Mayweather vs Ortiz in September 17th

First topic message reminder :

Thank god for a proper welterweight fight.

None of this Pacquiao vs Norris outta Corrie nonsense.

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=352&cat=boxer

Thoughts?

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:What happens outside the ring doesn't bother me, once you step inside the ring I don't expect to see someone quit

The health of the boxer is paramount. The fact that he came back stronger proves that he was at the wrong weight and he has grapefruits. If a boxer has had enough, he's had enough. Many questioned Vitali when he quit against Byrd even though all he had to do was remain upright and retain his belt. He was correct.

Still quit and for me thats unforgiveable inside the boxing ring

The Mighty Atom wrote:Sorry but we can't compare Ortiz to Ali, it wasn't the smartest thing to do to carry on like he did but he was a fighter through and through, the heart of a lion compared to him Ortiz doesn't even deserve consideration.

I wasn't comparing them just commenting on an example of a fighter that should have quit. Holmes beating of Ali was hard to watch. ESPN had a film on about it last year and Ali looked like the Parkinsons disease was in it's early stages in the build up.

Quitting boxing altogether is different to quitting during a fight

prettyboykev wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Sorry but we can't compare Ortiz to Ali, it wasn't the smartest thing to do to carry on like he did but he was a fighter through and through, the heart of a lion compared to him Ortiz doesn't even deserve consideration.

I wasn't comparing them just commenting on an example of a fighter that should have quit. Holmes beating of Ali was hard to watch. ESPN had a film on about it last year and Ali looked like the Parkinsons disease was in it's early stages in the build up.

I thought it was. I'm sure I've read somewhere that he was displaying early symptoms.

BALTIMORA wrote:So you agree that Mayweather was #1 as has been pointed out earlier?

very funny the way that guy doesn't answer this question. hes deffo the worlds best wum, you guys should stop taking the bait especially because he used a boxing quote from paris hilton to make his argument stand in another thread about you know who.

BALTIMORA wrote:

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

azania wrote:To say Ortiz lacks heart is way off the mark. You are not heartless if you can pass a gut check like the berto fight. Who knows the effect weight draining has on a boxers spyche.

He quit, that shows a distinct lack of heart...

The fact he has passed a tough test against Berto is irrelevant, he still quit vs. Maidana.

Duran quit. Many boxers have quit. Why risk his career and possibly life so some numpties can say how brave he is. What he did was use his brains. He came back and proved himself.

While I'm not sure how much Ortiz did or didn't quit, I do agree Az that there's nothing smart or brave about staying in the ring too long. Just look at Jeff Lacy, Margarito, Ali, Jermain Taylor...hell, even Mosley.

Against Maidana he stopped and quit. He totally gassed and couldn't/refused to carry on. On the face of things it looks bad. But he proved himself correct. Why risk your career and health?

Ali should have quit during the Holmes fight what benefit did it have on him having Larry batter him. Sorry mate but I don't agree. Live to fight another day and all that.

The Mighty Atom wrote:Quitting boxing altogether is different to quitting during a fight

It is, but are you seriously saying you'd have been disgusted if Enzo had quit before that last KD/the KO against Frenkel? Likewise Margarito against Pacquiao, Lacy vs Calzaghe, etc..?

The Mighty Atom wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:What happens outside the ring doesn't bother me, once you step inside the ring I don't expect to see someone quit

The health of the boxer is paramount. The fact that he came back stronger proves that he was at the wrong weight and he has grapefruits. If a boxer has had enough, he's had enough. Many questioned Vitali when he quit against Byrd even though all he had to do was remain upright and retain his belt. He was correct.

Still quit and for me thats unforgiveable inside the boxing ring

Thankfully they weren't thinking of you. After all calling them brave isn't going to pay their health care bills.

BALTIMORA wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Sorry but we can't compare Ortiz to Ali, it wasn't the smartest thing to do to carry on like he did but he was a fighter through and through, the heart of a lion compared to him Ortiz doesn't even deserve consideration.

I wasn't comparing them just commenting on an example of a fighter that should have quit. Holmes beating of Ali was hard to watch. ESPN had a film on about it last year and Ali looked like the Parkinsons disease was in it's early stages in the build up.

