Heineken Cup backed by Celtic, French & Italian unions

"The Heineken Cup will go ahead next season despite a planned breakaway tournament, say the Scottish, Welsh, Irish, French and Italian rugby unions."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25045015


What does this now mean for the English plans, or does it now mean another year of bickering and cat chasing from all the Unions?

'The five unions, together with the Rugby Football Union, attempted to meet English and French clubs' demands in October'

This is the key phrase I think, PRL apologists need to remember the RFU have been and are still working with the other unions to keep european rugby in place.

However this meeting the did not include the RFU is a clear statement that the unions will use whatever is in their arsenal to ensure the survival of the governance of any european competition by the unions. Meaning this is a clear warning that unless the PRL start using their noodle the RFU are going to suffer.

It's only a matter of time before the Celts and Italians are backed into a corner and have only one card to play... the 6 Nations!

butterfingers wrote:'The five unions, together with the Rugby Football Union, attempted to meet English and French clubs' demands in October'

This is the key phrase I think, PRL apologists need to remember the RFU have been and are still working with the other unions to keep european rugby in place.

However this meeting the did not include the RFU is a clear statement that the unions will use whatever is in their arsenal to ensure the survival of the governance of any european competition by the unions. Meaning this is a clear warning that unless the PRL start using their noodle the RFU are going to suffer.

It's only a matter of time before the Celts and Italians are backed into a corner and have only one card to play... the 6 Nations!

or the World Cup in England in 2015. Maybe the Rabo unions will not be able to enter teams because of the cost of doing so. I am sure the RFU would not like to preside over a WC with half the top 10 teams missing.

I am sure the IRB would look fondly upon those unions that mess with their cash cow

doctornickolas wrote:

butterfingers wrote:'The five unions, together with the Rugby Football Union, attempted to meet English and French clubs' demands in October'

This is the key phrase I think, PRL apologists need to remember the RFU have been and are still working with the other unions to keep european rugby in place.

However this meeting the did not include the RFU is a clear statement that the unions will use whatever is in their arsenal to ensure the survival of the governance of any european competition by the unions. Meaning this is a clear warning that unless the PRL start using their noodle the RFU are going to suffer.

It's only a matter of time before the Celts and Italians are backed into a corner and have only one card to play... the 6 Nations!

or the World Cup in England in 2015. Maybe the Rabo unions will not be able to enter teams because of the cost of doing so. I am sure the RFU would not like to preside over a WC with half the top 10 teams missing.

Ah its ok...the important ones will be there   

From what certain posters on the International forum would have you believe  it doesn't matter who plays only one side are going to win....

Are we really anywhere new after this announcement?
We all knew that the PRL and RFU are fighting for control top club rugby in England.
We all knew that the LNR and FFR are fighting for control of top club rugby in France.
Having the Unions come together and make this announcement isn't really much progress from where we were a week ago, or even a month ago.

The PRL or/and LNR were looking to try the line of 'financial oblivion' to swing the 'lesser' Unions to their side of the table in a bit to each take more control in their respective countries.

The PRL announced that the welsh regions were on board, but that isn't the same as the WRU.

Now the Unions (save RFU) have said they are united.

The only slight move from the past rhetoric was that the RFU were excluded from this Union meeting.  However we have had a HCup in the past without English involvement so this isn't really anything new.

We still have a disconnect between the FFR saying they will put in clubs to the competition and those clubs being the Top14.

There will still be a disconnect between any RFU negotiations in placing in teams to such a competition (if they choose to come forward with an option) and those clubs being from the PRL affiliation.

'The only slight move from the past rhetoric was that the RFU were excluded from this Union meeting.'

This is key though, does anyone else not find it worrying that through the actions of the PRL the RFU have been excluded from a union meeting?

We are in a very different position whereas the RFU have not been invited to a meeting ALL unions have strengthened their positions in. The Celtic, Italian and French unions are now putting crazy pressure on the RFU.

Up until this week I always felt the PRL bloated and questionable tactics were in a position of power, now I think they are on the verge of isolation, and if they keep pounding away with law suits the RFU is going to suffer.

The RWC is just around the corner, how long will it take for one of the unions to start mentioning boycotting?

