Greatest Captain Of The Modern Game

First topic message reminder :

The common factor in the greatest teams of the modern era is an heroic leader, a man who can give 10% more than physically possible and coax 5% more from the players around him.

These players have an aura that makes them seem bigger and more influential than one man has a right to be. They soldier on through adversity, never say die, they choose country over personal reward and they put their bodies on the line for their team.

As captains are all said to have influenced referees and single handedly changed the outcome of matches, melded men into characters of unflinching resolve and generally been top blokes as well.

But which was the best? And why? Who gave most to their country?

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Cyril wrote:I don't know why he doesn't just own up to all the ghosty antics. After all it's an open secret that he's

It just seems a bit weird to keep denying it all the time  

Cyril are you ever going to make a comment about rugby?

I will if you will.

McCaw, Jonno, Eales and Leo Cullen in that order.

rodders wrote:McCaw, Jonno, Eales and Leo Cullen in that order.

I remember Cullen have great leadership skills whilst at Tigers but thats pretty strong company you're sharing with him.

Has Cullen ever Captained Ireland or toured with the Lions?

tigerleghorn wrote:

rodders wrote:McCaw, Jonno, Eales and Leo Cullen in that order.

I remember Cullen have great leadership skills whilst at Tigers but thats pretty strong company you're sharing with him.

Has Cullen ever Captained Ireland or toured with the Lions?

Maybe I should have used a smiley emoticon......

Cyril wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Cyril wrote:I don't know why he doesn't just own up to all the ghosty antics. After all it's an open secret that he's

It just seems a bit weird to keep denying it all the time  

Cyril are you ever going to make a comment about rugby?

I will if you will.

Cyril all you do is make negative cynical personal comments and contribute nothing at all to rugby. Were you a scrum half by any chance?

How about David Sole?

TJ wrote:How about David Sole?

Not a bad call. Good captain Sole. Not in the Johnson/Eales league as a player, but he does highlight the difficulty of trying to quantify what makes a good captain, as opposed to a great player in a great team who just so happens to have been appointed captain.

Was Sole a great player as well as being a great captain? I mean, the best of the best (at the time). The two appear to be mutually inclusive when you look at the list.

ebop wrote:Was Sole a great player as well as being a great captain? I mean, the best of the best (at the time). The two appear to be mutually inclusive when you look at the list.

No, Sole was a good player but not a "great" one in my opinion. Then again Francois Pienaar wasn't a "great" player either. Kronfeld was a better openside every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Thought Pienaar was a blindside, even on Sunday. In that position, he wasn't far off the best in the world during his playing days, certainly around '95.

Didn't Mike Catt once say that about Pienaar in the build up to a match.... and then Pienaar played a glorious dummy on him which made Catt look pretty sheepish afterwards. Pienaar was some average player.... its just the average in SA at the time was world class everywhere else.

It reminds me of when Greg Rusedski once slammed Sampras prior to a match about being past it and about a step slower then his peak... when Sampras wiped the floor with him he said... "against greg I don't need to be a step quicker anyhow".

He played 6 in SA which is the openside position. But in reality, SA rarely play with a blindside anyhow... their last 2 have been Schalk Burger at 6'4 and 115kg and Frans Louw at 6'2 and 110kg.

fa0019 wrote:He played 6 in SA which is the openside position. But in reality, SA rarely play with a blindside anyhow... their last 2 have been Schalk Burger at 6'4 and 115kg and Frans Louw at 6'2 and 110kg.

Correct.

I would say though that if he played in Europe or elsewhere he'd probably be considered a blindside. Kruger was far more mobile and more akin to an openside.

SA doesn't do opensides in reality.

[quote="tigerleghorn"]

Norfolklass wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

Norfolklass wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Norfolklass wrote:Martin Johnson was chosen as captain for the British Lions because of his height. He was chosen as England captain because Dallalio was forced to give up the English Captaincy for some sting tabloid misdemeanour. Johnson was his understudy.  Great player yes, lifted the performance of other players by his presence, yes. Great captain, no.

:laugh:Jeebus, the people you get on this forum!

Defend your position then. Don't mock. I don't think he's a good captain, he's an all time great player, a great leader of men into battle, but for me not a great captain. Go on actually say something about rugby instead of your pathetic attempts at ironic humour.

Great leader of men but not a great captain!!! What the hell do you think a captain is if not a leader?

