Ireland's November Series and Beyond...

First topic message reminder :

Right boys, I want you give realistic guess of how Ireland will do in the November tests. I want you to separate your hearts from your heads. How do you predict Ireland will do and how will this set them up for the Six nations based on your poll prediction for the Autumn tests.

Do you believe in Schmidt? Do you believe he is the catalyst for consistent success or will we yet again disappoint by firing hot and cold like recent championships have dictated. Is there cause for quite confidence or should we be holding are cards close to our chest.

Feel free to throw out your wildest aspirations on the table or to throw caution to the wind.

The rest is up to you....


Sat 9th Ireland vs Samoa - Autumn
Sat 16th Ireland vs Australia - Autumn
Sun 24th Ireland vs New Zealand

Not too fussed about what squad he picks, its all down to how he sets them up to play for me.

Although i really would have liked to see Kieran Marmion involved.

Don Alfonso - Just to let you know I have been on Munster fans and the general consensus on Courts inclusion is surprise but given Killers form maybe not so much.  

The biggest issue seems to be Reddens inclusion and also some mild surprise that DOC isn't included and delight for Coughlan although as has been pointed out it is possibly a year or two too late.

Personally Tom Court  , The thought of Wilson   and Trimble      

Anyhow...nothing too surprising in the squad selection. Looks like Cave just isn't going to make it internationally, nor should he.

Team will probably be pretty much the same as DKs. How they play will be a different matter...

Oh and still no announcement of the captain...hmmm I wonder.

geoff998rugby wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Notch wrote:You know what, Robin Copeland at the Cardiff Blues is a much more impressive player than James Coughlan.

Wilson is playing as well as anyone

Trimble doesn't deserve it on form this year

Has Wilson missed the boat at this stage? At 32, despite being a decent player he only has one cap for Ireland about 8 years ago. Robin Copeland would probably be the better prospect. Hopefully he can remain on an upward curve.

Wilson is a year younger than Coughlan and a better player.

Copeland does look promising but I think we should stick with our policy of only exceptional players outside Ireland being selected - like Bowe and Sexton. If Copeland is serious he needs to come home.

Copeland is younger and more promising than Coughlan and Wilson, so we're really cutting off our nose to spite our face there. Wilson is in better form than Coughlan certainly. Coughlan really is just cover though.

My big fear too is D'Arcy-BOD. Really underwhelmed about the prospect of that.

Don Alfonso wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Trimble is the biggest absentee bar those missing due to injury (Ferris etc.) or lack of game time (Gilroy).

I have always been a massive Trimble fan but Dave Kearney has been playing very well so I'm sure he will do fine.

Do we really need 3 OHs in the squad? Is Madigan becoming a utility player?

McFadden is in the squad because Ireland have suffered hugely since '09 for not having two kickers or more in the team. Hopefully Schmidt has plans to rectify this.

Schmidt is absolutly right to base his squad around the top province in Ireland. It is obviously not going to be a popular decision but has worked well for Gatland with Wales in the past so why not?

If only he had.

But I suppose he is more familiar with Ireland's second province...

Ulster are good too Don. Presume thats who you refer to?

If Henderson, Ferris and Gilroy were all fit and on form they would clearly be in the squad, probably first choice. Who else is missing do you think?

I was being tongue-in-cheek, fishing for a bit of outraged humourlessness from Leinster fans.

I don't think any Ulster players are missing. Dave Kearney isn't brilliant, but Trimble has been relatively underwhelming by his own high standards. I'd say Allen has actually been the form winger for Ulster, but he isn't trusted to start HEC. I certainly wouldn't argue for his inclusion. Wilson has been very good, better than Coughlan, but I don't need an Ireland call-up to confirm that for me, and neither player would get on the pitch.

I am taken aback about Court's inclusion. If I get bored later I may wander onto Munsterfans to see how they have taken the news that Angry Tom's in, Killer's out. With sanguine good grace, I'll wager.

I know you were just nice to know what players Ulster fans think are really motoring as I wouldnt see all their games.

geoff998rugby wrote:Rodders I expected a little imagination, I expected some of the up and coming lads to go along to feel what it is like to be part of the International set up - we haven't by and large got that.

What would be the harm of taking Marmion instead of one of the Leinster 9's
What would be the harm of taking Olding as well

Just two examples.

My biggest fear is he sticks with D'Arcy and BOD and this time next year he has neither and we have two brand new centres - we need to be undetaking succession planning now.
We also need to have a back up to Murray who is not in the twilight of his career

Marmion will probably be Leinsters 9 next year so he might have to wait until then.

