We all need to become Lions fans or there could be a lot of unhappiness when the first test team is announced

This board shows a lot of people looking at the Lions through blue, red, green or white tainted glasses. Thats normal I am the same when the Welsh squad/team is announced, I always count the number of Scarlets, Ospreys, Blues, Dragons ... and French players and mutter if the entire Blues team isn't selected(no honestly I am not that stupid!). But when the Welsh team goes out on the park I'm Welsh and when the Britsish Lions team goes out on the park I will be British and 100% behind all of them.

There have been Lions tours in the past when few Welshmen made the starting line up and I didn't find that any reason not to enjoy watching them..... This time I think English and Scottish fans will need to take a deep breath and try and do the same as in my opinion there may not be any players from either country in the starting 15 although there will be lots on the bench.

If we picked on form today, and a lot might change during the tour then -

Front row would be 3 Welsh or 2 Welsh and Healey
Second row POC and a Welshman
Back row will be any 3 from Heaslip, Toby, SOB, Warburton and Tuperic
Phillips, Sexton, Roberts, BOD,
Back 3 will be any 3 from Bowe, North, Cuthbert, Halfpenny and Kearney

Croft, Gray, Parling and Vunipola have the best chance of breaking this Welsh/Irish monopoly

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOO the WALLAAAAAAAAAAABIEEEEEEEEEEES

Ireland were mince in the 6N. 2nd last is where they finished! So why should they make up a 50-50 squad with Wales to form the Lions? Is that because they were the only team to beat Wales?

From a Scottish perspective I can see all 3 of our current tourists making the Test XXIII.

You will be

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Ireland were mince in the 6N. 2nd last is where they finished! So why should they make up a 50-50 squad with Wales to form the Lions? Is that because they were the only team to beat Wales?

From a Scottish perspective I can see all 3 of our current tourists making the Test XXIII.

Well Ireland's club sides are doing pretty well. And we're being told by posters to look at club performances too, like Kelly Brown's Saracens performances and Glasgow's good season. So maybe Gatland looked at Leinster and Munster games recently too, rather than just the 6N games.

Newsilure wrote:You will be

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Ireland were mince in the 6N. 2nd last is where they finished! So why should they make up a 50-50 squad with Wales to form the Lions? Is that because they were the only team to beat Wales?

From a Scottish perspective I can see all 3 of our current tourists making the Test XXIII.

Well Ireland's club sides are doing pretty well. And we're being told by posters to look at club performances too, like Kelly Brown's Saracens performances and Glasgow's good season. So maybe Gatland looked at Leinster and Munster games recently too, rather than just the 6N games.

In fairness we were looking at Kelly Browns International AND club form, as he has been outstanding in both :-)

True, and I and many welsh fans have said that we're surprised by Lydiate's inclusion! All I'm saying is that Ireland finishing bottom of the 6N can't have been the only thing Gatland looked at

Gatland was obviously looking at more than just the 6 nations. Ireland were dreadful this year, finish 2nd from bottom but you have to look at the bigger picture, even in the 6 nations. For example, Scotland beat Ireland and finished in a higher position so you might think that they would have more players touring but if you look at the backdrop, Ireland had an unbelievable amount of injuries and were clearly playing as a team without a cohesive game plan. This didn't escape Gatland. Individually Ireland have better players than Scotland and these players have preformed at provincial level and this has been taken into account as well.

Can everyone take a break and embrace the sentiment of the OP. He calls for unity and all he gets is more bitching.

Newsilure wrote:This board shows a lot of people looking at the Lions through blue, red, green or white tainted glasses. Thats normal I am the same when the Welsh squad/team is announced, I always count the number of Scarlets, Ospreys, Blues, Dragons ... and French players and mutter if the entire Blues team isn't selected(no honestly I am not that stupid!). But when the Welsh team goes out on the park I'm Welsh and when the Britsish Lions team goes out on the park I will be British and 100% behind all of them.

