Will Lancaster learn anything from the Lions win?

by englandglory4ever Tue 09 Jul 2013, 11:42 am

Or will he blindly keep calm and carry on? Some tips from me are:-

#1. Power blended with pace wins rugby matches. Soften them up with the bludgeon and then apply the finish with pace.

This means:-
1. Tom Youngs is too under-powered to start a test match. Much better off the bench.
2. Corbs is the real deal at loose-head.
3. Cole is a little under-powered at scrum time but may get better. Hopefully.
4. Croft was found out by Gatland. He is lightweight and goes absent from the coal-face too often. Let him go like Gatland did.
5. Stop playing people out of position FFS. Put wingers on the wing, #8s at #8 and full-backs at full-back for goodness sake.
6. Let Chris Ashton go even though you think he's a nice boy. He has had his chance to show he can tackle and failed.
7. You must power-up the back-line. Will Greenwood stood well above both Roberts and Davies when he interviewed them. You must find some big boys and develop them. You only have 2 years left.

Oh and lastly, under-estimate the power of the Welsh team at your peril. They were magnificent in Aus.

by Taffineastbourne Tue 09 Jul 2013, 11:45 am

After the game in the 6N's I doubt that Lancaster will take Wales lightly.

by ChequeredJersey Tue 09 Jul 2013, 11:52 am

Not sure I agree with any of that except pace and power mixed is obviously quite effective (if Lancaster didn't already k ow that I worry for his coaching credentials) and that an on song Wales could really hurt us and Corbs is excellent. Oh and definitely the not playing people out of position bit but we already knew that. So about half of it really

by offload Tue 09 Jul 2013, 11:56 am

"Stop playing people out of position FFS. Put wingers on the wing, #8s at #8 and full-backs at full-back for goodness sake"

Hate it when coaches persist in playing specialists out of position. Hopefully SL learned this lesson a few months ago in Cardiff though.

by Cyril Tue 09 Jul 2013, 12:03 pm

A fit and firing Ben Morgan is VERY important to England. Faleltau had a cracking 3rd Test and that's the kind of thing Morgan (a proper 8 too) can provide. Watching him for the Saxons against Argentina was fantastic.

He's really missed when he's not there, especially when we haven't had great cover for some time. Hopefully Billy V will continue to progress.

by Breadvan Tue 09 Jul 2013, 12:07 pm

offload wrote: "Stop playing people out of position FFS. Put wingers on the wing, #8s at #8 and full-backs at full-back for goodness sake"

Hate it when coaches persist in playing specialists out of position. Hopefully SL learned this lesson a few months ago in Cardiff though.

What he said 100%,with the form players too. Play a similar gameplan like we did v Argentina. Fast offloads, pick n go's etc.

by Looseheaded Tue 09 Jul 2013, 12:18 pm

Also hopefully he's seeing that Farrell can play flat or at least has the potential to. Could be a quality 10 if he changes towards this

by Knackeredknees Tue 09 Jul 2013, 12:22 pm

englandglory4ever wrote:Or will he blindly keep calm and carry on? Some tips from me are:-

#1. Power blended with pace wins rugby matches. Soften them up with the bludgeon and then apply the finish with pace.

This means:-
1. Tom Youngs is too under-powered to start a test match. Much better off the bench.just because he's not as powerful as hibbs does not make him underpowered, plus his line out and loose work is better
2. Corbs is the real deal at loose-head.
3. Cole is a little under-powered at scrum time but may get better. Hopefully.really? Since when? A few below par games does not make him underpowered
4. Croft was found out by Gatland. He is lightweight and goes absent from the coal-face too often. Let him go like Gatland did.dont believe everything you read on here! His tackle rate and turnovers was near the top in the games he played
5. Stop playing people out of position FFS. Put wingers on the wing, #8s at #8 and full-backs at full-back for goodness sake.we did play a full back at full back for the last two seasons? Agree with the 8at8
6. Let Chris Ashton go even though you think he's a nice boy. He has had his chance to show he can tackle and failed.ok and let's give a cap out to every winger! A dip in form and your gone, better warn wade etc. miss a tackle and your out
7. You must power-up the back-line. Will Greenwood stood well above both Roberts and Davies when he interviewed them. You must find some big boys and develop them. You only have 2 years left.size does not equal power and power does not equal skill 36 is not powerful but is one of the most skillful. Looks like your happy with Barrett and Manu