Notch wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Notch wrote:You know what, Robin Copeland at the Cardiff Blues is a much more impressive player than James Coughlan.

Wilson is playing as well as anyone

Trimble doesn't deserve it on form this year

Has Wilson missed the boat at this stage? At 32, despite being a decent player he only has one cap for Ireland about 8 years ago. Robin Copeland would probably be the better prospect. Hopefully he can remain on an upward curve.

Wilson is a year younger than Coughlan and a better player.

Copeland does look promising but I think we should stick with our policy of only exceptional players outside Ireland being selected - like Bowe and Sexton. If Copeland is serious he needs to come home.

Copeland is younger and more promising than Coughlan and Wilson, so we're really cutting off our nose to spite our face there. Wilson is in better form than Coughlan certainly. Coughlan really is just cover though.

Wilson also did something to annoy the powers that be though didnt he? Is he being overlooked for past indiscretions?

Something quite similar to Zebo, I believe.

I suppose its more a case of who did they leave out


No Olding, Martin Moore, Kilcoyne, J Cronin, Marmion, Keatley, Luke Fitzgerald, Trimble, Wilson, Copeland, Cave, Gilroy


injured - Stephen Ferris (Ulster), Richardt Strauss (Leinster), Tommy O’Donnell (Munster), Jordi Murphy (Leinster), Simon Zebo (Munster), Donnacha Ryan (Munster), Iain Henderson (Ulster).

Fitz has done nothing in about 5 years to deserve inclusion. Injuries of course havent helped but no way I would have picked him.

geoff998rugby wrote:Rodders I expected a little imagination, I expected some of the up and coming lads to go along to feel what it is like to be part of the International set up - we haven't by and large got that.

What would be the harm of taking Marmion instead of one of the Leinster 9's
What would be the harm of taking Olding as well

Just two examples.

My biggest fear is he sticks with D'Arcy and BOD and this time next year he has neither and we have two brand new centres - we need to be undetaking succession planning now.
We also need to have a back up to Murray who is not in the twilight of his career

+1

Olding was one of the better players on our summer tour so he would hardly be all that new to the set up. I also don't agree with the praise for D'Arcy. He's been solid and made a few good carries that's about it.

Pretty predictable team me thinks:

Healy
Best
Ross
POC
Toner
Locky
SOB
Heaslip
Murray
Sexton
McFadden
D'Arcy
BOD
Bowe
Kearney

Bench: McGrath,Cronin,Fitz,McCarthy,POM,Reddan/Boss,Madigan,Earls or possibly Kearney.

Surprised that there hasnt been much whinging re the McLaughlin inclusion given that he isnt rated outside Leinster. Im delighted he is included as I think he is very under rated player and hope he features at some point.

How many games will Henderson, Ryan and Zebo be out for?

Wonder when captain will be named and who it will be. My guess is POC will get the nod even though I reckon Heaslip would be just as good.

Also one guy not getting much mention is Morris. Is he a little unlucky on form?

GunsGerms wrote:

Notch wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Notch wrote:You know what, Robin Copeland at the Cardiff Blues is a much more impressive player than James Coughlan.

Wilson is playing as well as anyone

Trimble doesn't deserve it on form this year

Has Wilson missed the boat at this stage? At 32, despite being a decent player he only has one cap for Ireland about 8 years ago. Robin Copeland would probably be the better prospect. Hopefully he can remain on an upward curve.

Wilson is a year younger than Coughlan and a better player.

Copeland does look promising but I think we should stick with our policy of only exceptional players outside Ireland being selected - like Bowe and Sexton. If Copeland is serious he needs to come home.

Copeland is younger and more promising than Coughlan and Wilson, so we're really cutting off our nose to spite our face there. Wilson is in better form than Coughlan certainly. Coughlan really is just cover though.

Wilson also did something to annoy the powers that be though didnt he? Is he being overlooked for past indiscretions?

Whatever Wilson did was a good 7 years ago and he has been a model professional since .
I would be almost certain it has nothing to do with his non selection.

As to Copeland I simply don't agree - we should not pick decent/prominsing players playing abroad.
If we wish to keep players at home they need to realise playing outside Ireland is a severe handicap to playing for Ireland.

Fair enough. Agreed.

geoff998rugby wrote:Rodders I expected a little imagination, I expected some of the up and coming lads to go along to feel what it is like to be part of the International set up - we haven't by and large got that.

That's fine Geoff but what players?

Marmion and Olding I agree with you but that's about it really.

