Liston Vs Foreman

Who comes out on top when two of the most menacing HW champs of all time go head to head?

On paper these two match up pretty well, both physically and in terms of fighting style. Both have serious knock out power, sturdy chins and both had an aura of invincibility in their primes. George would be mentally tougher, although Liston had the more refined boxing skills. Foreman usually features higher on the ATG lists. Both are probably more widely known for their losses to Ali than for their own stellar careers.

I see George coming out and not taking a step back, swarming Sonny with his big looping shots. But Sonny was a calm and composed fighter in the ring and see him finding a regular home for his jab. As the fight goes on Georges begins to miss more and more and Liston punishes him to the head and body before taking him out late. He was just a more well rounded fighter, more relaxed in the ring and had the tools to beat Big George provided he weathered the early onslaught.

Prime vs prime who takes it?

What a matchup.......On my bill along with Marciano v Holy at cruiser and Johnson v Louis...

I fancy Foreman early or Liston late.........As with most Foreman matchups........

Liston had a great jab but could he fight on the back foot...It would take a brave man to stand in front of George....who could bang with either hand....

I'll go Big George ko 2..........But wouldn't bet the house on it..not that it's mine to bet..

I'm a big fan of these guys, but history has certainly been kinder to Foreman. Liston got into the IBHOF AFTER Floyd Patterson, a man who lasted a total of 2 mins 15 seconds with him across two fights.

Foreman has said of his sparring with Liston that he couldn't back Liston up, but Foreman always gives everybody else credit before himself. I fear Foreman's wide, wild shots would be the wrong attack to take out Liston, whose own power punches were far more "correct". The shortest route between two points is, of course, a straight line.

Foreman certainly has the necessary firepower to take out any fighter in history, but Liston is just as likely to do it in round ten as he is in one, Foreman's chances go down as the rounds go up.

Liston's boxing s are underrated. He slipped punches far better than he gets credit for and I don't think I'd pick any non-runner to beat him apart from maybe Louis if he can keep his chin safe.

So I back Liston by KO around the half way mark in a barn burner. The man v the boy.

Whilst you make good points.........Your analysis is all based on Sonny being able to stand in front of Foreman.... and as Foreman punched harder and Sonny's heart could be questionable it is a pretty big statement.....

Frazier though lacking the jab of Liston was shoved back and demolished...Holmes who had a great jab couldn't stand in front of Tyson and deliver it.....

I just think something will give and Foreman was probably stronger and definitely hit harder..

all about whether Liston can dodge a bullet and establish a jab.....

Iim not sure he was a good enough boxer to do it........He was certainly not the greatest head mover....However If he lasts five I'd fancy him..

Who knows though..........You could be right.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Frazier though lacking the jab of Liston was shoved back and demolished...Holmes who had a great jab couldn't stand in front of Tyson and deliver it.....

I just think something will give and Foreman was probably stronger and definitely hit harder..

Liston was a good deal bigger than Frazier though? He was a bit of a freak physically really. 84 inch reach, 18 inch neck and from what I read the size of his hands bordered on the ridiculous.

Also you know as well as I do that it was a far from his best Holmes that couldn't get the jab going vs Tyson. I don't think Mike gets the credit he deserves for that win but still a past his best Holmes.

I agree that Foreman was probably stronger and hit harder but there wouldn't be a whole lot in it.

I rate Foreman at his best as a top 10 atg heavy, but Liston was a wrecking machine with much better skills than he is given credit for and i think he would put Foreman away after three of the greatest rounds in history. I dont think Liston gets the respect he deserves and i think at his peak he destroys just about any heavyweight that's ever lived except Ali and maybe even him if he had been younger and not entangled with the murkier side of the sport, i know many will laugh at that statement, but at his best he was that good and i rate him incredibly highly.

Ken Norton 100kg.........Liston 99kg........

You not think Liston could end up like Kenny ............

Foreman punched hard and someone has to go backwards and I don't think it would be hard as a bullet punching Foreman..

