Another Scheduling Screw-Up

The Aviva final is scheduled for the 31st May. England's first test against the All Blacks in New Zealand is June 7th, just a week later.

The Telegraph reports that none of the players featuring in the Aviva final will be considered for the first Test.

Why do international sides get themselves in these pickles? Australia did the same thing at home last year when they played Scotland while missing some of their Super Rugby regulars.

Does no-one look at a calendar before they sign the contracts?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/10445978/England-may-have-to-field-second-string-against-New-Zealand-in-June-due-to-clash-with-Aviva-Premiership-final.html

its England last rugby game this weekend and Wales only second so why didnt we start same time as you when now we play Australia outside the window and by doing so effects our clubs too

PRL should be able to dictate when Internationals take place.

I'd guess International dates are set and sealed in stone long before Leagues get around to doing their dates.

I reckon that's the problem, Fly. The dates are sealed in stone, so everyone else has to guess that they are.

The teams playing the final will be full of foreign imports anyway so I think this might only affect one second string England player.

I don't really mean that but seeing as GE is being a good boy the world seems out of balance. France had the same problem this June with their Top 14 players. Unfortunate but the positive you get to blood some fringe players.

greedy unions  

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I reckon that's the problem, Fly. The dates are sealed in stone, so everyone else has to guess that they are.

Well if people were.....talking to each other.... they might be able to ring up people and ask........................ If.........they were talking to each other, that is
But then asking something of somebody in the present climate might be seen as a sign of 'slavery', weakness and submissiveness. And ain't nobody got time for that!

quinsforever wrote:greedy unions  

If'n yer goin' to be complaining about Unions and things, then use the Club section.  This section is run by the   ERC, quins

I think it is a case of the head not knowing what the backside does.

Who owns the Head? That's the question Biltong. Because it's a damn cert nobody wants the backside........

good question.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:The teams playing the final will be full of foreign imports anyway so I think this might only affect one second string England player.

I don't really mean that but seeing as GE is being a good boy the world seems out of balance. France had the same problem this June with their Top 14 players. Unfortunate but the positive you get to blood some fringe players.

naughty

I think we should blame NZ for setting up the dates too early

As for France, since Toulon was in the T14 final they only ended up missing 4 players at a stretch.

This is the reason I have been so against the PRL and LNR gaining the power struggle.

As it stands next season there is no HC? No other confirmed tourny? and now the PRL have decide to infringe on the international side by scheduling the final 7 days before England play NZ!!

It's only a matter of time before the PRL decide to declare all out war on international rugby as it's the biggest threat to the Aviva's world dominance!

quinsforever wrote:greedy unions  

   

Greedy robbing bar stewards

Times article on this spectacular f-up.

completely unclear who is responsible. which means it can only be one of the shadowy greedy/controlling/anonymous union blazers somewhere.

"Loose Talk: Mark Souster says someone, somewhere has made a shocking decision on next summer’s timings
Occasionally in this job you come across a story which defies logic. I did so this week. It is the revelation in The Times that England will face New Zealand in the first international of next summer’s three-match June tour with a weakened team.
That match is on June 7, seven days after the Aviva Premiership final. Those involved will not be able to get to New Zealand in time to be considered. The bulk of the squad will leave England on May 27.
Let me make clear that there is no blame to attached to PRL. The date has been in the diary for years. But quite who can be held responsible for such a barmy situation, in which everyone loses out, is less clear.
Stuart Lancaster is not happy, understandably. It is hard enough playing the All Blacks in their own country without one arm tied behind your back.
New Zealand cannot be happy because it renders the series virtually meaningless. The commercial ramifications for them could be huge. Nor will broadcasters and sponsors welcome the decision.
The IRB, to whom the RFU have made overtures, have expressed sympathy but suggest it is too late to arrive at the common-sense solution, which would be to move the series back a week.
That solution, though, would fit in with the summer window agreed when the new tours schedule was put in place in 2010. That came into force last year with England in South Africa, Wales in Australia and Ireland in New Zealand.
The new tours schedule established two key principles: the first was that a three-match series would take place against a leading incoming northern hemisphere country.
For years the SANZAR union had raged against the weakened outfits that had been sent south in June at the end of the long European season. Remember 1998 and the Tour of Hell? The agreement satisfied the commercial issues that concerned SANZAR, which was basically having an attractive and meaningful series to sell.
The second key principle was to enshrine the summer international window as the second, third and fourth weekends in June. This guaranteed that European nations would have sufficient preparation time after the end of the domestic season to bring a full squad and be competitive, injuries notwithstanding.
The trade-off was that SANZAR countries would not lay claim to a slice of the revenues from their autumn tours to Europe. England’s game this Saturday at Twickenham, for instance, is set to generate £10 million.
All well and good, it seemed. But no. Someone, somewhere has decreed that the first weekend on June next year is that of May 31 and June 1.
That is ridiculous.
Each of the domestic finals in the Premiership, the Top 14 and the RaboDirect Pro12 takes place on May 31. Cue chaos.
Terry Burwell, the RFU’s former Tournaments and Competitions director, sat on the five-strong tours working party established after a conference in Woking in 2008.
He said: “That was called specifically to look at commerciality and challenges of the fixture. SANZAR wanted the three-test series against major commercial unions of the northern hemisphere.
“They also wanted to be certain that the Northern hemisphere sides were competitive, which was why the critical window was fixed on the second, third and fourth weekends. This also took into account the minimum 10 weeks’ player rest period at the end of a season.”
The report which he helped to produce also allowed northern hemisphere teams to “sell” a fourth autumn game which fell outside the official window. England paid the All Blacks something like £1.5 million for the international played last December and Wales are paying Australia £750,000 for an extra game on November 30.
The structured domestic season agreed between the RFU and PRL came on the back of that agreement. Burwell has a copy and it shows England playing New Zealand on June 14, 21 and 28 next year. He is baffled.
“There must be a political agenda somewhere,” Burwell said. ”Everything now emerging is at complete odds with the core principals of Woking. It is in no one’s interests, there is no beneficiary as things stands. It is totally illogical.
“I find it ludicrous that in the third year of that cycle we are already falling over it. It has got to be down to the IRB to show strong governance and put steps in place to make sure common sense prevails.”
Dublin, over to you."

