Greatest Captain Of The Modern Game

by GloriousEmpire Fri 20 Sep 2013, 8:35 pm

The common factor in the greatest teams of the modern era is an heroic leader, a man who can give 10% more than physically possible and coax 5% more from the players around him.

These players have an aura that makes them seem bigger and more influential than one man has a right to be. They soldier on through adversity, never say die, they choose country over personal reward and they put their bodies on the line for their team.

As captains are all said to have influenced referees and single handedly changed the outcome of matches, melded men into characters of unflinching resolve and generally been top blokes as well.

But which was the best? And why? Who gave most to their country?

by kingraf Fri 20 Sep 2013, 9:04 pm

Ive gone with Eales... Nobody is perfect and all that...

by GloriousEmpire Fri 20 Sep 2013, 9:12 pm

I went with Eales myself. I'm not saying he was the greatest player, but I argue he added more to his team than any other. He crossed that boundary into mythological figure and never let the mask drop. I still recall that outrageous side line long range penalty kick to win the Bledisloe cup 5 minutes into injury time. Audacious and outrageous.

by kiakahaaotearoa Fri 20 Sep 2013, 9:22 pm

It's a good list GE. David Kirk seems to be sticking out like a sore thumb in that company. For years he was the one with the image of holding up the World Cup trophy but he doesn't fit the criteria you set out. I never thought I'd see a better captain for NZ than Fitzpatrick. What McCaw did in 2011 on one good foot is certainly what you allude to in your opening paragraph.

Both those captains are up there with Smit, Eales and Johnson. I wouldn't want to separate them as I can't even separate fitzy and Richie. (No toddy or captain invisible Whistle

). But hold a knife to my throat and insist I say someone then McCaw and not just because he's from Canterbury. Saying the others would just bring back bad memories. Which says a lot probably about those captains though undoubtedly others feel the same about McCaw.

by sirtidychris Fri 20 Sep 2013, 9:23 pm

Gone with johnno just cause he's such a legend in my eyes, on pure rugby terms should probably be Richie though, and on transcending sport probably piennar because of the Mandela, south Africa back drop, what was happening in sa and what the rwc 1995 did to unite the people.

by Taylorman Fri 20 Sep 2013, 9:54 pm

Went for Matt Damon myself as well. The 95 win did more for people than any other sporting event in history as far as Im concerned. Even though I tthought we should have won it, I wouldnt change the result for anything. so its partially a vote for Freeman as well, and I never got to vote for him...I have now...

by DeludedOptimistorjustDave Fri 20 Sep 2013, 10:05 pm

Robshaw by a country mile. Beat the All Blacks.

by GloriousEmpire Fri 20 Sep 2013, 10:14 pm

Well deluded, you certainly have an apt moniker, but I've restricted the list to captains who achieved something in a competitive match. Wink

O'Driscoll is in there both for his work with Ireland but also his lions contributions.

I wrestled with adding umaga and Warburton but in the end I think they both fall well short of true greatness.

Jonno is a compelling case, but I think the air was let out of his tyres by his disasterous stint as a coach which to me takes the shine off his overall legend status.

by DeludedOptimistorjustDave Fri 20 Sep 2013, 10:25 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:Well deluded, you certainly have an apt moniker, but I've restricted the list to captains who achieved something in a competitive match.

O'Driscoll is in there both for his work with Ireland but also his lions contributions.

I wrestled with adding umaga and Warburton but in the end I think they both fall well short of true greatness.

Jonno is a compelling case, but I think the air was let out of his tyres by his disasterous stint as a coach which to me takes the shine off his overall legend status.

i know.
I voted Kirk.

by GloriousEmpire Fri 20 Sep 2013, 10:29 pm

Robshaw might be one for the future though...

by dallym Fri 20 Sep 2013, 10:37 pm

few can influence the refs like Richie can.

I hear that when God plays rugby, he pretends that he's McCaw

by sirtidychris Fri 20 Sep 2013, 10:48 pm

Dylan Hartley?

by GloriousEmpire Fri 20 Sep 2013, 11:07 pm

Isn't iOS7 simply awful?

In other news ETNZ win the Americas cup - or atleast think they do, but with a 2km lead at the final mark the organisers suspiciously abandon the race.

In the rematch NZ race to an early lead but are then hit by the organisers with a suspicious penalty, handing the race once again to the wealthy American syndicate.

Larry Ellsion is right now trying to locate Suzie for tomorrow's unlikely coincidence to hand another race to Oracle.

by Taylorman Fri 20 Sep 2013, 11:19 pm

dallym wrote:few can influence the refs like Richie can.

I hear that when God plays rugby, he pretends that he's McCaw

Oooh..he'll be in trouble then, thats patented.

by Cyril Sat 21 Sep 2013, 12:01 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:Jonno is a compelling case, but I think the air was let out of his tyres by his disasterous stint as a coach which to me takes the shine off his overall legend status.

