Lions changes?

Gatland will keep the same team, but Phillips is questionable and I'd like to see Lydiate start.

WAY too many missed tackles today.

t1000advancedprototype wrote:Gatland will keep the same team, but Phillips is questionable and I'd like to see Lydiate start.

WAY too many missed tackles today.

Lions missed 7 tackles, Aussies missed 16.

7 is still too many.

Get Edwards out there.

t1000advancedprototype wrote:7 is still too many.

Get Edwards out there.

I agree regarding Lydiate, or add Tipuric and move Warburton to six. We need more tacklers around the breakdown. Croft was in effective.

Phillips didnt have a great game, the bazzers had done their homework on him, but that wasn't an issue today Youngs certainly won't start we were using Phillips physicality well around the fringes. Our issue was not being able to contest the breakdowns due to the way the ref chose to adjudicate.

We need tacklers to contest the tight stuff, Croft is not the right man.

maestegmafia wrote:

t1000advancedprototype wrote:7 is still too many.

Get Edwards out there.

I agree regarding Lydiate, or add Tipuric and move Warburton to six. We need more tacklers around the breakdown. Croft was in effective.

Phillips didnt have a great game, the bazzers had done their homework on him, but that wasn't an issue today Youngs certainly won't start we were using Phillips physicality well around the fringes. Our issue was not being able to contest the breakdowns due to the way the ref chose to adjudicate.

We need tacklers to contest the tight stuff, Croft is not the right man.

Can't agree with that at all, he got knocked back and we lost yards pretty much every time he tried. If he remains for the next test the round the fringe stuff needs to be done far more sparingly, if at all, the Aussie defence round the fringes was very solid, we looked more effective with the ball shifted a bit further out.

Phillips was dreadful, slowed down so much ball. Youngs has to start

SOB for Croft and Bowe to come in, if fit.

Phillips was poor, as he usually is against Genia. The back row balance wasn't right either, so some change needed there. And if Bowe is fit he comes in for Cuthbert who was good enough on attack, awful in defence

O'Brien to replace Croft.
Youngs to replace Phillips
Bowe to move up to the bench if not start.

Bowe will be straight in, and I suspect that one of Tuilagi or Roberts will be as well - not that the centres today did much wrong.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:Phillips was poor, as he usually is against Genia. 

He didn't have a good game at all, but I don't see what Genia has to do with that. Genia wasn't the one making Phillips slow the ball down, or the one smashing him backwards whenever he tried to go himself.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:SOB for Croft and Bowe to come in, if fit.

Says the one eyed irishman.

Will Roberts be fit for the 2nd test? Be interesting to see if Gats brings him in at 12.

Scrumdown wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:SOB for Croft and Bowe to come in, if fit.

Says the one eyed irishman.  

So tell us what changes you'd make if any instead of just having a dig at a poster.

I would drop Warburton, it's his job to get turnovers, he didn't do it. Maybe put in Tipuric and put Warburton at 6. Lions weren't in with a sniff at the breakdown, not all on him, he played more like a 6 put that's not what he is there for.

It was a shocking performance, our backs were inept, Phillips' service was worse then usual and Sexton stood far too deep (also learning from ROG how to defend, got killed with that step), we made 100m less then the Wallabies.

I'm not sure the ground-made stat is all that important. Wallabies will always do well on that because they're such good and regular counter-attackers. It's the same reason that full-backs often top the ball-carrying stats, but that doesn't mean they should be playing number 8...

LeinsterFan4life wrote:SOB for Croft and Bowe to come in, if fit.

What did Croft do to get dropped in your mind....?

He played like a 6 because the 6 who was on there wasn't doing his job at the breakdown. Either Lydiate to start or awards to 6 and Tips to start. Also change at 12- love JD2 but not as effective at12

Croft did a decent job - I thought the balance of the pack worked well. Only cgange I'd make is youngs for Phillips and maybe see who regains a bit of fitness ti challenge for maitlands spot on the bench.

Phillips and Warburton were disappointing. I'd change them for Youngs and Tipuric.

And I'd either start Lydiate or not have him in the 22. I think O'Brien would be a much better player to spring from the bench than Lydiate.

Pyleboy65 wrote:He played like a 6 because the 6 who was on there wasn't doing his job at the breakdown. Either Lydiate to start or awards to 6 and Tips to start. Also change at 12- love JD2 but not as effective at12

I agree Warburton was top tackler, he was doing the job of a blindside because the blindside (Croft) was doing.....he was doing ahm, er....very little.

Warburton was the stand out back row player today, totally out shining the other two. Thought Croft was anonymous and Heaslip only slightly better.

