Why does Broner get in the Top 10 P4P yet Ricky Burns doesn't???

by Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn Tue 26 Mar 2013, 4:45 pm

After seeing the announcent that Burns is to face his Mandatory on 11th May, I seen some p4p rankings and Broner is in the top 10 of most peoples now.

But looking at Burns' and Broners championship fights, why does Broner get threw in so highly when his opponents are on the same sort of level as Burns' and you could add that Burns has looked just as impressive in defeating his as Broner has also. Not knocking them out, but really dominating throughout 12 rounds.

Broners Championship fights:

Vincent Rodriguez - for the WBO belt at SFW

(defences) - Eloy Perez, Vincento Escabedo

Antonio DeMarco - for the WBC belt at Lightweight

(defences) - Gavin Rees

Ricky Burns' Championship Fights:

Roman Martinez - for the WBO belt at SFW

(defences) - Andreas Evensen, Joseph Laryea, Nicky Cook

Michael Katsidas - for arguement sake lets say WBO lightweight belt, even though it was intrim to begin with.

(defenses) - Paulus Moses & Kevin Mitchell

Now, both guys are the same 2 division champs, both fought equally limited standard (Martinez for me is Broner's DeMarco).

So is Broners P4P ranking purely to do with his Floyd impression, as Burns seems to have done almost identical to Broner in Championship terms, so why doesn't Burns get recognised p4p wise as Broner does?

Looking forward to your views lads.

Cheers

Dee

by Guest Tue 26 Mar 2013, 4:59 pm

I think people are basing it on his style of fighting & what he could potentially do ie a multi weight champ along the lines of Floyd & Manny. With regards to him being rated higher than Burns then I think his power probably is the answer plus some people felt Burns ducked him by going up in weight.

by Rowley Tue 26 Mar 2013, 5:03 pm

When you put it like that reborn it is a reasonable enough question because whilst you can quibble over whose opposition is better as you have alluded to on paper there really isn’t much to split them and certainly not enough to justify the gulf in their respective rankings.

If you tried to explain it guess the best you could come up with is Broner is American and as most P4P lists are compiled over there, not really fair but such is life. Also whilst there is not much in it in opposition when you watch them there is the perception Adrian is the more gifted fighter, you would like to think P4P lists should be compiled solely on achievements and level of opposition you do get the feeling talent and potential tend to be considered rightly or wrongly.

Interesting question though reborn and it is a reasonable point.

by Diamond in the rough Tue 26 Mar 2013, 5:08 pm

As Guerrero has went through the weights I've always thought he should've been on it especially after berto, as for broner I think he just looks a level above when he fights compared to burns and I would pick broner to beat burns

by **88Chris05** Tue 26 Mar 2013, 5:09 pm

I think skill set plays a part, and let's not forget that this was originally the whole reason behind the 'pound for pound' concept. Broner's got a bit of everything and, to me, is one of the very best fighters out there.

In terms of pure records, then you're right, there's not a lot in it. But you yourself have said that Martinez is to Burns what De Marco is to Broner. Well, Burns won a competitive, pretty evenly-contested fight against Martinez, whereas Broner absolutely ran De Marco out of town.

I can see where you're coming from, and there isn't a huge distance between them, but Broner definitely deserves to rank higher than Burns right now, for me.

by TopHat24/7 Tue 26 Mar 2013, 5:23 pm

He didn't get in mine, because 'potential' doesn't warrant a place when it isn't backed up by record.

by TopHat24/7 Tue 26 Mar 2013, 5:24 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:Top 6 I’m fairly happy with.

1. Mayweather Jr
2. Ward
3. Donaire
4. Martinez
5. Marquez
6. Wlad K

Next 4 much harder. If Froch beats Kessler he jumps to 7, but without that:

7. Pac
8. Dawson
9. Froch
10. Mares

Bradley, D Garcia, M Garcia, Broner, Gamboa and Guererro battle it out for spots 11-16.

by WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs Tue 26 Mar 2013, 5:29 pm

I said on the other thread that Broner doesnt warrant a place in the top 10, but i think he should be rated higher than Burns.

Demarco is better than aynthing on burns record and that performance was better than any of ricky's. Katsidis was a shell, mitchell had been exposed at world level in 3 against kats and hadnt showm hes better than rees. Martinez was solid but he isnt anything pecial

by manos de piedra Tue 26 Mar 2013, 5:33 pm

People think he is a much better fighter than Burns I guess.

by Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn Tue 26 Mar 2013, 5:36 pm

I think DeMarco gets too much credit. The Linares win being the only stand out win and Linares has been really found wanting at championship level.

SO I dont think the DeMarco win can really be used as a measuring stick when comparing opponents with Burns

by Guest Tue 26 Mar 2013, 5:37 pm

Crazy idea but hear me out...why don't Broner and Burns fight each other?

