Bismarck sent off for tackling and handing off: someone should have told the Boks to prepare for a soccer match!

Absurd!


PS: I don't think that Boks would necessarily have won it though, but the absurd sending off of Bismarck definitely ruined was was set to be a cracking test

As I said in another post, I won't be one bit surprised if Poite is removed from the IRB's elite panel of referee's for that performance. In the 2012 6N Wayne Barnes yellow carded Stephen Ferris for a fair tackle against Wales in the last minute of the match. Wales then kicked the penalty to win the game and Barnes was subsequently removed from the IRB elite panel. If that was a precedent then I think we might be saying goodbye to Mr.Poite for a while.

It was a joke. Though I wouldn't describe the second one as a handing off. It was the first decision that was ridiculous and the second one was very iffy.

Huge shame.

Can we merge all these threads up? I think we all agree.

you hand someone off with yes you guessed it, your hand! not your elbow.

The second yellow was spot on, the first one on the other hand..

Artful_Dodger wrote:As I said in another post, I won't be one bit surprised if Poite is removed from the IRB's elite panel of referee's for that performance.  In the 2012 6N Wayne Barnes yellow carded Stephen Ferris for a fair tackle against Wales in the last minute of the match.  Wales then kicked the penalty to win the game and Barnes was subsequently removed from the IRB elite panel.  If that was a precedent then I think we might be saying goodbye to Mr.Poite for a while.

Non sense Ferris was full of intent and Barnes give the correct decision, the pressure from the IRFU got Barnes dropped.

Deluded strikes back!

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:As I said in another post, I won't be one bit surprised if Poite is removed from the IRB's elite panel of referee's for that performance.  In the 2012 6N Wayne Barnes yellow carded Stephen Ferris for a fair tackle against Wales in the last minute of the match.  Wales then kicked the penalty to win the game and Barnes was subsequently removed from the IRB elite panel.  If that was a precedent then I think we might be saying goodbye to Mr.Poite for a while.

Non sense Ferris was full of intent and Barnes give the correct decision, the pressure from the IRFU got Barnes dropped.

Think you should stick to being "just Dave" for a while

Bismark hit on Carter was neither late nor high. He even put some arms into it. perhaps he was slightly offside at worst. No card.

Serious hit though. Glad I didn't have to take it.

Regards todays game i just thought the first one was just small man v big man the second one was just clumsy heat of the moment.
But lets not forget the refs decision is always final, i have seen Wales get robbed by the ref endless times but told to shut it and accept the decision!

So i guess all the ones whinging like footballers on 606 today should shut it and accept the refs decision.

Nonsense, there is lazy refereeing and incompetent refereeing.

Poite was completely incompetent today.

As Nick Mallett said after the game.

Companies sponsor millions into sport, Rugby Union is a billion Dollar sport and the IRB must realise what is at risk when things like this happen.

Sounds like a clear case of a ref caving to the influence of a player's (Carter's) reputation. I missed the game, might catch up on it later, but from what people are saying it sounds like Poite flinched at a crunching hit and subsequent injury on someone with a big profile, judging the impact over the technique and execution. If so Du Plessis should feel aggrieved and not only should Poite be removed but the sentence usually imposed on sending off's revised in this instance.

I think the fact that it was Carter who was hit, and injured, and the fact that a fight erupted afterwards (Nonu should have been carded for starting a fight in response to a legal tackle!) definitely coloured the ref's interpretation of the event.

Just seen it and best everyone starts getting use to playing touch or tag rugby. An absolute cracking hit in what is supposed to be a hard contact sport.

Utter utter disgraceful decision by the ref

havent seen first offense, but second one was a yellow

you dont lead with the elbow ever

It was a genuine mistake by the ref (first yellow). Why does some people think it's a hanging offence?

It's a really poor decision but thought he was fine other than that. Not the best performance but far from the worst. Unfortunate that the 1st yellow has led to a big decision early in the 2nd.

