Ireland's November Series and Beyond...

First topic message reminder :

Right boys, I want you give realistic guess of how Ireland will do in the November tests. I want you to separate your hearts from your heads. How do you predict Ireland will do and how will this set them up for the Six nations based on your poll prediction for the Autumn tests.

Do you believe in Schmidt? Do you believe he is the catalyst for consistent success or will we yet again disappoint by firing hot and cold like recent championships have dictated. Is there cause for quite confidence or should we be holding are cards close to our chest.

Feel free to throw out your wildest aspirations on the table or to throw caution to the wind.

The rest is up to you....


Sat 9th Ireland vs Samoa - Autumn
Sat 16th Ireland vs Australia - Autumn
Sun 24th Ireland vs New Zealand

rodders wrote:Paddy Jackson has just given 2 heino back to back master classes in fly half play - along the way pulling off the finest try saving cover tackle since Gregan nailed Jeff Wilson to win the bledisoe cup back in the late 90s.

Touhy, Henry, Wilson and Best all fronted up against a massive Montpellier pack. Bowe and Trimble still a bit rusty but getting there. Marshall was solid at 12 but Olding, who looks a bit special, is pushing him.

O'Mahoney, Jonny Murphy, Keatley, Murray,Downey and Kilcoyne all looked good in a fairly average Munster performance.

O'Connell starting to look his age a bit now, I'm sorry to say. Earls was pretty rubbish too I thought, bar one good line break were he ran away from his support.

Missed the Leinster game but heard SOB had another stormer?

A form Ireland side would have to have a spine of Ulster players on the field I would have thought.
Out of Ulster, Best, Touhy, Henry, Jackson, Marshall, Bowe.
Out of Leinster, SOB, Heaslip, R Kearney
Out of Connacht, Henshaw, Marmion.
Out of Munster, POC, Murray

I think LH, TH, OC and wing are up for grabs.  I also think Touhy, Henry, Jackson and Marshall could be unfortunate in selection.

GloriousEmpire wrote:They'll beat Samoa. Just. Probably some contestable yellow cards and scrum calls in there.

Australia by 20+. NZ by 30.

Not Schmit's fault. He just doesn't have the players currently.

GE, why do you think NZ would do so poorly. Can they only manage a 10 point better margin than Oz on a wee minnow?

I would expect something like

Healy
Best
Ross
POC
Ryan
O'Mahoney
O'Brien
Heaslip
Murray
Sexton
Earls
Marshall
BOD
Bowe
Kearney

On form I think you could go

Healy
Best
Moore
Tuohy
Toner/POC
Wilson
O'Brien
Heaslip
Marmion
Jackson
Earls
D'arcy/Marshall
Cave
Bowe
Kearney

Just goes to show that form doesn't necessarily mean a stronger team. I wouldn't be confident if my 'form' team took the pitch. If Joe has a little more food for thought its a good thing though

geoff998rugby wrote:

rodders wrote:  Trimble is first choice wing at Ulster and Tommy and Gilroy have been fighting it out for the other slot.   

Rodders no idea where you get that idea from. Tommy is first choice at Ulster no question.
In fact unless Trimble ups his game, when Gilroy is fit, he will find himself on the bench

Just speculation Geoff based on the fact that Trimble has never been dropped or subbed under Anscombe, unlike Tommy.

It's not a secret that they both favour the 14 jersey and Ancombe's selection speaks for itself really.

Tommy is a Class 1 cotton-wooler though so maybe IRFU are sending morse-code message to Anscombe "Drop - Tommy - Stop - or - Sub - him - Stop"

Pub quiz time

Put the following in chronological order:

a) Ulster winning the Heino
b) The Undertones teenage kicks release
c) The sinking of the titanic
d) Tommy Bowe last playing 80 min for Ulster.

You can't do it can you?....

Anscombe rates Tommy above all other wingers

geoff998rugby wrote:Anscombe rates Tommy above all other wingers

That wasn't the Question! Answer the question!

When did Tommy last sink the Undertones?!

I think Trimble has been pretty poor recently myself but I can't claim to having seen all the Ulster games I should have.

GloriousEmpire wrote:They'll beat Samoa. Just. Probably some contestable yellow cards and scrum calls in there.

Australia by 20+. NZ by 30.

Not Schmit's fault. He just doesn't have the players currently.

