IRB to introduce neutral TMOs - Now let's have fully neutral refs.

The IRB are to introduce neutral TMOs now that they have greater powers. As the IRB see the importance of neutrality, is it now time to define what is meant by neutral?

Is a South African S12 referee neutral in game between France and Australia? The Aussie players will be better known to ref and they will understand how they officiate. If Leicester are playing Leinster is a Scottish Rabo referee as neutral as a French ref?

Each league tends to have a style of its own so perhaps a neutral referee should mean a referee from a different country and league to either of the two teams.

There would be few referees capable of reffing top class games if you go as far a your example I think.

I agree. Lets have no repeat of the Farsical sight if a Frenchman who regularly appears in Britain overseeing a deciding clash between A familiar British team and foreigners like the Wallabies.

 SecretFly and his mates want neutral coaches

RubyGuby wrote: SecretFly and his mates want neutered coaches

Fixed

LondonTiger wrote:

RubyGuby wrote: SecretFly and his mates want neutered coaches

Fixed

         Nice one

Just pop out for an evening in the sun and my name gets dropped around the threads liberally by my agent.

Nice work, Ruby... subtle product placement to begin with then a blitz of all the award ceremonies later in the year.  I knew you were the right right guy to manage my fame'n'fortune portfolio.

Now onto the subject of the thread.  Neutrality, like Ruby says, is an impossibility.  It can never happen.  To take the example stated by Exiled:
"If Leicester are playing Leinster is a Scottish Rabo referee as neutral as a French ref?"

The assumption is that the Scottish ref would be more sympathetic to Leinster.  Hmmm, I think refs with a vested interest (as a fan) in a certain competition (Pro12 in this case) would be as liable to be less sympathetic to a rival as they might be inclined to think well of them.

Plus, why should we assume a French coach would be totally neutral in a game against Leicester and Leinster either?  These two sides would only meet in European competition, and therefore the likelihood is that a French side would be in their pool.  Depending on which side the ref considered the stronger side, he might be more inclined to give that stronger side a tougher reffed game.

I really don't think there is a problem with neutrality, as the suggestion of lack of it could be thrown at most officials...including coaches .... but I think the issue is moreso the continuing diversity in rule interpretation.  Refs and TMOs need a common schooling system...not based on local needs and desires but a world wide professional consistency.

 I thought Steve Walsh was very neutral in the 6 Nations, in fact he was stuck in neutral

Neutral referees are ot going to solve a problem that is deeprooted and ill concieved in a set of laws that is so open to interpretation that consistency of rulings are an impossible dream.

The only thing it will possibly do is take away the whinging from supporters that referees are no longer biased, but it won't stop the whinging about referee interpretations.

There is still a perception out there that NH referees favour Nah trams and vice versa.

Simplify the laws. That is the root of the problem.

There's also a view that SH and NH refs favour McCaw.

He is the Golden boy, everyone favours him.

He is in fact the Harry Potter of Rugby Union, invisible cloak and all.  

Biltong wrote:He is the Golden boy, everyone favours him.

He is in fact the Harry Potter of Rugby Union, invisible cloak and all.  

If he's Harry Potter does that make Quade Cooper voldemort?

yappysnap wrote:

Biltong wrote:He is the Golden boy, everyone favours him.

He is in fact the Harry Potter of Rugby Union, invisible cloak and all.  

If he's Harry Potter does that make Quade Cooper voldemort?

 No, just Dennis the Menace.

I think you're getting mixed up with your movies there Bilt...

yappysnap wrote:I think you're getting mixed up with your movies there Bilt...

They're not all featuring in the same Movie mate.

It's impossible to predict or judge bias and neutrality, etc. The bottom line I think is that you should not have someone from the same country as one of the teams (where the two teams represent two different countries in some way). Anything else goes as it will always be possible to find something with the ref that makes them biased.

In the Rabo we often have a situation where the away team gets a ref from their country, I guess as there are not enough refs to go around, e.g. Ospreys playing in Munster may get Nigel Owens. I guess the theory is that it may even up home advantage?! This IMO is wrong and needs changing. Who knows why we have it, but it does open the door to calls of bias so in the Rabo situation I don't see why they can't call on a Aviva Prem or French league ref instead?