Which has what exactly to do with him being up for "greatest captain of the modern game"?

Oh, and I'm not sure what sailing (a hobby not a sport) has to do with this forum.

Come on ghostie, up your game! Smile

by Norfolklass Sat 21 Sep 2013, 12:24 pm

Martin Johnson was chosen as captain for the British Lions because of his height. He was chosen as England captain because Dallalio was forced to give up the English Captaincy for some sting tabloid misdemeanour. Johnson was his understudy. Great player yes, lifted the performance of other players by his presence, yes. Great captain, no.
I voted for Sean Fitz. Why? Because he controlled referees.

by Cyril Sat 21 Sep 2013, 12:27 pm

Norfolklass wrote:Martin Johnson was chosen as captain for the British Lions because of his height. He was chosen as England captain because Dallalio was forced to give up the English Captaincy for some sting tabloid misdemeanour. Johnson was his understudy. Great player yes, lifted the performance of other players by his presence, yes. Great captain, no.

Jeebus, the people you get on this forum!

by GloriousEmpire Sat 21 Sep 2013, 12:28 pm

Sting tabloid misdemeanor?

Is that what all the it boys are calling their coke habits now?

by Norfolklass Sat 21 Sep 2013, 12:35 pm

Cyril wrote:
Norfolklass wrote:Martin Johnson was chosen as captain for the British Lions because of his height. He was chosen as England captain because Dallalio was forced to give up the English Captaincy for some sting tabloid misdemeanour. Johnson was his understudy. Great player yes, lifted the performance of other players by his presence, yes. Great captain, no.
:laugh:Jeebus, the people you get on this forum!

Defend your position then. Don't mock. I don't think he's a good captain, he's an all time great player, a great leader of men into battle, but for me not a great captain. Go on actually say something about rugby instead of your pathetic attempts at ironic humour.

by goneagain Sat 21 Sep 2013, 12:39 pm

Shelford

by Cyril Sat 21 Sep 2013, 12:47 pm

Norfolklass wrote:
Cyril wrote:
Norfolklass wrote:Martin Johnson was chosen as captain for the British Lions because of his height. He was chosen as England captain because Dallalio was forced to give up the English Captaincy for some sting tabloid misdemeanour. Johnson was his understudy. Great player yes, lifted the performance of other players by his presence, yes. Great captain, no.
:laugh:Jeebus, the people you get on this forum!
Defend your position then. Don't mock. I don't think he's a good captain, he's an all time great player, a great leader of men into battle, but for me not a great captain. Go on actually say something about rugby instead of your pathetic attempts at ironic humour.

If you post something daft you deserve to be mocked. Sorry, but that's life. You only posted that to get a rise anyway. I guess I fell for it. Silly old me.

You only have to read what Leicester, England and Lions players write about Johnson to know what kind of captain he was. Read up and come back.

by captain carrantuohil Sat 21 Sep 2013, 4:29 pm

Pienaar for me. His force of personality had so much to do with lifting a side that wasn't the best in the tournament to winning the ultimate prize, arguably the only time that the finest team in the RWC hasn't actually won it.

The other thing about Pienaar was his matchless astuteness in handling the media, which, like it or not, is a crucial part of the MODERN captain's in-tray. Not many have had to cope with as much pressure (the hopes of a 'new' nation and all that) as Pienaar and he rose to the challenge superbly. I know that McCaw had a fair bit to contend with in the 2011 RWC, but every All Black captain sice Kirk had to endure that, and it did help that Richie had comfortable the best side at his disposal.

Most of the rest listed here wouldn't be far behind, but Pienaar will do for me.

by DeludedOptimistorjustDave Sat 21 Sep 2013, 6:05 pm

Cyril wrote:
Norfolklass wrote:
Cyril wrote:
Norfolklass wrote:Martin Johnson was chosen as captain for the British Lions because of his height. He was chosen as England captain because Dallalio was forced to give up the English Captaincy for some sting tabloid misdemeanour. Johnson was his understudy. Great player yes, lifted the performance of other players by his presence, yes. Great captain, no.
:laugh:Jeebus, the people you get on this forum!
Defend your position then. Don't mock. I don't think he's a good captain, he's an all time great player, a great leader of men into battle, but for me not a great captain. Go on actually say something about rugby instead of your pathetic attempts at ironic humour.
If you post something daft you deserve to be mocked. Sorry, but that's life. You only posted that to get a rise anyway. I guess I fell for it. Silly old me.

You only have to read what Leicester, England and Lions players write about Johnson to know what kind of captain he was. Read up and come back.

typical cyril response! clueless answer the guy, as he said if you think he is wrong tell him why, don't just rip into him.

by BigTrevsbigmac Sat 21 Sep 2013, 6:54 pm

LBND Wasps legend & supreme leader/motivator.

