Lions Back Row

First topic message reminder :

I currently see Robshaw, Warburton and Tipuric leading the chase to the flank positions, with one of Heaslip/Faletau at number 8. If this was a three horse race for the flank positions which back row combination would you chose out of the following options?

Harsh not to include the likes of Wood, O'Brien or Lydiate. But this is my poll and you don't have to do it if you don't want to!

funnyExiledScot wrote:Pete - I know there have been lengthy debates surrounding SOBs best position, but the fact is he's been used most by his club and country at 7, whether that be his best position or not.

I see him personally as a 6 (thus my suggestion above), but I really don't think either he or Warburton are test match number 8's, particularly if you are pairing them with Tipuric at 7. In terms of international rugby, they've all played most of their rugby at 7.

In SOB's case though he hasn't played as a 7 he has worn that jersey in Blue and Green but he rarely has played that role apart from the NZ tour in the summer

Your missing my point, which was that the suggested backrow of SOB, Tipuric and Warburton isn't a balanced one.

It's extremely lightweight.

As I've said several times now, I personally think SOB is better at 6 with an out and out openside at 7, but if you do that I don't think you can get away with Warburton, an openside flanker, at number 8.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Your missing my point, which was that the suggested backrow of SOB, Tipuric and Warburton isn't a balanced one.

It's extremely lightweight.

As I've said several times now, I personally think SOB is better at 6 with an out and out openside at 7, but if you do that I don't think you can get away with Warburton, an openside flanker, at number 8.

+ Loads

Some silly suggestions going on with regard to playing players out of position to shoe horn them into the team.

8 has to be a natural 8, and only 1 open side can start.
I dont care how good Warburton, Tipuric and Robshaw are (Robshaw is no where the best 6) only one of them can start

Prefer other options really, but out of those, Robshaw, Tips, Faletau would be my call. SOB on the bench, unless Warburton continues his last good game of form then he might feature. Or Brown could feature. I am so glad I don't have to pick that backrow

I hope SOB gets some time in the warm up matches at 8 and maybe he can make a point

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I hope SOB gets some time in the warm up matches at 8 and maybe he can make a point

Were you suggesting SOB at 8, with Warburton at 6 and Tipuric at 7?

Still don't like it much. Has SOB played international rugby at 8 before? Why would you think he'd be a better 8 than Toby Falatau?

Not sure after one match in the position than Warburton is the best 6 we have either. There's no doubt he could do a job there though.

geoff998rugby wrote:
I dont care how good Warburton, Tipuric and Robshaw are (Robshaw is no where the best 6) only one of them can start

Warburton and Tupuric have been starting for Wales Geoff and have been extremely effective. Faletau at 8 gives you an athletic ball carrier and with plenty of big. powerful 3/4s around getting across the gainline shouldn't be an issue.

O'Brien on the bench gives an additional carrying option.

Sean O'Brien has played and won MOTM in the Heineken cup at 8 for Leinster. He might be better suited to 6 but he is still a very good 8.

rodders wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:
I dont care how good Warburton, Tipuric and Robshaw are (Robshaw is no where the best 6) only one of them can start

Warburton and Tupuric have been starting for Wales Geoff and have been extremely effective. Faletau at 8 gives you an athletic ball carrier and with plenty of big. powerful 3/4s around getting across the gainline shouldn't be an issue.

O'Brien on the bench gives an additional carrying option.

You mean they have started "once" for Wales, because both Dan Lydiate and Ryan Jones were injured. Not sure that commends them to be first choice duo for the Lions.

GunsGerms wrote:Sean O'Brien has played and won MOTM in the Heineken cup at 8 for Leinster. He might be better suited to 6 but he is still a very good 8.

Again, I'm sure he can do a job at 8. So could Tom Wood, and Warburton has played 8 as well, so has Kelly Brown and John Barclay incidentally.

But why would you not want to pick a specialist in that position in a Test match, when you have the choice of all the specialists in Britain and Ireland?

I agree with FES. Most backrows have played 8 before. But usually when their actual 8s are all injured

I'd like to see SOB back in his best position imo at 6 but if Lydiate is fit then I would be very tempted to play him personally. I would have Warbs at 7 if he can keep his current form up with Tips on the bench, with Faletau at 8 with Heaslip/Morgan on the bench ready to make an impact.

