JD2 to Clermont next season

First topic message reminder :

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/10442435/Jonathan-Davies-to-join-Clermont-Auvergne-from-Llanelli-Scarlets-as-exodus-of-Wales-players-to-France-continues.html

quinsforever wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:How dies playing in France take you to a higher level? It hasn't worked for Sexton. If anything its had the opposite effect.

what are you basing that on? how many tier1 international matches has he played since joining top14?

he is playing day in day out against far stronger oppostion than he got in the rabo, or when he was being rested for ireland, so once his endurance picks up, he is going to be a stronger player.

he has played 10 games for racing so far this season. how many would he have played by the same time for leinster - 5?

I'm basing it on interviews from Sexton who has already stated he wants to come back to Leinster after his stint with Racing. He is complaining about fatigue which is why he couldn't play against Samoa, so Racing has already robbed him of an Ireland cap.

I've seen him play a couple of times for Racing this season and he doesn't look the same player.

how long is his racing contract? would be unusual for it to be 1 yr only no?

is he surprised that racing want value for money?

he will come out of all this a stronger, tougher, wiser player IMHO, rather than playing "friendly" international matches of little consequence with excessive rest and preparation beforehand.

  How will he be a stronger, wiser player by playing for Racing when he was at one of the best teams in Europe under some of the best coaches in the around.

He was getting more than enough time between Ireland and Leinster. He played over 30 times last year before going on the Lions tour. You English make no sense. One minute your complaining about players being played too much the next minute your are complaining about players being rested.

do you not understand that the quality of opposition in top14 is just a teensy bit better, stronger, quicker than opposition in rabo? in addition to which sexton has averaged 15 club games per annum for leinster. he will prob do that in half a season for racing. did you think after they paid eur750k per annum that he was going to play only half the matches and be allowed to rest nicely for all the irrelevant international friendlies?

i dont think anyone english is complaining about sexton being overplayed in france. or the armitage brothers. or haskell. none of them can play for england under current policies.

Are you even reading what I'm typing?

ok let me put it into terms you might understand. if you do weights in the gym with no weights on the bar, that is commonly referred to as going through the motions. doesnt have any training effect at all.
as you increase the resistance, or load, the training effect becomes proportionately (although not linearly) more powerful.

it is not who you play for, but who you play against that determines the effect of the match on development.

sexton usually played 6 Rabo matches against weak opposition and often second string sides, and 6-10 HC matches each year...

do i need to spell it out?

and wisdom is acquired through experience not learned, so i dont care who the coaches are they are irrelevant in this regard.

quinsforever wrote:ok let me put it into terms you might understand. if you do weights in the gym with no weights on the bar, that is commonly referred to as going through the motions. doesnt have any training effect at all.
as you increase the resistance, or load, the training effect becomes proportionately (although not linearly) more powerful.

it is not who you play for, but who you play against that determines the effect of the match on development.

sexton usually played 6 Rabo matches against weak opposition and often second string sides, and 6-10 HC matches each year...

do i need to spell it out?

Quins, I know you would argue black is white, but do you not see the massive flaw in your argument?  

quinsforever wrote:ok let me put it into terms you might understand. if you do weights in the gym with no weights on the bar, that is commonly referred to as going through the motions. doesnt have any training effect at all.
as you increase the resistance, or load, the training effect becomes proportionately (although not linearly) more powerful......

oh dear god, he's progressed from financial whizz-kid to exercise guru.....

i am on tenterhooks awaiting enlightenment

Casartelli wrote:

quinsforever wrote:ok let me put it into terms you might understand. if you do weights in the gym with no weights on the bar, that is commonly referred to as going through the motions. doesnt have any training effect at all.
as you increase the resistance, or load, the training effect becomes proportionately (although not linearly) more powerful......

oh dear god, he's progressed from financial whizz-kid to exercise guru.....

it's called an analogy  

why are the irish so desperate to play in HC?

because its the only competitive matches the provinces get apart from playing each other.

and then there's the money...and the qualification...but i think we can leave those to the threads where they have been done to death...

quinsforever wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

quinsforever wrote:ok let me put it into terms you might understand. if you do weights in the gym with no weights on the bar, that is commonly referred to as going through the motions. doesnt have any training effect at all.
as you increase the resistance, or load, the training effect becomes proportionately (although not linearly) more powerful......

oh dear god, he's progressed from financial whizz-kid to exercise guru.....

it's called an analogy  

It's an analogy that doesn't work. Lifting weights needs some sort of coaching at any level, and if you have a poor coach you run the risk of damaging yourself.
Sexton comes from one of Europe's top sides. Sexton is one of the worlds best in his position which he backed up in his Lions performance. This he was, and is, before he moved to France. This Leinster is while competing in the Rabo.
Experience can be very positive in terms of development, but it can also be counter productive.

quinsforever wrote:why are the irish so desperate to play in HC?

because its the only competitive matches the provinces get apart from playing each other.

and then there's the money...and the qualification...but i think we can leave those to the threads where they have been done to death...