It may put and end to a lot of this stuff.

by **ShahenshahG** Tue 26 Mar 2013, 5:38 pm

Burns legged it Laugh

by Guest Tue 26 Mar 2013, 5:40 pm

In which case, Broner ranks higher due to the "cowardice" clause (see Vitali ducks Haye" for clarification of how it all works)

by Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn Tue 26 Mar 2013, 6:42 pm

Well Broner legged it from Guerrero if my mind serves me right and Guerrero isn't on most peoples P4P lists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PKsC2q8Db4

Could barely even look Robert in the eye lol

So Broner's cowardice should be noted also

by Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn Tue 26 Mar 2013, 6:45 pm

Broner actually looks like hes gonna start cryin as hes led away

by AlexHuckerby Tue 26 Mar 2013, 8:11 pm

Broner is a fantastic talent and has announced himself as a world class fighter, Burns is along the same lines but not quite the same fantastic talent. For me, Broner isn't Top ten P4P material, hasn't fought enough good fighters, I can't have him above the likes of Froch who's a maybe, so there's NO WAY I can have him in my Top 10. Great talent, needs to fight the top, TOP guys, to get in there, though. DeMarco is a good start but that win alone won't see you into a Top 10 P4P when the competition around is as high as it is, talent doesn't get you in there either, big wins, big names and he can solidfy it. Not done that yet. Though, I believe he will do that, whereas I don't believe Burns will.

Broner will be a top ten star at one point and if he keeps progressing the way he is, it'll be a top 3 or even the main man. But my view is he should take on the best guys at 140, then move up to 147, that is what I nwould love to see from Borner, the likes of Garcia, Matthysse, Khan, Peterson and what not are great names for his resume and all prove to be different styles and will teach him enough to be the main man in the future. Sadly, I don't think that will happen, he will end up fighting nearly men and then walking himself into the major fights.

by Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn Tue 26 Mar 2013, 8:36 pm

AlexHuckerby wrote:Broner is a fantastic talent and has announced himself as a world class fighter, Burns is along the same lines but not quite the same fantastic talent. For me, Broner isn't Top ten P4P material, hasn't fought enough good fighters, I can't have him above the likes of Froch who's a maybe, so there's NO WAY I can have him in my Top 10. Great talent, needs to fight the top, TOP guys, to get in there, though. DeMarco is a good start but that win alone won't see you into a Top 10 P4P when the competition around is as high as it is, talent doesn't get you in there either, big wins, big names and he can solidfy it. Not done that yet. Though, I believe he will do that, whereas I don't believe Burns will.

Broner will be a top ten star at one point and if he keeps progressing the way he is, it'll be a top 3 or even the main man. But my view is he should take on the best guys at 140, then move up to 147, that is what I nwould love to see from Borner, the likes of Garcia, Matthysse, Khan, Peterson and what not are great names for his resume and all prove to be different styles and will teach him enough to be the main man in the future. Sadly, I don't think that will happen, he will end up fighting nearly men and then walking himself into the major fights.

Yea, well IMO he has dodged probably the hottest division in the sport to fight Paulie which is a disgrace to say the least. His record at this time is about even with Burns and I think its unfair to beat Burns with the "ducker" stick. Burns was the world champ at super feather so Broner should have came to win the belt, but instead there was silly talk trying to get him over to the states when at that time Broner was as unknown as Burns so it wouldnt have made a blind bit of difference.

I don't think either of them wanted it to be honest, and at this point I dont think Broner is wanting any part of a top operater at this moment. He seems to be cherry picking like Mayweather does now. The only difference is Mayweather is at a point in his careers where he has fought champions and elite fighters so can really pick what he wants as he has nothing to prove, where as, Broner seems to think hes at that level already without having done much up to now except beat very limited fighters.

Since the Ponce De Leon fight his opponents have been very well selected to make him look good. Now hes jumped away from a LOT of very hard hitters in 140 to a pillow fisted belt holder at 147.

by TopHat24/7 Tue 26 Mar 2013, 8:51 pm

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:Well Broner legged it from Guerrero if my mind serves me right and Guerrero isn't on most peoples P4P lists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PKsC2q8Db4

Could barely even look Robert in the eye lol

So Broner's cowardice should be noted also

More evidence of his lack of true enigmatic personality also.

by Guest Tue 26 Mar 2013, 8:57 pm

Predicated purely on current records then your point is spot on reborn but this is where p4p is odd because it's often a subjective list.

Which is where people then rate on style and that odd aspect of 'it factor' so Broner appears.

