If the Heinekin Cup ends should the English/French club players be ineligable for International rugby?

First topic message reminder :

Here's the deal. French and English clubs have a new television deal, with lots of cash. It allows them to separate from the existing tournament when it ends early next year. However, multinational rugby tournaments are governed by the IRB and the nations involved are less than supportive of the clubs moves. If the English/French clubs thumb their collective noses at the IRB one option is to remove the rights of players, playing for those clubs, to be involved in 6 nations and world cup.

what are you confused by?

If we go with another fixed allocation what is going to happen in the short/medium/long term?

This will clearly happen again? its obvious- one league will be better than there allocation and they will be all like- Its not fair we will pull out- blah blah blah.

So the only long term view to this is to obviously have a league based coefficient system (like UEFA does in the CL) that reflects the quality and success of each league in the HC and armin cup and awards spots based on this!

Well, I'm confused as to how you separate Unions from the Rabo?  

Ok, you're arguing for a merit based qualification within the Rabo. All four Unions represented within the Rabo have conceded that they are prepared to give ground on this issue, and I don't think PRL/LNR would reject the compromise. Really don't think this was as big an issue as some have made it out to be, but that's an opinion.

I am really confused dude!

Are you talking about the comment you quoted?

That isn't necessarily about the rabbo. Its about a long term method of allocating ERC spots to the european leagues, so we never get this BS brought up again and everything will eventually become spot on fair!

mystiroakey wrote:I am really confused dude!

Are you talking about the comment you quoted?

That isn't necessarily about the rabbo. Its about a long term method of allocating ERC spots to the european leagues, so we never get this BS brought up again and everything will eventually become spot on fair!

Well, for arguments sake, if we look at the Rabo as consisting of 4 separate Unions, and if each Union were to elect their best performing team/s to qualify for the HEC, or whatever it will be, then is that not fair? So say 2 from 4 Irish, and 1 from 2 Italian, can qualify, representing 50% of teams participating within the Rabo for each Union. This would be in keeping with 6 from 12 for PRL for example.

They can allocate them anyway they want- i have mentioned that previously- it's still unfair to other teams though that may finish higher in the pro 12. You are then setting yourself up for in house fighting!(which will happen - trust me!!)

clearly that situation doesn't happen at the moment when 10 teams get in anyway!!- you reduce that to 8 you will see issues being raised- reduce it to 6 and ouch- Watch out for the handbags!! if you did go down to 6(not saying thats fair or anything) it truely would be best to just let the top 6 go through and that wouldn't just be fair- BUt it would also aid a much better quality and competitive pro 12!

mystiroakey wrote:they can allocate them anyway there allocations like- i have mentioned that previously- it's still unfair to other teams though that may finish higher in the pro 12. You are then setting yourself up for in house fighting!(which will happen - trust me!!)

Yes, I absolutely agree it would be harsh, and so I believe that the top 6 should qualify, but then if any Unions top performing team was to miss out on a top 6 place that can also be deemed unfair. They are the best team in their respective union, and so should represent their Union in any European competition. So the best answer, I believe, is a top 6 plus 2 to help ensure all Unions are fairly represented. No?

Nope - one allocation only, that could potentially vary each year. They can however allocate it anyway they want.

mystiroakey wrote:Nope - one allocation only, that could potentially vary each year. They can however allocate it anyway they want.

I think I get what you're saying here. If 3 out of 4 Unions are in the top 6 then 1 place is allocated to the Union outside of top 6 qualification? Then if the Rabo had only 2 Unions in the top 6, say 4 Welsh, 2 Scots, 2 places could be allocated to Irish, and Italians (one each), in any given year?

Not sure if that's what you're saying, but it's a fair point. Only problem is how would that fit into 20 places only for the group stages? Some years it may mean 21? Not better to just have 2 extra? Maybe one for second tier would solve a problem.

no i am not saying that at all.

i am saying there are no pluses at all.

If the Pro 12 deserve 8 spots they should get 8 spots, if they deserve 6 spots they should get 6 spots, if the deserve 10 spots they should get 10 spots!!