Good grief..... Quins, the same can be said of the AP, and the T14. All teams, and all players, should be desperate to play in the top competition, and a competition that is a proven success.

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

quinsforever wrote:ok let me put it into terms you might understand. if you do weights in the gym with no weights on the bar, that is commonly referred to as going through the motions. doesnt have any training effect at all.
as you increase the resistance, or load, the training effect becomes proportionately (although not linearly) more powerful......

oh dear god, he's progressed from financial whizz-kid to exercise guru.....

it's called an analogy  

It's an analogy that doesn't work. Lifting weights needs some sort of coaching at any level, and if you have a poor coach you run the risk of damaging yourself.
Sexton comes from one of Europe's top sides. Sexton is one of the worlds best in his position which he backed up in his Lions performance. This he was, and is, before he moved to France. This Leinster is while competing in the Rabo.
Experience can be very positive in terms of development, but it can also be counter productive.

20-25 matches in top14, 5 ireland matches in the 6N (no "friendlies"), and 5-10 HC matches. he's going to be hard as nails by the end of the year. and given Racing's group in HC, there is not one soft match for Sexton all season.

you seem to think that because he's a great player, he can't get better? or that Leinster are responsible for him getting to where he has gotten in terms of level, talent and achievement? what if he is a truly great talent who until now has been held back? by the middle of next season we will know.

i just can't stand the hypocritical whining about the french clubs being evil, yet somehow the players who accept to go there are saintly? i am trying to describe why i think irish fans in the case of sexton and welsh wrt davies, should not be fearful. but the old union fallback fallacy or wanting domestic control keeps being trotted out.

if it's worked so well for ireland how come the national team is so consistently poor, and how come wales cant beat a SH side for love or money? it's time for some change and to take a risk.

Yeah, I think putting all of our international players into a barbarians league will allow us to win the next few rugby world cups. We'd play Ireland in every final if they adopt the same approach.

The Saint wrote:Yeah, I think putting all of our international players into a barbarians league will allow us to win the next few rugby world cups. We'd play Ireland in every final if they adopt the same approach.

given historic RWC performances, surely something needs to be changed or tried, no? or do you think both national teams are all they can be at RWCs?

Why don't England try something different so they can win a cup? Just the one in 10 years is a poor return for a rugby nation of England's calibre. Maybe France should also make wholesale changes that will help prevent them from finishing fifth or sixth in the 6 Nations.

He's hard as he needs to be, Quins. Playing top level rugby, and playing on the winning side, for years has proven that. That's against the best that AP, or T14, had to offer.

You seem to think the T14 teams are all that  They're not, and neither are all the AP teams...

Leinster are absolutely responsible for Sexton playing at the level he is now. How could they not be. Top European team with a top coaching ticket. I take your point though. He is a gifted player who had his raw talent honed by great coaching throughout his career.

Who said the French clubs are evil? From an Irish perspective we have only lost Sexton to them, but it's the players who ultimately make the choice to move.

If what's worked so well for Ireland? The Rabo has been great. Irish success in the HEC proves that. The national side? Coaching ticket failing to move with the times? We will just have to wait and see what Schmidt does....

yawn. even when england and france are pants they have both still made RWC finals.

there is nothing that compares with RWC victory for sweetness, nor losing in the final for disappointment.

once you have tasted either, the 6Nations isnt going to have quite the same aura about it...

quinsforever wrote:yawn. even when england and france are pants they have both still made RWC finals.

there is nothing that compares with RWC victory for sweetness, nor losing in the final for disappointment.

once you have tasted either, the 6Nations isnt going to have quite the same aura about it...

  1966!!

quinsforever wrote:yawn. even when england and france are pants........