All I can say is I'm not really interested until I see something concrete. It looks like the key to it all is to get a few more French clubs signed up.

profitius wrote:All I can say is I'm not really interested until I see something concrete. It looks like the key to it all is to get a few more French clubs signed up.

Your right I think, I worry who is the power in France though, it seems to be leaning the FFR's way.

butterfingers wrote:
'The only slight move from the past rhetoric was that the RFU were excluded from this Union meeting.'

This is key though, does anyone else not find it worrying that through the actions of the PRL the RFU have been excluded from a union meeting?

We are in a very different position whereas the RFU have not been invited to a meeting ALL unions have strengthened their positions in. The Celtic, Italian and French unions are now putting crazy pressure on the RFU.

Up until this week I always felt the PRL bloated and questionable tactics were in a position of power, now I think they are on the verge of isolation, and if they keep pounding away with law suits the RFU is going to suffer.

The RWC is just around the corner, how long will it take for one of the unions to start mentioning boycotting?

comedy, would make me laugh if any of them did threaten boycotting. they would get lynched by their home fans. they have until mid-dec i remember reading to sign up to the rwc2015. if they don't they will get replaced by the next teams on the list and on we go.

quinsforever wrote:

butterfingers wrote:
'The only slight move from the past rhetoric was that the RFU were excluded from this Union meeting.'

This is key though, does anyone else not find it worrying that through the actions of the PRL the RFU have been excluded from a union meeting?

We are in a very different position whereas the RFU have not been invited to a meeting ALL unions have strengthened their positions in. The Celtic, Italian and French unions are now putting crazy pressure on the RFU.

Up until this week I always felt the PRL bloated and questionable tactics were in a position of power, now I think they are on the verge of isolation, and if they keep pounding away with law suits the RFU is going to suffer.

The RWC is just around the corner, how long will it take for one of the unions to start mentioning boycotting?

comedy, would make me laugh if any of them did threaten boycotting. they would get lynched by their home fans. they have until mid-dec i remember reading to sign up to the rwc2015. if they don't they will get replaced by the next teams on the list and on we go.

I agree with you quins.  Plus there is a vast distance between not having the RFU at a table for an agreement to a european club competition and boycotting a global international union run event.  Did the other nations boycott RWCs when england weren't in the european competition before?


The only thing I would infer from RFU not being at the table for that agreement was that the RFU didn't want to make a commitment to provide teams to a european competition that may not include the PRL sides.  So in essence they don't want to rock the boat to the extent that they would put championship teams into europe and leave PRL out in the cold.  PRL also can't go into the new competition as they are committed to providing BT with the coverage rights, when the terms of signing up to the competition itself would also be an agreement that Sky would have the broadcast rights to UK&I for the events.


Out of curiosity, would the PRL almost benefit now if the BT deal was deemed to be invalid as it would allow them to compete in Europe and get a slice of the money (instead of getting 100% of a BT contract during that period which would be 100% of nothing).

quinsforever wrote:

butterfingers wrote:
'The only slight move from the past rhetoric was that the RFU were excluded from this Union meeting.'

This is key though, does anyone else not find it worrying that through the actions of the PRL the RFU have been excluded from a union meeting?

We are in a very different position whereas the RFU have not been invited to a meeting ALL unions have strengthened their positions in. The Celtic, Italian and French unions are now putting crazy pressure on the RFU.

Up until this week I always felt the PRL bloated and questionable tactics were in a position of power, now I think they are on the verge of isolation, and if they keep pounding away with law suits the RFU is going to suffer.

The RWC is just around the corner, how long will it take for one of the unions to start mentioning boycotting?

comedy, would make me laugh if any of them did threaten boycotting. they would get lynched by their home fans. they have until mid-dec i remember reading to sign up to the rwc2015. if they don't they will get replaced by the next teams on the list and on we go.

Pure comedy, IRFU, WRU, SRU, IRU all backed into a corner and have little to gain from a new comp or a devalued HC, have no card to play but face 'financial oblivion', whats to stop them banding together and meeting without the RFU...

Oh crap they just did, if these unions and the FFR all decide this needs to be sorted now, before December they decide not to register for the RWC2015, and play a 5N tourny instead, who is the largest loser?

This RWC will have cost us a fortune to promote games with semi pro sides who have to step in in half of the top ten nations place!