If the pro 12 wants to be union friendly they can be fair to all if they want . But under a coefficient system that would have a negative impact on the pro 12(because if you dont play your best you wont get the better results)

mystiroakey wrote:no i am not saying that at all.

i am saying there are no pluses at all.

If the Pro 12 deserve 8 spots they should get 8 spots, if they deserve 6 spots they should get 6 spots, if the deserve 10 spots they should get 10 spots!!

If the pro 12 wants to be union friendly they can be fair to all if they want . But under a coefficient system that would have a negative impact on the pro 12(because if you dont play your best you wont get the better results)

But then being Union friendly is a reflection of any European competition as it the best of each Union being represented, and an automatic top 6 qualification ensures competition at league level, with the +2 helping ensure all Unions are represented. Otherwise the league could have a top 6 finisher miss out on Euro competition in order to facilitate any Union which finishes outside of the required placement.

Nope , best in the leagues needs to be represented..(that is the way it works in all other sports) and it is the logical and best way. The unions are only complicating this matter.

If the pro 12 wants all being represented then it can do that if it wishes to. The ultimate goal of a european cup should be to get all the european leagues represented!

off course this is my theory only!!

I am sure all unions  however bad they are will be represented- I am also sure we wont base allocations on a coefficient.

This will just lead it being a closed shop again for the foreseeable future until one of the 3 leagues feels hard done by and causes another tantrum!

mystiroakey wrote:Nope , best in the leagues needs to be represented..(that is the way it works in all other sports) and it is the logical and best way. The unions are only complicating this matter.

If the pro 12 wants all being represented then it can do that if it wishes to. The ultimate goal of a european cup should be to get all the european leagues represented!

But it is the best in the League which is being represented in the top 6, and for European competition it is the best of each Union which would be represented. There is no other option to it, and as I have said; I'm sure it wouldn't be an issue for PRL/LNR.

so you want all off our nations to have a free pass however bad they may be or become. why aren't you pushing for georgia or russia to get guaranteed spots?

be the way forget the franglo stuff- I have gone way past discussing them . I have gone on to a CL styled system

mystiroakey wrote:off course this is my theory only!!

I am sure all unions  however bad they are will be represented- I am also sure we wont base allocations on a coefficient.

This will just lead it being a closed shop again for the foreseeable future until one of the 3 leagues feels hard done by and causes another tantrum!

We are all grasping at air at the moment, mystiroakey, and hopefully a solution can be found to enable European competition to continue, and in a way which helps avoid any present conflicts repeating in the future.
Be nice to argue about something else  

mystiroakey wrote:so you want all off our nations to have a free pass however bad they may be or become. why aren't you pushing for georgia or russia to get guaranteed spots?

I would love to see Russia, Georgia, Spain all start to really challenge those established within the 6N, but I'm really only talking about the Rabo, and qualification into the HEC, at present. None of the above are ready to compete at that level, but hopefully they will.

Well if its all about fairness and niceness and having all unions represented then why the heck shouldnt we go the whole hog?

look right we either go full on club rugby and make rugby massive- compete on a level with football(to a certain extent) we draw the best players from everywhere into europe and we make good money on it!- turn rugby into the money spinner it could be. Russia's market alone is going to be massive as well! And it will be exported all over the world!

or we say nope we will use this as a breeding ground for european international rugby, and if we do that we need to start making compromises!

mystiroakey wrote:Well if its all about fairness and niceness and having all unions represented then why the heck shouldnt we go the whole hog?

Because it isn't possible. That's why we have 2nd tier competition. Can't fit everyone at the top, and if the likes of Russia, or Georgia, do come good, then how teams qualify for the top tier will have to change, and adapt. Maybe less qualification spots from the 3 leagues at present.

what are you talking about dude- you want a devalued competition anyway!

this tier two comp sounds like the tier two 6 nations..... A non event with no promotion opportunities!!

mystiroakey wrote:what are you talking about dude- you want a devalued competition anyway!

I do? How so?  

mystiroakey wrote:this tier two comp sounds like the tier two 6 nations..... A non event with no promotion opportunities!!

