Welsh clubs back Anglo-French tournament

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24632135

Didn't see that coming, though I haven't been following this particularly closely.

Perhaps there is a good reason for a public statement but I'd much rather have these repositionings taking place in private.

However the WRU have not backed it have they?  Its the first crack in the solidarity tho and a very disappointing move by the clubs.

I would expect similar statements from Ireland, Scotland and Italy in the coming weeks.

The war is over, but we won't know who the winners and losers are until the smoke clears and some details about the new competition become public.

TJ wrote:However the WRU have not backed it have they?  Its the first crack in the solidarity tho and a very disappointing move by the clubs.  

First cracks? That is now twenty nine teams supporting the new competition (not thirty as Toulon are in a huff). That represents a significant majority.

Can we really continue with a competition which the majority of teams do not want to be in?

I've been saying this for weeks on different topics on here and I've been totally ignored, when the WRU give us (Regions) our money from TV deals and give us decent recompense for our players, when taking them for needless matches, we might have stayed with them.

Exiled, can you elaborate on the Toulon thing? Sounds interesting!

It seems that they want to make it clear as to where their intentions lie thus enabling them to be able to properly plan for the future. I hope this allows them to hold on to their home grown rugby talent. A bold move.

Griff wrote:Exiled, can you elaborate on the Toulon thing? Sounds interesting!

Here ya go Griff

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/news/10387391/Heineken-Cup-holders-Toulon-threaten-to-boycott-breakaway-Rugby-Champions-Cup.html

Its funny that people still think there is going to be an anglo-french tournament.

Notch wrote:I would expect similar statements from Ireland, Scotland and Italy in the coming weeks.

The war is over, but we won't know who the winners and losers are until the smoke clears and some details about the new competition become public.

I'm not at all convinced the war is over. Maybe just another shot across the bow considering the timing. Seems in keeping with the tactics previously employed by PRL.
It will be interesting to hear what the Unions response is at the conclusion of their meeting.

One finger up to the wru at the same time. Shrewd move by rrw...

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Its funny that people still think there is going to be an anglo-french tournament.

Would a more acceptable thread title be: Welsh clubs give support to proposed new Rugby Champions Cup Competition? Is that what you're getting at?

TJ wrote:However the WRU have not backed it have they?  Its the first crack in the solidarity tho and a very disappointing move by the clubs.  

Well I suspect that the WRU want the Regions to be dissolved so they can start again, but this statement is no surprise really. The mutterings have been there for almost two years.

The key players in all of this are SRU. They can least afford to lose the revenue stream from Europe - and so far have been the only Union to publicly suggest that changes may be necessary. As a Union they are the most likely to agree to a "new" tournament where the Unions control the participation agreement, but the clubs have a much bigger say in commercial deals.

Should SRU make positive comments about such a "new" tournament then we can expect to see RFU make it's thoughts public, then FFR will strike a deal with their clubs and approve a tournament should they agree to foreign quotas. FIR will probably do whatever FFR do and under pressure from the Provincial administrators IRFU would also come on board. Leaving Roger Lewis isolated. I can see him still refusing to countenance such a deal though.

If there is a new tournament - lets just hope it is one that in a couple of years time we can look back and say - yes actually that was a fair deal.

stub wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Its funny that people still think there is going to be an anglo-french tournament.

Would a more acceptable thread title be: Welsh clubs give support to proposed new Rugby Champions Cup Competition? Is that what you're getting at?

I was just going with the BBC headline...

Cyril wrote:

Griff wrote:Exiled, can you elaborate on the Toulon thing? Sounds interesting!

Here ya go Griff

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/news/10387391/Heineken-Cup-holders-Toulon-threaten-to-boycott-breakaway-Rugby-Champions-Cup.html

Cheers Cyril!

Its certainly telling that the unions have said nothing - I think this is a pre-emptive strike by the welsh clubs to try to push the WRU.

I very much doubt the SRU will go along - but who can tell. it depends on what has been promised behind the scenes

I like this

The article tells us very little but it's got people gnashing their teeth again.

Good old Beeb!

Cyril wrote:I like this

The article tells us very little but it's got people gnashing their teeth again.

Good old Beeb!

Don't you think this is a significant development then Cyril?

I can see that it doesn't give us a huge clue as to the eventual outcome but even so...

Cyril wrote:I like this

The article tells us very little but it's got people gnashing their teeth again.

Good old Beeb!

I'm not sure anyone is gnashing their teeth, Cyril. Well, not yet anyway  

True, the article doesn't really tell us anything new, or that many didn't suspect anyway, but the timing is revealing I think. The Unions, for the most part, have maintained a silence, but would expect a strong statement from them soon. Hopefully anyway.