Sorry, this 'yoof' vernacular is sometimes rather confusing. 'Pants' is now a term to describe rather below par?

I've always found my pants to be rather useful and comfortable items.

hardly yoof

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pants

you would probably also describe those self same pants you are so fond of, as something you would be slightly ashamed of to see displayed in public...hence presumably the origin of the yoof term?

Munchkin wrote:He's hard as he needs to be, Quins. Playing top level rugby, and playing on the winning side, for years has proven that. That's against the best that AP, or T14, had to offer.

You seem to think the T14 teams are all that  They're not, and neither are all the AP teams...

+1

Don't understand how one can assume playing 20-25 Top 14 games automatically means playing against a higher quality of opposition. Especially when it throws up the possibility of missing test matches against southern hemisphere opposition. The leagues are pretty similarly divided into tiers of quality in my opinion. Every league has weaker teams. Sexton played against Stade Francais last year and the quality thrown at him wouldn't have had any of the lower finishing rabo teams quaking in their boots.

Quins, If England and France made RWC finals then I don't think they were as poor as you claim, though France avoiding the SH in 2011 likely helped them reach that particular final.

I don't see why you would yawn at my comments, as all I did was highlight the gaps in your idea. To me its clear that to be a very good and consistent international team you need top quality clubs playing in a competitve environment. England and France were among the first to have that and still have some of the best clubs. Clearly Wales and Ireland think that they can continue to improve their domestic game by having all of their best players stay at their clubs. And the reason the SH is the best is because of their club structure. The small clubs feed provinces, which feed franchises, which feed international teams. Everything is focused on development. Best clubs and club structure = best international teams.

Engine#4 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:He's hard as he needs to be, Quins. Playing top level rugby, and playing on the winning side, for years has proven that. That's against the best that AP, or T14, had to offer.

You seem to think the T14 teams are all that  They're not, and neither are all the AP teams...

+1

Don't understand how one can assume playing 20-25 Top 14 games automatically means playing against a higher quality of opposition.  Especially when it throws up the possibility of missing test matches against southern hemisphere opposition. The leagues are pretty similarly divided into tiers of quality in my opinion.  Every league has weaker teams. Sexton played against Stade Francais last year and the quality thrown at him wouldn't have had any of the lower finishing rabo teams quaking in their boots.

top14 only has 1 weaker team, Biarritz, and even they have 12 points thus far. teams 1 through 13 have between 32 and 21 points. top5 are separated by 1 point, top 10 by 5 points. and sexton has played 10 of 11 matches.

The Saint wrote:Quins, If England and France made RWC finals then I don't think they were as poor as you claim, though France avoiding the SH in 2011 likely helped them reach that particular final.

I don't see why you would yawn at my comments, as all I did was highlight the gaps in your idea. To me its clear that to be a very good and consistent international team you need top quality clubs playing in a competitve environment. England and France were among the first to have that and still have some of the best clubs. Clearly Wales and Ireland think that they can continue to improve their domestic game by having all of their best players stay at their clubs. And the reason the SH is the best is because of their club structure. The small clubs feed provinces, which feed franchises, which feed international teams. Everything is focused on development. Best clubs and club structure = best international teams.

i yawn because its the same old "no matter how well you may have done you should be doing better given population, rugby participation and money" argument." england, france, nz, aus have all been in 3 RWC finals, and SA 2. how much of a better return should we be hoping for?

there are lots of things that go into SH success, not the least of which in the modern era is that they all play against each other in full test matches, rather than the drab affair that is sometimes the 6N.

SA + NZ are great because they have a great rugby culture (brutal) and great participation at grass roots. Aus have punched way above their weight by picking off NRL converts and paying over the odds ($10,000 per Aus match win or lose) to retain stars, and being cutting edge in using science in sport.

Eng and Fr are not as consistently great as NZ/SA yet, but i bet you, as the union and pro leagues sort out their differences, that they will head in that direction.

The top 14 is equalised by the pandemic of not bothering to show up away from home, that is why points are closer. Toulon have only won once away this year and it was against Biarritz. It is  the same 3-4 teams that can take on and beat the Leinsters and Sarries of the Rabo and Aviva leagues, the rest are mediocre to woeful.

If Sexton's having a harder time of it then it's because he's playing in an inferior team, not because the Rabo is weaker.

Also, at the risk of getting back on topic is Rougerie retiring??

Good point there As. A season to learn from the local hero before stepping into his shirt, good succession planning there by Clermont.