To give another example of the difficulty - Scarlets v Ospreys, ref Nigel Owens (Welsh). No problem right? Wrong (according to many)! Owens is good mates with some of the O's off the pitch, admits that the O's are the team he supports, etc. so if we drill down we find potential bias in refereeing all of the time.

What I don't buy though is when a referee's parents are from one country that he is refereeing, and he is from another, that this automatically means he is biased towards the land of his parents (see Allain Rolland the Irishman refereeing Wales v France - sorry Welsh brethren, but I see no problems with this! Claiming bias here I think is clutching at straws).

if you are going to look for a stick to beat the dog with, you will always find it. There will always be some link to suggesting bias, hence in my opinion as I have said many times before the root of the problem lies in the complicated and ambiguity of the laws.

RubyGuby wrote: I thought Steve Walsh was very neutral in the 6 Nations, in fact he was stuck in neutral

If steve Walsh is now fully neutral, does that mean he can referee an ABs test?

I would not mind having less biased Irish ref's in the Rabbo, right know I have said it I'm off before I get tarred and feathered by the Irish members on here.

 

The only way to solve this problem would be to make the 4 officials are from different countries (or leagues). The ref stops play if he thinks an offence has occurred. He consults the two assistants. They come to an agreement or take a vote. I they cannot decide the matter goes to the TMO for a decision. If TMO cannot decide the ref's original decision is accepted. At any time, the assistant refs and/or the TMO can instruct the ref to stop play for a perceived offence. There can be no complaints of bias. Even incompetency can be overcome. Problem solved.  Of course there is the slight drawback that most rugby games would probably last about 5 hours - but surely that's a small price to pay.

LordDowlais wrote:I would not mind having fewer biased Irish ref's in the Rabbo, right know I have said it I'm off before I get tarred and feathered by the Irish members on here.

 

I think they have other fish to fry at the moment!

Fried Gatland on Tarred and Feathered bed of Salad.

Mmmmm, scrumptious!

Biltong wrote:Neutral referees are ot going to solve a problem that is deeprooted and ill concieved in a set of laws that is so open to interpretation that consistency of rulings are an impossible dream.

The only thing it will possibly do is take away the whinging from supporters that referees are no longer biased, but it won't stop the whinging about referee interpretations.

There is still a perception out there that NH referees favour Nah trams and vice versa.

Simplify the laws. That is the root of the problem.

Another good idea would be refs not making up rules. The phrase "take the hit" which refs started using a few years ago has no basis in the rules as there is not supposed to be a hit to take. This is at the root of lots of the scrum problems.

Lets have uniform rules and practices implemented please. I cant stand how rugby has become so dependent on often widely varying interpretations depending on which ref is in charge. It can kill a game. And please can they finally start addressing the basics like crooked feeds into scrums. And its time to bring in ex front row forwards to referee the scrums at scrum time.

+1 on crooked feed

winchester wrote:Lets have uniform rules and practices implemented please. I cant stand how rugby has become so dependent on often widely varying interpretations depending on which ref is in charge. It can kill a game. And please can they finally start addressing the basics like crooked feeds into scrums. And its time to bring in ex front row forwards to referee the scrums at scrum time.

It's always been this way. From memory the IRB was created because Scotland and England couldn't agree on an interpretation. In 1889 the NZ native team left the field in the middle of a game against England and had to be talked into coming back on. And so it's gone on and on. I agree with your point about a common approach to refereeing.

The refs and TMOs aren't the problem. Players cheating is the problem.

I don't think I have seen a game with a 'biased' ref, in terms of deliberately favouring one team over another. There will always be things that are not spotted by officials owing to the speed of the game. That's the way it is.

Show me someone who complains about a ref in any particular match and that person's team will have invariably lost. Plus, coaches and players should be gagged from commenting on officials during, and after matches. Put their report in and let the particular governing body take action if it sees fit.