I know this is radical, and not very likely, but we can only push these small nations around so much until they decide enough is enough, the PRL doesn't give a jot about the RFU, and this proves it!

Do you honestly think the IRB would sanction any international games if they tried to ruin the IRB showcase? The event that draws them more attention and finances than anything else? That generates the money they used to grow the game worldwide?

You think they'd be happy to ruin that over a club competition? I see that as highly unlikely myself. More likely they'd block all internationals for these teams, then they really would face financial oblivion.

HammerofThunor wrote:Do you honestly think the IRB would sanction any international games if they tried to ruin the IRB showcase? The event that draws them more attention and finances than anything else? That generates the money they used to grow the game worldwide?

You think they'd be happy to ruin that over a club competition? I see that as highly unlikely myself. More likely they'd block all internationals for these teams, then they really would face financial oblivion.

Or the IRB would see that threat to their bread and butter and decide this problem has come from one place, and seemingly from 1 mouthy little bugger?

This club issue is going to change the whole landscape of pro rugby, if the ramifications are elevated to the international stage directly because of this the IRB have to step in and do something, would that something be pro or anti English rugby do you think?

So you think the IRB would force the English clubs to play with the ERC? How exactly? On what basis?

butterfingers wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Do you honestly think the IRB would sanction any international games if they tried to ruin the IRB showcase? The event that draws them more attention and finances than anything else? That generates the money they used to grow the game worldwide?

You think they'd be happy to ruin that over a club competition? I see that as highly unlikely myself. More likely they'd block all internationals for these teams, then they really would face financial oblivion.

Or the IRB would see that threat to their bread and butter and decide this problem has come from one place, and seemingly from 1 mouthy little bugger?

This club issue is going to change the whole landscape of pro rugby, if the ramifications are elevated to the international stage directly because of this the IRB have to step in and do something, would that something be pro or anti English rugby do you think?

i agree. JP Lux needs to go.

Wrong topic

butterfingers wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

butterfingers wrote:
'The only slight move from the past rhetoric was that the RFU were excluded from this Union meeting.'

This is key though, does anyone else not find it worrying that through the actions of the PRL the RFU have been excluded from a union meeting?

We are in a very different position whereas the RFU have not been invited to a meeting ALL unions have strengthened their positions in. The Celtic, Italian and French unions are now putting crazy pressure on the RFU.

Up until this week I always felt the PRL bloated and questionable tactics were in a position of power, now I think they are on the verge of isolation, and if they keep pounding away with law suits the RFU is going to suffer.

The RWC is just around the corner, how long will it take for one of the unions to start mentioning boycotting?

comedy, would make me laugh if any of them did threaten boycotting. they would get lynched by their home fans. they have until mid-dec i remember reading to sign up to the rwc2015. if they don't they will get replaced by the next teams on the list and on we go.

Pure comedy, IRFU, WRU, SRU, IRU all backed into a corner and have little to gain from a new comp or a devalued HC, have no card to play but face 'financial oblivion', whats to stop them banding together and meeting without the RFU...

Oh crap they just did, if these unions and the FFR all decide this needs to be sorted now, before December they decide not to register for the RWC2015, and play a 5N tourny instead, who is the largest loser?

This RWC will have cost us a fortune to promote games with semi pro sides who have to step in in half of the top ten nations place!

I know this is radical, and not very likely, but we can only push these small nations around so much until they decide enough is enough, the PRL doesn't give a jot about the RFU, and this proves it!

i just dont know what to say or where to start.

celtic and french unions pull out of the IRB's main event and only real fundraiser - thereby endangering all the global developmental money and work done by IRB? the same IRB that these unions are hoping will somehow ride to the rescue of ERC and HC?

unions threaten to pull out of RWC2015 in order to do what - force english clubs into a competition they dont want to be a part of? no-one can do that, not the IRB, Camou, David Cameron or the blooming Queen!

most importantly, given the inability of these unions to figure out this HC mess, do you honestly think they would all be able to toe the line together in actually boycotting WRC2015 with all their competing agendas and challenges?

all these are reasons it will never happen. and if it does, just have them let us know in good time for us to find replacements for the 5 spots created. will make the group of death slightly easier so thats a positive.