The other two do each have a turnover to their name though.

Warburton was quiet, and blaming that on Croft is just speculative. "Warburton was quiet at the breakdown because he was doing all of Croft's work... at the breakdown". Makes little sense.

Pyleboy65 wrote:Warburton was the stand out back row player today, totally out shining the other two. Thought Croft was anonymous and Heaslip only slightly better.

I wouldn't mind seeing Lydiate and O'Brien in a back row with Warburton.

Shifty wrote:

Pyleboy65 wrote:Warburton was the stand out back row player today, totally out shining the other two. Thought Croft was anonymous and Heaslip only slightly better.

I wouldn't mind seeing Lydiate and O'Brien in a back row with Warburton.

I agree we need to protect our lead in the series.

thomh wrote:The other two do each have a turnover to their name though.

Warburton was quiet, and blaming that on Croft is just speculative. "Warburton was quiet at the breakdown because he was doing all of Croft's work... at the breakdown". Makes little sense.

If you're going off espn scrum stats that means they turned the ball over,that site doesn't give stats for turnovers won.

Croft for me is the weak link in a forwards dominated game such as England against Wales. It is a shame for the other two England back row forwards did not make the cut and Croft did! I don't thinak any of the back row forwards were very good, the front 5 for the first 50 mins did a lot of hard work.

I not sure why Roberts and Bowe would walk into the team as the wings won the game and JD2 had a great game his kicks, tackles and ball skills and it only took a minute to show his power.

I would have Lydiate in place of Croft and Faletau on the bench to cover 6/7/8, get shot of Maitland and put Bowe on the bench if fit.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

thomh wrote:The other two do each have a turnover to their name though.

Warburton was quiet, and blaming that on Croft is just speculative. "Warburton was quiet at the breakdown because he was doing all of Croft's work... at the breakdown". Makes little sense.

If you're going off espn scrum stats that means they turned the ball over,that site doesn't give stats for turnovers won.

Fair enough - didn't know that. That wasn't my main point though.

thomh wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

thomh wrote:The other two do each have a turnover to their name though.

Warburton was quiet, and blaming that on Croft is just speculative. "Warburton was quiet at the breakdown because he was doing all of Croft's work... at the breakdown". Makes little sense.

If you're going off espn scrum stats that means they turned the ball over,that site doesn't give stats for turnovers won.

Fair enough - didn't know that. That wasn't my main point though.

The point I was really making is that Warburton isn't much of an openside looking at his turnover count, hes more of a blindside hence his tackle count....and Croft isn't much of anything in my opinion.

Thomond wrote:I would drop Warburton, it's his job to get turnovers, he didn't do it. Maybe put in Tipuric and put Warburton at 6. Lions weren't in with a sniff at the breakdown, not all on him, he played more like a 6 put that's not what he is there for.

Well as a 7 it's pretty flipping hard to get the turnovers when the man who is supposed to be making the tackles and grunt work (the blindside) is prancing around on the wing

Warburton had to play like a six because our one doesn't play the way you say a blindside should

This Croft did nothing is absolute bollix. 7 tackles, 4 lineout takes, 6 runs for 16m. Warburton tackled, that's it, he was playing as a 7 and he needed to do more and didn't.

thomh wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

thomh wrote:The other two do each have a turnover to their name though.

Warburton was quiet, and blaming that on Croft is just speculative. "Warburton was quiet at the breakdown because he was doing all of Croft's work... at the breakdown". Makes little sense.

If you're going off espn scrum stats that means they turned the ball over,that site doesn't give stats for turnovers won.

Fair enough - didn't know that. That wasn't my main point though.

Yeah not questioning your point just letting you know,I used to think the same thing until I saw a match where Luke Fitz had particularly bad game and I looked on that site and it seemed he had won 4 turnovers.Took me a few minutes to figure out what was going on.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

thomh wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

thomh wrote:The other two do each have a turnover to their name though.

Warburton was quiet, and blaming that on Croft is just speculative. "Warburton was quiet at the breakdown because he was doing all of Croft's work... at the breakdown". Makes little sense.

If you're going off espn scrum stats that means they turned the ball over,that site doesn't give stats for turnovers won.

Fair enough - didn't know that. That wasn't my main point though.

The point I was really making is that Warburton isn't much of an openside looking at his turnover count, hes more of a blindside hence his tackle count....and Croft isn't much of anything in my opinion.