With the exception of Floyd is largely undisputed as the most talented guy.

by AlexHuckerby Tue 26 Mar 2013, 9:51 pm

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:
AlexHuckerby wrote:Broner is a fantastic talent and has announced himself as a world class fighter, Burns is along the same lines but not quite the same fantastic talent. For me, Broner isn't Top ten P4P material, hasn't fought enough good fighters, I can't have him above the likes of Froch who's a maybe, so there's NO WAY I can have him in my Top 10. Great talent, needs to fight the top, TOP guys, to get in there, though. DeMarco is a good start but that win alone won't see you into a Top 10 P4P when the competition around is as high as it is, talent doesn't get you in there either, big wins, big names and he can solidfy it. Not done that yet. Though, I believe he will do that, whereas I don't believe Burns will.

Broner will be a top ten star at one point and if he keeps progressing the way he is, it'll be a top 3 or even the main man. But my view is he should take on the best guys at 140, then move up to 147, that is what I nwould love to see from Borner, the likes of Garcia, Matthysse, Khan, Peterson and what not are great names for his resume and all prove to be different styles and will teach him enough to be the main man in the future. Sadly, I don't think that will happen, he will end up fighting nearly men and then walking himself into the major fights.

Yea, well IMO he has dodged probably the hottest division in the sport to fight Paulie which is a disgrace to say the least. His record at this time is about even with Burns and I think its unfair to beat Burns with the "ducker" stick. Burns was the world champ at super feather so Broner should have came to win the belt, but instead there was silly talk trying to get him over to the states when at that time Broner was as unknown as Burns so it wouldnt have made a blind bit of difference.

I don't think either of them wanted it to be honest, and at this point I dont think Broner is wanting any part of a top operater at this moment. He seems to be cherry picking like Mayweather does now. The only difference is Mayweather is at a point in his careers where he has fought champions and elite fighters so can really pick what he wants as he has nothing to prove, where as, Broner seems to think hes at that level already without having done much up to now except beat very limited fighters.

Since the Ponce De Leon fight his opponents have been very well selected to make him look good. Now hes jumped away from a LOT of very hard hitters in 140 to a pillow fisted belt holder at 147.

Yeah basically agree with that. Which one would the fans rather have seen, Broner take on the likes of Matthysse, Khan, Garcia etc. or moved up to touch the great 147 lber in Paulie. I just feel as though they will take no risks with him until the major major money spinners. Which is a massive shame because he would have been a great addition to the 140 lb weight division and would have built a genuine legacy with the fighters he could have faced there.

by **88Chris05** Tue 26 Mar 2013, 10:04 pm

How is Broner ducking the Light-Welters? Practically all of the names at 140 have fights lined up (Rios-Alvarado II, for instance, which was signed long before Broner announced he was going up to 147 to fight Paulie) and, in the case of Judah, Garcia, Matthysse and Peterson, not only do they have fights immediately on the horizon, but their schedules for 2013 are going to be dominated by Golden Boy's unification series, which looks to be set in stone.

No ducking going on at all, as far as I can see.

by azania Tue 26 Mar 2013, 10:16 pm

Broner gets marked up because he is clearly a cut above many in his weight. But his record suggests that he should not be in the P4P stakes whatsoever.

He would spark Burns with ease and cut through the LWW division with something to spare also. He is that good.

by AlexHuckerby Tue 26 Mar 2013, 10:54 pm

88Chris05 wrote:How is Broner ducking the Light-Welters? Practically all of the names at 140 have fights lined up (Rios-Alvarado II, for instance, which was signed long before Broner announced he was going up to 147 to fight Paulie) and, in the case of Judah, Garcia, Matthysse and Peterson, not only do they have fights immediately on the horizon, but their schedules for 2013 are going to be dominated by Golden Boy's unification series, which looks to be set in stone.

No ducking going on at all, as far as I can see.

Not saying he is ducking anyone, saying that him entering would have created him some form of a legacy.

by azania Tue 26 Mar 2013, 10:57 pm

Maybe he wasn't invited.

by **88Chris05** Tue 26 Mar 2013, 11:02 pm

Didn't point to you directly, Alex, but Reborn stated that Broner had 'dodged' the Light-Welters and you seemed to agree with the general jist of what he was saying, namely that Broner and / or his team weren't interested in fighting any of those guys for whatever reason. Just don't think there's any evidence to suggest anything of the sort right now as there currently are no viable names open to him at 140. To be honest, I applaud him going up to Welter in the meantime; at least he's mixing it up a bit because, aside from Burns who has a mandatory and then a likely unification with Vasquez on the horizon, who else is there for Broner to take on at 135 right now which would get people even remotely excited?

by Herman Jaeger Tue 26 Mar 2013, 11:12 pm

I'd like to have seen Broner move to light welter, make a statement in the press he'll be sticking around, wants to rule the division, no intention of moving to welterweight, wants the top dogs, wants to shut Rios' mouth etc.