Where are Australia stronger than Ireland? Genuine question, I'm not talking about individuals but areas of the team.

Schmidt and Kiss long (32min) interview for anyone interested.

http://www.newstalk.ie/player/podcasts/Off_The_Ball/Rugby_on_Off_The_Ball/36114/2/Joe_Schmidt_&_Les_Kiss

So who are the 6-8 guys they see a senior players/Captaincy candidates?

BOD, POC, Heaslip, Best, POM, Sexton... two more?

Kearney I'd imagine and maybe Bowe or O'Brien?

Chris Henry maybe.

I think Heaslip should retain the captaincy or else Rory Best. POM would be the other candidate but IF Ferris ever made it back he'd be under pressure for his shirt.

Schmidt might have fancied giving it to POC to keep Munster branch happy but for me he hasn't shown enough form and fitness this season yet. He'd be a bit of a risk given his injury record.

POM showed the absence, in the summer tour, of a cool head.
To be honest he was close to losing it.

Not ready for the big stage captancy wise.

Also, even without Ferris, he is not assured of his place.
If we do as we should do against Australia and play a 7 - probably Henry
then he is going head to head to Heaslip for the Number 8 shirt

geoff998rugby wrote:POM showed the absence, in the summer tour, of a cool head.
To be honest he was close to losing it.

To tell the truth, his hot head was kinda the medicine the Irish team needed to take us past those two teams.  I'm not a hot-head fan in general but this was an Irish team that wasn't exactly getting things its own way (with the divisions of labour meaning a Development Irish side was playing on the other side of the world and the main Irish stars were with the Lions.)

Without POM's hot head, I'm not altogether sure we'd have had enough fight in us to win that game against US

Cant agree - passion is find/essential losing self control is not good.

A less pumped captain on the day would have lost, in my opinion.  
It was often all we were surviving on as the US guys were belligerent, strong and they could sense rookie weakness in the Irish psyche.

Passion is the balancing act between enough desirable emotional input and the undersirable 'losing it'.  Paul O'Connell has often lost it.  O'Driscoll too.  Ireland needed something defiant against that US team.  A risk but needed in that game.  Only my opinion though, you're of course free to disagree.

From Twitter:

Sinéad Kissane ‏@sineadkissane 3m
Joe Schmidt will name his Ireland squad for November Tests tomorrow. Should we expect any curveballs?

Well? What are people's predictions?

If there is an Ulster curveball it will be Olding
Leinster or Munster maybe one of their young props

The closer we get to the test series the more pessimistic I am about facing the Aussies- it will be close that one.

Any curve balls from Joe?

Ok I'll take a pot shot on this one.

1) Marmion. I reckon he will make the squad and he certainly deserves too, he is probably the form 9 in Ireland at the minute.

2) Moore. I think Schmidt could very well take a chance on him as Ross has been poor, Fitzpatrick is always a step away from injury and Archer is nothing more than grand.

3) A lock. I think the squad will have all of Ryan, Toner, Tuohy and Henderson as backrow/lock cover BUT who plays alongside POC is another call entirely. And Mike McCarthy and Donners could well get in.

4) Olding. He has a good shout in terms of getting in I think as Cave may not with BOD and Earls ahead of him (not too sure about that??) but it may mean that they need to take another 12, so Marshall and one of Olding/Darcy. Also Olding is more versatile than Cave.

Yeah I think Marshall or Marmion will get in at Reddan's expense.

Paddy Jackson to start at 10 with Sexton on the bench. ROG as water boy.

You heard it here first.

I think Reddan has been poor, Boss ok and Murray good. I think Marmion's skills are way out of Marshall's league, Marshall is quick of thought and nimble but Marmion is such a good all round option.

Marmion (at the expense of Boss), Henshaw, McLaughlin. Different 6,7,8 combination in all three tests.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Any curve balls from Joe?

Ok I'll take a pot shot on this one.

1) Marmion. I reckon he will make the squad and he certainly deserves too, he is probably the form 9 in Ireland at the minute.

2) Moore. I think Schmidt could very well take a chance on him as Ross has been poor, Fitzpatrick is always a step away from injury and Archer is nothing more than grand.

3) A lock. I think the squad will have all of Ryan, Toner, Tuohy and Henderson as backrow/lock cover BUT who plays alongside POC is another call entirely. And Mike McCarthy and Donners could well get in.