No chance of this affect the WC unless the PRL ? RFU get really nasty

to me this statement is simple - the rabo unions went as far as they possibly could to try to keep the PRL onboard but he PRL as was obvious would not compromise at all. To have a real negotiation both sides need to compromise. the Rabo unions did a great deal going further than I thought they should have. the PRL got almost everything they wanted on qualiication dn on finances but refused to move at all on governance

Much as I thought from the beginning - the outcome looks like an isolated PRL and no english teams in the european cup. I hope McCaffery gets his comeupppance for the huge mess he has made of this.

TJ the one thing the PRL could not budge on was the TV deal. The Unions refused to budge on the TV deal. Everything else was irrelevant and meaningless (but put's on a good show for the easily convinced).

Nothing to do with the TV deal - it was all about governance. the PRL refused to compromise an inch on anything and having been given almost everything the wanted they refused to move at all. they have got what they deserved quite honestly. I expect heads to roll and a lot of unhappy fans and chairmen. they now have no BT deal either as they have no product to sell.

No, you're missing the point. The PRL cannot play in a European competition without BT getting their games. The Unions never allowed this. Without that nothing else matters. The Unions could have said 100% of the money, governance, etc went to he PRL but without the BT deal the PRL cannot compete in it.

The 'compromise' was a smokescreen.

'most importantly, given the inability of these unions to figure out this HC mess, do you honestly think they would all be able to toe the line together in actually boycotting WRC2015 with all their competing agendas and challenges?'

I'm sorry are all the unions not agreeing? Which union is not on the same page as the others? When did any of the unions disagree?

You see the unions are solid, and even ore so now the RFU have paid for the PRL's actions, they are more unified than they ever have been, that why English rugby is in trouble now.

I'm not saying that the Celtic, Italian and French unions would pull out of the RWC or 6N, but if the smaller nations have no other hand to play and have been told they face 'financial oblivion' what option do they have but to band together and force their hand?

The unions don't have to force the PRL to do anything, they can however force the RFU to do something.

Hammer,

Your right the BT deal is now engrained on whatever the PRL do, who's fault is that though?

Can we get a new name going now then? First it was Franglos, then Celtalians, and now perhaps we can have the FrItaliCelts v England debate.

HammerofThunor wrote:No, you're missing the point. The PRL cannot play in a European competition without BT getting their games. The Unions never allowed this. Without that nothing else matters. The Unions could have said 100% of the money, governance, etc went to he PRL but without the BT deal the PRL cannot compete in it.

The 'compromise' was a smokescreen.

Simply wrong - the BT deal is the smokescreen. A compromise could have been reached onthis. Now BT have no competition and the PRL no TV deal. the PRL have right from the start refused to negotiate preferring diktat. Well they have got nothing now. McCafferys head must roll. He is the architect of the english clubs misfortune. They had no right to signa deal for a european cup without consultation, no right to demand to run any european cup, and their negotioating position of its this or nothing seems to have ended up with nothing for them

Wray and McCaffery are still saying the RCC will go ahead according to ESPN
http://www.espn.co.uk/heineken-cup-2013-14/rugby/story/206899.html
http://www.espn.co.uk/heineken-cup-2013-14/rugby/story/206869.html

Well since the celts (Euro celts rather than British celts) settled Northern Italy after the Romans and Italian rugby is based in the north, the Frelts would do. I'd hold off on discarding the Franglo until that's fully sorted (2nd Dec?).

Butterfingers, fault? Not sure what that's got to do with it. But yes the PRL deliberately signed up to BT to force the issue. The 'compromises' by the unions were still meaningless. If you're fond of conspiracies I'd say the non-RFU unions were deliberately stalling while they did deals behind their back (and put out a good media front, their PR has been a lot better than the PRL's that's for sure).

TJ wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:No, you're missing the point. The PRL cannot play in a European competition without BT getting their games. The Unions never allowed this. Without that nothing else matters. The Unions could have said 100% of the money, governance, etc went to he PRL but without the BT deal the PRL cannot compete in it.

The 'compromise' was a smokescreen.

Simply wrong - the BT deal is the smokescreen.  A compromise could have been reached onthis.  Now BT have no competition and the PRL no TV deal.  the PRL have right from the start refused to negotiate preferring diktat.  Well they have got nothing now.  McCafferys head must roll.  He is the architect of the english clubs misfortune.  They had no right to signa  deal for a european cup without consultation, no right to demand to run any european cup, and their negotioating position of its this or nothing seems to have ended up with nothing for them

So do you think the PRL should sign up for the current offer by the unions? If asked of course?