Not a chance Sonny walked through Cleveland Williams at his best who was one of the best punchers ever and as big and powerful a unit as George, and that was before Williams got shot which effected him badly in later fights. The fighter Liston beat twice bore no resemblance to the shell Ali destroyed.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Ken Norton 100kg.........Liston 99kg........

You not think Liston could end up like Kenny ............

Foreman punched hard and someone has to go backwards and I don't think it would be hard as a bullet punching Foreman..

Not really. Even though Kenny was build like a Greek god Liston was just sturdier. Obviously with Foreman there's always a chance you get blown away early but think Liston was strong and savvy enough to survive an early onslaught.

Sonny Liston vs Foreman - my two favorite heavyweights not named Vitali... I just dont think Foreman can beat Sonny... I mean, a Foreman win wouldnt be a Rocky-esque triumph of the underdog, he hits hard enough to get Sonny out of there. But Sonny is just better than him at so many things, I think he will win.

There is no way Cleveland williams was as big,powerful and as damaging a puncher as Liston...

Foreman lands Liston goes..

Think you are under estimating Liston's chin a touch, Trussy.

Although Foreman ranks higher in my top 10 list in a head to head it would be Liston for mebetter puncher and boxer.
Liston holds all the cards here stylistically.

I would be as confident of him winning as you ever really can be with this type of fight.

Every time Foreman throws one of those wide punches, he will get a straight one thrown back down the spout. Liston will most likley finish what Lyle started. If Big George attempts to walk him down he'll should expect more than a ringing head in the morning.

Cheers Rodders

Yes but somebody has to come forward.........and who did against Big George ??????

The whole premise Liston justs stands his ground throwing jabs while Foreman tees off with murderous punches is laughable...

Liston was no master-boxer.........

No one stood in front of Foreman.........Only Boxers got the better of him and Liston was no-BOXER!!

Liston wasn't a fancy dan rattling combinations off Truss, but he was lovely technician.

Liston isn't significantly quicker than foreman. He will seek to jab and pound. The two will meet in the middle of the ring and foreman will push his Poopie in.
Ill grant He probaly isn't quicker than Foreman but his counters are much straighter and more precise.

If Liston had been born with limited, he could still have been a ranked contender, based on technique.

Liston would be sly enough to back away, and make Foreman come to him, so he could set up his traps.

It's not one I'd part much money on in confidence of the result, but Liston holds all the cards for me/ well most of them.

Cheers Rodders

Liston for me.

Was watching Forman v Lyle only yesterday. George really was an ugly fighter but brutal at it. Liston although a tremendous puncher like George could still do the basics like set up his right hand with that long jab of his.

Great fight, Liston in 4.

I think Liston wins because of those reasons outlined above and because of his unhurried style. Precise puncher and moves so little a large part of Georges armoury (pushing the fighter back to give himself room to swing) is negated. The crisp jab followed by a meaty right hand is enough to stop big George from getting into his feeding frenzy. That Said I could just as easily see Liston getting hurt and being stopped by a rampant George.

Rodney wrote:Liston wasn't a fancy dan rattling combinations off Truss, but he was lovely technician.

Liston isn't significantly quicker than foreman. He will seek to jab and pound. The two will meet in the middle of the ring and foreman will push his Poopie in.
Ill grant He probaly isn't quicker than Foreman but his counters are much straighter and more precise.

If Liston had been born with limited, he could still have been a ranked contender, based on technique.

Liston would be sly enough to back away, and make Foreman come to him, so he could set up his traps.

It's not one I'd part much money on in confidence of the result, but Liston holds all the cards for me/ well most of them.

Cheers Rodders

You know your stuff and is a pleasure debating with you........I just see Foreman shoving him back that's all and Sonny getting caught eventually and going.........

One chance he's got is to establish the jab but he'd have to stand his ground to do that and avoid getting tagged ...

But who knows..........Not meant for you Rodd .......but I do love it when posters come on here saying Foreman and Tyson are easy nights for Lewis and others......

