Top 10 Greatest fighters of alltime as of September 2013

First topic message reminder :

Kind of a carry on from the Mayweather thread...........

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Ray Robinson
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Harry Greb
5. Floyd Mayweather
6. Ray Leonard
7. Sam Langford (7. Because he never won a world title...)
8. Bob Fitzsimmons
9. Ezzard Charles
10. Charles Burley (re. no 7)

Note that I don't blame Burley and Langford it's politics........But as Montgomerie and Westwood have shown in golf..the Ultimate prize sometimes brings the ultimate pressure..........

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Threading water....I'm a talented guy !!

Liston, Frazier, Foreman are enough reasons...............

Yet you won't knock Floyd for not having that calibre of opposition.


When this love affair with Floyd start? You seem to be late getting on the Flamos train.

Five p4pers you mean............My Grandad always rated Johnny Paychek though.. 

let's not quibble........

I think a better question would be: who didn't he fight? Louis was THE champion for 12 years -- and that wasn't a 12 year championship reign where he fought twice a year (like some modern day fighters -- Floyd included). Louis was a fighting champion.

Mayweather hasn't really dominated a weight division for more than a decade. I note that some posters like to claim he has "dominated the sport", which doesn't make a whole lot of sense (I understand he's one of the best fighters in the world at any weight) but his matchmaking has been highly selective and he's turned down more risk-laden challenges than he's taken.

It's Mayweather's inability to face a threat in their prime and at their best weight that marks him down (he used to, Manfredy, Castillo and Corrales, for example but those days are long gone). All-time greats just don't walk away from a fight with another man who half the world feels is a better boxer -- their ego dictates they stamp their authority.

Leonard and Ali couldn't have stepped around Hearns and Frazier and still slept well at night.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Five p4pers you mean............My Grandad always rated Johnny Paychek though.. 

let's not quibble........

Two old men are the only Floyd opponents that will be remember.

Louis was definitely a skilled crafstman, particularly for a Heavy. Brilliant punch accuracy, classy hand speed, cracking jab. As an attacker he was amazing. But you'll have a hard time convincing me that he was a more talented and skillful operator than Floyd.

Louis was outboxed more than once over sustained periods during his absolute prime years (Schmeling I, Conn I). He had tough struggles in which he only just showed superiority against fighters who shouldn't have even fully extended him (Godoy I, Farr), again in those prime years. You can't really say the same for Floyd.

I know that Louis had an incredible record in rematches, but with Floyd you just know that he's going to figure out guys like that DURING a first fight, rather than needing another stab at it, at least more often than not.

Mayweather's by far the better ring general, has a much better defence and had the superior boxing brain in my opinion. Also much harder to hurt and shake up than Louis, too. Louis was so easy to read first time out against Schmeling that Maxie basically couldn't miss with the right hand every time Joe jabbed. Can't imagine anyone doing that to Mayweather.

Robinson
Greb
Armstrong
Ali
Charles
Langford
R. Leonard
Mayweather
B. Leonard
Tunney

I struggle to split Mayweather and R. Leonard. I could happily have Floyd above Ray and, by the end of Floyd's career, probably will.

For the time being, Ray's wins over Hearns, Hagler, Duran, and Benitez shade Mayweather's top wins / years of dominance, in my opinion.

Pep, Fitzsimmons, Burley just miss out. Obviously none would look out of place in any top 10 list.

Gentleman01 wrote:Robinson
Greb
Armstrong
Ali
Charles
Langford
R. Leonard
Mayweather
B. Leonard
Tunney

I struggle to split Mayweather and R. Leonard. I could happily have Floyd above Ray and, by the end of Floyd's career, probably will.

For the time being, Ray's wins over Hearns, Hagler, Duran, and Benitez shade Mayweather's top wins / years of dominance, in my opinion.

Pep, Fitzsimmons, Burley just miss out. Obviously none would look out of place in any top 10 list.

Struggle to split them based on what? Ability or achievement?