Cyril wrote:It was a genuine mistake by the ref (first yellow). Why does some people think it's a hanging offence?

It's not a case of calling for his head, at least not to me it isn't. Errors like that have the potential to alter the direction of a game or the result. Otherwise they almost always add distaste to the fixture and spoil a lot of good, competitive games. Regardless of whether the second one was a yellow or not, DP shouldn't have been off for as long as he was. By extension the Boks shouldn't have had to spend that long playing with 14 men. It's a soft mistake and it gives valid grounds to consider a reprimand, not for discipline's sake alone but to show people that it's in the interests of the game these things don't happen.

Knowsit17 wrote:

Cyril wrote:It was a genuine mistake by the ref (first yellow). Why does some people think it's a hanging offence?

It's not a case of calling for his head, at least not to me it isn't. Errors like that have the potential to alter the direction of a game or the result. Otherwise they almost always add distaste to the fixture and spoil a lot of good, competitive games. Regardless of whether the second one was a yellow or not, DP shouldn't have been off for as long as he was. By extension the Boks shouldn't have had to spend that long playing with 14 men. It's a soft mistake and it gives valid grounds to consider a reprimand, not for discipline's sake alone but to show people that it's in the interests of the game these things don't happen.

Yeah fair enough, but there are some posters on here saying he should never referee another international game. It's those kind of comments that will force refs from the game and discourage potential ones from going down that career path.

Players, coaches etc make mistakes all the time but it's the refs that are the ones expected to never make errors.

Cyril wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:

Cyril wrote:It was a genuine mistake by the ref (first yellow). Why does some people think it's a hanging offence?

It's not a case of calling for his head, at least not to me it isn't. Errors like that have the potential to alter the direction of a game or the result. Otherwise they almost always add distaste to the fixture and spoil a lot of good, competitive games. Regardless of whether the second one was a yellow or not, DP shouldn't have been off for as long as he was. By extension the Boks shouldn't have had to spend that long playing with 14 men. It's a soft mistake and it gives valid grounds to consider a reprimand, not for discipline's sake alone but to show people that it's in the interests of the game these things don't happen.

Yeah fair enough, but there are some posters on here saying he should never referee another international game. It's those kind of comments that will force refs from the game and discourage potential ones from going down that career path.

Players, coaches etc make mistakes all the time but it's the refs that are the ones expected to never make errors.

Haven't seen anyone here claiming that Poite should "never" be allowed to officiate another int'l. Even if there are people saying that on other threads/forums I wouldn't be at all surprised. Mistakes like that in high-stakes games are notorious for stoking serious emotion, hyperbole and exaggeration are just side-effects of that. You can't simply expect people to lie down when they feel their side's been fecked over by incompetence.

Hence why I said it adds another reason for discouraging it, for the ire it invokes and the spoiling effect it has on games as well as the results it may or may not affect. From what I see nobody reasonable is saying Poite should be banned for life but he should certainly be encouraged to revise or expand his judgement in such situations.

Cyril wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:

Cyril wrote:It was a genuine mistake by the ref (first yellow). Why does some people think it's a hanging offence?

It's not a case of calling for his head, at least not to me it isn't. Errors like that have the potential to alter the direction of a game or the result. Otherwise they almost always add distaste to the fixture and spoil a lot of good, competitive games. Regardless of whether the second one was a yellow or not, DP shouldn't have been off for as long as he was. By extension the Boks shouldn't have had to spend that long playing with 14 men. It's a soft mistake and it gives valid grounds to consider a reprimand, not for discipline's sake alone but to show people that it's in the interests of the game these things don't happen.

Yeah fair enough, but there are some posters on here saying he should never referee another international game. It's those kind of comments that will force refs from the game and discourage potential ones from going down that career path.

Players, coaches etc make mistakes all the time but it's the refs that are the ones expected to never make errors.

Not some. i did.

These guys are the top echelon of rugby, players get banned up to two years for gross neglegence etc.