You go through hell to beat Foreman and Tyson in their pomp and Liston would have to........

He'd certainly have a chance If he could get over the initial onslaught...Big If though..

Goes past 5.........liston wins.

ShahenshahG wrote:I think Liston wins because of those reasons outlined above and because of his unhurried style. Precise puncher and moves so little a large part of Georges armoury (pushing the fighter back to give himself room to swing) is negated. The crisp jab followed by a meaty right hand is enough to stop big George from getting into his feeding frenzy. That Said I could just as easily see Liston getting hurt and being stopped by a rampant George.

All dependent If Liston can be the first boxer to stand his ground with foreman..........Norton couldn't....

Because he didn't move side to side wasn't fast and couldn't fight on the back foot...

Liston is made more for George in my opinion.........It's the Jack Johnson's..........Larry Holmes types who give George nightmares..

Thanks Truss likewise.

Foreman gives any fighter in history a helluva handful, his superb comeback in the 90s proves this.

Foreman can cut the ring off really well and if he does this early enough and pounds Sonny in the early exchanges that's he's best chance, the way I see it anyway.

Cheers Rodders

Not many people realise that Forman although he is seen as this big murderous puncher has low confidence issues. He never looked at himself as the big punching destroyer as everyone else did. He questioned himself in both the Frazier and Ali fights and only implemented what he did in training come fight time. It worked against Frazier but Ali outfoxed him.

I wonder how he would do against one of the biggest intimidating fighters ever in Liston?

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Not many people realise that Forman although he is seen as this big murderous puncher has low confidence issues. He never looked at himself as the big punching destroyer as everyone else did. He questioned himself in both the Frazier and Ali fights and only implemented what he did in training come fight time. It worked against Frazier but Ali outfoxed him.

I wonder how he would do against one of the biggest intimidating fighters ever in Liston?

Confidence issues or not Frazier and Norton were great wins as was the Lyle snatch.........I imagine Frazier was intimidating after all he'd just beaten Ali and cleaned up at heavy beforehand .......

Remember to Liston quit against Ali probably twice.........So he wasn't 100% in the heart dept..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Not many people realise that Forman although he is seen as this big murderous puncher has low confidence issues. He never looked at himself as the big punching destroyer as everyone else did. He questioned himself in both the Frazier and Ali fights and only implemented what he did in training come fight time. It worked against Frazier but Ali outfoxed him.

I wonder how he would do against one of the biggest intimidating fighters ever in Liston?

Confidence issues or not Frazier and Norton were great wins as was the Lyle snatch.........I imagine Frazier was intimidating after all he'd just beaten Ali and cleaned up at heavy beforehand .......

Remember to Liston quit against Ali probably twice.........So he wasn't 100% in the heart dept..

But he never faced anyone qiute like Ali before.

Forman would stand infront of him. Great fight but Liston by 4

But would Liston stand in front of Foreman......No one else did Frazier and Norton tried too....I imagine Foreman might be letting his hands go....

Ali had tremendous heart and a granite chin in the 70s........Would Liston go through the pain barrier like that ??

Lyle stood in front of Forman look what happened. Had Forman in trouble in the second round and had it not been for some SHOCKING time keeping with the 2nd round lasting only 2 minutes then Lyle most prob of won that fight.

I think Foreman is massively overrated in h2h terms (I have certainly been guilty of it).  

He was handled very easily by an old Ali, beaten by Young and was within an inch of being stopped by Lyle. A sharp boxer mover who is not afraid to spoil and hold in the early rounds would have always given him trouble because he was so slow.

Liston was no boxer mover, but I see Liston's ramrod jab as being the difference. He'd use it to set George up and take him out by early.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:There is no way Cleveland williams was as big,powerful and as damaging a puncher as Liston...

Foreman lands Liston goes..