Or an Amlin?

you wont all 6 nations unions represented whatever the quality.

mystiroakey wrote:you wont all 6 nations unions represented whatever the quality.

I want a truly European competition if that's what you mean. Yes. Think the group stages help sort out the quality of sides.

well exactly as does all of the groups in all decent contests, however once you allow others in they start becoming bigger and better and start receiving more interest and more fans and play against better sides and get tv revenue and they could transform in a tenth of the time!

before you know it we have a european cup- not a closed shop 6 nations club comp.

mystiroakey wrote:well exactly as does all of the groups in all decent contests, however once you allow others in they start becoming bigger and better and start receiving more interest and more fans and play against better sides and get tv revenue and they could transform in a tenth of the time!

before you know it we have a european cup- not a closed shop 6 nations club comp.

I agree. Think most fans would love to see other Unions challenging for spots, but no other is placed to do so right now, and not least due to expense.

Getting late, mystiroakey. Thanks for the chat  

Night

mystiroakey wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:I think what Guns can't and possibly will never understand is that its very easy for england to remain in contention in the international world of cricket and rugby as both are very much minor sports with less competition over football..

For anyone to assume we should compete at the highest level in so many sports is pushing the boundaries of reality and football is the main sport for 150 nations world wide! so what does anyone expect!

I think you possibly dont understand is the point I was making is that international football in general has deteriorated to the point that most matches are meaningless and the WC isnt the spectacle it once was. It isnt necessarly an English phenomonen but the way I see it is club football is largely to blame for many reasons a lot of which are related to wealth. England happens to have the wealthiest league in the world.

The football world cup is still the biggest sporting event on the planet- so whats your point again?

That it isnt as great as it once was. Its the biggest but far from the best.

Coca Cola is the biggest drink in the world but does that mean its the best? Coca cola rots your teeth. Football is fairly rotten to the core too.

So you dont like the world cup anymore. ANd you think I or others have to feel the same?

Thats your point is it.

Its just your opinion mate, viewing figures and revenues tell a very different story

mystiroakey wrote:So you dont like the world cup anymore. ANd you think I or others have to feel the same?

Thats your point is it.

Its just your opinion mate, viewing figures and revenues tell a very different story

I honestly dont care what you think. What are you the Dali Lama or something? Just explaining my views since you seem to think my opinions are based on some sort of misunderstanding. Viewing figures and revenues dont necessarly mean the product it perfect when marketing and advertising has the ability to influence weak minded people.

Oh my god- you really are a moron aren't you. Talk about bring the level of debate down. Just run along and argue with someone on your level

mystiroakey wrote:Oh my god- you really are a moron aren't you. Talk about bring the level of debate down. Just run along and argue with someone on your level

It isnt a debate because you have been able to give an intellegent response to any of my points. How can I bring the level down below yours when you arent contributing anything?

so you say that the world cup is rubbish.(with zero reasoning)

I state I and others dont feel that way and that yours is only an opinion. In a pretty friendly way

You then  come back with aggressive nonsense !



      

mystiroakey wrote:so you say that the world cup is rubbish.(with zero reasoning)

I state I and others dont feel that way and that yours is only an opinion. In a pretty friendly way

You then  come back with aggressive nonsense !



      

Can you point out where I said "rubbish"? I have given reasons for my opinions.

If you cant handle a heated debate then go have a lie down or a cold shower or something.

I know its my opinion. Is it absolutely necessary to point out the obvious rather than actually constructing some sort of coherent retort or rebuttal to my arguements?

Still waiting.

Again more nonsense- You first argue that englands football has deteriorated within 50 years. you then decided to come back and say "no you misunderstood me!!"(well tbh mate i didn't bring it up at the time- but there was nothing to misunderstand - you just changed the goal posts or have very bad communication skills, which i didn't point out at the time and just happily carried on with the conversation!!) And that you actually 'MEANT' was that the wc and international football has deteriorated!

By mentioning these inaccuracies I didn't want to make you feel stupid so I just put it down to simple facts- you have an opinion i and and others have another and the viewing figures tell the story.