We have Jackson, Madigan, Henshaw, D. Kearney, Marshall in the backs - Archer and Moore in the pack with Henderson not considered.

I think the balance is fine - only a couple of players to nit pick about.

Seems the biggest gripe is Reddan but obviously he's a guy Joe trusts to deliver his tempo of game.

This is just the first squad I wouldn't get too hung up about it, I'm sure we'll see players come and go before the 6N.

Moore wasnt picked.

Everyone who should have been picked was picked
Everyone who should have been picked wasn't picked.

So it's perfect - everyone is happy.  Those who are delighted and those who are annoyed.

I'd agree with Rodders, which always annoys me when I have to.... it's only a first shot across the bow for Schmidt.  But it happens to be three substantial opponents he's shooting at.  He needs a degree of certainty to get going with and familiarity helps him to help the team.  

Plus, I have a feeling he wants to do more than just begin a process - it's a silly reason to prepare for an International round of contests but O'Driscoll's last season is very much still a factor, whatever anyone might think about the pros and cons of such an emphasis.
I reckon, given that it was partially O'Driscoll that talked Schmidt into the Ireland role (not solely but an influence certainly), and also given that Schmidt then kinda tempted O'Driscoll himself to stay on another year - I feel Schmidt wants to give it a real shot at New Zealand - for his sake, the team's sake but also for that 'last chance' reason too.

So experience is probably required over too much imagination for now.  Will experience be enough?  I personally doubt it, but the fates require that we give a real honest go.

Looks a good selection to me. The number 34 is about right with some of the senior players dropping out before 2015.

He is obviously going to blend two teams in the first two games to pick the third for the ABs. Choosing Reddan and Boss is to give Sexton and Madigan every chance, while not choosing Paul Marshall doesn't augur well for Jackson.

He has probably chosen Coughlan as pure cover because he will name Heaslip as captain. POM is arguably the first choice 8 in the country, but will play 6 if Jamie is the skipper.

The Great Aukster wrote:

He is obviously going to blend two teams in the first two games to pick the third for the ABs. Choosing Reddan and Boss is to give Sexton and Madigan every chance, while not choosing Paul Marshall doesn't augur well for Jackson.

He has probably chosen Coughlan as pure cover because he will name Heaslip as captain. POM is arguably the first choice 8 in the country, but will play 6 if Jamie is the skipper.

Not having a go at you Aukster but if that is the  way Schmidt is thinking he is a dingbat.
you pick your best players in their best position.
When there is little or no difference you pick the rising star over the player on the downward slope.

Marmion should be in for one of the Leinster 9's no question
If Jackson's chances are diminished because Marshall is not good enough as a 9 and therefore is behind Madigan that's bonkers.
If POM is the best 8 play him there
Heaslip doesn't play so we need a new captain so what  - we are not short of captain material

Seriously the logic of the mad house

Can someone please explain to me what is happening with Steven Ferris? Can't find a definition of whats really happening with him?

Got a 6 month contract at the end of June - essentially giving him time to prove his fitness.

Took the moon boot off last week and is running and doing a lot of weights.
The intent is to do some contact work in a few weeks time.

I believe the last 2 HC games are being targeted

So far so good - fingers crossed

Golden wrote:Moore wasnt picked.

He wasn't? ah feck will he picked some other fella then ...anyway the original point stands....

geoff999rugby wrote:Got a 6 month contract at the end of June - essentially giving him time to prove his fitness.

Took the moon boot off last week and is running and doing a lot of weights.
The intent is to do some contact work in a few weeks time.

I believe the last 2 HC games are being targeted

So far so good - fingers crossed

Great news. Imagine a backrow of Heaslip, Ferris and SOB all at their best!! Up there with the best in the world.

http://telly.com/VBP96

Video of him on the treadmill - must have been taken this week

Its one or possibly 2 , we dont really know what to expect from Aus.

Or you could actually just falter against samoa and raise your game to aus!!

I would back 1 win.

Ireland will be very disapointed if they cannot beat Australia at home given our decent record against them and their slump in form. Just one win would in my eyes be failure.

We beat them at the WC when they were close to their best so should be able to beat them when misfiring at our home.

GunsGerms wrote:Ireland will be very disapointed if they cannot beat Australia at home given our decent record against them and their slump in form. Just one win would in my eyes be failure.

We beat them at the WC when they were close to their best so should be able to beat them when misfiring at our home.

Depends on what team Schmidt puts out. I don't have a warm fluffy feeling about about the AI's.

mystir is right.   Well...let's rephrase that.  He might prove to be right when we look back on the games.  The game or games we might win mightn't be the ones we're expecting to win... and vice versa.