Martin Johnson would be up there to as an inspired choice for the Lions.

by stub Sat 21 Sep 2013, 7:45 pm

sirtidychris wrote:Dylan Hartley?

by GloriousEmpire Sat 21 Sep 2013, 8:23 pm

“It hurts to say this, but simply put, Richie McCaw is possibly the best rugby player that has lived,” said Gary Gold, Springboks forwards coach from 2008-11.

“My kid is a big Richie McCaw fan,” Meyer said. “After the match he gave his boots to my son. That's the type of thing the public doesn't always see.”

Now that, rugby fans, is respect and a great leader.

by Exiledinborders Sat 21 Sep 2013, 10:07 pm

Norfolklass wrote:
Cyril wrote:
Norfolklass wrote:Martin Johnson was chosen as captain for the British Lions because of his height. He was chosen as England captain because Dallalio was forced to give up the English Captaincy for some sting tabloid misdemeanour. Johnson was his understudy. Great player yes, lifted the performance of other players by his presence, yes. Great captain, no.
:laugh:Jeebus, the people you get on this forum!
Defend your position then. Don't mock. I don't think he's a good captain, he's an all time great player, a great leader of men into battle, but for me not a great captain. Go on actually say something about rugby instead of your pathetic attempts at ironic humour.

Great leader of men but not a great captain!!! What the hell do you think a captain is if not a leader?

by Guest Sat 21 Sep 2013, 10:36 pm

I think only Kirk and BOD stand out on that list

The rest were/are exceptional captains that define 'successful' eras for each respective team and I wouldn't know where to start in trying to separate them out.

How about laying down some criteria?

Follow me attitude
Playing ability (and hence longevity in role)
Percent games won
Trophies in the cabinet
Referee manipulation
Media communication (rustle up fan support)
Charisma

Dunno, how do you go about it?

by dallym Sat 21 Sep 2013, 10:43 pm

does Kirk earn extra points for saying no to the Cavaliers tour?

by GloriousEmpire Sat 21 Sep 2013, 10:45 pm

I guess there are points off for a captain who had a tattoo of a country he didn't captain on his body?

by aucklandlaurie Sun 22 Sep 2013, 8:22 am

Had to vote for Fitzy, the other Aucklander is a back.

by GloriousEmpire Sun 22 Sep 2013, 9:00 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Had to vote for Fitzy, the other Aucklander is a back.

For some reason you are reminding me of Bill Laurie's magnificent Victorian super hero Shane Warne (I didn't say meat)

https://youtu.be/-ffRzHESAwE

by **George Carlin** Sun 22 Sep 2013, 9:15 am

Good poll Glorious. I have gone with Nobody because I'm a sucker for these double-World Cup winners. McCaw was the best in his position (edging BOD and Farr-Jones for me) but Pienaar did more for the sport in his country than any other captain there - only guys like Pichot did more.

What is interesting is that legendary status can be bestowed by being in the right place at the right time. Great players and captains have longevity and it struck me what a huge variance there is in the number of caps each player obtained. I know that we play more matches nowadays, but even so:

David Kirk 17
Nick Farr-Jones 63
Francois Pienaar 29
Sean Fitzpatrick 92
John Eales 86
Martin Johnson 84
John Smit 111
Brian O'Driscoll 125
Richie McCaw 119

by GloriousEmpire Sun 22 Sep 2013, 9:31 am

Well it should have been Andy Dalton in that '87 All Blacks team but he copped an injury just before the tournament. I imagine this is the reason that Kirk is remembered.

At just 73kg and 5'8" I think he saw the chance to get out and switch to a career he was likely to survive, where he achieved more to annoy Australians than he ever could've in a black jersey by becoming CEO of Fairfax media - essentially having last word on what was published in the Sydney Morning Herald from 2008 when he could ensure that the record period of All Blacks Bledisloe cup dominance was reported with the correct level of antagonism. Now there's a captain.

He also leveraged his legal and management consulting skills in arbitrating the SANZAR stand off - crippling Australia with the addition of the Melbourne Rebels.

Yep. David Kirk has done more to cripple the ockers and make them feel miserable about it in the last ten years than even Richie McCaw.

by OzT Sun 22 Sep 2013, 1:52 pm

I voted Eales because he was a successful captain of a fairly average side. Jonno skippered a talented side which would probably still have won their matches with him in the side but not as skipper, whereas I don't think the Wallabies side would have won as many matches with Eales just playing but not skipper.

by GloriousEmpire Sun 22 Sep 2013, 2:38 pm

https://youtu.be/nRLB7gjoy4g

One of the most iconic moments in the history of the game.