That was gross neglegence, the big screen even showed the tackle, the evidence was staring him in the face.

Total willfull, incompetence.

Biltong wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:

Cyril wrote:It was a genuine mistake by the ref (first yellow). Why does some people think it's a hanging offence?

It's not a case of calling for his head, at least not to me it isn't. Errors like that have the potential to alter the direction of a game or the result. Otherwise they almost always add distaste to the fixture and spoil a lot of good, competitive games. Regardless of whether the second one was a yellow or not, DP shouldn't have been off for as long as he was. By extension the Boks shouldn't have had to spend that long playing with 14 men. It's a soft mistake and it gives valid grounds to consider a reprimand, not for discipline's sake alone but to show people that it's in the interests of the game these things don't happen.

Yeah fair enough, but there are some posters on here saying he should never referee another international game. It's those kind of comments that will force refs from the game and discourage potential ones from going down that career path.

Players, coaches etc make mistakes all the time but it's the refs that are the ones expected to never make errors.

Not some. i did.

These guys are the top echelon of rugby, players get banned up to two years for gross neglegence etc.

That was gross neglegence, the big screen even showed the tackle, the evidence was staring him in the face.

Total willfull, incompetence.

Players get banned for up to two years for extreme foul play, not for making mistakes.

Whatever.

Cyril wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:

Cyril wrote:It was a genuine mistake by the ref (first yellow). Why does some people think it's a hanging offence?

It's not a case of calling for his head, at least not to me it isn't. Errors like that have the potential to alter the direction of a game or the result. Otherwise they almost always add distaste to the fixture and spoil a lot of good, competitive games. Regardless of whether the second one was a yellow or not, DP shouldn't have been off for as long as he was. By extension the Boks shouldn't have had to spend that long playing with 14 men. It's a soft mistake and it gives valid grounds to consider a reprimand, not for discipline's sake alone but to show people that it's in the interests of the game these things don't happen.

Yeah fair enough, but there are some posters on here saying he should never referee another international game. It's those kind of comments that will force refs from the game and discourage potential ones from going down that career path.

Players, coaches etc make mistakes all the time but it's the refs that are the ones expected to never make errors.

I don't think anyone's expecting refs to never make an error, it's pretty much a given they will make several during the course of the match.  The best you can hope for is over 80 mins you'll be able to say he was fair to both sides.  A penalty or a missed call here or there is relatively minor compared to a send off.  If the ref is going to make a call that could significantly advantage one team for the rest of the match he damn well better get it right.  God invented the TMO for a reason.  It's perfectly understandable that, in the moment, he was influenced by the size of the hit, the moan of the crowd, Carter in pain, the ensuing scuffle etc, but once all that died down all he had to do was look up at the screen and make a call any right minded person could have made. I don't think we're asking too much.

Full Credit wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:

Cyril wrote:It was a genuine mistake by the ref (first yellow). Why does some people think it's a hanging offence?

It's not a case of calling for his head, at least not to me it isn't. Errors like that have the potential to alter the direction of a game or the result. Otherwise they almost always add distaste to the fixture and spoil a lot of good, competitive games. Regardless of whether the second one was a yellow or not, DP shouldn't have been off for as long as he was. By extension the Boks shouldn't have had to spend that long playing with 14 men. It's a soft mistake and it gives valid grounds to consider a reprimand, not for discipline's sake alone but to show people that it's in the interests of the game these things don't happen.

Yeah fair enough, but there are some posters on here saying he should never referee another international game. It's those kind of comments that will force refs from the game and discourage potential ones from going down that career path.

Players, coaches etc make mistakes all the time but it's the refs that are the ones expected to never make errors.

I don't think anyone's expecting refs to never make an error, it's pretty much a given they will make several during the course of the match.  The best you can hope for is over 80 mins you'll be able to say he was fair to both sides.  A penalty or a missed call here or there is relatively minor compared to a send off.  If the ref is going to make a call that could significantly advantage one team for the rest of the match he damn well better get it right.  God invented the TMO for a reason.  It's perfectly understandable that, in the moment, he was influenced by the size of the hit, the moan of the crowd, Carter in pain, the ensuing scuffle etc, but once all that died down all he had to do was look up at the screen and make a call any right minded person could have made. I don't think we're asking too much.