I thought it was. I'm sure I've read somewhere that he was displaying early symptoms.

The film is on ESPN classic from time to time it's called Muhammed and Larry he looks like it has set in.

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

azania wrote:To say Ortiz lacks heart is way off the mark. You are not heartless if you can pass a gut check like the berto fight. Who knows the effect weight draining has on a boxers spyche.

He quit, that shows a distinct lack of heart...

The fact he has passed a tough test against Berto is irrelevant, he still quit vs. Maidana.

Duran quit. Many boxers have quit. Why risk his career and possibly life so some numpties can say how brave he is. What he did was use his brains. He came back and proved himself.

Dont make this bigger than it is. He was winning the fight and quit to protect his looks.

And you know it was to protect his looks?

He said something along those lines after the fight, i'll try find the quote.

Please do. Ad the context it was said in.

Can't find the quote and I really cant be bothered to trawl the net looking for it.

Definately remember him saying it immediately after the fight though.... Guess you'll have to beleive me on this one.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

azania wrote:To say Ortiz lacks heart is way off the mark. You are not heartless if you can pass a gut check like the berto fight. Who knows the effect weight draining has on a boxers spyche.

He quit, that shows a distinct lack of heart...

The fact he has passed a tough test against Berto is irrelevant, he still quit vs. Maidana.

Duran quit. Many boxers have quit. Why risk his career and possibly life so some numpties can say how brave he is. What he did was use his brains. He came back and proved himself.

Dont make this bigger than it is. He was winning the fight and quit to protect his looks.

And you know it was to protect his looks?

He said something along those lines after the fight, i'll try find the quote.

Please do. Ad the context it was said in.

Can't find the quote and I really cant be bothered to trawl the net looking for it.

Definately remember him saying it immediately after the fight though.... Guess you'll have to beleive me on this one.

I do believe you. But the context is altogether different.

Just saying you can't say Ortiz has heart when others have shown it while he hasn't and one fight doesn't redeem him of that

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:What happens outside the ring doesn't bother me, once you step inside the ring I don't expect to see someone quit

The health of the boxer is paramount. The fact that he came back stronger proves that he was at the wrong weight and he has grapefruits. If a boxer has had enough, he's had enough. Many questioned Vitali when he quit against Byrd even though all he had to do was remain upright and retain his belt. He was correct.

Still quit and for me thats unforgiveable inside the boxing ring

Thankfully they weren't thinking of you. After all calling them brave isn't going to pay their health care bills.

Yeah, that's a blunt way to put it but that's about the size of it. People criticise Haye, but if he can achieve his goals, make his finances.set for life and retire with marbles intact then I can't fault him. It's a business at the end of the day, and there are far too many tragic cases of boxers living with long term consequences of their 'bravery', and all too often next to penniless. Sam Langford I think was one, Iran Barkley I think is another more recent example.

That is boxing unfortunately and having the heart to carry on when things aren't going your way is vital

The Mighty Atom wrote:Just saying you can't say Ortiz has heart when others have shown it while he hasn't and one fight doesn't redeem him of that

He steps into the ring risking his life (especially boiling down to LWW) shows tremendous heart, bravery and courage. Getting up from 2 heavy KDs and winning the fight shows huge heart. You are being unduly harsh and quite frankly its a tad disrespecful to refer to boxers who put their health at risk every time they fight heartless.

So taking a beating that could have long term detrimental affects on your life to prove you have heart is vital? Honestly mate I don't see it.

BALTIMORA wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:What happens outside the ring doesn't bother me, once you step inside the ring I don't expect to see someone quit

The health of the boxer is paramount. The fact that he came back stronger proves that he was at the wrong weight and he has grapefruits. If a boxer has had enough, he's had enough. Many questioned Vitali when he quit against Byrd even though all he had to do was remain upright and retain his belt. He was correct.

Still quit and for me thats unforgiveable inside the boxing ring

Thankfully they weren't thinking of you. After all calling them brave isn't going to pay their health care bills.