I take it you want a detailed answer to prove your nonsense!

More countries play football as their main sport today. There is truly only one global team sport out there(Its football)

You live in a tiny bubble in ireland that doesn't understand the world love for football and the WC and the reality(as i mentioned to you before) that there are countless countries out there playing football as their no.1 sport!!

Football has embraced the world and been embraced by the world. Just because you think england has deteriorated doesn't mean the game or the fanbase has!!! Its bigger than ever and more multicultural than ever.

The european leagues actually raise the bar for smaller nations in the game as well. You see they wouldn't have had the knowledge , money, skills to set up high quality leagues in their own countries.. What we end up is the european leagues getting talent from all over the world and making the world a more competitive sporting environment! It spreads talent around.

This is the truth and highlights the irony that you feel rugby  is so much more worthy over football because it prides international rugby.

No what it is doing is creating a closed old boys environment and doing NOTHING To help out up and coming nations!!

Finally. Can I just point out once again that just because football is a global game and undoubtly the most popular game in the world doesnt mean it is necessarly the best. Human nature is such that if something becomes popular with the right marketing it can snowball even if the product isnt particularly good. Dyson vacume cleaners for example. They consistently rank very low compared to their competitors in terms of performance yet they have convinced their market that they are the best in the business through advertising and marketing.

In terms of professional evolution football is undoubtably the most evolved sport out there and therefore has the biggest financial reach but with professionalism and wealth there are a lot of challenges. The crux of all my arguements is that rugby needs to learn from them so as not to make the same mistakes of which there have been many. As such while its popularity is as strong as ever for me football as a product as deteriorated gradually and significantly even in the space of the last 20 years.

The game may well have deteriorated for you. But the millions around the globe( that perhaps aren't quite as fortunate) may think very differently about it all!

and please stop the marketing talk as its totally irrelevant. If you can't watch a game of football(or any sport) and appreciate the quality and skill level and are just watching it because you are told to then you shouldn't be on a sports forum in the first place!

"he crux of all my arguements is that rugby needs to learn from them so as not to make the same mistakes of which there have been many."


this is a big problem in your psyche as well.


You see rugby needs to learn from the positives as well(of which there are also plenty)

mystiroakey wrote:The game may well have deteriorated for you. But the millions around the globe( that perhaps aren't quite as fortunate) may think very differently about it all!

and please stop the marketing talk as its totally irrelevant. If you can't watch a game of football(or any sport) and appreciate the quality and skill level and are just watching it because you are told to then you shouldn't be on a sports forum in the first place!

It is relevant because football is run like a business not a sport anymore.

mystiroakey wrote:"he crux of all my arguements is that rugby needs to learn from them so as not to make the same mistakes of which there have been many."


this is a big problem in your psyche as well.


You see rugby needs to learn from the positives as well(of which there are also plenty)

Thanks for pointing out the problems in my psyche. Very funny. I really needed a laugh this morning.

I am not going to drop to your level(lack of intelligence or lack of charm) so lets end it shall we. Its clear you dont actually know anything about football(globally today and you dont have any interest in the game)

Fingers crossed for rugby though. Can we agree on that?

mystiroakey wrote:I am not going to drop to your level(lack of intelligence or lack of charm) so lets end it shall we. Its clear you dont actually know anything about football(globally today and you dont have any interest in the game)

Fingers crossed for rugby though. Can we agree on that?

Dont go. Its facinating to witness your online implosion.

So dont want to  agree on anything then. Its just argue for the sake of it with you i take it.

mystiroakey wrote:So dont want to  agree on anything then. Its just argue for the sake of it with you i take it.

Stop being so needy. Obviously I want the best for rugby.

So you agree we should look at football and learn from their successes then?

surely the only success we should ever attribute to a sport is more players playing - the better!

Nothing else matters really (And  it certainly doesn't matter what nation they are from)

sadly your love for rugby is confined to you love for your teams and only your teams!

mystiroakey wrote:So you agree we should look at football and learn from their successes then?

Be more specific.

above!

numbers of people playing, from as many nations as possible..