The point may be too subtle for you. As a leader on the pitch MJ was great and he inspired better performances from his team mates through sheer physical presence. However as a captain, for me, he lacks rugby intelligence and Laurence Dallallio was the better natural captain. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that Dallallio would have led England to World Cup Glory had not it been for indiscretions. In addition perhaps Lions Captaincy. MJ was an unsuccessful England Coach because he could not influence games off the pitch. You may not agree with me, but I hold a reasonable point of view and certainly not deserving to be laughed at by that most boring, tedious and unfunny poster, Cyril.

So, Dayglo's "minor indiscretions" would have enhanced his Captaincy credentials? If you don't think Johnson could influence games off the pitch you have missed Tigers dominance of the 2000's. Every fan would tell you he had the refs in his pocket. Remember him refusing to move in Dublin for the presentation to the president? I guess that had no bearing on the result right? Check out "Living with the Lions" to get some idea of his captaincy skills and follow me attitude. Just what was he missing?

"Living with the Lions" Is some kind of evidence!! Hahaha!! You heard of editing? If the man was such a great captain he'd be England coach by now. Oh he was! How did that go? But he believed in his own legend, thought he could bypass coaching at club level and go straight to HQ. MJ was just a big mother ugly f..k who raised his troops by his physical presence. His Lions selection was based on the same criteria. His career peak happened to coincide with England's greatest team and he was made captain of England by good fortune. Dallallio was a much better captain and would have captained England 2003 but for mistakes. Where is MJ now? If he was such a great Captain he would be coach of a top nation or club. Alternatively he would be a major TV pundit. He is none of these things. Why? Because he has negligible personality and charisma or true off the field leadership skills.

ebop wrote:Was Sole a great player as well as being a great captain? I mean, the best of the best (at the time). The two appear to be mutually inclusive when you look at the list.

He was a decent international standard player and one of the best of his era - clearly not in the same class as Guys like Earles but in a similar vein to Johnson. However the silent walk out onto the pitch in THAT Calcutta cup was one of the great pieces of leadership ever and I believe his team talk was something tremendous as well.

norfoklass - a great captain does not make for a great coach

Just to add my 2 cents worth I didnt vote cos I honestly couldnt separate the contenders.
I could make a serious case for all but two of the options being the greatest captain ever.

Thanks TJ for explaining Sole. I'd not heard of him before but know now and I also learnt a little about THAT game after looking it up. Sounded like a good leader.

Norfolklass wrote:If the man [MJ] was such a great captain he'd be England coach by now. Oh he was! How did that go?

Really. In what universe is this a given? Captains and coaches are a different kettle of fish (as MJ found out). MJ was team manager anyway.

ebop wrote:Thanks TJ for explaining Sole. I'd not heard of him before but know now and I also learnt a little about THAT game after looking it up. Sounded like a good leader.

You never heard of David Sole  

It was a great game and I beleive Sole made a difference by his leadership in the way Johnson did in the WC

Nup, I only recall Hastings from that era, I was young and we rarely saw Scotland or the Lions play back then without the tv coverage that we're spoilt with these days.

Think we can sweep Johnson's coaching stint under the carpet and just focus on his playing days.

ebop - various youtube / rugbydump pieces on it. Quite an occasion

Norfolklass

can you explain then why England would always lose the big matches when MJ was absent? When those with real captain qualities in your words like Dawson, Dillaglio, Greenwood etc were fully present.

England lost GS deciders in 2000 and 2001. Who was injured on those days?

Johnson was a great captain, but the way that McCaw has referees in his pocket from start to finish - chapeau, sir!

Best captain for having referees in his pocket was George Gregan... second to none.

Nothing to do with the McCaw awe most refs have but his intelligence was/is off the chart. He must have known Sun Tsu word for word.

Not quite true fa0019, there have been more then a few occasions when we have won a penalty, legitimately, when he had kept on gobbing to the ref and the decisions overturned against us, so don't think he really had them in his pocket.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

ebop wrote:Was Sole a great player as well as being a great captain? I mean, the best of the best (at the time). The two appear to be mutually inclusive when you look at the list.

No, Sole was a good player but not a "great" one in my opinion. Then again Francois Pienaar wasn't a "great" player either. Kronfeld was a better openside every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Kronfeld spent a couple of seasons at Tigers and couldn't hold a torch to Backy. Too busy thinking of his next trip to Newquay I guess.

Yeh, another example of a great All Black who came over for some cash and an easy life. Shame, because in his pomp he was an awesome flanker for NZ.