poopie excuse, he plays for Scotland get over it same for the other players I named

I think Wood can play the Tom Croft roll well and is decent in the lineout... although with Croft you can almost choose 2 bruisers at lock given his proficiency at the lineout. Its a tough call but he was very good in the last tour and his reputation in SA is held highly.

the BOD question is a massive one.

Will he want to tour if not in the test team?
Is his body up for the 6-7 games required in the series any test player will be expected to play?

Very similar to the Will Carling situation in 97.... in many ways whilst McGeechan has had a go at Carling... I think Carling did the lions and McGeechan a favour by turning down an offer to tour.

welshboii15

In 1997 Will Greenwood was chosen by McGeechan even though he hadn't been capped yet and left out England captain Phil De Glanville who the current coach Jack Rowell preferred.

Different coaches will have their own opinions on players... just because a player is first choice with one coach doesn't mean he will be first choice to another. I myself think Hartley is a better all-round player to Youngs.... mainly because his basics are sound if nothing else.

Ozzy3213 wrote:AWC&3F's

I would be very surprised to see Corbisiero pull on a shirt again this season. Out of interest, who from the squad I selected would you leave out to accomodate him and Morgan?

Same question to fa0019, who would you leave out to accomodate AWJ and Zebo?

I'd leave out Jenkins (can't even beg a start ahead of Sheridan at Toulon) and Felatou (not as strong a carrier as Morgan).

Really I hadn't heard that. Has he had problems in rehab?

welshboii15 wrote:I don't understand Hartley because he's not even his countries first choice hooker, also leaving out cuthbert for wade or even Maitland is shocking apart from the Ireland game Cuthbert has been solid in defence no other tries scored down his wing also top try scorer. And you also said you didn't want pick players who have been brought in from other countries but Manu Tuilagi came to England at the age of 9 or something, Hartley isn't he from new Zealand, Ian Evans south africa, Toby faletau god knows where he's from and im sure I heard on rugby club that Nathan Hines is from Australia, so not wanting to pick Maitland because he's only just come over from new Zealand is a Poopie excuse, he plays for Scotland get over it same for the other players I named

Any need for the get over it comment and semi abusive nature of your response?

Hartley for me is a better hooker than Youngs. Youngs basics are not good enough at present, and if I were selecting an England side Hartley would start. In relation to my comment about Maitland, the difference with him is he, like Waldrom for England are New Zealanders who came through their system, played Super Rugby in the hope of becoming an All Black, and when that failed have come over and got capped for countries that actually they appear not to have a great alliegance to. The majority of other players you mention arrived in the countries that they now represent as children, and grew up there.

Maitland for me is similar to Riki Flutey, who I was disappointed to see where a Lions jersey.

Ozzy3213

I have to agree.... there just wasn't something right about Flutey in a lions jersey even though by form, quality and qualification he deserved his place.

At least Maitland has ancestry but still you are right in that he has been honest in saying he only went to Scotland because he realised the ABs jersey would never come his way... he would have got into any other test side though.. he was awesome in SR.

Donnacha Ryan in for Hines: Ryan quietly had a good 6 nations while carrying a shoulder injury. I've seen very little of Hines this season but he is 36 and hasn't been playing test rugby.
Sean O'Brien in for Tom Wood: Wood has been getting away on hype for one match he played in the autumn and has barely shown up since. O'Brien is the best ball carrier available but has been playing for a woeful Irish team who have no idea how to gameplan and use him properly.
Alex Cuthbert in for Christian Wade: Obvious reasons really.
Possibly AWJ in for Parling, though I think both are overrated. AWJ was shown up as too lightweight last time around but against Australia it would be less of an issue.
Maitland would need to play very well to get a spot, Zebo is more likely right now.
Anyone in for Matt Scott, even if 12 is a weak position. Luke Marshall played well for his first caps, and Jonathan Davies can more than do a job there too.

Bowe, O'Connell and Lydiate would surely demand spots if they came back strongly from injury.