I guess he's not coming to Quins then... well he'll kick himself when we have all those HC medals to show off and he has diddly!!  

There is more squad rotation in the top 14 than there is in the Pro12.

In addition they, by contrast, flog a few key players like Sexton.

quinsforever wrote:

The Saint wrote:Quins, If England and France made RWC finals then I don't think they were as poor as you claim, though France avoiding the SH in 2011 likely helped them reach that particular final.

I don't see why you would yawn at my comments, as all I did was highlight the gaps in your idea. To me its clear that to be a very good and consistent international team you need top quality clubs playing in a competitve environment. England and France were among the first to have that and still have some of the best clubs. Clearly Wales and Ireland think that they can continue to improve their domestic game by having all of their best players stay at their clubs. And the reason the SH is the best is because of their club structure. The small clubs feed provinces, which feed franchises, which feed international teams. Everything is focused on development. Best clubs and club structure = best international teams.

i yawn because its the same old "no matter how well you may have done you should be doing better given population, rugby participation and money" argument." england, france, nz, aus have all been in 3 RWC finals, and SA 2. how much of a better return should we be hoping for?

there are lots of things that go into SH success, not the least of which in the modern era is that they all play against each other in full test matches, rather than the drab affair that is sometimes the 6N.

SA + NZ are great because they have a great rugby culture (brutal) and great participation at grass roots. Aus have punched way above their weight by picking off NRL converts and paying over the odds ($10,000 per Aus match win or lose) to retain stars, and being cutting edge in using science in sport.

Eng and Fr are not as consistently great as NZ/SA yet, but i bet you, as the union and pro leagues sort out their differences, that they will head in that direction.

England and France have the population
New Zealand and South Africa are countries where Rugby Union is the premier team game either in the country as a whole (NZ) or for a significant and distinct segment of that population (SA)
For Ireland by contrast there is not the population hinterland and the game is competing against three other major team games - soccer, Gaelic football and Hurling
That's makes the pool of available player incredible small compared to all the countries you mentioned even Australia who do punch above their weight but they still have a bigger population and also benefit in cross overs from one of their other major team sports - Rugby League - in a way Ireland do not

None of these countries are comparable and this is why it is far harder for Ireland to reach the same heights.
Given the disadvantages the national has done well since professionalism came in and the Provinces brilliantly

quinsforever wrote:ok let me put it into terms you might understand. if you do weights in the gym with no weights on the bar, that is commonly referred to as going through the motions. doesnt have any training effect at all.
as you increase the resistance, or load, the training effect becomes proportionately (although not linearly) more powerful.

it is not who you play for, but who you play against that determines the effect of the match on development.

sexton usually played 6 Rabo matches against weak opposition and often second string sides, and 6-10 HC matches each year...

do i need to spell it out?

Actually doing a 50rep blast curls with just the Olympic bar at the end of bicep training is far more "demanding" than going through the motions.

Bloody hell,an article that talks about a captain of a Welsh region leaving to France has references in the readers comments to England winning a world cup a decade ago?????
FFS drop it ,it was not and is not a pivotal point in time where all things that happen afterwards must be compared to!
And you English lads wonder why we give you a hard time.

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:

quinsforever wrote:ok let me put it into terms you might understand. if you do weights in the gym with no weights on the bar, that is commonly referred to as going through the motions. doesnt have any training effect at all.
as you increase the resistance, or load, the training effect becomes proportionately (although not linearly) more powerful.

it is not who you play for, but who you play against that determines the effect of the match on development.

sexton usually played 6 Rabo matches against weak opposition and often second string sides, and 6-10 HC matches each year...

do i need to spell it out?

Actually doing a 50rep blast curls with just the Olympic bar at the end of bicep training is far more "demanding" than going through the motions.

like i said, do the match first, then the warmdown after

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Bloody hell,an article that talks about a captain of a Welsh region leaving to France has references in the readers comments to England winning a world cup a decade ago?????
FFS drop it ,it was not and is not a pivotal point in time where all things that happen afterwards must be compared to!
And you English lads wonder why we give you a hard time.

twas a welshie who mentioned the world cup win my denuded of an argument friend

quinsforever wrote:

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:

quinsforever wrote:ok let me put it into terms you might understand. if you do weights in the gym with no weights on the bar, that is commonly referred to as going through the motions. doesnt have any training effect at all.
as you increase the resistance, or load, the training effect becomes proportionately (although not linearly) more powerful.

it is not who you play for, but who you play against that determines the effect of the match on development.

sexton usually played 6 Rabo matches against weak opposition and often second string sides, and 6-10 HC matches each year...

do i need to spell it out?

