World player of year and junior world player of the year

Sam Davies is junior world player of the year, I think Halfpenny will become the World player of the year, so if that happens it would be a first for Wales. Compared to where Wales were in rugby terms 15 years ago (just before Henry became coach), it would be sign of just how much Wales has progressed and improved as a professional rugby-playing nation.

Don't see any connection here.

Halfpenny is a superb player and a phenomenal goal kicker, but he's a talented freak rather than a 'product' of any system. He was cut loose by his first region who couldn't spot the potential in him.

At home, Wales remain as capable of losing to Japan/Fiji/Canada etc. as they are of tearing England to shreds. Away from home, especially in the SH, we are mediocre. We have no strength in depth.

I'm all for championing our boys, but a 'sign of just how much Wales has progressed'? I'm afraid not.

Halfpenny deserves it, but I agree in that there isn't much of a connection. Wonder who'll be with him in the short list though. Any ideas?

Cas,

On the whole we have way more depth now than I can remember for a long time in most areas (some are weak I know) but I agree there's very little connection.

Also I would say the improvement been since Gatland not Henry, after all we won zip with Henry & Hansen

Sorry, but I don't believe Wales have as much depth as some would like to believe.

It is natural for supporters to rattle of three or four players as cover in depth, anyone can do that.

Wales went with a second string team to Japan and lost.

Having depth is more than just having players, depth suggests your back up players have a proven track record and has played significant number of tests matches.

There is a vast difference between potential and atual back up in positions.

Biltong wrote:Sorry, but I don't believe Wales have as much depth as some would like to believe.

It is natural for supporters to rattle of three or four players as cover in depth, anyone can do that.

Wales went with a second string team to Japan and lost.

Having depth is more than just having players, depth suggests your back up players have a proven track record and has played significant number of tests matches.

There is a vast difference between potential and atual back up in positions.

Disagree strongly. There is no excuse for the performance itself but the rate of absentees meant that we were fielding fourth or fifth choice in certain positions (including names like Spratt and Emyr Phillips, whom you would normally never see near the squad). The collective experience in the starting XV was virtually non-existent.

McBryde, under Gatland's wing, has done a decent job on the forwards but as a head coach and selector I simply can't take him seriously after that shambles.

Biltong,

I think we have in as far as what we have had in the past, the tour to Japan IMO was too young a touring party.

Not only were the player selected for the Lions not there but they strangely decided to rest a fair few experienced players that didn't tour.

We are still weak in few positions T/Head being my biggest worry.

Let me use SA as an example.

I can list you four players in a few positions where I believe we are strong.

Firstly scrum halve.

Fourie du Preez
Ruan Pienaar
Jano Vermaak
Piet van Zyl
Sarel Pretorius
Kobus Reinach
Charl Mcleod

Only two of them have experience, both play overseas, the rest are all very, very talented, yet they have zero experience.

Now I may believe we have depth, but that depth is unproven.

Fly halve.

Morne Steyn
Patrick Lambie
Johan Goosen
Elton Jantjies
Dimitri Catrakilis.

They all play very well at Super Rugby, yet only Morne Steyn is a regular, Patrick Lambie is supposedly seen as a flyhalve, but has not played 1 minute at flyhalve, Goosen has been injured this whole season.the rest has no experience.

I can go on and n, but the reality is our depth is unproven.

Saying someone is forth or fifth choice to base an argument for losing a match in one context, but then to use that same person as part of a group to prove depth doesn't win either argument.

Just my point of view.

Catrakalis looks good- deadly kicker from memory of his games this year. Looks like he'll never get near the top side though playing from there and those in front of him.

Depth is winning a world cup with your 4th choice flyhalf.

Taylorman wrote:Catrakalis looks good- deadly kicker from memory of his games this year. Looks like he'll never get near the top side though playing from there and those in front of him.

catrakilis signed with the Western Province and Stormers, he actually plaued for them last night.

Schalk Burger also played his first Currie Cup game last night in 18 months.

Biltong wrote:Let me use SA as an example.

I can list you four players in a few positions where I believe we are strong.

Firstly scrum halve.