Ok I was a little harsh im sorry.
But Maitland has more of a right to play for Scotland than all the ones a named because his family member is scotish so that gives more right to the Scotland/Lions top than any of the ones, im sure if hertley could get in the new Zealand team then he'd also tern his back on England same for Evans

fa0019 wrote:welshboii15

In 1997 Will Greenwood was chosen by McGeechan even though he hadn't been capped yet and left out England captain Phil De Glanville who the current coach Jack Rowell preferred.

Different coaches will have their own opinions on players... just because a player is first choice with one coach doesn't mean he will be first choice to another. I myself think Hartley is a better all-round player to Youngs.... mainly because his basics are sound if nothing else.

Completely agree here, which is why I think that some Welsh boys may get the nod, i.e. through Gatland's familiarity with them. Better the devil you know, and all that. If he's deciding between Hibbard or Hartley, for example, Hibbard may get the nod for your above mentioned reasons IMO.

On Cuthbert, I think he gets treated harshly by fans for his defense. A few people mentioned it on here and so everyone jumps on the bandwagon. The Ireland game, wasn't it just the Zebo try that was his 'fault'? That was a very well worked try. Even the All Blacks wingers concede tries! Yet they'd still get in people's world 15 teams. Cuthbert was part of a very good defensive line after the first 40 minutes against Ireland. We say that English players shouldn't be judged on one poor game against Wales, and I agree. By the same token I don't think Cuthbert's 4.5 good games should be forgotten for the sake of the 0.5 bad games in the tournament.

Biltong wrote:Ozzie


Cuthbert is out with injury?
No Richie Grey?
Is O 'Driscoll still up to a Lions tour?
No Croft?

I have my concerns over Cuthbert in defence, Grey I had in but then left out for Hines. BOD for me can cope with the tour, and Croft for me is overated.

Gatland is certainly in a tricky situation... if he choses his own players too much and the Lions lose then he will come under a lot of criticism but if he picks players over his own he may lose the dressing room.

Henry lost the dressing room for the very reason and was gone what within a year post the 01 series.

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:AWC&3F's

I would be very surprised to see Corbisiero pull on a shirt again this season. Out of interest, who from the squad I selected would you leave out to accomodate him and Morgan?

Same question to fa0019, who would you leave out to accomodate AWJ and Zebo?

I'd leave out Jenkins (can't even beg a start ahead of Sheridan at Toulon) and Felatou (not as strong a carrier as Morgan).

Really I hadn't heard that. Has he had problems in rehab?

I'm not 100% sure what his injury status is, but I don't think he is fit to play this week for sure. Also Brian Smith has said that he will primarily be using players that are staying between now and the end of the season, so even if fit, I'm not sure Corbs will get a game.

fa0019 wrote:Gatland is certainly in a tricky situation... if he choses his own players too much and the Lions lose then he will come under a lot of criticism but if he picks players over his own he may lose the dressing room.

Henry lost the dressing room for the very reason and was gone what within a year post the 01 series.

That's always the danger of picking a current head coach of one of the constituent sides of the Lions.

Like they said on rugby club think it was iver dean Ryan or jj Williams said that he would pick the majority of the welsh team but gatland will have to take less welsh players even if he thinks their the best because of politics and I agree, I don't care of it was 20 English, 10 Irish, 6 scotish 1 welsh or in any other order but isn't it about the best players going rather than who has the most players going

I agree welshboii, it should be about picking the best men to do the job. As I said in the OP, when I sat down to pick a squad, I thought I would end up picking mainly Welsh and English players off the back of Wales winning the 6 Nations and me being English, but when I looked at the players and who I would want it didn't turn out that way.

Ideally I would like to see a squad with a good balance of nationalities, but the reality is that it may not pan out like that. Regardless of who is selected I will be shouting my head off supporting the team.

There are many reasons why some players look more prominant then others.

I would argue that the Scotland 3/4s are the best attacking trio in the 6N.... they just don't have the platform to set their case.