I think the PRL should go away and stop feeding their egos at the expense of rugby I would like the english teams to be in the european cup but if the price is the PRL running things then its too high

But can you not see that they could never be part of an ERC competition that has a Sky deal?

butterfingers wrote:'most importantly, given the inability of these unions to figure out this HC mess, do you honestly think they would all be able to toe the line together in actually boycotting WRC2015 with all their competing agendas and challenges?'

I'm sorry are all the unions not agreeing? Which union is not on the same page as the others? When did any of the unions disagree?

You see the unions are solid, and even ore so now the RFU have paid for the PRL's actions, they are more unified than they ever have been, that why English rugby is in trouble now.

I'm not saying that the Celtic, Italian and French unions would pull out of the RWC or 6N, but if the smaller nations have no other hand to play and have been told they face 'financial oblivion' what option do they have but to band together and force their hand?

The unions don't have to force the PRL to do anything, they can however force the RFU to do something.

Hammer,

Your right the BT deal is now engrained on whatever the PRL do, who's fault is that though?

so you think we are not in a mess. really.

lets quickly revisit some history...

FFR is first to file intention to withdraw from ERC on behalf on LNR...
PRL joins in and finds bigger TV deal..
roll on 14 months
FFR trying to exclude RFU and is in death match with its own clubs
PRL will not participate in HC and ERC, and probably not the majority of french clubs either

how is that not a mess?

the celtalians are the pingpong ball between FFR/LNR and RFU/PRL. is that solidarity or just a reflection of the relative power of the participants?

Griff wrote:Can we get a new name going now then? First it was Franglos, then Celtalians, and now perhaps we can have the FrItaliCelts v England debate.

as ever...

them

and us

although i have to admit a tad of disappointment that the welsh aren't with us.

The FFR has been on the side of the Celtic unions from the start. I imagine the deal they have with the LNR meant they had to give notice on their behalf.

HammerofThunor wrote:The FFR has been on the side of the Celtic unions from the start. I imagine the deal they have with the LNR meant they had to give notice on their behalf.

why would you imagine that?

also, FFR vetoed the first proposal that ERC made when the PRL weren't invited. wasnt LNR that vetoed it.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2012/oct/25/premiership-clubs-talks-heineken-cup

The French clubs were there and they rejected it. Nothing says the FFR did.

HammerofThunor wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2012/oct/25/premiership-clubs-talks-heineken-cup

The French clubs were there and they rejected it. Nothing says the FFR did.

pretty sure i have read somewhere that the FFR rejected it. cant be bothered to look for a link though so will concede the point.

the FFR have never been on the side of the celtic unions. they have always been on their own side. and then the celtic unions have jumped to whatever position the FFR take so i can understand why you might think that.

however, Camou is looking after Camou ( and also his buddy JP Lux), and his power struggle with the french clubs. he couldnt care less about the celtic unions and the sooner they realise this the better off they will be.

Oh yes the French are on their owns side. But the FFR have been on the side against the LNR a while now so it aligned them with the other unions. I hope the outcome of all this is a good deal between the French. If that involves them all siding with the ERC or not is irrelevant. Biggest worry is if the French go completely solo.

and i am going to laugh, a lot, if Camou doesnt deliver what he's promised in terms of french club participation to the ERC. Bayonne are going to get relegated. toulon will turn on FFR at the slightest moment. and the other clubs who may jump about the Camou train may well be those that otherwise wouldnt get to play HC rugby, oyonnax et al.

the celtic unions will be furious and gutted.

quinsforever wrote:and i am going to laugh, a lot, if Camou doesnt deliver what he's promised in terms of french club participation to the ERC. Bayonne are going to get relegated. toulon will turn on FFR at the slightest moment. and the other clubs who may jump about the Camou train may well be those that otherwise wouldnt get to play HC rugby, oyonnax et al.

the celtic unions will be furious and gutted.