Yeah, that's a blunt way to put it but that's about the size of it. People criticise Haye, but if he can achieve his goals, make his finances.set for life and retire with marbles intact then I can't fault him. It's a business at the end of the day, and there are far too many tragic cases of boxers living with long term consequences of their 'bravery', and all too often next to penniless. Sam Langford I think was one, Iran Barkley I think is another more recent example.

Yep. People wax lyrical about Langford and Barkley and how brave they were. The boxing community had to pay for Langford'e eye surgery and Barkley is homeless and destitute. Yep they were brave indeed. Got respect from internet users. We will sleep well tonight and Berkley (add Benitez) wont know what time of day it is. But he was brave. Bra-effing-vo.

The Mighty Atom wrote:That is boxing unfortunately and having the heart to carry on when things aren't going your way is vital

It is-just look at JCC vs Taylor. That fighting spirit has to be tempered with a little priority and realism though. Thing is even a lot of boxers will turn round and point out when others have fought for too long. Personally I don't think the advantages of never giving up outweigh the disadvantages.

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Just saying you can't say Ortiz has heart when others have shown it while he hasn't and one fight doesn't redeem him of that

He steps into the ring risking his life (especially boiling down to LWW) shows tremendous heart, bravery and courage. Getting up from 2 heavy KDs and winning the fight shows huge heart. You are being unduly harsh and quite frankly its a tad disrespecful to refer to boxers who put their health at risk every time they fight heartless.

What's disrespectful is comparing a quitter like Ortiz to someone like Ali who had no quit in him, probably didn't know what the word means, it's a harsh brutal sport where serious injuries occur but i'm not going to sit here and make excuses for someone who couldn't handle it when the going got tough.

The Mighty Atom wrote:That is boxing unfortunately and having the heart to carry on when things aren't going your way is vital

Tell that to boxers boxers who have paid the ultimate prize.

Why not make it a fight to the finish. Dispense with judges. Last man standing and all that. Only the bravest will survive.

azania wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:What happens outside the ring doesn't bother me, once you step inside the ring I don't expect to see someone quit

The health of the boxer is paramount. The fact that he came back stronger proves that he was at the wrong weight and he has grapefruits. If a boxer has had enough, he's had enough. Many questioned Vitali when he quit against Byrd even though all he had to do was remain upright and retain his belt. He was correct.

Still quit and for me thats unforgiveable inside the boxing ring

Thankfully they weren't thinking of you. After all calling them brave isn't going to pay their health care bills.

Yeah, that's a blunt way to put it but that's about the size of it. People criticise Haye, but if he can achieve his goals, make his finances.set for life and retire with marbles intact then I can't fault him. It's a business at the end of the day, and there are far too many tragic cases of boxers living with long term consequences of their 'bravery', and all too often next to penniless. Sam Langford I think was one, Iran Barkley I think is another more recent example.

Yep. People wax lyrical about Langford and Barkley and how brave they were. The boxing community had to pay for Langford'e eye surgery and Barkley is homeless and destitute. Yep they were brave indeed. Got respect from internet users. We will sleep well tonight and Berkley (add Benitez) wont know what time of day it is. But he was brave. Bra-effing-vo.

Now who's the one being vile and disrespectful?

Az, in fairness to lumbering jack I recall hearing something similar about why Ortiz quit. I'm not sure if it was about his looks.

The Mighty Atom wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Just saying you can't say Ortiz has heart when others have shown it while he hasn't and one fight doesn't redeem him of that

He steps into the ring risking his life (especially boiling down to LWW) shows tremendous heart, bravery and courage. Getting up from 2 heavy KDs and winning the fight shows huge heart. You are being unduly harsh and quite frankly its a tad disrespecful to refer to boxers who put their health at risk every time they fight heartless.

What's disrespectful is comparing a quitter like Ortiz to someone like Ali who had no quit in him, probably didn't know what the word means, it's a harsh brutal sport where serious injuries occur but i'm not going to sit here and make excuses for someone who couldn't handle it when the going got tough.

I am not making the comparison. It is disrespectful to call any boxer a quitter. Period. You are sitting there. Unless you have stepped into the ring and taking punches to your head and body, remain sat their.