88Chris05 wrote:Louis was definitely a skilled crafstman, particularly for a Heavy. Brilliant punch accuracy, classy hand speed, cracking jab. As an attacker he was amazing. But you'll have a hard time convincing me that he was a more talented and skillful operator than Floyd.

Louis was outboxed more than once over sustained periods during his absolute prime years (Schmeling I, Conn I). He had tough struggles in which he only just showed superiority against fighters who shouldn't have even fully extended him (Godoy I, Farr), again in those prime years. You can't really say the same for Floyd.

I know that Louis had an incredible record in rematches, but with Floyd you just know that he's going to figure out guys like that DURING a first fight, rather than needing another stab at it, at least more often than not.

Mayweather's by far the better ring general, has a much better defence and had the superior boxing brain in my opinion. Also much harder to hurt and shake up than Louis, too. Louis was so easy to read first time out against Schmeling that Maxie basically couldn't miss with the right hand every time Joe jabbed. Can't imagine anyone doing that to Mayweather.

Different types of skill. Floyd is flashier and is difficult to hit cleanly but Louis was a knockout artist - which is the more skilful?

The guy who lands with a near on 50% of his punches while getting hit with less than 20% is by far the more skilled, power isn't a sign of skill.

Yawn, these lists get boring

Louis didn't just have heavy hands - his technique and accuracy in setting up those knockouts is an underrated skill.

Where are those stats from? Louis didn't miss with much himself.

Compubox numbers for his fights against the likes of Marquez and Guerrero.

Louis skill can't possibly be up there with Mayweather otherwise he wouldn't get knocked down by Galento or outboxed by Conn.

Compubox should be taken with a pinch of salt - hardly a measure of someone's worth.

That's a sweeping statement. It's the equivalent of saying: Floyd can't possibly be up there with Louis because he couldn't knock out Robert Guerrero (which is equally nonsensical).

hazharrison wrote:Louis didn't just have heavy hands - his technique and accuracy in setting up those knockouts is an underrated skill.

Where are those stats from? Louis didn't miss with much himself.

So is getting decked by a slob in Galento........

What about Floyd getting beating up by Castillo and getting a gift from the Nevada State Comm.?

Every fighter can have a bad night. At least Louis fought regularly and took on all comers.

Sorry but there is no contest between Louis and Mayweather, the latter has one singular off night whereas Louis had a host of them against very sub par opposition. Farr, Conn, Galento, Schmeling and Walcott don't go in Louis' favour while in return all you can come up with is Castillo in return.

Haz you're completely missing the point, having power is not an indication of power, does that mean Marciano is more skillful than Louis because he knocked Charles and Walcott out?

Saying that Floyd was "beaten up" by Castillo is nothing but daft hyperbole, really. Not at all comparable to Schmeling-Louis I, in which Joe was outboxed and basically outclassed throughout the whole fight. Mayweather was a shade fortunate to escape with an outright win, perhaps (I thought it was very close and, last time I saw it, had it 113-113 for what it's worth, which ain't much I know!) but that is basically the only time he's ever been stretched all the way. Any fighter can have a bad night, I agree, and they all do at some stage, but when one man is having them a fair bit more often than the other, it must tell you something!

You're right mate...and Conn boxed his ears off as well..........Before he got COCKY !!

Why shouldn't power be rated as a skill?

The funny thing about strongy's list is with his reckoning he has Louis above Duran..........

Duran reigned for seven years undisputed...........beat leonard, Cuevas, ran hagler close and won titles at welt, superwelt and midd !!

Utilising power is a skill LJ but I wouldn't rate a puncher over a boxer based purely on his ability to knock somebody out. Mayweather outboxes his opponents for the full 12 rounds 90% of the time and doesn't rely on landing one big shot like Louis did on occasion against Conn and Walcott.

In fairness I'd pick Foreman to knock Louis out in two so maybe power is a skill.......