Fourie du Preez
Ruan Pienaar
Jano Vermaak
Piet van Zyl
Sarel Pretorius
Kobus Reinach
Charl Mcleod

Only two of them have experience, both play overseas, the rest are all very, very talented, yet they have zero experience.

Now I may believe we have depth, but that depth is unproven.

Fly halve.

Morne Steyn
Patrick Lambie
Johan Goosen
Elton Jantjies
Dimitri Catrakilis.

They all play very well at Super Rugby, yet only Morne Steyn is a regular, Patrick Lambie is supposedly seen as a flyhalve, but has not played 1 minute at flyhalve, Goosen has been injured this whole season.the rest has no experience.

I can go on and n, but the reality is our depth is unproven.

Saying someone is forth or fifth choice to base an argument for losing a match in one context, but then to use that same person as part of a group to prove depth doesn't win either argument.

Just my point of view.

Bil, I think the point you make is valid. And I agree, you can't have it both ways - it's either good depth (with quality players in reserve) or you haven't got depth.

I think what Bedford may be referring to is Wales now having a bit more depth. We used to have only a first team of players. Any injuries and we were toast. Now we have maybe 22 decent players which gives us more options and makes us more resilient to injuries than we have been in the past. Still doesn't mean we've got that that much depth, but just a bit more than in the past which is novel for us.

True depth though is having maybe 3 top quality players fighting for each position, and sadly we're a long way off that in Wales, especially in key positions such as 9, 10, 8, 3 and 15.

Griff,

Spot on, in the past we all feared any of our proposed 1st XV getting injured as the back ups were at best poor.

Whilst I still live in dread of A Jones getting injured the back ups elsewhere don't fill me with dread (no9) aside.

For example we have 5 2nd rowers none of whom look out of place at the top table, when was the last time we could say that.

Well the problem with the junior award is that it cuts out the actual best young players of the year like James O'Connor etc who bypassed the world junior stage because they were already world class as teenagers. It's like the best of the rest award really.

Halfpenny is deservedly surely to be named world player of the year.

What it means for Wales... Well it's certainly not a bad thing but positive for their game itself??? Well SA have had 1 winner in 12 years, during that time they have won 1 World Cup, 2 trinations etc and been easily the 2nd best side in the world consistently for a decade, it's a team sport in the end so having a world class performer is not a guarantee of success on the pitch.

George weah was one of the best footballers in the world in the 90s... He won every award available, ballon d'or, world player of he year etc.... Did that improve Liberia?

But as I said, it's certainly not a bad thing, but how much good it actually means on its own is debatable.

Don't really see a link here. I also think Jack Clifford should have won IRB Junior Player of the Year. Don't know the IRB panel were watching but it certainly wasn't Sam Davies.

So no waiting for Halfpenny to be exposed during the year ends before we crown him?

Dont get me wrong he has been superb, it just feels like rewarding Ibrahimovich with the same tag while he keeps playing in an obviously weaker league.

My opinion.


As for Wales depth, surely it has to be tested first before we assume its there? I remember English cricket fans bragging about having two different bowling attacks that were the best in the world eighteen months ago, and then the best got demolished and the second best didnt do any better... Now, they cant find a third seamer, having boasted about having ten back ups.... Essentially - Shouldnt the back-up be tested before we annoint them?

Biltong wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Catrakalis looks good- deadly kicker from memory of his games this year. Looks like he'll never get near the top side though playing from there and those in front of him.

catrakilis signed with the Western Province and Stormers, he actually plaued for them last night.

Catrakallis and Engelbrecht were the two boys that we were hoping Grandpappy Solomons would bring with him to Edinburgh.

1/2Penny looks odds on. The only thing is I still think the most influential guy in the Welsh (and probably world) setup is a certain tighthead called Jones.

Biltong wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Catrakalis looks good- deadly kicker from memory of his games this year. Looks like he'll never get near the top side though playing from there and those in front of him.

catrakilis signed with the Western Province and Stormers, he actually plaued for them last night.

Thats interesting biltong...will be closer to bigger things with JDV keeping an eye on him.

No 7&1/2 wrote:1/2Penny looks odds on. The only thing is I still think the most influential guy in the Welsh (and probably world) setup is a certain tighthead called Jones.