As I understand it the RFU have already asked the NZRU to shift the series back a week. This was turned down by the NZRU.

Not making any comments/assumptions on that decision, but the IRB need to step in here for the sake of a potential decent start to the series.

butterfingers wrote:This is the reason I have been so against the PRL and LNR gaining the power struggle.

As it stands next season there is no HC? No other confirmed tourny? and now the PRL have decide to infringe on the international side by scheduling the final 7 days before England play NZ!!

It's only a matter of time before the PRL decide to declare all out war on international rugby as it's the biggest threat to the Aviva's world dominance!

Shame that just like clockwork everything always comes back to Satan (PRL) and their French evil witches.  The reason the season gets longer is there were too many complaints about club matches during the International windows.  The problems for humans and devil worshippers alike is too much damned Rugby.  Too much club Rugby.  Too many Internationals.  Australia are up here for 5.  Wales (demi-Satan from what I read) always plays their extra International outside the approved window.  The regions still play but weakened.  If anyone noticed in the Premiership land, it is now LV= Cup time, the cup which wastes time and hopefully develops some young lads.  

The answer is to reduce the club season, reduce the internationals so everyone is:
1.  healthy to play rugby
2.  healthy to tour

To an extent, we, the paying public who wants more and more Rugby, are part of the problem.  All the rest who blame the PRL, you know its realy a sham, right?  Just a lack of ........................

Problem is the club windows. The International calendar and tours were fixed some time ago. The clubs have simply pushed their season to the limit permitted. In the SH both the ITM and Currie cups finished early enough to allow the teams to assemble and travel. The Scotland tour to Australia was unusual. I think Australia treated it as an Australia A game scheduling it 3 days before the 1st of the Wales games. I can't be sure from memory but suspect it was an add on that provided extra cash for Australia/Scotland, blooding of fringe players for Australia and a valuable hit out for Scotland in their quest for ranking points from the South Pacific games for the world cup draw. You can get away with it at home, because you play the weekend before locally and can have training sessions in the build up. If I was going to feel bad for anyone it would be teams like Samoa, Fiji, Argentina etc. They don't have access to their players pre international, all their players aren't always available, and they face the issue twice a year.

the club calendar were also fixed some time ago. did you read the article i pasted?14,21,28 june were the dates agreed in planning for the eng/nz tour matches "some time ago" as they knew when the club league championships finals were planned for. then someone, un-named, unaccountable, changed this to june 7th for the first match.

pretty clear to me thats nothing to do with the clubs at all. prob some kiwi bod who thought that would given the home side a nice tactical advantage without thinking through the potential commercial ramifications.

i know i wont bother watching.

last one i really cared about was 2003. thats also the last time a full-strength english side was sent over.

unions are just too greedy. they cant help themselves from overscheduling in an attempt to make more money.

I'm not debating you on that scheduling. The fact remains that the international windows are June and November and have been for a lot longer than the dates for various club finals. Combine that with player welfare and scheduling a Northern club final on the last weekend of May or a southern provincial final in the last weekend in October is asking for trouble. The club competitions are well aware of the international windows. Don't forget this is a Times article.

so would you say that the first june weekend (which by common consent everyone agrees to keep free) is may31/june1 or june7/8? pretty clear to me that may31/june1 is not the first weekend in june.

and you know what will happen next...if several key england players are unavailable for the first test and it looks like a badly designed tour, then i bet there will be others with niggling injuries which need resting who will decide to sit the tour out. devaluing it completely for everyone. talk about a hollow victory for NZ.

quinsforever wrote:so would you say that the first june weekend (which by common consent everyone agrees to keep free) is may31/june1 or june7/8? pretty clear to me that may31/june1 is not the first weekend in june.