Physically they are nearly identical and both scored huge amounts of KOs.
Williams was 6'3 and weighed in at 220lbs and was widely regarded as one of the most devastating punchers of all time
Foreman was 6'4 and weighed in ar 220lbs and was widely regarded as one of the most devastating punchers of all time
Williams hit Sonny with everything but the kitchen sink and Liston just kept coming through him, as said in my other post this was before he got shot by the Police after which he was never the same fighter again. Williams at that stage of his career was at his peak would have likely gone on to dominate the division if he had not been derailed by Liston.
Liston would have took plenty of shots but other than the aged end of career Sonny he would have kept coming and his power and strength was just as good as George, difference is his chin was iron and his skills better. George would not have lived with him.

Lyle could move side to side......

Williams wasn't as wide and strong as Foreman..

I will have to agree to disagree with you on that one mate, he weighed the same and was an inch shorter without an once of fat on him if anything he was wider and as strong as a bull he also possess much quicker hands than George. I very much doubt Big Georges chin would have stood up to the onslaught that Liston's did in the Williams fight. Lyle was nowhere near the class of Liston or even the big cat at his best and he had Foreman beat but for some dubious timekeeping.

Look I weigh the same as Tyson did and am in good condition..But there is no way I could push him back..

Look at the two builds on youtube Mate.....Let's not agree to disagree because there is no way Williams is as strong as Foreman look at his skinny legs.....

He was little shorter and weighed the same Truss his legs were bit skinnier but his upper body was huge and hard muscle George who was a little softer in the upper body in comparison.
Not that any of this really matters at the end of the day Sonny was just too good for Foreman in my opinion and had too much in all departments. It is one of those all time fantasy fights that i would have paid anything to see and the fact we all have different opinions on what would happen is what makes this the great sport it is.

If cleveland williams met in the center of the ring with George who would be forced backwards.......

I just don't think you can be serious Mate..He was a different fighter to Foreman anyway...

Foreman was a force of nature.......

If Holmes weighed 216 and Tyson did who gets forced back ???

are ya dizzy blaad

Both monsters,much has been made of how good a chin Liston had,but Foreman was only ever stopped once in a 81 fight career, so he wasn't exactly lacking in the chin department himself.

Personally think that Foreman would be looking to end this early and theres going to be no finesse every punch thrown would be to inflict maximum damage, Sonny could win late on, you would assume Foreman would have given his best early on, but Sonny would need that good chin. Its a 50/50 pick em for me, Foreman early Liston late.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Whilst you make good points.........Your analysis is all based on Sonny being able to stand in front of Foreman.... and as Foreman punched harder and Sonny's heart could be questionable it is a pretty big statement.....

Frazier though lacking the jab of Liston was shoved back and demolished...Holmes who had a great jab couldn't stand in front of Tyson and deliver it.....

I just think something will give and Foreman was probably stronger and definitely hit harder..

all about whether Liston can dodge a bullet and establish a jab.....

Iim not sure he was a good enough boxer to do it........He was certainly not the greatest head mover....However If he lasts five I'd fancy him..

Who knows though..........You could be right.

In this instance I don't think Sonny's heart can be questioned. He got rocked in one of the Williams fights and never looked discouraged and Williams had it all but the chin. I'd only question Liston's heart against a moving target that refuses to stand infront of him. I saw an interview with Foreman where he says the three hardest punchers he ever met were Cleveland Williams, Gerry Cooney and Ron Lyle. Williams had a fast left too.

Frazier's a completely different creature to Liston. He had to be head to chest to be truly effective. Liston has longer reach and better timing than Foreman. He can hit Foreman from far enough out that Foreman might not be able to hit him. He doesn't need to wade into shots like Frazier did. I don't think it's Liston who needs to dodge a bullet to get his shots off. It's Foreman.

Washed up Holmes is totally different to Liston. They share great jabs, but Liston was the stronger, heavier handed fighter and Foreman wouldn't be getting under him like Tyson did to Holmes.

Check the Williams fights for a moment where Williams flicks out three or four rapid lefts in succession and Liston slips them all so effortlessly it's hardly noticed.