There have been Lions tours in the past when few Welshmen made the starting line up and I didn't find that any reason not to enjoy watching them..... This time I think English and Scottish fans will need to take a deep breath and try and do the same as in my opinion there may not be any players from either country in the starting 15 although there will be lots on the bench.

If we picked on form today, and a lot might change during the tour then -

Front row would be 3 Welsh or 2 Welsh and Healey
Second row POC and a Welshman
Back row will be any 3 from Heaslip, Toby, SOB, Warburton and Tuperic
Phillips, Sexton, Roberts, BOD,
Back 3 will be any 3 from Bowe, North, Cuthbert, Halfpenny and Kearney

Croft, Gray, Parling and Vunipola have the best chance of breaking this Welsh/Irish monopoly

You don't watch much rugby maybe

If we picked on CURRENT FORM (i.e. looking at the Heino Cup, AP, PRO12, TOP14) then Wilkinson, Grant, Ken Owens, Brown, and Barclay would be starting

But if you pick the players who have actually been selected...... on their CURRENT FORM or ABILITY the following would be picked


Front Row
Healy, Youngs, Jones

Locks
POC, Gray

Back Row
Lydiate, Warburton, Heaslip

Halfbacks
Phillips, Sexton

Centres
Davies, BOD (or Tualagi)

Wings
North, Bowe

FB
Hogg

That's
6 Welsh
6 Irish (5 if Tualagi is chosen)
2 Scots
2 English (1 if BOD is chosen)

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Ireland were mince in the 6N. 2nd last is where they finished! So why should they make up a 50-50 squad with Wales to form the Lions? Is that because they were the only team to beat Wales?

From a Scottish perspective I can see all 3 of our current tourists making the Test XXIII.

So were Scotland. Lets not pretend Scotland are suddenly any good just because they finished above Ireland for once. Ireland didnt lose any games by more than a score. This shows they are close to beating all teams. Scotland arent at all. With a new coach and less injuries they will not be "mince" next year. Lets not forget that Ireland gave Scotland an almighty spanking in 2012. Not a lot has changed since then.

Second row POC and a Welshman

Why a welshman?

Why not Gray - A SCOTSMAN...or Parling an ENGLISHMAN???

You say we need to become lions then you say something like that?? Pah

I think overall the squad is quite close to what most of us would have picked

Lots of Welsh, but too be expected

The shame is that Gatland allowed some howlers in there that has caused outrage,

added to this the possible tactics he is going to use, has got a lot of people down.

Healthy debate is fine, depression of another 4 years of wait for more that token Scots is fine (for a few days), pointing out the flaws in Gatland is fine

Welsh bashing is not fine, and while I am a very disappointed Scot, this is not the fault of the Welsh, or even Welsh players, but squarely at Gatland

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Second row POC and a Welshman

Why a welshman?

Why not Gray - A SCOTSMAN...or Parling an ENGLISHMAN???

You say we need to become lions then you say something like that?? Pah

That is a bit off.

So is Gatland bashing ok?

I have no issues with it being 23 Welshmen...IF they are the best players....what im not going to accept is shoehorning Welsh players in for the sake of it when other nations have better options...and i think you'll find most Irish, Scots and English agree.

We want the lions to play the best players and win the series...

The problem, Geordie, is that 'best' is so subjective. How do you quantify it or calculate it? Is it worked out on Man of the match awards? Tackles made? Wins? It is so difficult, and that is what this whole forum is based on - i.e. people's subjective opinions which cause endless arguments.

Who is better at 6 - SOB or Kelly Brown? Where do you even start?!

GeordieFalcon wrote:I have no issues with it being 23 Welshmen...IF they are the best players....what im not going to accept is shoehorning Welsh players in for the sake of it when other nations have better options...and i think you'll find most Irish, Scots and English agree.

We want the lions to play the best players and win the series...

I agree. The Welsh players are there on merit. However, I think guys like Cole, Sexton, POC, Drico, Tuilagi, and one or two others from the below list will make the team:

Bowe
Youngs x2
Grey
Parling

The rest will be Welsh and probably rightly so.