Samoa could easily take our scalp and then we could excel ourselves against Australia.

I'm hoping two...I'm feeling one...three and it's an official Irish holiday until the new year.

If we win 3 there should be a new national holiday.... a lot of people badly underestimating Australia/ overestimating Ireland I think.

Australia looked in decent nick against both Argentina and NZ recently - people talk about poor form but who have they lost to - The Lions, NZ, SA?

We've lost to Italy, Scotland and England in the past few months.

If we beat the Wallabies that will be a big result. No way are we favourites.

Aye Fly., Its what you lot do..

You can beat anyone(bar the AB's) and lose to anyone. Same as many of you celt outfits.

SecretFly wrote:Samoa could easily take our scalp and then we could excel ourselves against Australia.

Samoa are above Ireland in the world rankings so aren't you trying to take their scalp?

Cyril wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Samoa could easily take our scalp and then we could excel ourselves against Australia.

Samoa are above Ireland in the world rankings so aren't you trying to take their scalp?

You try taking a Samoan's scalp, Cyril...and we'll just try to beat them at rugby

Besides, just about everyone and his grandkids is above us right now. We have a lot of climbing back to do. But we have our crampons and we're ready for the struggle

rodders wrote:If we win 3 there should be a new national holiday.... a lot of people badly underestimating Australia/ overestimating Ireland I think.

Australia looked in decent nick against both Argentina and NZ recently - people talk about poor form but who have they lost to - The Lions, NZ, SA?

We've lost to Italy, Scotland and England in the past few months.

If we beat the Wallabies that will be a big result. No way are we favourites.

Correct.

Cyril wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Samoa could easily take our scalp and then we could excel ourselves against Australia.

Samoa are above Ireland in the world rankings so aren't you trying to take their scalp?

Do you know when Samoa last beat Ireland. I know they are quite good but Ireland normally dont struggle at all against them.

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:If we win 3 there should be a new national holiday.... a lot of people badly underestimating Australia/ overestimating Ireland I think.

Australia looked in decent nick against both Argentina and NZ recently - people talk about poor form but who have they lost to - The Lions, NZ, SA?

We've lost to Italy, Scotland and England in the past few months.

If we beat the Wallabies that will be a big result. No way are we favourites.

Correct.

Against Italy we had 15 capped players missing. The most I can ever remember. All those games we lost by a score. Small tweaks and we are back in business.

Anything less than a win v Australia is failure.

GunsGerms wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:If we win 3 there should be a new national holiday.... a lot of people badly underestimating Australia/ overestimating Ireland I think.

Australia looked in decent nick against both Argentina and NZ recently - people talk about poor form but who have they lost to - The Lions, NZ, SA?

We've lost to Italy, Scotland and England in the past few months.

If we beat the Wallabies that will be a big result. No way are we favourites.

Correct.

Against Italy we had 15 capped players missing. The most I can ever remember. All those games we lost by a score. Small tweaks and we are back in business.

Anything less than a win v Australia is failure.

Well, I guess all we're saying Guns is that there is a genuine possibility then that it could be a failure (however one decides to react to such a 'failure')  I won't be too critical if I think we're playing the right kind of game that will eventually pay dividends.  

We genuinely don't know what Ireland will play like, we genuinely don't know how much Schmidt's more creative/expansive game will hold out defensively against high quality International competition.  
There is so much we don't know yet, and so much Schmidt himself doesn't know (and admits so) about the complexities of trying to have a team up and running with only scant time available to him.  That's all new to him.

So there's a real likelihood that Australia has the quality to run us off the field if we're not properly organised and ready.

Hmm I don't know what you are basing that on Guns - 2011 and 2009 are too long ago to be relevant.

In terms of form well the provinces haven't been on fire - a couple of guys did ok on the Lions - we stuttered through in the US and the last 6N campaign was a disaster.

The only other reference is the IRB ranking points and we are some way behind.

We have a new coach so expectations need to be realistic, if we win great but Joe deserves some time to bed his ideas in - the 6N will tell us a lot more.

Agree, rodders expectations have to be realistic. He will have them for 2 weeks before this all cracks off. Joe Schmidt will without doubt be an excellent coach in time. I believe he will change are play from that conservative boring old tat that Kidney bean had us playing to more focused game. We need an effective game plan that all players believe in!! This will show confidence on the field. That's when Ireland play world class.

I think wales are in a position where they NEED to beat aus. and realism goes out of the window for them tbh. They literally need to break the spell.