TJ some quotes from Mark Dodson:

"We believe if Edinburgh finished 11th last year, they should not be involved in the Heineken Cup,"

"We are prepared to look at meritocracy and some of the other tweaks that might need to be made to allow that to happen.
"But don't let anyone be under any doubt, we are working very hard to make this work.
"There has to be give and take. It can't be all take or it won't work."

"I won't pretend it's not a serious financial issue for the SRU but there is still a lot of talking to do."

And there was one I can not find now about having to possibly accept no guaranteed places (He shoudl insist on at least 1 imo).


All of this suggests to me that SRU are not willing to be shafted by their southern neighbours but know that they may have to be pragmatic and get the very best deal they can to ensure survival.

stub wrote:

Cyril wrote:I like this

The article tells us very little but it's got people gnashing their teeth again.

Good old Beeb!

Don't you think this is a significant development then Cyril?

I can see that it doesn't give us a huge clue as to the eventual outcome but even so...

It is significant, but not necessarily surprising. I just think that 'negotiations' have gone a lot further than we previously thought.

I also think people should stop thinking of it as an Anglo-French Cup (yes, it's the Beeb headline) but more of a new tournament instigated by the actions of these nations. As soon as people think of a new tournament as joint-ownership the better. I reckon this has already happened and the powers-that-be are probably a lot more reconciled to something concrete than we imagine. If that makes sense!

 

Cyril wrote:I like this

The article tells us very little but it's got people gnashing their teeth again.

Good old Beeb!

VietGwentRevisited wrote:TJ some quotes from Mark Dodson:

"We believe if Edinburgh finished 11th last year, they should not be involved in the Heineken Cup,"

"We are prepared to look at meritocracy and some of the other tweaks that might need to be made to allow that to happen.
"But don't let anyone be under any doubt, we are working very hard to make this work.
"There has to be give and take. It can't be all take or it won't work."

"I won't pretend it's not a serious financial issue for the SRU but there is still a lot of talking to do."

And there was one I can not find now about having to possibly accept no guaranteed places (He shoudl insist on at least 1 imo).


All of this suggests to me that SRU are not willing to be shafted by their southern neighbours but know that they may have to be pragmatic and get the very best deal they can to ensure survival.

correct he (SRU CEO dodson) did indeed say no guaranteed places would potentially be acceptable.

VietGwentRevisited

Yup _ Dodson has consistently taken a line of "compromise is possible, being rodgered sideways is not" However it has been clear that he woulld not accept what is offered so far - only a significant movement from the PRL would be acceptable./ Not wedded to the ERC for sure nor a "no surrender" position

Cyril wrote:

stub wrote:

Cyril wrote:I like this

The article tells us very little but it's got people gnashing their teeth again.

Good old Beeb!

Don't you think this is a significant development then Cyril?

I can see that it doesn't give us a huge clue as to the eventual outcome but even so...

It is significant, but not necessarily surprising. I just think that 'negotiations' have gone a lot further than we previously thought.

I also think people should stop thinking of it as an Anglo-French Cup (yes, it's the Beeb headline) but more of a new tournament instigated by the actions of these nations. As soon as people think of a new tournament as joint-ownership the better. I reckon this has already happened and the powers-that-be are probably a lot more reconciled to something concrete than we imagine. If that makes sense!

Yes. it does.

It might have started as a French/English move but, if it comes to fruition, it should end up as everyone's cup. Like a renegotiated HC.

only one thing is certain. its au revoir JP Lux and the ERC. and good flippin riddance. without that cronyist tool giving people false promises based on false assumptions maybe we could have got to wherever we are going to end up, about a year ago.

although 606v2 would have been a lot quieter...so maybe its not all negative.

And I suspect he woudl be amenable to the sort of tournament I outlined earlier. Where Unions own the tournament and the participation rights - but clubs can strike the commercial deals - so long as SRU get a fair share of the financial pot.

Certainly I believe SRU are the ones that need to be convinced and woudl be most amenable to convincing.

I just have this horrible feeling that RL is too dogmatic.

I think everyone accepted the ERC is dead a while back. The critical things are number of entrants (and I can only think the welsh have been promised more than we have so far cos I don't believe they would accept this knowing they only will get one club in) and division of money and governance. Nothing much really :-)

VietGwentRevisited wrote:And I suspect he woudl be amenable to the sort of tournament I outlined earlier. Where Unions own the tournament and the participation rights - but clubs can strike the commercial deals - so long as SRU get a fair share of the financial pot.

Certainly I believe SRU are the ones that need to be convinced and woudl be most amenable to convincing.

I just have this horrible feeling that RL is too dogmatic.

Participation is critical as well.

What I find interesting is the quietness of the Irish on this. I would say the italians too but not really any vocal italians on here to which we can gauge their point of view.