As Alex said, there are a few real legacy building fights for him in that division. So he avoids the real tests and lands a megafight. The word fast tracking springs to mind. And it's typical, typical Goldenboy.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe he's desperate to get in there with Matthysse, Rios etc. And there's nothing he an do. So let's wait and see his next choice after Pauie.

by WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs Tue 26 Mar 2013, 11:21 pm

Tbh alot of the names at 140 are busy. Matthysse, Garcia, Peterson and Judah are part of a tourney atm, khan is rebuilding and the other fighters like Rios and Bradley etc are TopRank and there is no way Arum will work with Haymon and GB

If he doesn't move down eventually then maybe you can hold it against him but lets wait and see. If he does avoid 140 (which would be a shame) there are names like guerrero, maidana, lopez, brook/alexander, ortiz, berto etc that make good fight

by manos de piedra Wed 27 Mar 2013, 9:06 am

140 and 147 a pretty interchangeable in any case. In 6-12 months theres a good chance some of those names at 140lb will bump up to 147lbs. So I dont think Broner moving to 147 should should matter too much in terms of securing fights.

by jimdig Wed 27 Mar 2013, 9:25 am

It's down to skill set for me. I would never have wlad in my top 10. I think he's skilled for a heavy, but p4p, if you shrunk him down to say a middle weight, I just can't see him competing.

by Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn Wed 27 Mar 2013, 11:43 am

88Chris05 wrote:Didn't point to you directly, Alex, but Reborn stated that Broner had 'dodged' the Light-Welters and you seemed to agree with the general jist of what he was saying, namely that Broner and / or his team weren't interested in fighting any of those guys for whatever reason. Just don't think there's any evidence to suggest anything of the sort right now as there currently are no viable names open to him at 140. To be honest, I applaud him going up to Welter in the meantime; at least he's mixing it up a bit because, aside from Burns who has a mandatory and then a likely unification with Vasquez on the horizon, who else is there for Broner to take on at 135 right now which would get people even remotely excited?

Well tbh Chris Broner had already dispatched Rees and was touted as Paulies next opponent before all this 140 tournie carry on was discussed. So it seems like GoldenBoy are heavily protecting him right now as he could have been matched against any of the top 5. Nothing we havent seen before but the point is, the guy thinks he is top p4p material when he hasn't really done that much and you could argue that he isn't really that well known either, Tyson Fury and David Price have more fans than him on Twitter and they haven't even hit Euro level.

He needs a stand out fight to put him on the map in my opinion, this could be a testing fight (like Rios moving up to fight Alvarado at 140) but instead they have picked a fighter whos been beaten several times and couldn't punch a hole in a wet paper bag.

The last heavy handed fighter Broner faced he nearly got beat (DeLeon), I wouldn't have minded seeing him take on Maidana at 147. But he will just walk through Paulie who lets face it isnt going to trouble him.

by **88Chris05** Wed 27 Mar 2013, 11:57 am

True, the whole tournament hadn't been planned yet, but the initial fights between Matthysse / Peterson and Garcia / Judah were already lined up when Broner took care of Rees, as well as Alvarado / Rios.

Burns (at the time!) seemed to have a unification with Vasquez coming up, while outside of that the only other genuine Lightweight or Light-Welterweight options available were guys like Abril (terrible spectacle surely, and someone who brings no financial clout) and Shafikov (one of the better European champions in recent times, but not in Broner's class). All in all, a Welterweight experiment against Malignaggi (who I agree won't stand any chance of solving 'The Problem') to fill a gap in the meantime doesn't seem all that bad, to me.

I don't believe that Broner and his team are running scared of the big fights, personally. I think he'd leap at the chance of a Lightweight unification against either Burns or Vasquez, both of which would be perfectly legitimate fights (I mean, what ever happened to a fighter dominating and clearing out a division these days!?) and I'm confident that we'll see him in with some of the big guns at 140 in the future. If there's nary a sign of such a fight by this time next year, then I'll apologise!

by Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn Wed 27 Mar 2013, 12:15 pm

I dont think hes running scared either Chris, but I do think they are cherrypicking fights to move him to the top of the p4p lists.

Now thats fine, it happens all the time, but this carry on of throwing money down toilets and sitting with Mayweather throwin money all over the place as if he has earned his place at the top of the sport is ridiculous.

In the video I added yesterday when Guerrero confronted him, he looked well upset. I'd love to see more of the top 140 guys do that to him. Hes been getting an easy ride up to now and if he thinks he belongs at the top with Mayweather etc then he could at least fight at a level that Mayweather was at when he was Broners stage.

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