Oh and lastly, under-estimate the power of the Welsh team at your peril. They were magnificent in Aus.

by Cyril Tue 09 Jul 2013, 12:48 pm

Knackeredknees wrote:b]size does not equal power and power does not equal skill 36 is not powerful but is one of the most skillful. Looks like your happy with Barrett and Manu

Twelvetrees has good hands and a rugby brain but he's also a very powerful player. He's a big lad. Very good defensively. He could be a very special player for England.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 09 Jul 2013, 12:50 pm

Cyril wrote:
Knackeredknees wrote:b]size does not equal power and power does not equal skill 36 is not powerful but is one of the most skillful. Looks like your happy with Barrett and Manu
Twelvetrees has good hands and a rugby brain but he's also a very powerful player. He's a big lad. Very good defensively. He could be a very special player for England.

He is a big lad, but he is not really a power player, just as Greenwood wasn't.

I can only guess that the OP wants Leroy Burrell or Matt Banahan at 12 Very Happy

by LordDowlais Tue 09 Jul 2013, 12:53 pm

I do not know if Lancaster has learned anything, but I have learned that Corbisiero is one hell of a loose head prop, and he is one of the best in the NH, all you need to do now is find a decent tight head and hooker and you will be laughing.

by Cyril Tue 09 Jul 2013, 12:56 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I do not know if Lancaster has learned anything, but I have learned that Corbisiero is one hell of a loose head prop, and he is one of the best in the NH, all you need to do now is find a decent tight head and hooker and you will be laughing.

Do you mean as a back-up to Cole or do you not rate Cole?

by Big Tue 09 Jul 2013, 12:57 pm

Cyril wrote:
Knackeredknees wrote:b]size does not equal power and power does not equal skill 36 is not powerful but is one of the most skillful. Looks like your happy with Barrett and Manu
Twelvetrees has good hands and a rugby brain but he's also a very powerful player. He's a big lad. Very good defensively. He could be a very special player for England.

Agree. For what it's worth he is pretty much exactly the same size and build as Greenwood used to be.

by LordDowlais Tue 09 Jul 2013, 1:00 pm

Cyril wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I do not know if Lancaster has learned anything, but I have learned that Corbisiero is one hell of a loose head prop, and he is one of the best in the NH, all you need to do now is find a decent tight head and hooker and you will be laughing.
Do you mean as a back-up to Cole or do you not rate Cole?

Cole is still young and has potential on his side, he needs to learn the dark arts of scrummaging as the last few times I have watched him he has been shown up in the scrum, I am not saying he will not be great in years to come though.

by Cyril Tue 09 Jul 2013, 1:12 pm

Big wrote:
Cyril wrote:
Knackeredknees wrote:b]size does not equal power and power does not equal skill 36 is not powerful but is one of the most skillful. Looks like your happy with Barrett and Manu
Twelvetrees has good hands and a rugby brain but he's also a very powerful player. He's a big lad. Very good defensively. He could be a very special player for England.

Agree. For what it's worth he is pretty much exactly the same size and build as Greenwood used to be.

Yeah, I'm a bit surprised about that. 36 just seems a bit stockier and slightly more direct. Greenwood is bigger than I thought.

by Big Tue 09 Jul 2013, 1:46 pm

LordDowlais - Cole hasn't looked as good in the scrum from 6 nations onwards. I think the problems with England were more to do with lack of power from the second and back row. However, I'm also wondering about the impact of Castrogiovanni getting less game time at Leicester. When they were sharing the load and playing a limited number of games I think both benefitted and were always fresh for it, but he's probably been playing more rugby than he's used to over the last season and maybe that has played a part as well?