Actually doing a 50rep blast curls with just the Olympic bar at the end of bicep training is far more "demanding" than going through the motions.

like i said, do the match first, then the warmdown after

Warm down is for girls and the genetically inferior who can't cope with the pain that follows 48hrs after  

LOL

So the Welsh have been successful these past few years when most of their players have been playing in Wales. Credit the Rabo maybe?

quinsforever wrote:

Engine#4 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:He's hard as he needs to be, Quins. Playing top level rugby, and playing on the winning side, for years has proven that. That's against the best that AP, or T14, had to offer.

You seem to think the T14 teams are all that  They're not, and neither are all the AP teams...

+1

Don't understand how one can assume playing 20-25 Top 14 games automatically means playing against a higher quality of opposition.  Especially when it throws up the possibility of missing test matches against southern hemisphere opposition. The leagues are pretty similarly divided into tiers of quality in my opinion.  Every league has weaker teams. Sexton played against Stade Francais last year and the quality thrown at him wouldn't have had any of the lower finishing rabo teams quaking in their boots.

top14 only has 1 weaker team, Biarritz, and even they have 12 points thus far. teams 1 through 13 have between 32 and 21 points.  top5 are separated by 1 point, top 10 by 5 points. and sexton has played 10 of 11 matches.

Dispute that watched a fair bit of all three leagues this year and ther worst games have been in the Top 14 - some real turkeys
The best in the Pro12 are at least as good as the best in the other two leagues and the worst in the other two leagues are as poor as the worst in the Pro12.
What we have in the top 3/4 French teams creaming off certain players in an attempt to change that and put themselves at a higher level.
We are just starting to see the effects of that and it is not good news for the health of European or indeed French rugby.

To bring it back to JD2 the question remains why has the country with the closest set up to them )Ireland) retained players when they have not???

Ian Evans and Bradley Davies are both moving to France apparently,

(Ian Evans to Toulon http://www.espn.co.uk/france-top-14-2013-14/rugby/story/205837.html)

Geoff don't forget you had tax breaks if players stayed in Ireland (not sure if that's the case now).

Most Irish players have had done well in the HC - they haven't had the need to move abroad for silverware.

The better players from Connacht have migrated to the other Irish clubs.

Structurally the Irish clubs are in better shape than the Welsh ones.

I know you Irish like to bang on about how much competition there is from other sports but from my trips to Connacht,Munster and Leinster I haven't seen that. Rugby union seems to rule the roost in those areas.

Irish soccer is insignificant. I know one of you Irish supporters said that 20,000 Irish flock to every ManU game (something I find hard to believe) but if you are in Galway for example, there's hardly that option!

In regards to Welsh players, I don't believe this notion that Welsh rugby is poor. The WRU do well financially.

http://www1.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12507/8940356/

Casartelli wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Be interesting how JD2 fairs trying to displace either Fofana one of the classiest 12s going or Mr Clement Rougerie who is a real beast of an OC and club captain...............

JD2's credentials when it comes to pushing outside-centres out of starting XVs are pretty much unparalleled.

Pretty sure the abroad team could thrash the home team now

1. Paul James
2.
3. Craig Mitchell
4. Bradley Davies/Ian Evans
5. Luke Charteris
6. Dan Lydiate
7.
8. Gareth Delve
9. Mike Phillips
10. James Hook
11. George North
12. Jamie Roberts
13. Jonathan Davies
14.
15. Lee Byrne

See below

beshocked wrote:Geoff don't forget you had tax breaks if players stayed in Ireland (not sure if that's the case now). Not true in Northen Ireland and Ulster have not lost a single player to France, they wanted to keep

Most Irish players have had done well in the HC - they haven't had the need to move abroad for silverware. fair point

The better players from Connacht have migrated to the other Irish clubs.True but crucially they have not left Ireland

Structurally the Irish clubs are in better shape than the Welsh ones.True but in part that is poor planning by the Welsh when setting up the regions