I fail to see what input the other coaches have had apart from daddy getting Farrell in.

If Graham likes Matt Stevens then why isn't he playing for England still.

dragonbreath wrote:Can everyone take a break and embrace the sentiment of the OP. He calls for unity and all he gets is more bitching.

If you take the sentiment of the OP its this

1. Lets pick on CURRENT FORM
2. Lets forget the form players unless they are Welsh (and lets chuck in the Irish as I don't to appear a WUM)

Hogg is on better form than Halfpenny
Maitland is on fire
Warburton is on better form than Tips, who was also mullered by Barclay.
Lydiate Sexton Bowe etc have only had a few games back from injury so whats he saying "lets forget them as they have no form to talk about"

Like has been said with Glasgow absolutely hammering the Os only a few weeks ago, the HC cup semis, the AP playoffs, Rabbo playoffs, the TOP14 playoffs...... the form book is clear in my mind and its not with no Scots starting

GunsGerms wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I have no issues with it being 23 Welshmen...IF they are the best players....what im not going to accept is shoehorning Welsh players in for the sake of it when other nations have better options...and i think you'll find most Irish, Scots and English agree.

We want the lions to play the best players and win the series...

I agree. The Welsh players are there on merit. However, I think guys like Cole, Sexton, POC, Drico, Tuilagi, and one or two others from the below list will make the team:

Bowe
Youngs x2
Grey
Parling

The rest will be Welsh and probably rightly so.

Include Healey and I'll agree with you

VictorU3 wrote:I fail to see what input the other coaches have had apart from daddy getting Farrell in.

If Graham likes Matt Stevens then why isn't he playing for England still.

Because Stuart Lancaster doesn't rate him?

I don't know, I'm guessing - like you.

Have I wronged you in a previous life Luckless?

Gretgael1 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I have no issues with it being 23 Welshmen...IF they are the best players....what im not going to accept is shoehorning Welsh players in for the sake of it when other nations have better options...and i think you'll find most Irish, Scots and English agree.

We want the lions to play the best players and win the series...

I agree. The Welsh players are there on merit. However, I think guys like Cole, Sexton, POC, Drico, Tuilagi, and one or two others from the below list will make the team:

Bowe
Youngs x2
Grey
Parling

The rest will be Welsh and probably rightly so.

Include Healey and I'll agree with you

Yes sorry thought Id included bungalow.

Isn't Stevens is retired from international duty? That's why he's not picked.

Gretgael1 wrote:Isn't Stevens is retired from international duty? That's why he's not picked.

He has retired from England duty which makes his selection all the more puzzling.

But the Lions is international rugby or am I missing something.

VictorU3 wrote:Have I wronged you in a previous life Luckless?

Not as far as I know.

VictorU3 wrote:But the Lions is international rugby or am I missing something.

He's definitely retired from England duty, he wanted to spend more time with his young family. I'm sure once he was offered to tour with the lions he couldn't turn it down.

You just know that Lydiate is going to be the man of the series here in the Test matches - Can we just give Gatland a chance - He's proved us wrong in Wales before and with the few exceptions (which he has his reasons for) I'm more than optimistic about this squad, in fact its the most optimistic I've been for years about a Lions squad and particularly the options we have available for the Test team

RubyGuby wrote:You just know that Lydiate is going to be the man of the series here in the Test matches

I'm beginning to wonder if you're on the WUM, Ruby.

Im not actually Luckless; you just know that its destined to happen

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:You just know that Lydiate is going to be the man of the series here in the Test matches

I'm beginning to wonder if you're on the WUM, Ruby.

I think he's just talking about sod's law Luckless, rather than WUMming.

Well done Griff - you're getting me man

Lions to win final test with a winning try from Robshaw after a great break by Rory Best. Hook converts from the touchline and Dan is named Man of Series.

Speaking of frustration, I saw a stat that there are more Lions this time born in New Zealand than in Scotland, and the same amount were born in South Africa as born in Scotland!

Depressing!