The fact that a man as skilled, and that achieved as much as Tommy Hearns doesn't make most people's top thirty illustrates just how paper thin the margins between the top fighters in history really are; you can make the cases as you please, but ultimately these lists are pointless. The game has changed so much over the last 100 years that making meaningful comparisons between fighters from different eras is near on impossible, and I've not heard an arguement yet that has made me think otherwise. Why do guys feel the need to make these lists in first place- it's a bit OCD isn't it?

Because it's fun and people like you never offer up anything to talk about..

They aren't as pointless as you..

horizontalhero wrote:The fact that a man as skilled, and that achieved as much as Tommy Hearns doesn't make most people's top thirty illustrates just how paper thin the margins between the top fighters in history really are; you can make the cases as you please, but ultimately these lists are pointless. The game has changed so much over the last 100 years that making meaningful comparisons between fighters from different eras is near on impossible, and I've not heard an arguement yet that has made me think otherwise. Why do guys feel the need to make these lists  in first place- it's a bit OCD isn't it?

Hearns lost his biggest fights - that goes against him.

On his night, there aren't many welterweights who could have beaten him but that's distinctly different to rating what he achieved.

The Terror of Tylorstown wrote:Sorry but there is no contest between Louis and Mayweather, the latter has one singular off night whereas Louis had a host of them against very sub par opposition. Farr, Conn, Galento, Schmeling and Walcott don't go in Louis' favour while in return all you can come up with is Castillo in return.

Haz you're completely missing the point, having power is not an indication of power, does that mean Marciano is more skillful than Louis because he knocked Charles and Walcott out?

Floyd came within a smidge of being stopped by a fossilised Shane Mosely and didn't have everything his own way against Corley, Castillo, Augustus, Judah and a shopworn Miguel Cotto.

A smidge of being stopped? You mean a smidge of being knocked down?

Everyone has an opinion, I respect that but the ringside fans booing when Mayweathers name was called was telling.

Lederman had the fight 115-111 to Castillo.

Larry Merchant said post fight Castillo should have won but the "House Fighter" was gifted the decision.

The compubox scores heavily come out in Castillo's favour. Although I take Compubox with a pinch of salt Castillo's stats are so very superior it tells the story.


I have yet to read a respected published historian who places Floyd ahead of Louis. People are blinded by Floyd but in time his star will fade. I'm just glad the vast vast majority rate Louis for how good he was, all the respected published historians do. In his day Louis was more famous than Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods. The planets premier sportsman.

This guy in 6 video, first one below, has picked the fight apart and stops the video of the fight every time there is significant punches landed to show all the punches landed in slow motion. Watching these videos proves what was already obvious to most observers and that is Floyd lost that fight.

Have a look at the Mayweather v Castillo video analysis.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkqMKGdi4LU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Louis gets credit for rematch performances, so to be fair we should give Floyd credit for how he performed in the Castillo rematch, no?

Not really what I was getting at Haz, my point was that to try to aseparate and rank the best fighters in over a hundred yeas of boxing history, especially when they have fought in vastly different eras is futile, and I just don't get why anyone would feel the need to do so.

Strongback wrote:Everyone has an opinion, I respect that but the ringside fans booing when Mayweathers name was called was telling.

Lederman had the fight 115-111 to Castillo.

Larry Merchant said post fight Castillo should have won but the "House Fighter" was gifted the decision.

The compubox scores heavily come out in Castillo's favour. Although I take Compubox with a pinch of salt Castillo's stats are so very superior it tells the story.


I have yet to read a respected published historian who places Floyd ahead of Louis.  People are blinded by Floyd but in time his star will fade.  I'm just glad the vast vast majority rate Louis for how good he was, all the respected published historians do.  In his day Louis was more famous than Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods.  The planets premier sportsman.

This guy in 6 video, first one below, has picked the fight apart and stops the video of the fight every time there is significant punches landed to show all the punches landed in slow motion.  Watching these videos proves what was already obvious to most observers and that is Floyd lost that fight.