Visser - been Rabo player of the year, top try scorer etc.
Maitland - top try scorer in SR, all-round better than Visser.
Hogg - great attacking fullback.. certainly better than any in home nations bar a on form Ben Foden.

Saying that any lions side should come primarly from 1 nation is simply arrogant.

In 2001 the Lions had England stratosphere's above everyone else.... it wasn't even close. Yet come the first test there were only 8 Englishman in that side (potentially more had Greenwood and Dillaglio been fit).

It would have been much more credible if the Lions for continuity purposes chose the ENG team in 01 then the Welsh team in 13.

Come the series I think we will see some surprises... some players who were nailed on test starters won't even make the 23 for a host of reasons.

Ozzy3213 wrote:I agree welshboii, it should be about picking the best men to do the job. As I said in the OP, when I sat down to pick a squad, I thought I would end up picking mainly Welsh and English players off the back of Wales winning the 6 Nations and me being English, but when I looked at the players and who I would want it didn't turn out that way.

Ideally I would like to see a squad with a good balance of nationalities, but the reality is that it may not pan out like that. Regardless of who is selected I will be shouting my head off supporting the team.

I always assumed you were an aussie due to the username.

I need to ask your reasoning behind a fe names on the list ozzy if you don't mind mate...

Firstly how do you feel about P. James of Bath. I like Grant but wouldn't there be an argument for him over Grant?

Hartley, how do you justify him over the likes of Owens, Ford or even Youngs?

Does Murray offer anything we havn't got in spades, wouldn't a wildcard TH be a bit more of an option?

Hamilton really? I'm not sure how good he's been, I picked him in my squad before the tourny started but he's been awfull at times, Hines and Evans offer more grunt with far more brains IMHO. AWJ has been injured and hasn't been great but he is far classier than Hamilton.

I actually quite like your back row options but there is a need for another carrier don't you think, maybe drop a lock for SOB or a 6 option for Heaslip?

No laidlaw really?

Surely in the backline places for JD2 and Cuthbert have to be found?

fa0019 wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:I agree welshboii, it should be about picking the best men to do the job. As I said in the OP, when I sat down to pick a squad, I thought I would end up picking mainly Welsh and English players off the back of Wales winning the 6 Nations and me being English, but when I looked at the players and who I would want it didn't turn out that way.

Ideally I would like to see a squad with a good balance of nationalities, but the reality is that it may not pan out like that. Regardless of who is selected I will be shouting my head off supporting the team.

I always assumed you were an aussie due to the username.

No mate, am a curious mix of English, Irish and Indian actually (could play sport for any of those nations under the grandparents rule).

And I know what ever happens no one is going truely be happy about the ratio of the team but the thing is with a few minor changes I believe all 4 nations are closer than they realise to beating the SH teams but this is the lions and IMO the lions are further away from beating them because they got get the jel of the team and the combinations right so I think having a strong amount of one nation is the best thing to do well at least the spine of the team should be one team

I am torn between wanting deserved representation by Welsh players and the best interest of the Welsh team development.
Since the chances of the Lions being victorious are slim is it really worth flogging them in a lost cause.They would be better off resting their battered frames to launch a much improved Autumn series.
I hope that folk like Lydiate can fully recover over the summer and come back at 100%.
On the flip side the chances of going on a Lions tour are limited and I would want all deserving Welsh lads to go.Losing one 6N's game in two years shows the dominance that this group of players have over the other countries players and Gatland's selection will reflect this.
I hope that the Lions and Wales are bound for glory.

I can see the argument around selecting a front row from 1 nation, and maybe an 8,9,10 combination from 1 nation and a centre paring from the same nation, just to give some continuity in the team. Also maybe lineout caller and hooker.

From the squad I selected, I would start the Welsh front row as a unit, but couldn't hand on heart say that I would go with an 8,19,10 combo from one nation. From the squad I selected, if the first test was tomorrow I would send out...