You irish shouldn't talk about failures of successes like its a black and white thing and based on an amount of games won rather than the actual performances and the relative strength of the opposition.. 

You have no reason to be that scared of aus. You have beaten them recently, you will be at home. But there are actually a better team than you(based on rankings).

What you lot want is a 3 solid performances.. you want to win and play well v samoa and you should want to give aus and SA a game and be competitive!- if you beat aus great- if you marginally lose - no biggie!

what would off course be typical of ireland is losing to samoa and beating one of the other two teams..

Then where have you got?

Nowhere- You need consistency!

see Declan Fitzpatrick is starting again for Ulster that makes 6 out of the last 7 games.

The guy should definitely be in the 23 for Samoa and I would start him against Australia - he could do some damage there

Infact we could do a lot worse than go with the following:

Samoa - 3 Archer, bench Fitzpatrick
Australia - 3 Fitzpatrick, bench Ross
NZ - 3 Ross, bench Archer

I know DF has been not the best at keeping injury free, but he seems to be really benefitting from the new scrum laws and is holding his own. Previously when I have sen him he has not had the best of times at the scrum and was very flakey in the loose. Looks like a good injury free run is doing wonders.

geoff999rugby wrote:see Declan Fitzpatrick is starting again for Ulster that makes 6 out of the last 7 games.

The guy should definitely be in the 23 for Samoa and I would start him against Australia - he could do some damage there

Infact we could do a lot worse than go with the following:

Samoa - 3 Archer, bench Fitzpatrick
Australia - 3 Fitzpatrick, bench Ross
NZ  - 3 Ross, bench Archer

I agree with the squad rotation in the first two games, and then pick the two most impressive out of the three for the ABs. What I don't understand is how you have changed your opinion of how to manage the players over the course of a few posts?

geoff999rugby wrote:you pick your best players in their best position.
When there is little or no difference you pick the rising star over the player on the downward slope.

The Great Aukster wrote:
I agree with the squad rotation in the first two games, and then pick the two most impressive out of the three for the ABs. What I don't understand is how you have changed your opinion of how to manage the players over the course of a few posts?

geoff999rugby wrote:you pick your best players in their best position.
When there is little or no difference you pick the rising star over the player on the downward slope.

Versatility? You always have to be ready to adapt to what's in front of you.  

geoff999rugby wrote:see Declan Fitzpatrick is starting again for Ulster that makes 6 out of the last 7 games.

The guy should definitely be in the 23 for Samoa and I would start him against Australia - he could do some damage there

Infact we could do a lot worse than go with the following:

Samoa - 3 Archer, bench Fitzpatrick
Australia - 3 Fitzpatrick, bench Ross
NZ  - 3 Ross, bench Archer

Dont jinx him geoff!

The Great Aukster wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:see Declan Fitzpatrick is starting again for Ulster that makes 6 out of the last 7 games.

The guy should definitely be in the 23 for Samoa and I would start him against Australia - he could do some damage there

Infact we could do a lot worse than go with the following:

Samoa - 3 Archer, bench Fitzpatrick
Australia - 3 Fitzpatrick, bench Ross
NZ  - 3 Ross, bench Archer

I agree with the squad rotation in the first two games, and then pick the two most impressive out of the three for the ABs. What I don't understand is how you have changed your opinion of how to manage the players over the course of a few posts?

geoff999rugby wrote:you pick your best players in their best position.
When there is little or no difference you pick the rising star over the player on the downward slope.

Simple TH is a position where no one stands out - who is the best scrummager between Archer, Fitzpatrick and Ross - debatable.
In addition I would add the physicality of TH makes it a bit of a one off position.

Elsewhere:
1 - Healy no brainer
2 - Best no brainer
9 - Murray - no brainer
10- Sexton - no brainer
etc etc

that does not apply to TH.

In summary Ross is probably, just, still the best but he is in palpable decline and TH is probably the one position who cannot just throw players in at the deep end so others need game time.

Forget about rankings. They're not relevant when setting expectations. Bottom line is we have the resources and personel to beat everyone bar NZ at home and that should be the goal each and every time. In fact I know it is the goals so I will be disapointed if we dont at least beat Samoa and Aus.

I'm just looking for good attacking performances in all of the games. Thats something I havn't seen from an Ireland team. Is it too early to expect it from Schmidt? No because half the squad are players who have worked with him for years.


I don't care either if Samoa are ranked above Ireland. They're limited enough and Ireland should and will take advantage of their weaknesses.