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:That is boxing unfortunately and having the heart to carry on when things aren't going your way is vital

Tell that to boxers boxers who have paid the ultimate prize.

Why not make it a fight to the finish. Dispense with judges. Last man standing and all that. Only the bravest will survive.

They were fighters that's what they did, it's boxing, if you wish to be naive enough to believe otherwise go ahead but don't think those who suffered as a consequence of seeking their goals are going to think to favourably of those who quit.

Atom, I think all he means is that while you and I may respect these boxers, it's not respect which looks after them in their old age and illness.

To succeed in boxing you need to be brave, Ortiz was not. At the end of the day he was entering the ring for a fight and knew what might be required of him. I am all for preserving a boxers health, but he quit when he was in no real danger.

BALTIMORA wrote:Az, in fairness to lumbering jack I recall hearing something similar about why Ortiz quit. I'm not sure if it was about his looks.

I know what Ortiz said Balti. L-J is correct mate. But it has to be taken in context of what he was going thru. He was dead at the weight and said what he said because he couldn't defend himself.

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Just saying you can't say Ortiz has heart when others have shown it while he hasn't and one fight doesn't redeem him of that

He steps into the ring risking his life (especially boiling down to LWW) shows tremendous heart, bravery and courage. Getting up from 2 heavy KDs and winning the fight shows huge heart. You are being unduly harsh and quite frankly its a tad disrespecful to refer to boxers who put their health at risk every time they fight heartless.

What's disrespectful is comparing a quitter like Ortiz to someone like Ali who had no quit in him, probably didn't know what the word means, it's a harsh brutal sport where serious injuries occur but i'm not going to sit here and make excuses for someone who couldn't handle it when the going got tough.

I am not making the comparison. It is disrespectful to call any boxer a quitter. Period. You are sitting there. Unless you have stepped into the ring and taking punches to your head and body, remain sat their.

Have you ever been in a boxing ring because I actually have and the thing is Ortiz did quit, there's no two ways about it and that is unforgivable

Lumbering_Jack wrote:To succeed in boxing you need to be brave, Ortiz was not. At the end of the day he was entering the ring for a fight and knew what might be required of him. I am all for preserving a boxers health, but he quit when he was in no real danger.

To step into the ring you have to be brave initially. Ortiz has proven himself each time he steps into the ring. Now he is a champ there is no need to question any apparent cowardice.

How do you know he was in no real danger. He was finished and dead at the weight.

The Mighty Atom wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:That is boxing unfortunately and having the heart to carry on when things aren't going your way is vital

Tell that to boxers boxers who have paid the ultimate prize.

Why not make it a fight to the finish. Dispense with judges. Last man standing and all that. Only the bravest will survive.

They were fighters that's what they did, it's boxing, if you wish to be naive enough to believe otherwise go ahead but don't think those who suffered as a consequence of seeking their goals are going to think to favourably of those who quit.

It's a fine line though and a tough one to call. No-one knows which is the punch which will cause their dementia, or accelerate the onset of Parkinson's, and I'd bet my last penny that a good few boxers wish they'd been a bit more considerate of these things.

BALTIMORA wrote:Atom, I think all he means is that while you and I may respect these boxers, it's not respect which looks after them in their old age and illness.

That's a price they were willing to make

OK, here's one for consideration: Jess Willard quit against Jack Depmsey. Was he a coward? Did he lack heart? It's considered one of the gutsiest performances in a boxing ring, but didn't go past four rounds. He lost several teeth, and suffered multiple broken bones, if the stories are to be believed. Should he have continued? Was he being cowardly?

The Mighty Atom wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:That is boxing unfortunately and having the heart to carry on when things aren't going your way is vital

Tell that to boxers boxers who have paid the ultimate prize.

Why not make it a fight to the finish. Dispense with judges. Last man standing and all that. Only the bravest will survive.

They were fighters that's what they did, it's boxing, if you wish to be naive enough to believe otherwise go ahead but don't think those who suffered as a consequence of seeking their goals are going to think to favourably of those who quit.