Agreed, it's a ref's duty to keep a level head and follow the correct logical procedures to ascertain whether there has or has not been foul play. Had Poite followed these procedures rather than lose his head and make a deduction based on the circumstances DP would probably have seen out the game.

I'll be sorely disappointed if action isn't taken or if Poite doesn't, at the very least, stand up and concede he made the wrong call. Everyone ought to be held accountable for their mistakes, referees are no exception to that rule. Their judgement shouldn't go so unquestioned that they are seen as immune to error and egotistically subject the result to their whims and impulses, a higher standard needs to be sought.

Is Carter okay though?

The Saint wrote:Is Carter okay though?

Severe ego haematoma.

Knowsit17 wrote:

Full Credit wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:

Cyril wrote:It was a genuine mistake by the ref (first yellow). Why does some people think it's a hanging offence?

It's not a case of calling for his head, at least not to me it isn't. Errors like that have the potential to alter the direction of a game or the result. Otherwise they almost always add distaste to the fixture and spoil a lot of good, competitive games. Regardless of whether the second one was a yellow or not, DP shouldn't have been off for as long as he was. By extension the Boks shouldn't have had to spend that long playing with 14 men. It's a soft mistake and it gives valid grounds to consider a reprimand, not for discipline's sake alone but to show people that it's in the interests of the game these things don't happen.

Yeah fair enough, but there are some posters on here saying he should never referee another international game. It's those kind of comments that will force refs from the game and discourage potential ones from going down that career path.

Players, coaches etc make mistakes all the time but it's the refs that are the ones expected to never make errors.

I don't think anyone's expecting refs to never make an error, it's pretty much a given they will make several during the course of the match.  The best you can hope for is over 80 mins you'll be able to say he was fair to both sides.  A penalty or a missed call here or there is relatively minor compared to a send off.  If the ref is going to make a call that could significantly advantage one team for the rest of the match he damn well better get it right.  God invented the TMO for a reason.  It's perfectly understandable that, in the moment, he was influenced by the size of the hit, the moan of the crowd, Carter in pain, the ensuing scuffle etc, but once all that died down all he had to do was look up at the screen and make a call any right minded person could have made. I don't think we're asking too much.

Agreed, it's a ref's duty to keep a level head and follow the correct logical procedures to ascertain whether there has or has not been foul play. Had Poite followed these procedures rather than lose his head and make a deduction based on the circumstances DP would probably have seen out the game.

I'll be sorely disappointed if action isn't taken or if Poite doesn't, at the very least, stand up and concede he made the wrong call. Everyone ought to be held accountable for their mistakes, referees are no exception to that rule. Their judgement shouldn't go so unquestioned that they are seen as immune to error and egotistically subject the result to their whims and impulses, a higher standard needs to be sought.

It still doesn't solve the problem

Springboks were leading the Rugby championship before this match.

The mistake cost them 48 minutes with 14 men. You aren't going to stop NZ with 14 men, they got a try bonus point. For the period We had 15 men the score was 10-10

We were in the game and Bismarck was having a blinder, in the 32 minutes he was on the field he made three steals at the breakdown.

I am not saying we could have won, but we were in it. Instead of perhaps having a situation where we could have gotten a losing bonus point, or perhaps even a draw and NZ 4 points for the win. They got 5 points and we got nothing.

So now in effect the race is just about run, even if we beat them we have to get a bonus point win against OZ.

So the IRB or Poite can apologise ll they want, it doesn't help us.

It is exactly the same scenario with Bryce. No use he apologised after the RWC, we were already eliminated by then.