4) Olding. He has a good shout in terms of getting in I think as Cave may not with BOD and Earls ahead of him (not too sure about that??) but it may mean that they need to take another 12, so Marshall and one of Olding/Darcy. Also Olding is more versatile than Cave.

I'd agree with that Pete but I think Cave might also have a chance. Bit harsh on Archer who has performed well this season and last in the scrum and is decent in the loose.


Marmion and Moore are in very good form and quality players. Olding has big potential.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote: , Fitzpatrick is always a step away from injury and Archer is nothing more than grand.

.

Historically correct but not this year.

He has started 5 of the last 6 games and done very well.
His fitness is definitely better this year than this.
He should be in the 23 because there is no other Irish TH with a better scrummaging technique

From Irishrugby.ie

"The Ireland coaching staff have announced a squad of 34 players for the forthcoming Guinness Series against Samoa, Australia and New Zealand in the Aviva Stadium this November.
The make up of the squad is consistent with recent years. The sole exile included is British and Irish Lions outhalf Johnny Sexton.
There are three uncapped players included in the squad. David Kearney who was on the bench for Ireland back in 2012, is included alongside Jack McGrath and James Coughlan.

Those unavailable through injury, including Stephen Ferris, Richardt Strauss, Tommy O'Donnell, Jordi Murphy and Simon Zebo have unfortunately been added to over the weekend with Donnacha Ryan (knee) and Iain Henderson (toe) also ruled out.

Ireland Head Coach, Joe Schmidt, commented: "The squad combines players who have shown form in the domestic season mixed with those who have a proven record at international level.

"As always there were some very difficult decisions. Some players have had limited opportunity to impress due to injury and others have performed very well and it was difficult to leave them out.

"The Guinness Series will demand plenty from the squad and I know they'll be motivated by the challenge."

The game against New Zealand is already sold out with tickets for Australia and Samoa selling fast.

Ireland Squad (Guinness Series 2013)

Backs
Isaac Boss (Terenure College/Leinster)
Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)
Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster)
David Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster)*
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)
Luke Marshall (Ballymena/Ulster)
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Jonathan Sexton (Racing Metro 92)

Forwards
Stephen Archer (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
James Coughlan (Dolphin/Munster)*
Tom Court (Ulster)
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon/Ulster)
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster)
Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster)
Mike McCarthy (Leinster)
Jack McGrath (St. Mary's College/Leinster)*
Kevin McLaughlin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster)
Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster)
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
Mike Sherry (Garryowen/Munster)
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)

*denotes uncapped player"

No Marmion, Olding, Gilroy or Moore.  

I'm surprised Court is picked ahead of Kilcoyne. Also thought Coughlans chance had gone, cant see him getting capped now anyway.

Yeah I am a tad disappointed but I don't know why exactly. From deccies squads you would say Kilcoyne is the big loser. Wilson and cave are possibly unlucky as is marmion. Court and Coughlin possibly fortunate.

Olding and Gilroy have had zero rugby so can't argue that. Even though he hasn't set the world on fire I am a tad baffled by dave Kearney ahead of Trimble

17 Leinster players
8 Ulster players
7 Munster players
1 Connacht
1 Racing Metro

Jeezus, talk about sticking with what you know!  

Hopefully the longer Schmidt goes on in the job the more confident he will become with branching out from the Leinster players he knows best and/or the more other players will become attuned to his way of doing things.

There's an argument that if he wants to base Ireland on the way Leinster have played, who better than Leinster players but when you see the likes of Dave Kearney ahead of Trimble it's massively disappointing. Thats a decision based on the familiarity they have with Kearney not the ability of the two players.

Golden wrote:No Marmion, Olding, Gilroy or Moore.  

I'm surprised Court is picked ahead of Kilcoyne.  Also thought Coughlans chance had gone, cant see him getting capped now anyway.

Neither Olding nor Gilroy have actually played enough to warrant a call-up, to be honest.

And I don't think that Trimble has been in great form so far this season. Possibly Kilcoyne is in the same boat?

Yeah it's strange to see angry Tom back up the pecking order too. Coughlan I'm just not sure of. Last season he would have been deserving but from the limited amount I have seen this season he hasn't inspired me.

The presence of boss and reddan is the only massively disappointing thing for me though.

You know what, Robin Copeland at the Cardiff Blues is a much more impressive player than James Coughlan.