Its life and death/health. Many of those who suffered as a consequence of their bravery cant even think anymore because of their bravery. But hey, that's boxing. Cast them aside when they pass their sell by date and thank thrm for their bravery when their sucking up their dinner thru a straw.

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:That is boxing unfortunately and having the heart to carry on when things aren't going your way is vital

Tell that to boxers boxers who have paid the ultimate prize.

Why not make it a fight to the finish. Dispense with judges. Last man standing and all that. Only the bravest will survive.

They were fighters that's what they did, it's boxing, if you wish to be naive enough to believe otherwise go ahead but don't think those who suffered as a consequence of seeking their goals are going to think to favourably of those who quit.

Its life and death/health. Many of those who suffered as a consequence of their bravery cant even think anymore because of their bravery. But hey, that's boxing. Cast them aside when they pass their sell by date and thank thrm for their bravery when their sucking up their dinner thru a straw.

But lets praise those who haven't got the heart for a fight instead, nice logic

The Mighty Atom wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:Atom, I think all he means is that while you and I may respect these boxers, it's not respect which looks after them in their old age and illness.

That's a price they were willing to make

Too true, but that doesn't change the fact that when they were actually suffering later in life they may have wished they had done things differently. Emile Griffith knew there was a chance he could kill an opponent, but still fought. After he killed Paret he suffered terrible guilt for many many years.

The Mighty Atom wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:Atom, I think all he means is that while you and I may respect these boxers, it's not respect which looks after them in their old age and illness.

That's a price they were willing to make

Yes and many will abuse them when they are not willing to pay the near ultimate price in order to get your appreciation.

BALTIMORA wrote:OK, here's one for consideration: Jess Willard quit against Jack Depmsey. Was he a coward? Did he lack heart? It's considered one of the gutsiest performances in a boxing ring, but didn't go past four rounds. He lost several teeth, and suffered multiple broken bones, if the stories are to be believed. Should he have continued? Was he being cowardly?

That is fair enough, but to quit to protect your looks is not brave.

For the record Willards corner retired him

Who do you honestly think has more heart Ortiz or Ali?

The Mighty Atom wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:That is boxing unfortunately and having the heart to carry on when things aren't going your way is vital

Tell that to boxers boxers who have paid the ultimate prize.

Why not make it a fight to the finish. Dispense with judges. Last man standing and all that. Only the bravest will survive.

They were fighters that's what they did, it's boxing, if you wish to be naive enough to believe otherwise go ahead but don't think those who suffered as a consequence of seeking their goals are going to think to favourably of those who quit.

Its life and death/health. Many of those who suffered as a consequence of their bravery cant even think anymore because of their bravery. But hey, that's boxing. Cast them aside when they pass their sell by date and thank thrm for their bravery when their sucking up their dinner thru a straw.

But lets praise those who haven't got the heart for a fight instead, nice logic

If you step into the ring you automatically prove that you have the heart for a fight. Only brave people step into the squared circle. To call them heartless because they are not willing to risk their life/health/career is utterly disrespectful.

The Mighty Atom wrote:For the record Willards corner retired him

Who do you honestly think has more heart Ortiz or Ali?

Who is comparing the two?

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:OK, here's one for consideration: Jess Willard quit against Jack Depmsey. Was he a coward? Did he lack heart? It's considered one of the gutsiest performances in a boxing ring, but didn't go past four rounds. He lost several teeth, and suffered multiple broken bones, if the stories are to be believed. Should he have continued? Was he being cowardly?

That is fair enough, but to quit to protect your looks is not brave.

Context would be nice.

The Mighty Atom wrote:For the record Willards corner retired him

Who do you honestly think has more heart Ortiz or Ali?

OK, I was wrong on that detail, but would you have thought him a coward if he had said "I quit"?

As for Ortiz and Ali, course I'll go for Ali. Once Ortiz has retired he may have changed all our minds, but that we can't second guess. Do you not think that perhaps seeing Ali suffer the fruits of his bravery could quite realistically have influenced Ortiz's decision?