Have a look at the Mayweather v Castillo video analysis.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkqMKGdi4LU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Lederman has scored plenty of fights wrong and we all know Merchant loves Floyd..

Anyway what happened in the rematch..

The only slap you can give Floyd is a fight he won..

Ko12 Schmelling
Ko8 Marciano
L15 Charles

and a gift against walcott we haven't brought up that was worse than Castillo..

FLOYD W12 CASTILLO...........and I love it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Honeyghan was up on compubox on Starling

horizontalhero wrote:Not really what I was getting at Haz, my point was that to try to aseparate and rank  the best fighters in over a hundred yeas of boxing history, especially when they have fought in vastly different eras is futile, and I just don't get why anyone would feel the need to do so.

Judging by your posting history........which shows that over a third of the threads you post on are mine..

If the first page is anything to go by..

I'll assume it's a pop at the OP.......If not well I'm sorry you don't "GET" it..

Scottrff wrote:Louis gets credit for rematch performances, so to be fair we should give Floyd credit for how he performed in the Castillo rematch, no?

Hardly one of his better nights. He was never as bold in terms of the fights he picked after that scare.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Strongback wrote:Everyone has an opinion, I respect that but the ringside fans booing when Mayweathers name was called was telling.

Lederman had the fight 115-111 to Castillo.

Larry Merchant said post fight Castillo should have won but the "House Fighter" was gifted the decision.

The compubox scores heavily come out in Castillo's favour. Although I take Compubox with a pinch of salt Castillo's stats are so very superior it tells the story.


I have yet to read a respected published historian who places Floyd ahead of Louis.  People are blinded by Floyd but in time his star will fade.  I'm just glad the vast vast majority rate Louis for how good he was, all the respected published historians do.  In his day Louis was more famous than Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods.  The planets premier sportsman.

This guy in 6 video, first one below, has picked the fight apart and stops the video of the fight every time there is significant punches landed to show all the punches landed in slow motion.  Watching these videos proves what was already obvious to most observers and that is Floyd lost that fight.

Have a look at the Mayweather v Castillo video analysis.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkqMKGdi4LU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Lederman has scored plenty of fights wrong and we all know Merchant loves Floyd..

Anyway what happened in the rematch..

The only slap you can give Floyd is a fight he won..

Ko12 Schmelling
Ko8 Marciano
L15 Charles

and a gift against walcott we haven't brought up that was worse than Castillo..

FLOYD W12 CASTILLO...........and I love it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Honeyghan was up on compubox on Starling

Watch the video and learn my son. Listen to the crowd booing the decision.


Louis has one loss in his prime. The other losses happened when he was long past done and anyway one is against a Top 5 p4p ATG according to people's Top 10's in this thread.

horizontalhero wrote:Not really what I was getting at Haz, my point was that to try to aseparate and rank  the best fighters in over a hundred yeas of boxing history, especially when they have fought in vastly different eras is futile, and I just don't get why anyone would feel the need to do so.

Surely it's part of the sport's appeal?

Five p4pers...Who did Hagler defend against again ??? Hearns!! one top guy who'd never fought at midddle before...

Didn't fancy Spinks though..

Louis lost to the best heavies he fought..

Strongback wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Strongback wrote:Everyone has an opinion, I respect that but the ringside fans booing when Mayweathers name was called was telling.

Lederman had the fight 115-111 to Castillo.

Larry Merchant said post fight Castillo should have won but the "House Fighter" was gifted the decision.

The compubox scores heavily come out in Castillo's favour. Although I take Compubox with a pinch of salt Castillo's stats are so very superior it tells the story.


I have yet to read a respected published historian who places Floyd ahead of Louis.  People are blinded by Floyd but in time his star will fade.  I'm just glad the vast vast majority rate Louis for how good he was, all the respected published historians do.  In his day Louis was more famous than Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods.  The planets premier sportsman.