I knew there would be leinster bias but this is shocking, altho i am most disappointed by the exclusion of lukey fitz.

I've been looking forward to Schmidt's reign more than anything and this has put a serious downer on it.

Reddan, Kearney, D'Arcy, McFadden, Boss, Court, Ross, Coghlan, should not be there.

Olding, Trimble, Marshall, Marmion, Wilson, Fitzgerald, Kilcoyne, and Moore, should all be in.

Disappointed there is no Marmion or Moore.
Surprised there is Reddan, Court, Coughlan

Trimble is the biggest absentee bar those missing due to injury (Ferris etc.) or lack of game time (Gilroy).

I have always been a massive Trimble fan but Dave Kearney has been playing very well so I'm sure he will do fine.

Do we really need 3 OHs in the squad? Is Madigan becoming a utility player?

McFadden is in the squad because Ireland have suffered hugely since '09 for not having two kickers or more in the team. Hopefully Schmidt has plans to rectify this.

Schmidt is absolutly right to base his squad around the top province in Ireland. It is obviously not going to be a popular decision but has worked well for Gatland with Wales in the past so why not?

Notch wrote:You know what, Robin Copeland at the Cardiff Blues is a much more impressive player than James Coughlan.

Wilson is playing as well as anyone

Trimble doesn't deserve it on form this year

GunsGerms wrote:Trimble is the biggest absentee bar those missing due to injury (Ferris etc.) or lack of game time (Gilroy).

I have always been a massive Trimble fan but Dave Kearney has been playing very well so I'm sure he will do fine.

Do we really need 3 OHs in the squad? Is Madigan becoming a utility player?

McFadden is in the squad because Ireland have suffered hugely since '09 for not having two kickers or more in the team. Hopefully Schmidt has plans to rectify this.

Schmidt is absolutly right to base his squad around the top province in Ireland. It is obviously not going to be a popular decision but has worked well for Gatland with Wales in the past so why not?

If only he had.

But I suppose he is more familiar with Ireland's second province...

 

Notch wrote:17 Leinster players
8 Ulster players
7 Munster players
1 Connacht
1 Racing Metro

Jeezus, talk about sticking with what you know!  

Yep Deccie mark two - pick the run of mill from my old province - thought we had moved beyond that

If Reddan, Kearney, D'Arcy, McFadden or Boss played for any other Province they would not be there

geoff998rugby wrote:

Notch wrote:You know what, Robin Copeland at the Cardiff Blues is a much more impressive player than James Coughlan.

Wilson is playing as well as anyone

Trimble doesn't deserve it on form this year

Has Wilson missed the boat at this stage? At 32, despite being a decent player he only has one cap for Ireland about 8 years ago. Robin Copeland would probably be the better prospect. Hopefully he can remain on an upward curve.

Don Alfonso wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Trimble is the biggest absentee bar those missing due to injury (Ferris etc.) or lack of game time (Gilroy).

I have always been a massive Trimble fan but Dave Kearney has been playing very well so I'm sure he will do fine.

Do we really need 3 OHs in the squad? Is Madigan becoming a utility player?

McFadden is in the squad because Ireland have suffered hugely since '09 for not having two kickers or more in the team. Hopefully Schmidt has plans to rectify this.

Schmidt is absolutly right to base his squad around the top province in Ireland. It is obviously not going to be a popular decision but has worked well for Gatland with Wales in the past so why not?

If only he had.

But I suppose he is more familiar with Ireland's second province...

Ulster are good too Don. Presume thats who you refer to?

If Henderson, Ferris and Gilroy were all fit and on form they would clearly be in the squad, probably first choice. Who else is missing do you think?

Bring back Deccie! ....

Only joking ... ah come on lads what did yous expect?

He has to get results here so he's sticking with players, initially, that he knows can deliver for him.

A few of the Leinster lads are lucky boys - namely Madigan, D'arcy and Reddan but overall there aren't too many surprises here.

Trimble has played poorly so far this season so his omission can't be a big surprise. Dave K has a good understanding with Rob and is good under the high ball. He's probably fullback cover too along with Henshaw.

Delighted that Touhy has made the cut, disappointed for Paul Marshall though. I'd have gone for Wilson ahead of Coughlan too.

Keatley is unlucky.