Apparently the sending off didn't matter because the ABs are so brilliant anyway:
 
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11124902

Prognosis is Carter out for 4-6 weeks ,Dagg,Savea,also carrying injuries. With respect Boks could have picked up a losing bonus point when AB`s`s were down to 13 men.
Biltong all Boks have to do is win in SA by 8 points Australia on recent form should be
no problem.Argentina at Home unlikely to concede a bonus point to AB`s incidentally
HAD Boks won today they would have become IRB number one side by .410 points what
happens if they win in SA would they be Number one then?

Alan, I don't care about the ranking, I care about a fair contrst, if we lose a fair contest I am just fine.

But not this way.

Galted wrote:Apparently the sending off didn't matter because the ABs are so brilliant anyway:
 
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11124902

And folk have the cheek to call us English arrogant
!

In what way was that article arrogant?

ebop wrote:In what way was that article arrogant?

The game wasn't as one-sided as the article made out. When it was 15 against 15 the game was pretty tight. Even when it was 14 vs 15 the boks didn't let the game get away from them. I would however, agree with the sentiment of the article in that I think the Boks lacked composure at times (knock-ons; passes not going to hand; kicks not finding touch; not making more of the last 5 minutes when NZ were down to 13 etc) - just I wouldn't agree with the degree of the sentiment. It was a much closer game than the NZ herald would have us believe especially given that it was 14 men against 16.

I agree with you. I thought SA had us very rattled and were dominating us. But I think the writer made the point that the ABs won without our two talisman and others dropping like flies. I think we got out of jail a bit. The ref wasn't great and there were more strange calls than just the first yellow. Lets just say, the win has not answered the question and I'm thinking that SA effort has sent a few shivers down the collective spine.

How big are Bismark's arms? He's a colossus.

yes 16- especially when it was 13..or is it 14...oh...1 5 no hang on...

For me, the disappointment of Bissie's sending off is that we didn't get to see the result of a fair tussle between the two teams. It looked tight (I think the AB's would have taken it in the end) but now we'll never know...

makes the return match in SA all the more interesting, especially if its to decide the title which is looking likely. NZ will want to 6-0 again this year after being fortunate here.

There was an awful lot going on pulling back,jersey pulling some would call it a professional foul and a yellow card.Aron Smith was upended off the ball and impeded on numerous occasions.Its what you expect in a game as intense as this was near the end the Boks facing
13 men.Tried running and throwing inaccurate passes which didn't go to hand ,last week
a wild pass bounced nicely for the bonus point try a fluke.
Both teams had problems at Scrum time on there own put in due to time taken to feed
Scrums under the new laws BEFORE DuPlessis was binned.Also several Lineouts went
astray on both sides.
Poite certainly may have got the Bismarck card[First]wrong but he wasn't one eyed as
has been suggested.Boks were as cynical with there gamesmanship as the ABs what is more important what happens now.Is Bismarck suspended for the Red Card,Nonu is almost certain
to be cited for his yellow card.

Good point, a lot of focus always goes on the ABs and how they get an 'easy' ride whilst conveniently sweeping opponent indiscretions under the carpet.

When habana ran into Dagg and injured him 'on accident'. Is it worth debating why that got nothing whilst nonu got 10 for foul play?

Piatau did great, well done to him.

just thought habana was reckless- wasnt going for the ball, just seemed to want to hit something. Regardless of the refs decision its the Bok way to be more physical than sometimes they need to be, to the point that it becomes a liability, a risk and 'inefficient' in the end. The ABs do it as well but its almost as if the Boks approach contact negatively- a hate aspect to their very thinking where the ABs physical work is mostly about efficiency, part of the plan...I think Nonu aside.

I think its that negativity that gets them into trouble in the end. Du Plessis tackle, any higher would have been high, any earlier it would have been offside. Its living on that edge as a rule that forces some refs to ask the question, and sometimes get it wrong.

The Saint wrote:Is Carter okay though?