The IRU & the provinces appear to have maintained a unified approach so I expect them to jointly state their position soon.

Roger Lewis seems to have painted himself into a corner by publically spanking the regions and threatening reprisals if they don't fall in line. As mentioned previously there has been tension between the WRU and RRW for a couple of years. Could this be a prelude to civil war?

I think massive credit has to be given to the RFU in this saga. Whilst many people on here demanded the RFU to get off the fence, instead they have not took sides and quietly played the mediator role. The end of this mess is in sight.

quinsforever wrote:only one thing is certain. its au revoir JP Lux and the ERC. and good flippin riddance. without that cronyist tool giving people false promises based on false assumptions maybe we could have got to wherever we are going to end up, about a year ago.

although 606v2 would have been a lot quieter...so maybe its not all negative.

Nature abhors a vacuum. If anything this new Euro Cup discussion has taken the edge off the post-Lions fall-out. Small mercies.

I agree the RFU appear to have done well and to be reasonably honest brokers. Howevcer the deveil is in the detail. I do wonder what has been offered to the welsh clubs and hope its not more divide ad conquer

TJ wrote:

VietGwentRevisited wrote:And I suspect he woudl be amenable to the sort of tournament I outlined earlier. Where Unions own the tournament and the participation rights - but clubs can strike the commercial deals - so long as SRU get a fair share of the financial pot.

Certainly I believe SRU are the ones that need to be convinced and woudl be most amenable to convincing.

I just have this horrible feeling that RL is too dogmatic.

Participation is critical as well.

they would have to approve the participation criteria - but certainly based on everything he has said in the last month I get the feeling that Dodson believes if both Glasgow and Embra finished towards the foot of the Pro12 then they were undeserving of a place in the top Tier. Personally if it is to be a pan-european competition I believe all countries should be guaranteed 1 spot for their best team.

TJ wrote:I agree the RFU appear to have done well and to be reasonably honest brokers.  Howevcer the deveil is in the detail.  I do wonder what has been offered to the welsh clubs and hope its not more divide ad conquer

I suspect that discussions have been had with Regional and Provincial representatives for quite some time - even though our friends over the Irish sea have pooh-poohed this idea. the timing of the statement from RRW is probably based a lot more on the negotiations with WRU and Lewis than any offers made in an attempt to divide and conquer. I hope so any way as I want to see a solution found.

VietGwentRevisited wrote:And I suspect he woudl be amenable to the sort of tournament I outlined earlier. Where Unions own the tournament and the participation rights - but clubs can strike the commercial deals - so long as SRU get a fair share of the financial pot.

Certainly I believe SRU are the ones that need to be convinced and woudl be most amenable to convincing.

I just have this horrible feeling that RL is too dogmatic.

Sorry VGR, but RRW HAVE to have the money from these negotiations, in order to be able to compete on a level playing field even with the Scottish Regions.

VietGwentRevisited

My fear is the welsh clubs have been offered so much that there is only crumbs left for the others.

Notch wrote:I would expect similar statements from Ireland, Scotland and Italy in the coming weeks.

The war is over, but we won't know who the winners and losers are until the smoke clears and some details about the new competition become public.

We're all winners... there will be a European competition next year  

Metal Tiger wrote:What I find interesting is the quietness of the Irish on this. I would say the italians too but not really any vocal italians on here to which we can gauge their point of view.

The IRU & the provinces appear to have maintained a unified approach so I expect them to jointly state their position soon.

Roger Lewis seems to have painted himself into a corner by publically spanking the regions and threatening reprisals if they don't fall in line. As mentioned previously there has been tension between the WRU and RRW for a couple of years. Could this be a prelude to civil war?

I think massive credit has to be given to the RFU in this saga. Whilst many people on here demanded the RFU to get off the fence, instead they have not took sides and quietly played the mediator role. The end of this mess is in sight.

The IRFU and the Provinces are one and the same. All the provincial players, coaches & staff are employees of the IRFU. The provincial CEOs report to the IRFU's CEO, Philip Browne.

Why do people have difficulty in understanding this?

Cyril wrote:

quinsforever wrote:only one thing is certain. its au revoir JP Lux and the ERC. and good flippin riddance. without that cronyist tool giving people false promises based on false assumptions maybe we could have got to wherever we are going to end up, about a year ago.

although 606v2 would have been a lot quieter...so maybe its not all negative.

Nature abhors a vacuum. If anything this new Euro Cup discussion has taken the edge off the post-Lions fall-out. Small mercies.

i wasnt on here then. Was it really acrimonious after the 3rd test?

Sin é wrote:

Metal Tiger wrote:What I find interesting is the quietness of the Irish on this. I would say the italians too but not really any vocal italians on here to which we can gauge their point of view.

The IRU & the provinces appear to have maintained a unified approach so I expect them to jointly state their position soon.