Liam wrote:I'd like to see SOB back in his best position imo at 6 but if Lydiate is fit then I would be very tempted to play him personally. I would have Warbs at 7 if he can keep his current form up with Tips on the bench, with Faletau at 8 with Heaslip/Morgan on the bench ready to make an impact.

When is Lydiate going to be able to prove his form?

I think its insulting to the players that play 8 when you considering playing players that are 6 or 7 there faletau Morgan Beattie heaslip are better 8s than SOB Kelly brown Warburton etc because its where they play. Sorry to say if a guy can't start in place they play week in week out then their nit going be good enough to play any where else.

rodders wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:
I dont care how good Warburton, Tipuric and Robshaw are (Robshaw is no where the best 6) only one of them can start

Warburton and Tupuric have been starting for Wales Geoff and have been extremely effective. Faletau at 8 gives you an athletic ball carrier and with plenty of big. powerful 3/4s around getting across the gainline shouldn't be an issue.

O'Brien on the bench gives an additional carrying option.

That was in the NH, not good enough against Australia
Gill and Hooper are Warburton and Tipurac equal.

We need a real ball carrying 6 not a second 7.
SOB is the best available; a fully fit Croft would be worth considering as he would give an extra lineout option.
However the Croft we saw against Wales should be no where near the squad let alone the team.

If we want a 6 who is a 6 then there really is only one choice

Kelly Brown has been outstanding in Internationals and the league and one of THE most under rated players around

Kelly Brown would also be a great tourist and teamleader. Never a backward step, always 100%. He is in the form of his life.

Also becoming a very good captain

And a delightful baritone.

And he has the advantage of always looking like he's chewing on a razor blade which always looks good for 'bloodied but unbowed' photo montages.

IanBru wrote:And a delightful baritone.

Indeed - what other potential lions can do do this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRYzoHnbi70

Ruby, no need to hammer Wood.

I have long suspected that England's inability to put Wood in the right position lies at the heart of their failure to perform.

Yep I would have no problem with Brown starting and he should definitely tour

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Liam wrote:I'd like to see SOB back in his best position imo at 6 but if Lydiate is fit then I would be very tempted to play him personally. I would have Warbs at 7 if he can keep his current form up with Tips on the bench, with Faletau at 8 with Heaslip/Morgan on the bench ready to make an impact.

When is Lydiate going to be able to prove his form?

Well he's got the rest of the domestic season. I think if he can get some game time under his belt he would definitely be in the squad. Same would go to Ferris if he wa sin the same position but I don't think he correct me if i'm wrong on that front. Lydiate allows the 7 to excel with his tackling style and with Warbs/Tips in superb form atm, Lydiate would enhance their performance greatly imo.

Liam wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Liam wrote:I'd like to see SOB back in his best position imo at 6 but if Lydiate is fit then I would be very tempted to play him personally. I would have Warbs at 7 if he can keep his current form up with Tips on the bench, with Faletau at 8 with Heaslip/Morgan on the bench ready to make an impact.

When is Lydiate going to be able to prove his form?

Well he's got the rest of the domestic season. I think if he can get some game time under his belt he would definitely be in the squad. Same would go to Ferris if he wa sin the same position but I don't think he correct me if i'm wrong on that front. Lydiate allows the 7 to excel with his tackling style and with Warbs/Tips in superb form atm, Lydiate would enhance their performance greatly imo.

A number of people calling for Lydiate but realistically he has, what, four games left to get in to the squad. If he goes he is going on reputation not performance.

I think the back row for the first test will be Robshaw 6 Warburton 7 and perhaps faltaue (spelling) 8.

If this works they may stick with it for the 2nd test. if it does not work, then Tiporic, will come in and maybe a change at 8 as well.

If Lydiate has a chance in Gatlands eyes so should Rennie. I personally think neither could be selected on merit. They both have the same amount of time to prove themselves

How can players realistically prove themselves in games that have little intensity or importance?