More likely some chap called ben smith. I'd doubt jones will even makes the shortlist... Not because he doesn't necessarily deserve it but because the committee don't tend to go for these types of players.

fa0019 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:1/2Penny looks odds on. The only thing is I still think the most influential guy in the Welsh (and probably world) setup is a certain tighthead called Jones.

More likely some chap called ben smith. I'd doubt jones will even makes the shortlist... Not because he doesn't necessarily deserve it but because the committee don't tend to go for these types of players.

Thats true and a regretful reality of the position- a props true value can never be measured as easily as the glory guys.

Ben Smith would certainly be ours and possibly the SH's best chance, Etzebeth deserving a mention but the Lions and 6N efforts of 1/2P would take some beating. Ultra consistent and his 3rd test effort seals it for me.

Adam Jones is worth his considerable weight in gold to us, no one else comes near.

Bedfordwelsh

Is that because he is a standout performer against all his peers or is that Wales have no replacement of the same calibre?

Fa, I think it's a bit of both. Halfpenny kicks the penalties from halfway often because of penalties won at scrum time. Without Adam Jones we simply do not have that scrum superiority or, at worst, parity. He's worth a heap of extra points in a game, it's just that he's not the one kicking them!

I wouldn't say that we've got a totally dominant scrum, but we've dominated a number of scrums in important games in the last few years and that has given us the platform for the tries and penalties. It will be interesting to see how the new laws either help or hinder a player like Adam Jones.

Also, I'm not sure he's 'standout performer amongst all of his peers', but I can't remember too many times that the opposition has got the better of him in the last few years. It's certainly happened, and sometimes just for a scrum or two, but I can't remember him being out scrummaged for a whole game. He's done that to others though plenty of times.

BTW, I'm not suggesting he should be player of the year either! Just that he is as valuable to Wales as 1/2p, just in a different way. They make a good duo though.

disneychilly wrote:Halfpenny deserves it, but I agree in that there isn't much of a connection. Wonder who'll be with him in the short list though. Any ideas?

Ben Smith and Wesley Fofana.

The Saint wrote:Don't really see a link here. I also think Jack Clifford should have won IRB Junior Player of the Year. Don't know the IRB panel were watching but it certainly wasn't Sam Davies.

Agree - thought Jack Clifford was awesome. Blywdi english..........

Taylorman wrote:Thats true and a regretful reality of the position- a props true value can never be measured as easily as the glory guys.

The money paid by toulon (and others) for TH props suggests that at least salaries reflect the value of a good'un

fa0019 wrote:Bedfordwelsh

Is that because he is a standout performer against all his peers or is that Wales have no replacement of the same calibre?

fa,

I would say both, we (Wales) certainly have no replacement anywhere near his calibre and he is without doubt one of the top 3 T/Heads in world rugby at the moment and thats not biased one eyed Welshism etc most of his contempories would agree.

Biltong wrote:Having depth is more than just having players, depth suggests your back up players have a proven track record and has played significant number of tests matches.

There is a vast difference between potential and atual back up in positions.

Totally agree. This is a key point and often lost on fans. I've heard fans from my own country refer to kids who have never so much as played pro rugby as "depth", based on promising U20 appearances. Madness.

Adam Jones is the no 1 tighthead in the world at the moment IMO. No sure how the new laws will suit him better but he'll still be better than most international tightheads. Him going to France would be a blow because he would be over played.

profitius wrote:Adam Jones is the no 1 tighthead in the world at the moment IMO. No sure how the new laws will suit him better but he'll still be better than most international tightheads. Him going to France would be a blow because he would be over played.

Might get fit though.

not if he went on the same parisian diet Frans Steyn went on... looked a bit like Jones himself by the time he came back.

fa0019 wrote:not if he went on the same parisian diet Frans Steyn went on... looked a bit like Jones himself by the time he came back.

Steyn was always over weight though in all fairness the food is good there.

fa0019 wrote:not if he went on the same parisian diet Frans Steyn went on... looked a bit like Jones himself by the time he came back.

 

mut admit Jonesy doesnt look the specimen you'd picture seeing up there holding the worlds greatest player trophy aloft...