Cyril - I think it's the baggy shirts they used to wear (proper rugby shirts...), it's easy to look a bit less bulky when you are lost in one of those.

by **Biltong** Tue 09 Jul 2013, 1:53 pm

There is a shortage of world class tight head props in the world. Cole is good enough, you rarely find any tight heads that manage to dominate loose heads, I would dare to suggests if you have a tight head that can gain parity and also has allround general skills then you should settle for that.

Can anyone think of a tight head that is currently dominating looseheads on a regular basis.

I am not talking about one off matches.

I think the judgement on Croft is unfair. When you look at the English back row Croft fits in there better as an overall balance as with the Lions.

The calls Gatland made and the calls Lancaster will make is totally different as they work with different personnel.

by beshocked Tue 09 Jul 2013, 2:18 pm

I don't think Croft should be discarded. I just think he needs to be used properly. Easier said than done.

The backrow that got spanked by Wales had very poor balance - Wood is not a no 8 for example. Croft is not your typical 6.

Morgan has proved himself to be a very important player for England.

Croft functioned properly when paired with Robshaw and Morgan.

I think the Lions tour told Lancaster that balance is key.

Parling should be retained as should all involved on the tour except for Stevens.

by **Biltong** Tue 09 Jul 2013, 2:41 pm

beshocked wrote:I don't think Croft should be discarded. I just think he needs to be used properly. Easier said than done.

Croft functioned properly when paired with Robshaw and Morgan.

Exactly, it is about the balance of the backrow as a whole and how individual players compliment each others strengths.

by Cyril Tue 09 Jul 2013, 2:45 pm

Biltong wrote:
beshocked wrote:I don't think Croft should be discarded. I just think he needs to be used properly. Easier said than done.

Croft functioned properly when paired with Robshaw and Morgan.

Exactly, it is about the balance of the backrow as a whole and how individual players compliment each others strengths.

I like Croft and agree on the balance issue. Morgan is so important.

I think Lancaster will go for Wood, Robshaw, Morgan and I'm happy with that.

Croft should still be in the mix.

by BamBam Tue 09 Jul 2013, 2:47 pm

At the very least Croft gives us a great bench option if Wood is the starter, and vice versa

by **LondonTiger** Tue 09 Jul 2013, 2:52 pm

beshocked wrote:I don't think Croft should be discarded. I just think he needs to be used properly. Easier said than done.

The backrow that got spanked by Wales had very poor balance - Wood is not a no 8 for example. Croft is not your typical 6.

Morgan has proved himself to be a very important player for England.

Croft functioned properly when paired with Robshaw and Morgan.

I think the Lions tour told Lancaster that balance is key.

Parling should be retained as should all involved on the tour except for Stevens.

Disagree 100% with your selections B, far too many lightweight kitty cats Wink

Hookers should be Webber and Hartley.
TH Props - Wilson and Stevens
Second Rows - Attwood, Borthwick, Launchbury & Lawes
Blindsides - Wood and Haskell

by bluestonevedder Tue 09 Jul 2013, 3:08 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Cyril wrote:
Knackeredknees wrote:b]size does not equal power and power does not equal skill 36 is not powerful but is one of the most skillful. Looks like your happy with Barrett and Manu
Twelvetrees has good hands and a rugby brain but he's also a very powerful player. He's a big lad. Very good defensively. He could be a very special player for England.

He is a big lad, but he is not really a power player, just as Greenwood wasn't.

I can only guess that the OP wants Leroy Burrell or Matt Banahan at 12

I reeeeeeeeeally wish his name was Leroy, LT!