The Great Aukster wrote:How can players realistically prove themselves in games that have little intensity or importance?

precisely. As i said i would take neither

Only someone truly world class could enhance their reputation to near mythical levels without even playing.

Lydiate is just a Welsh version of Joe Worsley. Now, there is nothing wrong with that whatsoever. He had a role in the Welsh team and did it very well. But there are better players who are fit. Woodward made many mistakes in 2005, and picking D'Arcy on the basis of the 2004 Lions tour and only getting back to fitness before the tour was one of them. Lydiate has barely played in a year and a Lions tour is not somewhere to get your fitness back where the backrow options are stacked. If he was a second row or a winger where the options are sparse a case could be made. But its not and it cant.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I hope SOB gets some time in the warm up matches at 8 and maybe he can make a point

Were you suggesting SOB at 8, with Warburton at 6 and Tipuric at 7?

Still don't like it much. Has SOB played international rugby at 8 before? Why would you think he'd be a better 8 than Toby Falatau?

Not sure after one match in the position than Warburton is the best 6 we have either. There's no doubt he could do a job there though.

David Wallace, a player with a much superior skill set to O'Brien, was tried on the Lions tour out of position at 8. i think it was the first match but can't quite remember. Like O'Brien he did it on occasion for Munster and did the job well. He was pretty dreadful that day for the Lions playing out of position. The Lions isn't somewhere to learn your craft- Gatland needs to pick round pegs for round holes. Some excellent players might miss out but that is professional sport.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:How can players realistically prove themselves in games that have little intensity or importance?

precisely. As i said i would take neither

To a degree you are right, constantly Coaches are lambasted for selecting a player after little game time. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't, sometimes it works for a player other times not.

Not many thought Warburton should have been selected in the last two games of the six nations, in hindsight his selection was a master stroke.

Lydiate, Rennie, Morgan, Corbisiero, O'Driscoll, Paul O'Connell are all in the same boat. THey are all a risk, but the coaches will hopefully know which are a risk worth taking and which aren't.

Gatland spent some time over the six nations with the four teams in their camps getting to know players, quizzing coaches and working out players he might not know on a personal basis. Hopefully that is time well spent.

He and his fellow coaches will have to get around a lot of games now though to see the wide and varied final selections.

Regarding the backrow, I am not overly confident that Lydiate or Rennie have a chance, Lydiate more so as the coach knows him well and believes in him. To be honest of the Scottish backrowers it was Harley far more than Rennie, Beattie, Brown or any others that has impressed me the most. That guy is seriously good.

There's too many to choose!!!

I'd take:
6- Brown, SOB, Wood
7- Warburton, Tipuric, Robshaw, Armitage
8- Falatou, Morgan

And hope to god that some of them shine in the warm up games.

Faletau and Heaslip are very alike. I'd prefer a better ball carrying option at 8 so it would be SOB or Morgan for me or maybe Beattie.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Only someone truly world class could enhance their reputation to near mythical levels without even playing.

Lydiate is just a Welsh version of Joe Worsley. Now, there is nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

Check Worsley's RWC medal (+ a runner up medal). 2 HCs winners medals. 4 Prem winners medals. What is now the Amlin, winners medal. An Anglo - Welsh cup winners medal.

Plus a try every 7-8 games for England (10 tries), and Worsley and Earls both played the most games on the last Lions tour.

At this point in time, please don't compare Worsley to Lydiate.

Thanks.

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Only someone truly world class could enhance their reputation to near mythical levels without even playing.

Lydiate is just a Welsh version of Joe Worsley. Now, there is nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

Check Worsley's RWC medal (+ a runner up medal). 2 HCs winners medals. 4 Prem winners medals. What is now the Amlin, winners medal. An Anglo - Welsh cup winners medal.

Plus a try every 7-8 games for England (10 tries), and Worsley and Earls both played the most games on the last Lions tour.

At this point in time, please don't compare Worsley to Lydiate.

Thanks.

Hound,

No disrespect on your opinion but those mentioned are all accolades for team performances. Worsley would have had a medal even if he was injured. How many times did Worsley win man of the match or man of the tournament?

maestegmafia wrote:

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Only someone truly world class could enhance their reputation to near mythical levels without even playing.