Roger Lewis seems to have painted himself into a corner by publically spanking the regions and threatening reprisals if they don't fall in line. As mentioned previously there has been tension between the WRU and RRW for a couple of years. Could this be a prelude to civil war?

I think massive credit has to be given to the RFU in this saga. Whilst many people on here demanded the RFU to get off the fence, instead they have not took sides and quietly played the mediator role. The end of this mess is in sight.

The IRFU and the Provinces are one and the same. All the provincial players, coaches & staff are employees of the IRFU. The provincial CEOs report to the IRFU's CEO, Philip Browne.

Why do people have difficulty in understanding this?

from an accounting perspective they are one and the same. from every other perspective, not so. fans are different, players different, do fans or players ever transfer between the regions? are you claiming the provinces dont have their own fierce, proud identities?

Sin é wrote:

Metal Tiger wrote:What I find interesting is the quietness of the Irish on this. I would say the italians too but not really any vocal italians on here to which we can gauge their point of view.

The IRU & the provinces appear to have maintained a unified approach so I expect them to jointly state their position soon.

Roger Lewis seems to have painted himself into a corner by publically spanking the regions and threatening reprisals if they don't fall in line. As mentioned previously there has been tension between the WRU and RRW for a couple of years. Could this be a prelude to civil war?

I think massive credit has to be given to the RFU in this saga. Whilst many people on here demanded the RFU to get off the fence, instead they have not took sides and quietly played the mediator role. The end of this mess is in sight.

The IRFU and the Provinces are one and the same. All the provincial players, coaches & staff are employees of the IRFU. The provincial CEOs report to the IRFU's CEO, Philip Browne.

Why do people have difficulty in understanding this?

Does not mean they always agree on the correct course of action. There have been plenty of indications that talks have been made since the Dublin meeting in May with Provincial administrators. The content of this has probably been passed upstairs, but it would be extremely naive to assume that the CEOs of the provinces have not had discussions with their counterparts in england and France.

Griff wrote:Exiled, can you elaborate on the Toulon thing? Sounds interesting!

Toulon have said they do not want to be part of champions cup. However it is nothing to do with European rugby just a reaction to LNR introducing a quota for French players.

I wonder why they have done this at this moment? Do they see themselves as having more money and power through this deal? If this is so then why did they wait so long to say that they would join? Something else has happened to prompt this. Perhaps a clash with the WRU.

As far as changing the dynamics of the conflict I don't see that this will actually make much difference. It may encourage the franglos but the IRB and the unions still have the final say in cross border competitions. It's one more party to help fund the court cases but unless this stance changes how the WRU will act I'm not sure how it will influence proceedings.

There'a a surprise - the splitters are off again !

Intotouch wrote:I wonder why they have done this at this moment? Do they see themselves as having more money and power through this deal? If this is so then why did they wait so long to say that they would join? Something else has happened to prompt this. Perhaps a clash with the WRU.

As far as changing the dynamics of the conflict I don't see that this will actually make much difference. It may encourage the franglos but the IRB and the unions still have the final say in cross border competitions. It's one more party to help fund the court cases but unless this stance changes how the WRU will act I'm not sure how it will influence proceedings.

Timing.

TJ wrote: VietGwentRevisited

My fear is the welsh clubs have been offered so much that there is only crumbs left for the others.

Given that the Franglo position is that each team should get the same that seems unlikely.

quinsforever wrote:

Cyril wrote:

quinsforever wrote:only one thing is certain. its au revoir JP Lux and the ERC. and good flippin riddance. without that cronyist tool giving people false promises based on false assumptions maybe we could have got to wherever we are going to end up, about a year ago.

although 606v2 would have been a lot quieter...so maybe its not all negative.

Nature abhors a vacuum. If anything this new Euro Cup discussion has taken the edge off the post-Lions fall-out. Small mercies.

i wasnt on here then. Was it really acrimonious after the 3rd test?

Aye, it was a little. I shall say no more, but there are plenty of threads in the International archives if you have a strong stomach!

Yes the lap dogs are off with their masters - always happens !

The Welsh regions have always bitten the hand that feeds it so there is no surprise that the snake oil salesmen that run the regions have bent over for the Franglos to undermine the WRU. Their agreement with the WRU runs out at the end of the year. There is nothing to say that these regions in their current form will exist after that. But they are too stupid to realize that.

I would like to see the WRU not renew the participation agreement with them. They can then set up new, proper regions like they should have in the first place. These teams will then get entered in to the Rabo and any new European competition.

The Regions have sold out their Celtic and Italian colleagues as far as I am concerned. I for one feel ashamed. I will never buy another ticket for a Welsh regional game. I was ordering 4 Cardiff Blues shirts for my daughter and nieces but that will not now happen.