I'm merely saying that while Ortiz has heart, he's proved he lacks the heart for a battle, he has some way to go to prove otherwise

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:That is boxing unfortunately and having the heart to carry on when things aren't going your way is vital

Tell that to boxers boxers who have paid the ultimate prize.

Why not make it a fight to the finish. Dispense with judges. Last man standing and all that. Only the bravest will survive.

They were fighters that's what they did, it's boxing, if you wish to be naive enough to believe otherwise go ahead but don't think those who suffered as a consequence of seeking their goals are going to think to favourably of those who quit.

Its life and death/health. Many of those who suffered as a consequence of their bravery cant even think anymore because of their bravery. But hey, that's boxing. Cast them aside when they pass their sell by date and thank thrm for their bravery when their sucking up their dinner thru a straw.

But lets praise those who haven't got the heart for a fight instead, nice logic

If you step into the ring you automatically prove that you have the heart for a fight. Only brave people step into the squared circle. To call them heartless because they are not willing to risk their life/health/career is utterly disrespectful.

I dont buy that to be honest Azania. You dont have to be brave to be a boxer, that label has to be earned.

A boxer only boxes because he wants to. They do not risk their life for us, they make an informed decision about the recompense they are offered for a fight. Boxing is a much safer sport these days.

BALTIMORA wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:For the record Willards corner retired him

Who do you honestly think has more heart Ortiz or Ali?

OK, I was wrong on that detail, but would you have thought him a coward if he had said "I quit"?

As for Ortiz and Ali, course I'll go for Ali. Once Ortiz has retired he may have changed all our minds, but that we can't second guess. Do you not think that perhaps seeing Ali suffer the fruits of his bravery could quite realistically have influenced Ortiz's decision?

Well he didn't quit though did he

He might prove himself but at the moment he still has that hanging over his head, might have done but Ali would have known about similar cases too

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:OK, here's one for consideration: Jess Willard quit against Jack Depmsey. Was he a coward? Did he lack heart? It's considered one of the gutsiest performances in a boxing ring, but didn't go past four rounds. He lost several teeth, and suffered multiple broken bones, if the stories are to be believed. Should he have continued? Was he being cowardly?

That is fair enough, but to quit to protect your looks is not brave.

Context would be nice.

In what respect... Ortiz was winning the fight and quit to protect his looks. He was in no danger what so ever.

BALTIMORA wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:For the record Willards corner retired him

Who do you honestly think has more heart Ortiz or Ali?

OK, I was wrong on that detail, but would you have thought him a coward if he had said "I quit"?

As for Ortiz and Ali, course I'll go for Ali. Once Ortiz has retired he may have changed all our minds, but that we can't second guess. Do you not think that perhaps seeing Ali suffer the fruits of his bravery could quite realistically have influenced Ortiz's decision?

I'll add that Ali wanted to quit against Liston but Dundee made him go back. Would anyone call Ali a coward under those circumstances? Many hear would have.

The Mighty Atom wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:For the record Willards corner retired him

Who do you honestly think has more heart Ortiz or Ali?

OK, I was wrong on that detail, but would you have thought him a coward if he had said "I quit"?

As for Ortiz and Ali, course I'll go for Ali. Once Ortiz has retired he may have changed all our minds, but that we can't second guess. Do you not think that perhaps seeing Ali suffer the fruits of his bravery could quite realistically have influenced Ortiz's decision?

Well he didn't quit though did he

He might prove himself but at the moment he still has that hanging over his head, might have done but Ali would have known about similar cases too

He's moved on an picked himself up off the floor to win a world title since surely redeeming any act of cowardice.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:OK, here's one for consideration: Jess Willard quit against Jack Depmsey. Was he a coward? Did he lack heart? It's considered one of the gutsiest performances in a boxing ring, but didn't go past four rounds. He lost several teeth, and suffered multiple broken bones, if the stories are to be believed. Should he have continued? Was he being cowardly?

That is fair enough, but to quit to protect your looks is not brave.

Context would be nice.

In what respect... Ortiz was winning the fight and quit to protect his looks. He was in no danger what so ever.

And how do you know he was in no danger? He has said that he was totally gassed due to weight loss. Yet you choose that he wants to protect his looks to refer to him as a coward.