Honestly give it a rest about Croft. To say he isnt a much of an anything just makes you look like an idiot. Back rows work in combination with each other a six seven or eight dont have always have to do certain things its whether as a unit they do whats needed. Whether you think that wasnt achieved today I have no problem with but actually questioning Crofts genuine attributes as a player is quite frankly embarrassing.

Thomond wrote:This Croft did nothing is absolute bollix. 7 tackles, 4 lineout takes, 6 runs for 16m. Warburton tackled, that's it, he was playing as a 7 and he needed to do more and didn't.

IT IS NOT A BLINDSIDE'S JOB TO MAKE RUNS IN SPACE AND LINEOUT TAKES!

It is not a bad thing, but you can't blame your openside for playing like a six then use attributes and stats that support the fact that our blindside doesn't play like one

It's more important to make lots of tackles than it is to get a couple of classy steals

Phillips has to go. He pass is so slow and his much vaunted work carrying the ball was totally ineffective. As for his marking of Genia! The replay shows that not only did he get turned inside for the try out he then strolled back when other members of the team were desperately trying to get back to defend. His slowness may be forgivable but not the laziness.

The only other blindside on the tour who really plays like Warburton did today is Lydiate, if we wanted to play Lydiate then we should have played Lydiate. SOB is like Croft in a lot of ways, Croft wasn't great and he will probably be dropped but Warburton doesn't deserve to get off scot free. He didn't carry, he tackled well, but that isn't all he is supposed to do, we needed more and didn't get it. As a leader I think he could be called into question, as could other guys, the last ten minutes was when the Lions should have believed in their defence, and communicated well, they didn't and made sloppy errors and gazve away two ridiculous penalties.

Thomond wrote:I would drop Warburton, it's his job to get turnovers, he didn't do it. Maybe put in Tipuric and put Warburton at 6. Lions weren't in with a sniff at the breakdown, not all on him, he played more like a 6 put that's not what he is there for.

It was a shocking performance, our backs were inept, Phillips' service was worse then usual and Sexton stood far too deep (also learning from ROG how to defend, got killed with that step), we made 100m less then the Wallabies.

How can you blame Warburton for his game today, Clearly the ref was making abysmal decisions at the break down. Sam's break down work is the best part of his games. Sam had no choice but to adapt to the ref's style of play otherwise he would have given more penalties away. It happened to O'Driscoll 3 times even though they were clearly legal.
Sam did what else he does good and that's get around the park and led as example as well as always pestering the ref. So your being way too harsh on him here.
Tipuric would have had the exact same problem so replacing him would be no good, if you think of it the best 7 that would have suited that style of game would have been O'Brien so you couldn't be more wrong

Only changes I would make is Sean O'Brian for Croft and Bowe for Cuthbert (if fit), on the bench I would swap Stevens for Cole because Cole has been awful all tour apart from one game against the NSW team where lets be honest should have been a walk in the park anyway . At least Matt Stevens has made some impact when he has come of the bench on this tour, especially his tackling around the fringes.

Think the front 5 should all stay in, did well. Would have liked to see a bit more carrying from AWJ and POC but don't think Parling would have done much more. Subs likely to be the same but they need to add more impetus, the scrum struggled from the moment Jones and Corbs went off.

The back row struggled and I think Croft and Heaslip (surprised he hasn't been mentioned more on this thread as I thought he had a poor game) will be replaced. Tips, Warburton and Faletau may get a go again.

I thought Phillips really struggled, just didn't seem up for it like he usually is. Their first try was a bit embarrassing for him and if you look at the replay from behind our line he looked like he gave up (I thought he must have been injured but he can't have been as he stayed on).

Outside Phillips I thought they all did well enough going forward but some shocking defending at times. Both tries came from very simple moves and players not even getting close enough to make a tackle (Phillips for the first, Sexton for the second). I wouldn't be surprised to see Roberts/Tuilagi at 12 next week - Davies didn't do a lot wrong but didn't make any hard yards. Bowe for Cuthbert is a possibility as, apart from the try, he struggled a bit.

The positive is that the Lions won and will know they can play a lot better. The negative is that the Aussies can also play a lot better and only lost by 2 pts despite all the injuries they had.