GunsGerms wrote:

profitius wrote:Adam Jones is the no 1 tighthead in the world at the moment IMO. No sure how the new laws will suit him better but he'll still be better than most international tightheads. Him going to France would be a blow because he would be over played.

Might get fit though.

The rugby in France is played at a slower pace.

Biltong wrote:Sorry, but I don't believe Wales have as much depth as some would like to believe.

It is natural for supporters to rattle of three or four players as cover in depth, anyone can do that.

Wales went with a second string team to Japan and lost.

Having depth is more than just having players, depth suggests your back up players have a proven track record and has played significant number of tests matches.

There is a vast difference between potential and atual back up in positions.

I can't believe you said the above and then went on to say:

Let me use SA as an example.

I can list you four players in a few positions where I believe we are strong.

Firstly scrum halve.

Fourie du Preez
Ruan Pienaar
Jano Vermaak
Piet van Zyl
Sarel Pretorius
Kobus Reinach
Charl Mcleod

Only two of them have experience, both play overseas, the rest are all very, very talented, yet they have zero experience.

Now I may believe we have depth, but that depth is unproven.

Fly halve.

Morne Steyn
Patrick Lambie
Johan Goosen
Elton Jantjies
Dimitri Catrakilis.
[
They all play very well at Super Rugby, yet only Morne Steyn is a regular, Patrick Lambie is supposedly seen as a flyhalve, but has not played 1 minute at flyhalve, Goosen has been injured this whole season.the rest has no experience.

I can go on and n, but the reality is our depth is unproven.

Saying someone is forth or fifth choice to base an argument for losing a match in one context, but then to use that same person as part of a group to prove depth doesn't win either argument.

I mean all your doing is naming scrum halve who are first choice in you club team after the only two halfbacks and scrumhalfs that are international level for south Africa. All the rest of the names apart form Morne Steyn, Du Preez, Lambie and Piennar are just strong club players who you believe to add depth to your team. Your doing what you are accusing us of doing by rattling 3 or 4 players for depth.
You have you list of 9's I could easily jut put:
Mike Phillips
Richie Rees
Lloyd Williams
Tavis Knoyle
Gareth Davies

It makes no difference. But I know and can except the fact that the only 2 descent players at international level are Mike Phillips and Richie Rees for us.
It's all a bit rich don't you think.

Taylorman wrote:

fa0019 wrote:not if he went on the same parisian diet Frans Steyn went on... looked a bit like Jones himself by the time he came back.

 

mut admit Jonesy doesnt look the specimen you'd picture seeing up there holding the worlds greatest player trophy aloft...

Hey, Phil the power Taylor doesn't look much of a specimen either but he is a 14 time World Champion. Adam isn't the slimmest but will out scrummage anyone out there.

To be fair jhamer he does say in the part you quoted 'I can go on and n, but the reality is our depth is unproven.'.

Jhamer25 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

fa0019 wrote:not if he went on the same parisian diet Frans Steyn went on... looked a bit like Jones himself by the time he came back.

 

mut admit Jonesy doesnt look the specimen you'd picture seeing up there holding the worlds greatest player trophy aloft...

Hey, Phil the power Taylor doesn't look much of a specimen either but he is a 14 time World Champion. Adam isn't the slimmest but will out scrummage anyone out there.

Aye but his darts are crap  

Jhamer25 wrote:I mean all your doing is naming scrum halve who are first choice in you club team after the only two halfbacks and scrumhalfs that are international level for south Africa. All the rest of the names apart form Morne Steyn, Du Preez, Lambie and Piennar are just strong club players who you believe to add depth to your team. Your doing what you are accusing us of doing by rattling 3 or 4 players for depth.
You have you list of 9's I could easily jut put:
Mike Phillips
Richie Rees
Lloyd Williams
Tavis Knoyle
Gareth Davies

It makes no difference. But I know and can except the fact that the only 2 descent players at international level are Mike Phillips and Richie Rees for us.
It's all a bit rich don't you think.

Jhamer, he was replying to someone and that was his point, that SA also have a few names that he believes are good but not many of them are proven internationally on a consistent basis. Hence why he said, "Let me use SA as an example."

No 7&1/2 wrote:To be fair jhamer he does say in the part you quoted 'I can go on and n, but the reality is our depth is unproven.'.