A couple of years back Richie McCaw called for a scrum from a ruck penalty on his own 22 deep in injury time and the All Blacks almost snatched a famous victory...almost. Had they done it, it would've been up there with John Eales who (albeit with the help of Kaplan) pulled off this insane moment.

by kingjohn7 Sun 22 Sep 2013, 3:37 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:
Jonno is a compelling case, but I think the air was let out of his tyres by his disasterous stint as a coach which to me takes the shine off his overall legend status.

For me this boosts his great captaincy credentials. Im pretty sure he didnt plan on doing that but his country called for him whilst struggling and he stood up for it. Cared more for the team than his legacy.
Top man thumbsup

, from a welshman that hated him during Englands dominance(out of jealousy)

by GloriousEmpire Sun 22 Sep 2013, 4:15 pm

The best thing for his country would have been accepting he wasn't qualified and not stepping up. It smacked of egocentricity rather than valour to me.

by Norfolklass Sun 22 Sep 2013, 4:30 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
Norfolklass wrote:
Cyril wrote:
Norfolklass wrote:Martin Johnson was chosen as captain for the British Lions because of his height. He was chosen as England captain because Dallalio was forced to give up the English Captaincy for some sting tabloid misdemeanour. Johnson was his understudy. Great player yes, lifted the performance of other players by his presence, yes. Great captain, no.
:laugh:Jeebus, the people you get on this forum!
Defend your position then. Don't mock. I don't think he's a good captain, he's an all time great player, a great leader of men into battle, but for me not a great captain. Go on actually say something about rugby instead of your pathetic attempts at ironic humour.
Great leader of men but not a great captain!!! What the hell do you think a captain is if not a leader?

The point may be too subtle for you. As a leader on the pitch MJ was great and he inspired better performances from his team mates through sheer physical presence. However as a captain, for me, he lacks rugby intelligence and Laurence Dallallio was the better natural captain. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that Dallallio would have led England to World Cup Glory had not it been for indiscretions. In addition perhaps Lions Captaincy. MJ was an unsuccessful England Coach because he could not influence games off the pitch. You may not agree with me, but I hold a reasonable point of view and certainly not deserving to be laughed at by that most boring, tedious and unfunny poster, Cyril.

by GloriousEmpire Sun 22 Sep 2013, 5:14 pm

You have to treat Cyril's snide personal attacks as his way of saying "you are right and I can't argue with you". Once you realise that life here becomes much more calm.

by Cyril Sun 22 Sep 2013, 5:20 pm

They were hardly personal attacks. I said he/she made a 'daft' comment.

by GloriousEmpire Sun 22 Sep 2013, 5:53 pm

You see, and that's Cyril's way of apologising for offending you.

by Cyril Sun 22 Sep 2013, 5:54 pm

and that's GE's way of trying to stir the pot Wink

by GloriousEmpire Sun 22 Sep 2013, 6:14 pm

You're welcome Cyril.

by Norfolklass Sun 22 Sep 2013, 7:14 pm

Cyril wrote:They were hardly personal attacks. I said he/she made a 'daft' comment.

Shame on you. Why doubt my sexuality? Women like rugby. Why is that outside your belief system? Oh !!I

by **George Carlin** Sun 22 Sep 2013, 7:21 pm

Norfolklass wrote:
Cyril wrote:They were hardly personal attacks. I said he/she made a 'daft' comment.
Shame on you. Why doubt my sexuality? Women like rugby. Why is that outside your belief system? Oh !!I

Greatest Captain Of The Modern Game 1347041234

by No 7&1/2 Sun 22 Sep 2013, 7:30 pm

How do you define a great captain Norfolk?

by GloriousEmpire Sun 22 Sep 2013, 7:56 pm

George Carlin wrote:
Norfolklass wrote:
Cyril wrote:They were hardly personal attacks. I said he/she made a 'daft' comment.
Shame on you. Why doubt my sexuality? Women like rugby. Why is that outside your belief system? Oh !!I

To be fair to Cyril, I believe it was your gender rather than your sexuality he was calling into question.

Knowing Cyril as the stickler for detail he is, and the sort of chap who wouldn't leap to any embarrassing incorrect conclusion he would undoubtably have noted that you had withheld gender information from your profile and his impeccable manners would have him respond Ina gender neutral manner to honour your apparent intention for lack of specificity in this demographic.

by Guest Sun 22 Sep 2013, 8:21 pm

Bit tough on Cyril there

Ok, my order is Eales, Fitzy, McCaw, Johnson, Smit, Far-Jones, Piener, BOD, Kirk.

Just went with a vibe but how do you separate the top 5, all brilliant captains.

by kiakahaaotearoa Sun 22 Sep 2013, 8:26 pm

It's Mabo with the vibe ebop.

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Greatest Captain of The Modern Game