1.Corbs
2.Youngs - Really shone today and showed just how good a player he is becoming.
3.Jones
4.Wyn-Jones
5.O'Connell
6.O'Brien - Harsh on Croft, I'm a big fan but would like to see SOB's bulldozing carries
7.Warburton - I'm often a critic but he actually played pretty well today, many players of his style would have given away penalties with the reffing of the breakdown but he kept his head and did everything he safely could. Solid game.
8.Heaslip

9.Youngs
10.Sexton

11.North
12.Davies
13.O'Driscoll
14.Bowe
15.Halfpenny

16.Hibbard 17.Vunipola 18.Cole 19.Parling 20.Croft 21.Phillips 22.Farrell 23.Roberts

Some preposterously simplistic thinking here. It's the 6s job to make tackles? Not its not. Every player should make as many tackles as is required. A 7s job is to turnover possession? Tripe. It's any players job who sees they have the opportunity to effect a turnover. People seem to want to use whatever stat they can to prove a point based on their own predilections. Warburton worked hard and made tackles, but is that really enough for satisfaction that he played well. How effective we're those tackles? Did they effect turnovers? Did they stop Australian momentum or did they offload? That is how tackles should be judged.

Neither Warburton not Croft did enough to justify their selections over Tipuric and SOB, but neither were poor enough to be automatically dropped.

Jhamer25 wrote:

Thomond wrote:I would drop Warburton, it's his job to get turnovers, he didn't do it. Maybe put in Tipuric and put Warburton at 6. Lions weren't in with a sniff at the breakdown, not all on him, he played more like a 6 put that's not what he is there for.

It was a shocking performance, our backs were inept, Phillips' service was worse then usual and Sexton stood far too deep (also learning from ROG how to defend, got killed with that step), we made 100m less then the Wallabies.

How can you blame Warburton for his game today, Clearly the ref was making abysmal decisions at the break down. Sam's break down work is the best part of his games. Sam had no choice but to adapt to the ref's style of play otherwise he would have given more penalties away. It happened to O'Driscoll 3 times even though they were clearly legal.
Sam did what else he does good and that's get around the park and led as example as well as always pestering the ref. So your being way too harsh on him here.
Tipuric would have had the exact same problem so replacing him would be no good, if you think of it the best 7 that would have suited that style of game would have been O'Brien so you couldn't be more wrong :picard:a

SOB is a shoite 7, Warburton played well as a 6 but it's not what he is there to do (Hook is right in that the backrow don't nor shouldn't have specific jobs ideally you want them comfortable in all aspects), I wouldn't be against him playing at 6 with Tipuric at 7, he did feic all at the breakdown, a message he might have been better off communicating to his players. Ref was consistent at breakdown, you play to how he rules it, you learn within 5 minutes how it is going to go, Aussies did, we didn't. Croft wasn't great not as bad as some are making out, but I would drop him.

Warburton had a good game in some aspects, in defence but little elsewhere.

jelly wrote:Think the front 5 should all stay in, did well. Would have liked to see a bit more carrying from AWJ and POC but don't think Parling would have done much more. Subs likely to be the same but they need to add more impetus, the scrum struggled from the moment Jones and Corbs went off.

The back row struggled and I think Croft and Heaslip (surprised he hasn't been mentioned more on this thread as I thought he had a poor game) will be replaced. Tips, Warburton and Faletau may get a go again.

I thought Phillips really struggled, just didn't seem up for it like he usually is. Their first try was a bit embarrassing for him and if you look at the replay from behind our line he looked like he gave up (I thought he must have been injured but he can't have been as he stayed on).

Outside Phillips I thought they all did well enough going forward but some shocking defending at times. Both tries came from very simple moves and players not even getting close enough to make a tackle (Phillips for the first, Sexton for the second). I wouldn't be surprised to see Roberts/Tuilagi at 12 next week - Davies didn't do a lot wrong but didn't make any hard yards. Bowe for Cuthbert is a possibility as, apart from the try, he struggled a bit.

The positive is that the Lions won and will know they can play a lot better. The negative is that the Aussies can also play a lot better and only lost by 2 pts despite all the injuries they had.

Heaslip was amazing so I don't know what your on about, apart from that though you are spot on.
People are being hash on Phillips as well, Robbie Deans clearly saw him as the Lions' main threat and coached them into stopping his game. Mowen was on him all game so even though he wasn't his brilliant self, it's also not really his fault he played bad, the Australians just watched and adapted to his style of game. Wouldn't have Young's he is shocking in defence

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Some preposterously simplistic thinking here. It's the 6s job to make tackles? Not its not. Every player should make as many tackles as is required. A 7s job is to turnover possession? Tripe. It's any players job who sees they have the opportunity to effect a turnover. People seem to want to use whatever stat they can to prove a point based on their own predilections. Warburton worked hard and made tackles, but is that really enough for satisfaction that he played well. How effective we're those tackles? Did they effect turnovers? Did they stop Australian momentum or did they offload? That is how tackles should be judged.

Neither Warburton not Croft did enough to justify their selections over Tipuric and SOB, but neither were poor enough to be automatically dropped.