Lydiate is just a Welsh version of Joe Worsley. Now, there is nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

Check Worsley's RWC medal (+ a runner up medal). 2 HCs winners medals. 4 Prem winners medals. What is now the Amlin, winners medal. An Anglo - Welsh cup winners medal.

Plus a try every 7-8 games for England (10 tries), and Worsley and Earls both played the most games on the last Lions tour.

At this point in time, please don't compare Worsley to Lydiate.

Thanks.

Hound,

No disrespect on your opinion but those mentioned are all accolades for team performances. Worsley would have had a medal even if he was injured. How many times did Worsley win man of the match or man of the tournament?

You cannae compare the two really as one played across the back row and one is a specialist blindside, one played in one of the best European club sides (Wasps) of the first decade of the 21C the other plays for (in all due respect) possibly the weakest of the Welsh Regions. However in my opinion Worsley is one of the greatest English utility back rows but isn't a patch on Lydiate as a specialist blindside flanker.

You're being very kind FHF, when you're saying "possibly the worst Welsh region". I'd use a word like comfortably to describe them

6. Wood
7. Warburton
8. Beattie

Bench: O'Brien

Well-balanced, with lineout option & a great impact player off the bench.

Mr Bounce wrote:6. Wood
7. Warburton
8. Beattie

Bench: O'Brien

Well-balanced, with lineout option & a great impact player off the bench.

WOW

No muscle, no balance, little size and no great carrying options...

I would prefer Robshaw over Wood, Tipuric over Warburton and it would be a toss up between Heaslip, Brown, Falatau and Beattie with SOB on the bench!

flyhalffactory wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Only someone truly world class could enhance their reputation to near mythical levels without even playing.

Lydiate is just a Welsh version of Joe Worsley. Now, there is nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

Check Worsley's RWC medal (+ a runner up medal). 2 HCs winners medals. 4 Prem winners medals. What is now the Amlin, winners medal. An Anglo - Welsh cup winners medal.

Plus a try every 7-8 games for England (10 tries), and Worsley and Earls both played the most games on the last Lions tour.

At this point in time, please don't compare Worsley to Lydiate.

Thanks.

Hound,

No disrespect on your opinion but those mentioned are all accolades for team performances. Worsley would have had a medal even if he was injured. How many times did Worsley win man of the match or man of the tournament?

You cannae compare the two really as one played across the back row and one is a specialist blindside, one played in one of the best European club sides (Wasps) of the first decade of the 21C the other plays for (in all due respect) possibly the weakest of the Welsh Regions. However in my opinion Worsley is one of the greatest English utility back rows but isn't a patch on Lydiate as a specialist blindside flanker.

The Lydiate - Worsley comparison is one I've thought before and 100% agree on. He's got a great work rate, and excellent defence in terms of line speed and chopping players down. But he doesn't smash people back at close quarters and he's not a ball carrier. Ideally I'd like a 6 to do all those things mentioned but also be able to carry. I'm less bothered about their scavenging skills.

That for me probably means SOB at 6. His work-rate is superb, gets through a lot of tackles, seems to have the bonus of a few turnovers AND his carrying is far better than Lydiate, Wood, Robshaw or any of the other 6s or 6.5s. The one thing you lose of course is a 6 with lineout capabilities.

6.SOB
7. Warburton - Over Tipuric, Rennie and the other 7s for leadership skills and experience. But Tips and Robshaw not far behind.
8. Faletau - I'm actually not a huge fan, I'd ordinarily want a better ball carrier so would probably take Morgan as well. BUT his fitness is incredible and we'll need that on fast pitches.

The difficulty I have is I then want to pick a very big second row that includes Ian Evans as a nailed on starter. That would leave me short of line-out options without picking a more mobile 2nd row partner, who would compromise the carrying. Perhaps Charteris if he finds form? Or Gray? Otherwise I'm probably going for Parling or AWJ.

And then do i pick Best for his breakdown skills or Hibbard for scrummaging/carrying and improved darts?! Ahh, decisions, decisions...oh hang on, I'm not picking the squad am I. Phew.