Yes he did for the fly halves but not the scrum halves.

Maybe I got the wrong end of the stick then with your post Bilt, i just thought you meant that South Africa had strength in depth at scrum half with the name you listed.
Soz if i was wrong and got the wrong end of the stick. I know we don't have strength in depth at 9 but i thought you meant we didn't and that South Africa did with that list of names.

My mistake

IRB player of the year Read,ConradSmith,and B.Smith must have a chance.Conrad Smith
is so consistent you tend not to notice him he just does the job all the time.

This is an interesting chain. I have always assumed that strength in depth in depth meant that you had at least 3 players in any position who are genuinely of international standard. I see that lots of people think differently about this.
 
Halfpenny would be a choice that nobody could really argue with but in real money, Kieran Reid has been a collossus this year and is currently the best player in the world. He has been incredibly consistent and the ABs pack is only about 70% as effective without him. Hey ho.

you don't get awards for being consistent... how many awards did Richard Hill win in his career? How many awards has BOD won... he's been on 4 lions series, 4 world cups and played in perhaps 12 6N and whilst he's won 3 6N awards for best player he's never been able to win the IRB award.. hell, in 2 of the years he won 6N player of the tournament he didn't even get shortlisted in the IRB award (06 & 07).

Although the only year I actually think he deserved it was in 2009... and then had Fourie Du Preez won it I wouldn't say he could be disgruntled.... it was a 50/50 call.... and then the IRB committee gave it to McCaw... who was average all year, won sweet FA with the ABs and it was probably due to the IRB having a problem with PDivvy's management style.

fa0019 wrote:you don't get awards for being consistent... how many awards did Richard Hill win in his career? How many awards has BOD won... he's been on 4 lions series, 4 world cups and played in perhaps 12 6N and whilst he's won 3 6N awards for best player he's never been able to win the IRB award.. hell, in 2 of the years he won 6N player of the tournament he didn't even get shortlisted in the IRB award (06 & 07).

Although the only year I actually think he deserved it was in 2009... and then had Fourie Du Preez won it I wouldn't say he could be disgruntled.... it was a 50/50 call.... and then the IRB committee gave it to McCaw... who was average all year, won sweet FA with the ABs and it was probably due to the IRB having a problem with PDivvy's management style.

Ireland were unbeaten in '09 with BOD as captain, they won their first grand slam in 50 years and he won the Heineken cup. He had an incredible year so really did deserve the title in '09.

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:you don't get awards for being consistent... how many awards did Richard Hill win in his career? How many awards has BOD won... he's been on 4 lions series, 4 world cups and played in perhaps 12 6N and whilst he's won 3 6N awards for best player he's never been able to win the IRB award.. hell, in 2 of the years he won 6N player of the tournament he didn't even get shortlisted in the IRB award (06 & 07).

Although the only year I actually think he deserved it was in 2009... and then had Fourie Du Preez won it I wouldn't say he could be disgruntled.... it was a 50/50 call.... and then the IRB committee gave it to McCaw... who was average all year, won sweet FA with the ABs and it was probably due to the IRB having a problem with PDivvy's management style.

Ireland were unbeaten in '09 with BOD as captain, they won their first grand slam in 50 years and he won the Heineken cup. He had an incredible year so really did deserve the title in '09.

Fourie Du Preez won the SR title, the 3N title and the Lions series. He was also standout in that year both as a player and a leader.

Both were very strong candidates.

George weah was one of the best footballers in the world in the 90s... He won every award available, ballon d'or, world player of he year etc.... Did that improve Liberia?

I was brought up in Liberia. The problem with this example is that whilst George and few a escaped...most of Liberia and its neighbour were more bothered about the wars going on. Not the same as a quick scuffle outside a kebab shop in Newcastle, Cardiff or Edinburgh...

You could use the example of a host of other players though, Denis Law, Ryan Giggs, George Best, Gareth Bale, Kenny Dalglish in football and the likes of Rupeni Caucau in rugby too.

Even Andy Murray in tennis applies. No.3 in the world and has been for what 5 years now?? Yet when it comes to Davis Cup he can't win it all on his own and its why team GB are very poor.