I'd be pushing fort a club final at least a week earlier than it was. Mind you I'd be looking at the Aviva and Top 14 and looking for a more sustainable model anyway. I think the NFL 's a good model to start with.

Up in the north, this would mean playing more club matches during International windows. The downside is significant. Clubs will be playing more matches without their top players. Some clubs have already figured out it is better to bring in imports from the SH rather than sign home grown talent since the imports will (mostly) not be playing International Rugby. The effect is to de-stabilise the entire NH Rugby club business. And bring through fewer top class Rugby players. This is very bad.
The solutions are:
a standardised Global Rugby season
a max limit on the number of internationals in a season
a limit on the club seasons
a total limit on the number of ,matches in any season
longer off season
Which means less money coming in...............

Hopefully good can come of this where the overlap of club and international rugby is cut out. England are missing a trick one year out from the RWC to find their best team and give them practice against the best. They don't need to find more players. It's time to put combinations together.

doctor_grey wrote:Up in the north, this would mean playing more club matches during International windows.   The downside is significant.  Clubs will be playing more matches without their top players.  Some clubs have already figured out it is better to bring in imports from the SH rather than sign home grown talent since the imports will (mostly) not be playing International Rugby.  The effect is to de-stabilise the entire NH Rugby club business.  And bring through fewer top class Rugby players.  This is very bad.  
The solutions are:
a standardised Global Rugby season
a max limit on the number of internationals in a season
a limit on the club seasons
a total limit on the number of ,matches in any season
longer off season    
Which means less money coming in...............

I agree with your solutions. I doubt whether it invariably means reduced profits for the clubs. My suggestion of an NFL model as opposed to a English football model was based on the issue. The reality rugby has a variety of ways of generating income. It's chosen a football/basketball type model when an NFL model based on a shorter season and less games could work possibly as well or better. I'd suggest the model being used is simply inertia. I.e. it's based on traditions going back 100 years. Less can be more.

The other inherent weakness I see is that rugby as a sport needs a strong leadership based around the international game. The current debate works fine if you think you are going to be one of the few supporters/clubs who benefit from a long club season (i.e. English, French and possibly Welsh). IMO the rugby landscape could change significantly quite quickly. The beneficiaries could be outside of rugby's traditional power bases. Rugby is very much a small time sport.

Anyway. The long and short of it is I agree that the solution is reviewing the international and domestic calendars.

BTW according to the story in todays Times, there is/was a standardised agreement. This was signed and resigned in 2008 and 2010 and saw the IW weekends for this June being 14th, 21st and 28th June. The NH domestic tournaments set their schedule accordingly - AP/Pro12/T14 have their finals on the 31st May.

The decision to move the International fixtures forward a week was taken unilaterally by the Host nations.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:The teams playing the final will be full of foreign imports anyway so I think this might only affect one second string England player.

I don't really mean that but seeing as GE is being a good boy the world seems out of balance. France had the same problem this June with their Top 14 players. Unfortunate but the positive you get to blood some fringe players.

If you were GE on form you'd say that was the England team

I'm just an apprentice. I have much to learn including Grey Ghost is my father.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I'm just an apprentice. I have much to learn including Grey Ghost is my father.

Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering  

VietGwentRevisited wrote:BTW according to the story in todays Times, there is/was a standardised agreement. This was signed and resigned in 2008 and 2010 and saw the IW weekends for this June being 14th, 21st and 28th June. The NH domestic tournaments set their schedule accordingly - AP/Pro12/T14 have their finals on the 31st May.

The decision to move the International fixtures forward a week was taken unilaterally by the Host nations.

This is very interesting. So all three leagues end at the same time? No separate initiative by any League. Wonder why the RFU made this decision. Any explanation?

Apparently Doc, the agreement was for the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th weekends in June to be International weekends.

the inference by the journo Mark Souster is that the SH unions deemed the weekend that starts Saturday 31st May to be the first weekend in June and thus limit disruption to S15. The date of the Premiership Final was set and announced a couple of years before the dates of the NZ/England matches.

This seems to be one of the (rare?) times when PRL are not the bad guys.

VietGwentRevisited wrote:Apparently Doc, the agreement was for the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th weekends in June to be International weekends.

the inference by the journo Mark Souster is that the SH unions deemed the weekend that starts Saturday 31st May to be the first weekend in June and thus limit disruption to S15. The date of the Premiership Final was set and announced a couple of years before the dates of the NZ/England matches.