Carter could be out for up to six weeks with a damaged AC joint

Yeah Tman, the habana thing was nothing and I was clutching at straws. Ignore my comment. All I know is that I'd be ropable if I was South African and everyone including kiwis are sympathising with them. Not that that changes things. And credit to the SA team for not blowing up in the aftermath. Are doctors monitoring Meyer's blood pressure in the coaches box?

Ebop.

Go watch Habana again, go watch Certer again and go watch Messam again.

Then ask yourself a question. You can figure the question out yourself.

Bismarck on Carter was what any rugby loving supporter will see as one of those great hits making it on the list of top 100 hits.

Messam was right on Bismarck when he recieved the ball, Bismarck had to turn and fend with almost no space, how do you start a fend on a tackler?

You bring your hand and elbow up and then push forward with your hand, bismarck had Messam on top of him and couldn't complete the action of fending off Messam.

Habana on Dagg, Habana looked up saw he wasn't going to get to the ball, looked down and saw Dagg coming, HE THEN STOPPED AND BRACED FOR CONTACT.

Now ask yourself a question.

Refs are like us all human and like us all they make mistakes BUT what needs to happen and been seen to happen is that there is some sort of reprimand/punishement.

Again like most (I would imagine) if I was to mess up in my job I would expect some sort of reprimand so lets see if Poite is reprimanded befor we all lynch him.

If he's not then its the governing bodies fault for not being strong enough.

Biltong, I know what I saw and the only thing I disagree with you about is the 'fend' on Messam. That will never be called a fend no matter how you dress it up.

What was the question again?

Habana looked up and saw he wasn't going to get the ball? Don't think he could've seen the ball as it was 15 to 20 metres behind him. The contact isn't the issue. The issue was he had no business being where he was as he was nowhere near the ball.

Nothing can be done just like Lobbe got off for jersey pulling the week before without a yellow card. That had a bonus point in question. This week the decision on the first yellow was inexcusable. Poite should have a French speaking TMO as he's dealing with a lot of information and feels under pressure to get the game back under way. He went with what he thought he saw and he was grossly mistaken. It ruined the entire game and now he should have to live by that decision and face a sanction.

You're disappointed and I'm not going to tell you anything related to that first ruling. The other things you mention don't cut it with me. The first yellow is the big mistake. That's the key. No need to explain the other two incidents away.

What annoyed me is the boks reverted to type. They forgot the progress they had made and chose to bullrush the ABs. No effective backline play just boss boss boss. The ABs absorbed it all, took the injuries and remained true to what they are as a team. The boks may think they were robbed but they desserted all progress they had made to date. Du plessis is one awesome player and the aggression got the better of him. His actions caused a bad decision to be made when stopping DC rather than crushing him would have been just as effective,

Yes a top 100 hits biltong but really? Is that the aim of this game? To smash our little prima donna off the park.? Can the boks not bring more to the table than bash?

Frankly the side lacked real skill, kicked poorly, dropped balls, missed tackles and generally did nothing positive other than bash. We now have several players out injured because we couldnt handle the physicality of the bok onslaught. Thats fine, thats rugby, and we move on. But we get the win, one we woud have got anyway.

Lets hope the boks bring more to the table than bash in SA, because though they mght take out a few more of our players in their quest, they wont win the rugby.

Disappointed in their effort this round.

You can be as disappointed as you want to be, I would love to see the AB's play the Boks with 14 on 15.

Taylorman wrote:What annoyed me is the boks reverted to type. They forgot the progress they had made and chose to bullrush the ABs. No effective backline play just boss boss boss. The ABs absorbed it all, took the injuries and remained true to what they are as a team. The boks may think they were robbed but they desserted all progress they had made to date.  Du plessis is one awesome player and the aggression got the better of him. His actions caused a bad decision to be made when stopping DC rather than crushing him would have been just as effective.......

All Black hookers dish out severe concussion with (illegal) swinging arms and their fans argue it's 'just good old fashioned clearing out at the ruck mate'.  

South African hooker clatters All Black in a (perfectly legal) tackle and it's over aggressive?!