Don't worry though FES, half of the Welsh 15 were born in England I think!

Well the Lions is a multinational team, isn't it?

Newsilure wrote:But when the Welsh team goes out on the park I'm Welsh and when the Britsish Lions team goes out on the park I will be British and 100% behind all of them.[/b]

So what do the Irish get to be - percentage-wise???

Percentage wise the Irish are still Irish Fly

Nice of you to mention it Ruby. I feel I'll have to prod a lot of people though between now and the end that The Lions ain't Team GB. Some never seem to work out the difference.

Anyway, tally ho The Lions.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Speaking of frustration, I saw a stat that there are more Lions this time born in New Zealand than in Scotland, and the same amount were born in South Africa as born in Scotland!

Depressing!

Well all the Irish players are from Ireland.

Heaslip was born in Israel (add his name to the exotic mix )

SecretFly wrote:Heaslip was born in Israel (add his name to the exotic mix )

Yeah but he only lived there for a very short time cause his dad was posted there with the army. Hes clearly Irish as are both his parents.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:You just know that Lydiate is going to be the man of the series here in the Test matches

I'm beginning to wonder if you're on the WUM RUM, Ruby.

That works better

GunsGerms wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Heaslip was born in Israel (add his name to the exotic mix )

Yeah but he only lived there for a very short time cause his dad was posted there with the army. Hes clearly Irish as are both his parents.

Oh I know, Guns...but I'm just being accurate for the records an' all.

I think people need to stop worrying about this being the welsh lions.

It won't be. They have the largest party and a welsh coach but even then its doubtful that it will not be split evenly between the countries.

In terms of the biggest contributors

93 - 15 englishman began tour and 9 started 1st test (Scottish coach)
97 - 18 englishman began tour and 6 started 1st test (Scottish coach)
01 - 17 englishman began tour and 8 started 1st test (Kiwi Welsh coach)
05 - 21 englishman began tour and 8 started 1st test (English coach)
09 - 14 irishman began tour and 5 started 1st test (Scottish coach)

At the moment I can see perhaps 7 welshman potentially starting although a few of those are touch and go and I think it could go down as small as 4.

Probably the most dominant period was the 2nd test in 93 when I think 11 Englishman started... then again they did win that match and at the time the gulf between ENG and the rest was quite significant.. much more than there is now.

Gatland isn't going to throw away a series victory chance... if he thinks Croft should start over Lydiate, he'll choose Croft.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:You just know that Lydiate is going to be the man of the series here in the Test matches

I'm beginning to wonder if you're on the WUM RUM, Ruby.

That works better

That works a lot better, shame its Thursday! Never mind Bank Holiday weekend

fa0019 wrote:I think people need to stop worrying about this being the welsh lions.

It won't be. They have the largest party and a welsh coach but even then its doubtful that it will not be split evenly between the countries.

In terms of the biggest contributors

93 - 15 englishman began tour and 9 started 1st test (Scottish coach)
97 - 18 englishman began tour and 6 started 1st test (Scottish coach)
01 - 17 englishman began tour and 8 started 1st test (Kiwi Welsh coach)
05 - 21 englishman began tour and 8 started 1st test (English coach)
09 - 14 irishman began tour and 5 started 1st test (Scottish coach)

At the moment I can see perhaps 7 welshman potentially starting although a few of those are touch and go and I think it could go down as small as 4.

Probably the most dominant period was the 2nd test in 93 when I think 11 Englishman started... then again they did win that match and at the time the gulf between ENG and the rest was quite significant.. much more than there is now.

Gatland isn't going to throw away a series victory chance... if he thinks Croft should start over Lydiate, he'll choose Croft.

Not worried at all. The Wales team is the best team in the NH right now and they deserve more representation. I think they might have had the most representation for the '09 tour too despite Ireland's slam but thats another days work.

the coaching staff was very welsh though... gatland, edwards, howley they were plugging for their guys as much as Rowntree did this time around.

I think the original tour was 13 welsh. There were quite a few changes along the way though as injuries/bans came up.