Should Ali get more credit for Liston and Foreman ??

You guys know I have Ali number 1 in my ATG list..........For a multitude of reasons one being If you were to draw a picture of your perfect boxer..Speed, skill, Size, ring generalship then this guy like Kelly Brock in Weird science would probably come out of a machine........Then you have his longevity and then you have his opponents........But I have no real beef with guys that have Robbo and Hank higher.......They have a compelling argument.......

However for me one thing missing from Robbo and Hank's career and most others is having to go into the ring as a massive underdog against guys who are known as unbeatable hugely intimidating killers and Ali did that twice or three times to a lesser extent with Frazier......

People forget over time just how intimidating Liston and Foreman were......Many top fighters including the like of Kenny Norton and Patterson were beaten before they set foot in the ring against these two and not forgetting that a plethora (Nice word hey!! Makes me seem intelligent) of scribes wrote him off as green for Liston and over the hill for Foreman !!

As mentioned in a previous article I regard Holy's win over Tyson as the best performance I've ever seen........and like Holy...Ali was 6-1/ 8-1...

We tend to and sometimes I'm the biggest culprit just look at wins retrospectively and say well Gomez was a good win for Sanchez but Nelson beat him soon after and forget Gomez had an intimidating KO record and was a fairly big favorite !!..........Same applies here to a lesser extent...

Ali-Liston/Foreman......Were David v Goliath clashes............and personally I think he should get more credit for showing huge courage, heart and no little skill in beating guys that were "unbeatable monsters" in fairness he does get credit but not enough for me !!..........

For me It was something other top 10 alltimers never had to do......Though let's not doubt they probably stand firm..

Like I say no real beef with their standings....So no disrespect meant at all........

I have Ali somewhere around 3/4 in my ATG list. I give him as much credit for Liston/Foreman as possible, but that doesn't push him above Robinson/Armstrong etc.

I think it'd be hard to give Ali any more credit than he already gets for Foreman really, Truss. It's not as if credit for that win is hard to come by, as it's usually put forward as the greatest and most iconic moment of his career.

Bit trickier with Liston, obviously. Hard to give either man too many plaudits for how the second fight went in my opinion, but the first is hard to figure out. As a pure performance it was arguably Ali's best of the lot, but how old was Liston really? Maybe older than the 31 he was quoted as being at the time, but regardless of the exact truth there, he was only a few months removed from routing Patterson again and hadn't shown any signs of deterioration up until that point, albeit he was becoming slightly inactive.

Was Liston really injured? If you believe the medical reports, then yes. Would it have made any difference to the result? Hard to believe that given how dominant Ali looked (when he had his vision at least!).

For me, the first win over Liston is still a very special one, but not in the same class as his victory over Foreman. George generally gets a higher ranking than Sonny in any case, but when Ali fought Liston it was a young Ali against a (maybe) slightly over the hill opponent, whereas a decade later for the Foreman fight it was an absolute prime wrecking ball taking on a post-peak Ali.

In general, I'd say the credit Ali gets for Liston and Foreman is about right.

That's a fair and valid view Mate...........However I do think what gets lost in time and by many Tyson detractors on here (Overrated by many) Is the balls it takes to not only get in the ring and to take monsters on but the courage and belief it takes to fight your fight and come out on top !!

Truly believe Leonard should get more for Hagler who was an intimidating fighter regardless of the Mugabi fight !!!

Sometimes time drowns out what monsters these guys were.......

But like I say I have Ali number 1.....Yet have no real problem with those that don't agree..

Cheers..

The Foreman win earned him enormous credit -- they even made a film of it (When We Were Kings) that was more or less a love letter to the great man.

The Liston fights were fishy (the second an outright dive) yet I don't believe Ali was in on either of those debacles. He deserves (and receives) immense credit for going in with all of the monsters of his day and continually taking on the toughest challenges possible.

There are plenty of all-time greats who took on fighters considered monsters -- heavyweights do tend to be mythologised far more than lower weight fighters, though.

I don't believe the first one was fixed.......

I don't think any of the other top 5 greats apart from to a lesser extent Leonard-Hagler (6-1)..........Fought "Unbeatable monsters".. Haz...

But thanks for the opinion.........It's more than welcome.

Leonard isn't usually rated a top five great.

Leonard (against Hearns and Hagler), Pep (against Saddler), Duran (against Leonard), Robinson (against LaMotta), Tunney (against Dempsey), Holyfield (against Bowe) -- those are a few that spring to mind. I'm sure there will be more if I have a think.

Whitaker (against Chavez)

Hopkins (against Trinidad)

Frazier (against Ali)

Ali's odds against Foreman were around 3 to 1 against (7 to 1 against Liston).
Holyfield's odds against Tyson were bigger.

hazharrison wrote:Hopkins (against Trinidad)

Not the same.......

Talking about aura around an individual........Chavez and the like didn't have the same aura....

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:Hopkins (against Trinidad)

Not the same.......

Talking about aura around an individual........

Trinidad had that prior to facing Hopkins -- he'd cleaned up welterweight, wiped out light middle and then wiped the floor with Joppy on his middleweight debut. He was a big favourite with bookmakers. Hopkins was the same odds against Trinidad (3 to 1 against) as Ali was against Foreman.

Were you in a coma from 1989-2010?

He didn't have the intimidating aura of a huge Sonny Liston..or even a Joe Louis....

No one thought Trinidad was invincible......

But whatever..

Trinidad got his ears boxed off against DelaHoya didn't he ??

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He didn't have the intimidating aura of a huge Sonny Liston..or even a Joe Louis....

No one thought Trinidad was invincible......

But whatever..

Probably because he wasn't a heavyweight. As stated earlier, heavyweights tend to be far more mythologised than lower weight fighters.

Trinidad was 40-0 going in -- he'd looked a wrecking machine against Vargas, Reid and Joppy.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Trinidad got his ears boxed off against DelaHoya didn't he ??

Not really. He lost most of the early rounds before eking out a decision over the bout's second half.

He won the rounds that Oscar gave to him by coasting..

Great fighter but it's a stretch to suggest he had the intimidating aura of a Liston...Mate.

But we can agree to disagree..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He won the rounds that Oscar gave to him by coasting..

Great fighter but it's a stretch to suggest he had the intimidating aura of a Liston...Mate.

But we can agree to disagree..

Or, Oscar tired from fighting tight and exerting himself more than he'd have liked in order to keep Trinidad off him.

When Liston and Foreman were champs, the heavyweight champion was still the toughest man in the world -- hence their aura. If you think Ali's wins were better because Liston and Foreman had an aura (because they were heavyweights) then fair dues but the odds suggest Trinidad and Foreman were viewed similarly (in terms of their status as favourites) against Hopkins and Ali

No he should get less! Liston was nowhere near his best , even if the fights were on the level, and that's a big if- we might as well give Holmes credit for beating Ali. Liston was dreadful in both fights.
And as for The Foreman fight, I know that I'm in a tiny minority , but I honestly believe that the rope a dope tactic was a myth- Ali fought off the ropes because Foreman put him there- it's not like Ali choose to be there, despite his revisionist explanation. it was a very courageous, and indeed skilled performance by Ali, but he exposed weakness in George that had had been hidden in broad daylight- he had poor defence, telegraphed his punches, wasn't particularly fast. Yes he looked fantastic against the made- to - measure Frazier and Norton, but Ali and Young showed him up.

Not strictly related to the subject, but as we're talking about the golden days of Heavyweight boxing, I see that Jimmy Ellis has died today, aged 74.

Not too many of the golden era Heavyweights still around. R.I.P