Remains to be seen what happens. If he essentially looking to implement the Leinster style of play onto Ireland it makes sense to select from that base.

That being said he needs to identify the guys from Leinster that aren't up to implementing said gameplan at international level quickly. The only position I see as being totally up in the air is alongside POC. Big chance for one of Tuohy, toner or McCarthy

rodders wrote:Bring back Deccie! ....

Only joking ... ah come on lads what did yous expect?

He has to get results here so he's sticking with players, initially, that he knows can deliver for him.

A few of the Leinster lads are lucky boys - namely Madigan, D'arcy and Reddan but overall there aren't too many surprises here.

Trimble has played poorly so far this season so his omission can't be a big surprise. Dave K has a good understanding with Rob and is good under the high ball. He's probably fullback cover too along with Henshaw.

Delighted that Touhy has made the cut, disappointed for Paul Marshall though. I'd have gone for Wilson ahead of Coughlan too.

Keatley is unlucky.    

Why is Madigan lucky? We all know what he is capable of.

Darcy is also having a very decent season and its just popular to slate him. Who should replace him?

I wouldnt be opposed to Marshall being given a chance.

Keatley has defo been playing well.

Madigan is lucky because he's playing second fiddle to Copporth, whilst Keatley is playing very well. If Joe was consistant in his selection Madigan probably shouldn't be in.

I don't agree with the plaudits D'arcy I getting - he is very ineffective in attack and not as solid as made out in defence..... I don't think I've ever been one to tag along with popular opinion (hence my lack of popularity)?

If we pick Mads based on what we know he can do, rather than is doing, should the same not be applied to Gilroy or Olding?

I'm reasonably ok with the squad, in terms of the 50:50 calls he's gone with what he knows, which is what I would do in his position....

GunsGerms wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Notch wrote:You know what, Robin Copeland at the Cardiff Blues is a much more impressive player than James Coughlan.

Wilson is playing as well as anyone

Trimble doesn't deserve it on form this year

Has Wilson missed the boat at this stage? At 32, despite being a decent player he only has one cap for Ireland about 8 years ago. Robin Copeland would probably be the better prospect. Hopefully he can remain on an upward curve.

Wilson is a year younger than Coughlan and a better player.

Copeland does look promising but I think we should stick with our policy of only exceptional players outside Ireland being selected - like Bowe and Sexton. If Copeland is serious he needs to come home.

GunsGerms wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Trimble is the biggest absentee bar those missing due to injury (Ferris etc.) or lack of game time (Gilroy).

I have always been a massive Trimble fan but Dave Kearney has been playing very well so I'm sure he will do fine.

Do we really need 3 OHs in the squad? Is Madigan becoming a utility player?

McFadden is in the squad because Ireland have suffered hugely since '09 for not having two kickers or more in the team. Hopefully Schmidt has plans to rectify this.

Schmidt is absolutly right to base his squad around the top province in Ireland. It is obviously not going to be a popular decision but has worked well for Gatland with Wales in the past so why not?

If only he had.

But I suppose he is more familiar with Ireland's second province...

Ulster are good too Don. Presume thats who you refer to?

If Henderson, Ferris and Gilroy were all fit and on form they would clearly be in the squad, probably first choice. Who else is missing do you think?

I was being tongue-in-cheek, fishing for a bit of outraged humourlessness from Leinster fans.

I don't think any Ulster players are missing. Dave Kearney isn't brilliant, but Trimble has been relatively underwhelming by his own high standards. I'd say Allen has actually been the form winger for Ulster, but he isn't trusted to start HEC. I certainly wouldn't argue for his inclusion. Wilson has been very good, better than Coughlan, but I don't need an Ireland call-up to confirm that for me, and neither player would get on the pitch.

I am taken aback about Court's inclusion. If I get bored later I may wander onto Munsterfans to see how they have taken the news that Angry Tom's in, Killer's out. With sanguine good grace, I'll wager.

Rodders I expected a little imagination, I expected some of the up and coming lads to go along to feel what it is like to be part of the International set up - we haven't by and large got that.

What would be the harm of taking Marmion instead of one of the Leinster 9's
What would be the harm of taking Olding as well

Just two examples.

My biggest fear is he sticks with D'Arcy and BOD and this time next year he has neither and we have two brand new centres - we need to be undetaking succession planning now.
We also need to have a back up to Murray who is not in the twilight of his career