15. Hogg (Scotland)
14. Halfpenny (Wales)
13. Tuilagi (England)
12. Roberts (Wales)
11. North (Wales)
10. Farrell (England)
9. Phillips (Wales)

1. Jenkins (Wales)
2. Hibbard (Wales)
3. Jones (Wales)
4. Hines (Scotland)
5. Hamilton (Scotland)
6. Wood (England)
7. Tipuric (Wales)
8. Beattie (Scotland)

So 8 Welshmen, 4 Scots and 3 Englishmen. Would that be right having no Irishman in there? I know as an Englishman I would be very disappointment to see a side with no England player in it, but I like to think that I would still get behind the team nonetheless.

Thing is Wales are like touring Japan, so its the ideal chance for Beck, Craig Mitchell, Gill, Patchell, Scott Williams, harry Robinson and lydiate to prove their worth to Wales and hook to prove fitness get some confidence for the autumn and the players going on the lions will iver come back injured or flying high with conference so things can be on the up

15. Halfpenny
14. Cuthbert
13. Tuilagi (England)
12. BOD (Ireland)
11. North (Wales)
10. Sexton (England)
9. Youngs (England)

1. Healey (Ireland)
2. Hibbard (Wales)
3. Jones (Wales)
4. Hines (Scotland)
5. Evans (Wales)
6. Wood (England)
7. Tipuric (Wales)
8. Faletau (Wales)

1. Cian Healy, Gethin Jenkins, Ryan Grant
2. Richard Hibbard, Rory Best, Dylan Hartley
3. Adam Jones, Dan Cole, Mike Ross
4. Jim Hamilton, Richie Gray,
5. Geoff Parling, Ian Evans
6. Tom Wood, Chris Robshaw, Sean O'Brien
7. Sam Warburton, Justin Tipuric
8. Johnnie Beattie, Toby Faletau

9. Mike Phillips, Greg laidlaw, Ben Youngs
10. Johnny Sexton, Owen Farrell

11. George North, Craig Gilroy
12. Jamie Roberts, Matt Scott
13. Manu Tuilagi, Brian O'Driscoll
14. Alex cuthbert, Sean Maitland
15. Stuart Hogg, Leigh Halfpenny, Mike Brown

Two more notable omissions; Ryan Jones in for Joe Launchbury. Jonathan Davies for Dan Biggar. Jones has been a brilliant player and leader and deserves to go, even though JL has also been very good. Roberts and JD2 are the most settled midfield so I would expect both to go but not to start at 12 and 13 against Australia. Laidlaw to be the extra fly-half.

fa0019 wrote:Hogg - great attacking fullback.. certainly better than any in home nations bar a on form Ben Foden.

I'd argue Lee Byrne, though having spent time away from test rugby is still a better full back than Foden and Hogg.

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:AWC&3F's

I would be very surprised to see Corbisiero pull on a shirt again this season. Out of interest, who from the squad I selected would you leave out to accomodate him and Morgan?

Same question to fa0019, who would you leave out to accomodate AWJ and Zebo?

I'd leave out Jenkins (can't even beg a start ahead of Sheridan at Toulon) and Felatou (not as strong a carrier as Morgan).

Really I hadn't heard that. Has he had problems in rehab?

Leave out Faletau and Jenkins? Really? I don't see how Faletau isn't as good a carrier. He's also a lot fitter than Morgan.

Jenkins had a great tournament after the Ireland game. No reason to leave him out.

mikey_phil

All very fair shouts there mate. I did consider Laidlaw as a 9/10 option, but just felt I wanted a third out and out 10 rather than a part timer there.

I think Faletau is streets ahead of Morgan and far more powerful

O'Brien is streets ahead of both Morgan and Faletau.

Who's O'Brien?

gleesonisgod wrote:O'Brien is streets ahead of both Morgan and Faletau.

Yeah obviously.

RubyGuby wrote:Who's O'Brien?

The guy on Lydiate's bedroom wall

I think he will look for pace and handling skills over grunt and grind, especially in the forwards. For that reason I think the likes of Launchbury and Croft stand a better chance than they might otherwise. For the record, I would take Launchbury but not Croft, he hasn't proved himself yet after injury and went missing on Saturday.