This guy in 6 video, first one below, has picked the fight apart and stops the video of the fight every time there is significant punches landed to show all the punches landed in slow motion.  Watching these videos proves what was already obvious to most observers and that is Floyd lost that fight.

Have a look at the Mayweather v Castillo video analysis.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkqMKGdi4LU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Lederman has scored plenty of fights wrong and we all know Merchant loves Floyd..

Anyway what happened in the rematch..

The only slap you can give Floyd is a fight he won..

Ko12 Schmelling
Ko8 Marciano
L15 Charles

and a gift against walcott we haven't brought up that was worse than Castillo..

FLOYD W12 CASTILLO...........and I love it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Honeyghan was up on compubox on Starling

Watch the video and learn my son.  Listen to the crowd booing the decision.


Louis has one loss in his prime.  The other losses happened when he was long past done and anyway one is against a Top 5 p4p ATG according to people's Top 10's in this thread.

You've got no argument have you..............go to bed..

People booed Nunn all the time after he won..

A p4p'er doesn't count if he's a geriatric. How many were prime p4p?


I posted the list up yesterday between 2006 and 2010 Floyd fought none of the prime leading welterweights.

Can we have a balance on this, it is possible to be a fan of one without having to massively downplay the other.

Strongback wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Strongback wrote:Everyone has an opinion, I respect that but the ringside fans booing when Mayweathers name was called was telling.

Lederman had the fight 115-111 to Castillo.

Larry Merchant said post fight Castillo should have won but the "House Fighter" was gifted the decision.

The compubox scores heavily come out in Castillo's favour. Although I take Compubox with a pinch of salt Castillo's stats are so very superior it tells the story.


I have yet to read a respected published historian who places Floyd ahead of Louis.  People are blinded by Floyd but in time his star will fade.  I'm just glad the vast vast majority rate Louis for how good he was, all the respected published historians do.  In his day Louis was more famous than Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods.  The planets premier sportsman.

This guy in 6 video, first one below, has picked the fight apart and stops the video of the fight every time there is significant punches landed to show all the punches landed in slow motion.  Watching these videos proves what was already obvious to most observers and that is Floyd lost that fight.

Have a look at the Mayweather v Castillo video analysis.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkqMKGdi4LU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Lederman has scored plenty of fights wrong and we all know Merchant loves Floyd..

Anyway what happened in the rematch..

The only slap you can give Floyd is a fight he won..

Ko12 Schmelling
Ko8 Marciano
L15 Charles

and a gift against walcott we haven't brought up that was worse than Castillo..

FLOYD W12 CASTILLO...........and I love it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Honeyghan was up on compubox on Starling

Watch the video and learn my son.  Listen to the crowd booing the decision.


Louis has one loss in his prime.  The other losses happened when he was long past done and anyway one is against a Top 5 p4p ATG according to people's Top 10's in this thread.

Equivalent of holding Spinks, Berbick and Holmes against Ali (not to mention the favourable decisions he received against Norton - twice - and Young -- maybe even Jones and Shavers).

Robinson
Armstrong
Ali
Greb
Langford
Charles
R Leonard
Duran
Jofre
Gans

hazharrison wrote:

Gentleman01 wrote:Robinson
Greb
Armstrong
Ali
Charles
Langford
R. Leonard
Mayweather
B. Leonard
Tunney

I struggle to split Mayweather and R. Leonard. I could happily have Floyd above Ray and, by the end of Floyd's career, probably will.

For the time being, Ray's wins over Hearns, Hagler, Duran, and Benitez shade Mayweather's top wins / years of dominance, in my opinion.

Pep, Fitzsimmons, Burley just miss out. Obviously none would look out of place in any top 10 list.

Struggle to split them based on what? Ability or achievement?

Combination of both, as with all lists of historical rankings. I consider both to have comparable ability, perhaps would argue that Floyd is the slightly more skilled. In terms of achievements I rate SRL's slightly above Floyd's, his best wins are outstanding.