I would love to hear any rugby coach screaming 'Leroy' at the top of their voice during a game!

by **LondonTiger** Tue 09 Jul 2013, 3:18 pm

Oh year, it's Luther isn't it. Oops. Leroy was a sprinter.

by Cyril Tue 09 Jul 2013, 3:21 pm

Leeeeeeeeeeerooooy Jenkinnnnns!

by bluestonevedder Tue 09 Jul 2013, 3:22 pm

Haha yeh, thought that's what you had done.

Did we actually get to see Luther Burrell in Argentina? Did he play in the mixed 15 game?

by bluestonevedder Tue 09 Jul 2013, 3:23 pm

Cyril wrote:Leeeeeeeeeeerooooy Jenkinnnnns!

by Skyler Tue 09 Jul 2013, 3:44 pm

We really could do with more cover at tight head and no 8. Other than that I think Lancaster will be happy with the way his squads developing.
Not so much what Lancaster learnt but what a lot of fledgling England internationals learnt.
One thing I do hope Lancaster learnt from garland to be ruthless in selecting the best team for each game as he sees it. .

by lostinwales Tue 09 Jul 2013, 4:05 pm

If Wade is the future I wonder how much the other nations have learned about his box of tricks from training with him for a few weeks

by MotelMoneyMurderMadness Tue 09 Jul 2013, 4:06 pm

I do worry Englands pack is becoming too lightweight and we were certainly out muscled by the Welsh. I grew up watching huge English packs and one of my favourite back row combinations was Rodber, Richards and Clarke. Those were the days...

by HammerofThunor Tue 09 Jul 2013, 4:23 pm

lostinwales wrote:If Wade is the future I wonder how much the other nations have learned about his box of tricks from training with him for a few weeks

If they learnt enough from a couple of weeks training to nullify him he would never make it as an international beyond a couple of games.

by Looseheaded Tue 09 Jul 2013, 4:33 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
beshocked wrote:I don't think Croft should be discarded. I just think he needs to be used properly. Easier said than done.

The backrow that got spanked by Wales had very poor balance - Wood is not a no 8 for example. Croft is not your typical 6.

Morgan has proved himself to be a very important player for England.

Croft functioned properly when paired with Robshaw and Morgan.

I think the Lions tour told Lancaster that balance is key.

Parling should be retained as should all involved on the tour except for Stevens.

Disagree 100% with your selections B, far too many lightweight kitty cats

Hookers should be Webber and Hartley.
TH Props - Wilson and Stevens
Second Rows - Attwood, Borthwick, Launchbury & Lawes
Blindsides - Wood and Haskell

award for funniest post goes to LondonTiger for suggesting Stevens should be England tighthead

by **LondonTiger** Tue 09 Jul 2013, 4:34 pm

MotelMoneyMurderMadness wrote:I do worry Englands pack is becoming too lightweight and we were certainly out muscled by the Welsh. I grew up watching huge English packs and one of my favourite back row combinations was Rodber, Richards and Clarke. Those were the days...

One of the least balanced back rows ever. Whilst that back row was good enough to ride roughshod over NH opponents, it came up rather short against the best teams.

Dick Best did like big boys.

by jeffwinger Tue 09 Jul 2013, 4:36 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
beshocked wrote:I don't think Croft should be discarded. I just think he needs to be used properly. Easier said than done.

The backrow that got spanked by Wales had very poor balance - Wood is not a no 8 for example. Croft is not your typical 6.

Morgan has proved himself to be a very important player for England.

Croft functioned properly when paired with Robshaw and Morgan.

I think the Lions tour told Lancaster that balance is key.

Parling should be retained as should all involved on the tour except for Stevens.

Disagree 100% with your selections B, far too many lightweight kitty cats

Hookers should be Webber and Hartley.
TH Props - Wilson and Stevens
Second Rows - Attwood, Borthwick, Launchbury & Lawes
Blindsides - Wood and Haskell

Would pay to see Cockerill's reaction. He'd be stuck between elation at the prospect of no international injuries and horror at his guys being overlooked. I think he'd just spontaneously combust.

by MotelMoneyMurderMadness Tue 09 Jul 2013, 5:33 pm

LT, I think that back row played in the side that beat the All Blacks at Twickenham in 1993.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 09 Jul 2013, 5:41 pm

MotelMoneyMurderMadness wrote:LT, I think that back row played in the side that beat the All Blacks at Twickenham in 1993.