I'm not sure about needing combinations any more as players are used to playing with so many different players these days. An international front row player will have 5 international colleagues on a match day (same at club level) and plenty of others he has to be able to play alongside in the event of injuries, squad rotation etc.

O'Driscoll and Roberts seemed to manage ok on the last tour despite little time to prepare. How often had that Welsh back row played together before Saturday - didn't seem to do them too much harm.

As for Cuthbert, I would be amazed if he didn't get in. Probably the form winger of the tournament (4 tries was more than his fair share) and his defence isn't as bad as people make out.

Think Youngs has a great chance of starting given his previous form against the Aussies and I think there will be a couple of players in there who can cover at least a couple of position to provide a stronger squad and bench options (think Lawes may well get on the plane even if he doesn't deserve too).

RubyGuby wrote:I think Faletau is streets ahead of Morgan and far more powerful

No, Faletau plays as a second 6 but is definitely not as complete an 8 as Morgan, although, yes I agree, Morgan needs to work on his fitness. And has O'Brien ever played at 8?

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:I think Faletau is streets ahead of Morgan and far more powerful

No, Faletau plays as a second 6 but is definitely not as complete an 8 as Morgan, although, yes I agree, Morgan needs to work on his fitness. And has O'Brien ever played at 8?

Ye and it suits him much better.

gleesonisgod wrote:O'Brien is streets ahead of both Morgan and Faletau.

Oh yeah, O'Brien, that player who has never outplayed the current Welsh backrow, is streets ahead of Faletau.

gleesonisgod wrote:

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:I think Faletau is streets ahead of Morgan and far more powerful

No, Faletau plays as a second 6 but is definitely not as complete an 8 as Morgan, although, yes I agree, Morgan needs to work on his fitness. And has O'Brien ever played at 8?

Ye and it suits him much better.

Yeah I can see him being a good 8. Has he ever played at 8 in green. If not, why not?

rodders wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Who's O'Brien?

The guy on Lydiate's bedroom wall

Like it Nice one Rodders

RubyGuby wrote:

rodders wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Who's O'Brien?

The guy on Lydiate's bedroom wall

Like it Nice one Rodders

IronMike wrote:

gleesonisgod wrote:O'Brien is streets ahead of both Morgan and Faletau.

Oh yeah, O'Brien, that player who has never outplayed the current Welsh backrow, is streets ahead of Faletau.

Maybe you missed the 1st match of the 6 nations. And I don't really think he's streets ahead just that the person who i quoted said faletau's streets ahead of morgan so i was just carrying it on. I would rate Faletau as next best after SOB.

LH: Healy, Jenkins, Grant
H: Owens, Best, Hibbard
TH: Jones, Cole, Murray
SR: POC, Grey
SR: AWJ, Parling
BF: SOB, Robshaw
OF: Tipric, Warburton
8: Morgan, Faletau
utility forward: Jones
SH: Phillips, Youngs, Care
FH: Sexton, Farrell, Bigger
LW: North, Maitland
IC: twelvetrees, Roberts
OC: BOD, JD2, Jonthan Joseph
RW: Cuthbert, Bowe
FB: Halfpenny, Hogg
16 Welsh, 6 Irish, 9 English, 5 Scotish
36 man square

The reasons for not picking Laidlaw is because he kicks to much and with the back like of the Aus being amazing that's what they want. i chose Jones over Wood because Jones covers more. I don't think Tuilagi is skill full enough to play Aus so I thought someone like Joseph is skill full so goes for me. Bowe is world class and has to go and POC is the best second row im NH

Starting team
LH: Healy
H: Hibbard
TH: Jones
SR: POC
SR: AWJ
BF: SOB
OF: Warburton (C)
8: Faletau
SH: Youngs
FH: Sexton
LW: North
IC: Roberts/Twelvetrees
OC: BOD/JD2
RW: Bowe
FB: Halfpenny

Really don't see what the deal with Roberts is. It seems all he dose is run into people, a poor man's Tuilagi if you ask me.