This seems to be one of the (rare?) times when PRL are not the bad guys.

Really? Surely the AP has been extended only recently to not play matches in IW's?!

Even the PRL managing to hold off playing AP games in IW's and extending the season has indirectly brought this, no union run leage has the same problems, with the exception of the Welsh obviously, they just hate regional rugby from what I can gather!

Doesn't the Pro12 and the Top 14 have their final on the same day as the Premiership? Exonerates the so-called PRL as a guilty party here, no?

doctor_grey wrote:Doesn't the Pro12 and the Top 14 have their final on the same day as the Premiership?  Exonerates the  so-called PRL as a guilty party here, no?

It's not us complaining about the clash with International though, is it?

SecretFly wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Doesn't the Pro12 and the Top 14 have their final on the same day as the Premiership?  Exonerates the  so-called PRL as a guilty party here, no?

It's not us complaining about the clash with International though, is it?

no, its the fans who are complaining.

NZ will get what they deserve here for changing the dates to june 7/8 for the first test. This is clear where the "Host nation" is identified as responsible. and what they deserve is an undervalued, less commercial, unsupported series which doesnt help NZ prepare in any way for the RWC2015.

the flippin unions drive me crazy. there is no accountability. none. they hide behind committees with no consequence to their stupid, greedy, uncommercial decisions.

If i were a top english player, i seriously wouldnt make myself available. who wants to be part of a half-strength side sent down to NZ? better get a proper rest after a seriously long, hard season and get fit again for the world cup. It is no coincidence the number of injuries suffered already by those players who went down under with the lions.

quinsforever wrote:

If i were a top english player, i seriously wouldnt make myself available. who wants to be part of a half-strength side sent down to NZ? better get a proper rest after a seriously long, hard season and get fit again for the world cup. It is no coincidence the number of injuries suffered already by those players who went down under with the lions.

Luckily you're not a player, quins.  Or, to put it another way - go ask the main contenders what they'll want to do.  Let me see, - 'ave a 'oliday coz I am spent, me.................. or ...................... a three test series against the Mighty All Blacks.  A series, that if won..... would make uz right bloomin' 'eros in England for the next 10 years, mate!'

Sorry for the orc lingo but I always like a bit of Orc with me rugby.

Anyway, to conclude - why do some of you constantly assume International players don't want to be International players, that it's a burden to their careers??? "Oh not bloody International again!!!  Who the f**k is it this time!???"

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

If i were a top english player, i seriously wouldnt make myself available. who wants to be part of a half-strength side sent down to NZ? better get a proper rest after a seriously long, hard season and get fit again for the world cup. It is no coincidence the number of injuries suffered already by those players who went down under with the lions.

Luckily you're not a player, quins.  Or, to put it another way - go ask the main contenders what they'll want to do.  Let me see, - 'ave a 'oliday coz I am spent, me.................. or ...................... a three test series against the Mighty All Blacks.  A series, that if won..... would make uz right bloomin' 'eros in England for the next 10 years, mate!'  

Sorry for the orc lingo but I always like a bit of Orc with me rugby.

Anyway, to conclude - why do some of you constantly assume International players don't want to be International players, that it's a burden to their careers???  "Oh not bloody International again!!!  Who the f**k is it this time!???"

players like winning. nobody volunteers to join a sinking ship. which is what will be the first test vs NZ without any AP finalists. and yes, sorry to break it to you SF, but players do think about longevity of career and their earnings...thats why yours and the welsh players are going to france...after all, it's not the national team in the NH (irfu aside) that pays players wages. Additionally, i bet Lancaster will be tempted to rest players from that tour given its inauspicious start. use it as an opportunity to blood some younger players, make it a hollow victory for NZ, rest as many of your key players as you can and protect them from a potential psychologically damaging whipping.

see Eng tour to SA in 2007 for a comparison...conceded 113 point in 2 matches, getting stuffed, leaving many players at home and"not possible for England to made a strong opposition to Springboks" - wiki description of that tour. 6 months later, the full Eng side almost beat SA in the final of RWC...precedents...

Ask the main contenders and get back to me with their comments quins.
No, every player wants to play International...it's why SAs and other nationalities cruise the world looking for 'residencies' in oder to play it - even for someone else.

We've been here before, qiuins.  At least I think it was you involved in the discussion.  Did that lad, Wilkinson, really mean winning a HEC with Toulon was even better than a WC.  I think we all agreed finally that nope - International was the big one....and [/i]that it should be.

Your second post on 'precedents'  Undoubtedly they exist...but the precedent you speak of is design and pre-planning of a highly serious and intent English International set-up.  The important thing was to manage England International...not bow to English clubs.

Anyway, I'll leave the rest of the details on this topic to you and others.  I'm much to busy trying to coach Ireland to a win against Australia on another thread right now!

See you around I'm sure, quins.