It did, though that was a pretty poor Kiwi back row - 6 Joseph, 7 zinzan (never a 7) 8 Pene. whip forward to 95 and the Kiwi back row was 6 Brewer, 7 Kronfeld, 8 Zinzan - much more balance.

If Dick best had been in charge in 2003, Hill and Best would have been in the wilderness and Dayglo at 7.

(ps some of the other Kiwis in that 93 team were not the greatest - Stu forster and Marc ellis at halfback, clarke at 12, Timu at 15).

by MotelMoneyMurderMadness Tue 09 Jul 2013, 5:47 pm

You can only play what's in front of you I suppose, but no All Black side is a pushover. I accept your point about Best and Back though. No too sure about Hill though. Hes not a small bloke.

by DeludedOptimistorjustDave Tue 09 Jul 2013, 5:51 pm

No offence but the last thing Lancaster needs to do is learn from Gatland,
Lancaster is a proven class ,WORLD CLASS coach just ask the All Blacks NewZealand Kiwis.

by MotelMoneyMurderMadness Tue 09 Jul 2013, 6:09 pm

Great point Deluded. I'm sure Lancaster is scoffing at Gatland's successes as a coach.

by Skyler Tue 09 Jul 2013, 8:56 pm

None taken deluded.
Not sure i rate Lancaster as world class yet. He is still a very new international coach.
He's made a few mistakes and I hope learnt from them. My point is gatland has mad e mistakes at most stages. He learnt on the hoof and the lions did enough for series win.

Lancaster has learnt about being lightweight in the pack. Playing players out of position From gatland he can learn about vinapolas scrummaging youngs slightly small for a hooker farrels ability to play flat etc. but most importantly don't go into a top game with a light weight pack. . He's trusted a wider squad and crucially give a few players a rest. Good decisions that will be very important as we approach WC17
I hope I to am able to call him world class because we would have just won the World Cup.

by kingelderfield Tue 09 Jul 2013, 9:02 pm

England will need all the luck to win anything with Lancaster. Don't forget Argintina aside (development) he has seen his sides (selections) trampled by Wales to lose the 6N's and wangled by South Africa to lose last summer's tour 2.5 to .5
Does Lancaster have the capacity to learn from his experience and deliver a world cup winning England......simply no.
Lancaster is the selection failure and should never have been appointed...RFU...rather fiddling usless....Johnson and Lancaster both untried, untested, void of even premier league coaching experience...stuffed blazers.
Thank the sky above for the Geoff. Honestly our only hope is for Lancaster to walk away pronto.

by ChequeredJersey Tue 09 Jul 2013, 9:05 pm

kingelderfield wrote:England will need all the luck to win anything with Lancaster. Don't forget Argintina aside (development) he has seen his sides (selections) trampled by Wales to lose the 6N's and wangled by South Africa to lose last summer's tour 2.5 to .5
Does Lancaster have the capacity to learn from his experience and deliver a world cup winning England......simply no.
Lancaster is the selection failure and should never have been appointed...RFU...rather fiddling usless....Johnson and Lancaster both untried, untested, void of even premier league coaching experience...stuffed blazers.
Thank the sky above for the Geoff. Honestly our only hope is for Lancaster to walk away pronto.