Truss, I wasn't having a pop, but asking how you even start to compare the likes of say, Fitzsimmons to FMJ . ESP given that there's almost no footage of Fitz, that most of us don't even know how many boxers were even around in those days, how difficult it was to make fights given how difficult travel was, how the fighter got rated, how different the styles were etc , I honest don't know where you would start, what allowances you have to make for our lack of real knowledge , as opposed to read, of the early boxers, and so on. I would be interested to know how you come up with your rating when you are comparing such fighters- would you concede that it is pretty difficult to rate fighter that you have never seen fight, or have only seen on the most grainy, scratchy film? Rather than being so defensive, please try and address the point I was making that you are essentially comparing the incomparable.

Gentleman01 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Gentleman01 wrote:Robinson
Greb
Armstrong
Ali
Charles
Langford
R. Leonard
Mayweather
B. Leonard
Tunney

I struggle to split Mayweather and R. Leonard. I could happily have Floyd above Ray and, by the end of Floyd's career, probably will.

For the time being, Ray's wins over Hearns, Hagler, Duran, and Benitez shade Mayweather's top wins / years of dominance, in my opinion.

Pep, Fitzsimmons, Burley just miss out. Obviously none would look out of place in any top 10 list.

Struggle to split them based on what? Ability or achievement?

Combination of both, as with all lists of historical rankings. I consider both to have comparable ability, perhaps would argue that Floyd is the slightly more skilled. In terms of achievements I rate SRL's slightly above Floyd's, his best wins are outstanding.

Everyones entitled to their opinion but Leornards the most skilled boxer I've ever seen, nothing he couldn't do.

Think I am with you on Leonard Nico, certainly in my lifetime or in terms of guys I could say I have seen a decent amount of Leonard is top of the pile. People often mention how he got his tactics wrong in the first Duran fight and I would largely agree, but despite this he was able to lose by little more than a whisker fighting on the inside with one of the greatest pressure in-fighters ever. Remarkable fighter, brilliant speed, movement and cannot think of anyone who put his punches together better, am sure Dave Boy Green would be only too quick to agree.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You're right mate...and Conn boxed his ears off as well..........Before he got COCKY !!

Garbage, watch the fight. It was a very close contest, don't know where this preconceived idea comes from that Louis was being outboxed he wasn't , Louis struggled more with guys who crowded him rather than boxers. He's record speaks for it's self a record number of defences against guys ranked no 1 by the ring.

Cheers Rodders

Rodney wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You're right mate...and Conn boxed his ears off as well..........Before he got COCKY !!

Garbage, watch the fight. It was a very close contest, don't know where this preconceived idea comes from that Louis was being outboxed he wasn't , Louis struggled more with guys who crowded him rather than boxers. He's record speaks for it's self a record number of defences against guys ranked no 1 by the ring.

Cheers Rodders

HYPOCRITE ALERT!!

Joe Louis STRUGGLED with Conn and was LOSING the fight. Same Hypocrites say Louis fought top ranked guys but HATE on Mayweather beating Marquez, Hatton and Mosely all RANKED top TEN fighters when Money May SCHOOLED them.

Joe Louis STRUGGLES to beat a small LIGHT HEAVY like CONN and Mayweather SCHOOLS Marquez, Mosely and Hatton and which guy gets the HATE???

Mayweather beat MORE pound for pound fighters than LOUIS. FACT!

Mayweather RECORD speaks for ITSELF.

Face it bro - PWNED!

Pwned and SHEEEETTTT

God I wish it was 1990 again, so I could drown kids.

Cheers Rodders

Perhaps the scorecards leads to the preconceived idea...and the fact Louis basically told Conn after the fight he threw it away..

"You had the title for 12 rounds and lost it..How were you going to keep it for 6 months"

So you haven't seen the fight then? Louis was ahead on one scorecard.

He also said he didn't train for the last 3 weeks for the fight as he said "he didn't want everyone to think he beat the little guy up"

It wasn't a one sided drumming however way you wish to dress it up.

Cheers Rodders