+1

The Lions were average at best, credit to Australia who controlled the pace of the game for vast periods.  Other than the two tries, the Lions rarely threatened the Australian line.

Scraped through by the skin of their teeth today, not sure it'll be enough next weekend depending on the Australian injuries.

Lions need more powerful carriers.

Thomond wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote:

Thomond wrote:I would drop Warburton, it's his job to get turnovers, he didn't do it. Maybe put in Tipuric and put Warburton at 6. Lions weren't in with a sniff at the breakdown, not all on him, he played more like a 6 put that's not what he is there for.

It was a shocking performance, our backs were inept, Phillips' service was worse then usual and Sexton stood far too deep (also learning from ROG how to defend, got killed with that step), we made 100m less then the Wallabies.

How can you blame Warburton for his game today, Clearly the ref was making abysmal decisions at the break down. Sam's break down work is the best part of his games. Sam had no choice but to adapt to the ref's style of play otherwise he would have given more penalties away. It happened to O'Driscoll 3 times even though they were clearly legal.
Sam did what else he does good and that's get around the park and led as example as well as always pestering the ref. So your being way too harsh on him here.
Tipuric would have had the exact same problem so replacing him would be no good, if you think of it the best 7 that would have suited that style of game would have been O'Brien so you couldn't be more wrong :picard:a

SOB is a shoite 7, Warburton played well as a 6 but it's not what he is there to do (Hook is right in that the backrow don't nor shouldn't have specific jobs ideally you want them comfortable in all aspects), I wouldn't be against him playing at 6 with Tipuric at 7, he did feic all at the breakdown, a message he might have been better off communicating to his players. Ref was consistent at breakdown, you play to how he rules it, you learn within 5 minutes how it is going to go, Aussies did, we didn't. Croft wasn't great not as bad as some are making out, but I would drop him.

Warburton had a good game in some aspects, in defence but little elsewhere.

Ok, but still there is nothing more Warburton could have done with the ref there and if tipuric played it would have been the same case for him at 7.

reallybored wrote:The Lions were average at best, credit to Australia who controlled the pace of the game for vast periods.  Other than the two tries, the Lions rarely threatened the Australian line.

Scraped through by the skin of their teeth today, not sure it'll be enough next weekend depending on the Australian injuries.

Lions need more powerful carriers.

Forwards or Backs?

There is probably little he could have done with the ref, but that message should have been communicated more to the players both before and during the game, a coaching issue mainly though in fairness.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Phillips and Warburton were disappointing. I'd change them for Youngs and Tipuric.

And I'd either start Lydiate or not have him in the 22. I think O'Brien would be a much better player to spring from the bench than Lydiate.

I'd reunite Sexton with Murray who is a much more rounded SH as he has a good pass. The only similarity between Murray & Phillips is that they are both tall and dark.

The only reason why Youngs made the bench (because he has been poor so far) is because he is used to playing with Farrell. Gatland put all his eggs in one basket by putting Sexton with Phillips - he should have seen that Phillips was poor against the Tahs when paired with Sexton.

Turnovers won by the Lions (according to official B&I Lions stats)

Heaslip 2
Sexton, North, Davies & Mako 1 each.

The ref was fine except for the first penalty against BOD which was about as legal as you can get.

I like his referring style in that likes to keep the game flowing instead of constantly blowing his whistle like a lot of the french refs.

I think Phillips had a poor game as I predicted he would and so should swap him with youngs.  I think either Roberts or tuilagi should come in and line up along side bod.

I think croft should be dropped to the bench, we need some a proper ball carrier. Although dropping croft may mean our line out suffers. Still in shock about the absolute Poopie that people are writing about him

It's a shame blues isn't still here, would of liked to hear about he thought Tom youngs is crap.

Sin é wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:Phillips and Warburton were disappointing. I'd change them for Youngs and Tipuric.

And I'd either start Lydiate or not have him in the 22. I think O'Brien would be a much better player to spring from the bench than Lydiate.

I'd reunite Sexton with Murray who is a much more rounded SH as he has a good pass. The only similarity between Murray & Phillips is that they are both tall and dark.

The only reason why Youngs made the bench (because he has been poor so far) is because he is used to playing with Farrell. Gatland put all his eggs in one basket by putting Sexton with Phillips - he should have seen that Phillips was poor against the Tahs when paired with Sexton.

Turnovers won by the Lions (according to official B&I Lions stats)

Heaslip 2
Sexton, North, Davies & Mako 1 each.

What games have you been watching? Youngs has had 1 poor game and has been using Phillips all the way. Murray has played 1 good game!