How can you say that with any certainty? (Also Lancaster was a tried and tested coach at both International B level and Club level)

by kingelderfield Tue 09 Jul 2013, 9:26 pm

1 yr leeds doR and a few churchill cups......right u r

by nathan Tue 09 Jul 2013, 9:27 pm

kingelderfield wrote:England will need all the luck to win anything with Lancaster. Don't forget Argintina aside (development) he has seen his sides (selections) trampled by Wales to lose the 6N's and wangled by South Africa to lose last summer's tour 2.5 to .5
Does Lancaster have the capacity to learn from his experience and deliver a world cup winning England......simply no.
Lancaster is the selection failure and should never have been appointed...RFU...rather fiddling usless....Johnson and Lancaster both untried, untested, void of even premier league coaching experience...stuffed blazers.
Thank the sky above for the Geoff. Honestly our only hope is for Lancaster to walk away pronto.

Who would you of preferred to be in his place. Can't believe you think he's failed, he only been in the job a relatively short time, no way long enough to say he's failed/succeeded.

by majesticimperialman Tue 09 Jul 2013, 9:44 pm

MotelMoneyMurderMadness wrote:Great point Deluded. I'm sure Lancaster is scoffing at Gatland's successes as a coach.

Doesn't Lancaster have some thing scoff about?..After all he did lead England to beat the Abs didn't he? Whistle

When as Gatland ever done that? Rolling Eyes

by kingelderfield Tue 09 Jul 2013, 9:50 pm

You have to make a judgement, apply a presient perspective. Ask yourself honestly and in pure rugby terms, as a coach, what has Lancaster done that enables anyone to think he has what it takes to succeed at the very highest table - and win the world cup, because that is what we're talking about, any other discussion is puerile.
I'm not talking about hoccos media bull Poopie, oh he's created the right culture...I'm talking game changing, master class, world beating - and please please don't offer me the all blacks, the very sick and tired ab's who we beat fair and square one day last autumn.
I'm sorry but the dye is cast. He didn't have a hope and was a fall guy from the start.
Please think about it, why did none of the league coaches want the job? Becuase they know what the rfu is......why be a mug....no i'm sorry Lancaster is not a serious option. Compare and contrast;
Gatland,
Henry,
White,
MacQueen,
Woodward.....

by nathan Tue 09 Jul 2013, 10:06 pm

So what did you expect him to achieve by now?

by ChequeredJersey Tue 09 Jul 2013, 10:32 pm

Frankly it's a disgrace that Lancaster hasn't won a World Cup yet, I expect him to resign straight away

by **Biltong** Tue 09 Jul 2013, 10:34 pm

He hasn't coached a team at the RWC yet. Maybe he'll resign in 2015. Wink

by jeffwinger Tue 09 Jul 2013, 11:03 pm

Whilst I wont back the idea that Lancaster has failed as England coach - it's clearly far to soon to make a judgement either way - I lean towards agreeing with the notion that his appointment was a mistake. It was the result of an absurd bandwagon instigated by rag touting journos and backed by a vocal army of casual fans. So soon after we had all been so quick to denounce the decision to appoint such an inexperienced coach in Johnson we fell right back into the same pattern. Lancaster has been a very good PR face for the RFU. He's an all round good bloke, he seems hot on discipline and he makes all the right noises in the press, while being friendly and open enough that writers tend to look on his work from a positive perspective.

So far I remain unconvinced, but am slowly coming round - albeit slower than I had hoped.

Selections and tactics have generally been poor and while consecutive second places in the Six Nations is just about acceptable, our performances have been poor more often that they have been good. I don't really get how going from winning the 6N playing attacking expansive rugby under Johnson to second place playing Gatlandball-light under Lancaster is viewed as progress by the vast majority of writers. Yes the attitude among the players appears more positive, and they all come across as jolly nice fellows - but that wont win games.

However, this summer's tour has proven that there is scope for progress under this management team. Hopefully the shackles have come loose and they will be confident enough to make positive selections and tactical decisions. The upcoming Autumn Internationals and Six Nations are make or break in my eyes. Selections will be a key indicator. If we see players like Barritt and Goode lining up in the backs then I will fear for our World Cup hopes. But there is still plenty of time for this group to progress in the way we all hope, it has just taken a little longer than it should have done up until this point.

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