I know you Irish like to bang on about how much competition there is from other sports but from my trips to Connacht,Munster and Leinster I haven't seen that. Rugby union seems to rule the roost in those areas.You go to watch a Rugby match, and therrefore get a distorted view, as a sport is it dwarfed by other sports just look at the participation numbers

Irish soccer is insignificant. I know one of you Irish supporters said that 20,000 Irish flock to every ManU game (something I find hard to believe) but if you are in Galway for example, there's hardly that option!Soccer is poor locally but the interest of young kids put it up there way above Rugby

In regards to Welsh players, I don't believe this notion that Welsh rugby is poor. The WRU do well financially.Agreed but just goes to to the heart of the matter imv. Irish rugby is well run whilst Welsh rugby is badly run

http://www1.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12507/8940356/

Also by the Irish sticking to their guns of saying players must play in Ireland if they wanted to play for Ireland has made players think twice - Sexton is only preceeded by Bowe, Murphy and Easterby

geoff participation numbers is a bit of a red herring in my opinion.

You talk about soccer being interesting to young kids yet this doesn't reflect in attendances.
Plus the Irish soccer side are weak when you compare relatively to the Irish rugby union side.

The competitiveness of sports in Ireland is nothing like that in England or Wales. I know you like to think it is but it really isn't.

Wales have Swansea and Cardiff football sides which are massive competitors of rugby union in Wales. Particularly as they compete with two of Wales' main clubs - Ospreys and Cardiff Blues.

England have numerous big and small clubs in football throughout the country. Rugby league is a big competitor in the North. The Super League is more popular than the Pro12! Division 1 football is on par with the Pro12 too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attendance_figures_at_domestic_professional_sports_leagues

In France, football is nowhere near as big as it is in England.

I agree - Welsh players should have to stay in Wales if they want to play for Wales.

While this has deviated away from JD2 a bit to the usual league comparison,

I don't think the regions are doing as well as they should be. On Euro table, there is currently only one Welsh team in the top 20 teams in Europe, Ospreys at 20th!

http://www.eurorugby.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Rugger&file=latest

The best Welsh players leaving isn't going to help this, and a decline for the regions is not good for the Welsh, the league or European rugby.

I've said before that the WRU really need to put more into the regions, and I believe this money will have to come at the decrement of the Welsh Prem.

The WRU cannot afford to have regions competing with the best in Europe and a very good domestic league. I think the time has now come for them to decide on one or the other. I do see the Welsh prem clubs not being happy with this, but tough times means tough decisions have to be made.

In France, football is still the number one sport. the difference is that you have other team sports such as basketball and handball (and even volleyball) that are followed seriously unlike in England. so there is a bit more dillution.

on another Welsh exodus news, I see that Ian Evans is "approached" by Toulon

Beshocked with due respect it appears to me you not understand the passion, participation and general interest in the Gaelic sports.

As to soccer - just go to the ferry ports and the airports any weekend to see the level
of attrendance at soccer matches.

Go to the pubs, clubs and offices of Ireland - soccer (English and Scottish soccer) and Gaelic football dominate conversation.

Look at the schools and see which sports are played the most - its not rugby

Kingshu the WRU already decided to back the international side but haven't realised that because they haven't given sufficient support to the regions, the players are going to leave for more money. Plus there hasn't been sufficient protection put in place.

The Irish have a good structure, the English also have a decent structure (could be better of course but it's working).

Wales need to find that the happy balance between club and country. They need strong regions for there to be a strong national side.

France's desire for more foreigners is going to continue to hurt their international side. Toulon's situation is farcical for example.

Wasn't it 2 French man in the first XV that beat Clermont in the HC final?

there were 3 of them Beshocked and 4 on the bench , not that it changes anything...

Geoff

No you are right. I probably don't understand the passion because I didn't see it.

Whocares yes of course football is still the no 1 sport in France by some distance but rugby union keeps growing. Compare football in France to football in England - football in England is far bigger. Just look at the English football championship.

whocares I apologise. It's still a woeful amount. Even my much maligned side have far more English players in their 23 than perceived.

I know it sounds like I am bashing France but someone needs to stop Top 14 having too many foreigners because it only damages world rugby. Could argue that the AP should do the same too.

JD2 is going to France because of the far larger salary cap the French have. In the end even the English clubs won't be able to compete with the French juggernauts financially.

Most French clubs have double the salary cap of English clubs let alone the likes of the Welsh regions and the Scottish.

The French have far more emphasis on club rugby than any other nation in my opinion.