If Liston fights on the backfoot however, I think he'd be closed down and demolished. It wouldn't be surprising to see Foreman trash anybody in the first three rounds. Liston wouldn't need to brave the pain barrier like Ali did, as he had the power to keep Foreman at bay.

In this instance ???

He hasn't fought foreman....Or are you picking and choosing when he quits..

I'm saying as long as there's a target infront of Liston I don't think he'll quit. Foreman's not gonna make him chase shadows.

Chasing shadows is easier when you can stand your ground..

Frazier/Norton/Holyfield/Cooney/Cooper/Ali couldn't....

Liston though could be the first..

That's what I'm betting on.

Fairplay...........

You won't be surprised that I'm going with Liston, not only do I think that he has the better skills of two, and is the tougher of the two, I think that he'd be the less likely of the two to be intimidated by the prospect of fighting the other. agree with Truss that you go through hell to beat George, but you would have go go through hell to beat Sonny too, and if it is a short sharp shoot out, it's fifty - fifty at best for any combination of Liston , Foreman, Tyson .

No one placing any weight on Alis assurance that Liston was a better boxer/hit harder than george?

I hadn't heard that! Not massively surprising though. Ali rarely gave Foreman much credit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=capwqoGRV_Y there you go mate

When he says "he hit harder than George, his reach is longer than George, he's better boxer than George." ?

That was in the run up to the Foreman fight in fairness where he was trying to convince people he had a prayer. He can't have known for sure at the time.

True - but Ali had a boxers eye and I think he understood instinctively that George was quite less sophisticated than Liston and that helped him strategically in the fight with the rope a dope. I somehow doubt that if it was sonny there - he would have gone to the ropes.

Here he explains why he wouldn't employ the rope a dope against most fighters and the respective merits of each style on their own and against the other.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4H8zXwVbVE

Post event rationalization by Ali in my humble opinion, He went to the ropes cause he had no other option- he had shown nothing in his recent fights at that time to seriously suggest that he could dance around George, and he was never going to force him onto the back foot, and for all his faults, George could cut a ring down. It was a brave, brilliant display from Ali, but I just don't buy the idea that it was a tactical masterpiece. That said I agree that Ali , and many other with the aid of hindsight, could see that George had weakness that were exploitable. Any fighter that arcs their shots like George is at risk to straight counters, just look what Starling did to Honeyghan.

Great match up that paperbag, not one I,d thought of before and even now would be hard pushed to pick a winner. Both big hitters,Liston the better boxer of the two and that left jab was amongst the best ever amongst the heavy weights.Foreman on the other hand was a master at cutting off the ring and was like a mobile wrecking ball whilst doing it. Liston only had three knockout losses, one on his stool against Ali and the other the " phantom punch" also against Ali.Foreman only one knockout also against Ali who wasn't really a devastating puncher. So I think it would be a case of who hits who in the early rounds and Liston by stoppage if it gets past the halfway mark.

i actualy thinks this is a bad match up and foreman wins this early, foreman always at his best when a fighters comes to him which i think liston would. stopped twice against ali who's not the biggest puncher doesn't bode well for liston against one of the biggest hitters out there

foreman has a great chin, his only stoppage was also against ali, i know sounds contradictory but think this was more down to exhaustion and the heat of zaire

compelling and rich wrote:i actualy thinks this is a bad match up and foreman wins this early, foreman always at his best when a fighters comes to him which i think liston would. stopped twice against ali who's not the biggest puncher doesn't bode well for liston against one of the biggest hitters out there

foreman has a great chin, his only stoppage was also against ali, i know sounds contradictory but think this was more down to exhaustion and the heat of zaire

Listons chin was up there with Georges. The OP says both in their primes. Sonny was far removed from his prime by the time he fought Ali and the legitimacy of those fights will always be questioned.

Sonny never stopped in his prime despite breaking his jaw against Marshall I think it was. Don't think Liston would chase George either too clever for that especially when he knows he can outbox him.