You come across as incredibly bitter, quins. Take a weekend break away somewhere, and forget about rugby, winning, losing for awhile. It isn't healthy to be so wound up. A weekend break in Dublin, or Belfast, is just the ticket

i'm almost as relaxed as gibbo. for different reasons

havent been to dublin except on business since 94. long overdue. watched ireland v barbars. probably time to go again. maybe the oyster festival in galway instead - bit more appropriate age-wise?

quinsforever wrote:i'm almost as relaxed as gibbo. for different reasons

havent been to dublin except on business since 94. long overdue. watched ireland v barbars. probably time to go again. maybe the oyster festival in galway instead - bit more appropriate age-wise?

You're a bit late for this years festival, but there's always some event going on. I think Dublin, or Belfast is great for the young, and not so young really. You been on the single Malt, quins  

i think i may have been on weds with asbo. its all a bit blurry. lemsip again tonight just like last night i'm afraid.

and i prefer whiskEy

So how long before some of the english clubs ditch the PRL position and come clamouring to be let into the real european cup?

TJ wrote:So how long before some of the english clubs ditch the PRL position and come clamouring to be let into the real european cup?

I think this may be the hidden story here.

Much play being made of the French and Welsh being divided.
I would be amazed if it is not true of the English as well

I am sure it will be. Not all english clubs have single owners whos interests align with those of McCaffery and Wray. Aren't some of the clubs owned by fans or trusts?

I thought it looked like Camou was going to be able to force the French clubs to the ERC table en masse, but I think he's misplayed his hand by backing this solely 20 team competion that can at best accomodate only half the Top 14 (with a number of those spots supposedly bagsied by the bottom clubs that look like they will be relegated).

He really needed to offer them all a way out and tie them in to prevent ongoing issues.  This makes it more likely for a substantial number (maybe bulk) of the French sides to increasingly feel aggrieved and plot.  If need be they'll just wait for Camou's nearing departure before pushing their agenda again.  Things are not going to end well in France.

broadlandboy wrote:I am sure the IRB would look fondly upon those unions that mess with their cash cow

All world cup bids are tendered for prior to them being handed out. So lets assume the World Cup makes no money at all. The RFU had to tender for the WC to the tune of 100 million to win the right to host it. That will come straight out of the RFU coffers. Its up to the hosting Union to make back its money. The IRB don't give a toss either way - they have countries lined up left, right and centre to host the World Cup. So any World Cup income failure will only hurt the RFU at this stage.

quinsforever wrote:

butterfingers wrote:
'The only slight move from the past rhetoric was that the RFU were excluded from this Union meeting.'

This is key though, does anyone else not find it worrying that through the actions of the PRL the RFU have been excluded from a union meeting?

We are in a very different position whereas the RFU have not been invited to a meeting ALL unions have strengthened their positions in. The Celtic, Italian and French unions are now putting crazy pressure on the RFU.

Up until this week I always felt the PRL bloated and questionable tactics were in a position of power, now I think they are on the verge of isolation, and if they keep pounding away with law suits the RFU is going to suffer.

The RWC is just around the corner, how long will it take for one of the unions to start mentioning boycotting?

comedy, would make me laugh if any of them did threaten boycotting. they would get lynched by their home fans. they have until mid-dec i remember reading to sign up to the rwc2015. if they don't they will get replaced by the next teams on the list and on we go.

I think as everyone pointed out on here though that Wales, Ireland, Scotland, France & Italy probably wont win the WC in 2015 (neither will England btw), that's not the key point to them not attending. The real issue is that even with replacement teams the RFU wouldn't be able to maximise ticket sales for the matches. Sure they could replace the home nations but you would basically have no away fans at matches (because I cant see to much travelling support from the next in line nations) and that basically would mean you are looking to make 100 million in ticket sales from the England, South Africa, New Zealand & Australia matches. Good luck with that. The RFU would be broke by the end of it.

HammerofThunor wrote:No, you're missing the point. The PRL cannot play in a European competition without BT getting their games. The Unions never allowed this. Without that nothing else matters. The Unions could have said 100% of the money, governance, etc went to he PRL but without the BT deal the PRL cannot compete in it.

The 'compromise' was a smokescreen.

What I find crazy is that the PRL even signed the BT deal without actually sorting out the TV proposals with the LNR. Even the LNR did not know anything about this. Even the crazy French haven't done anything that silly and have left them still with commercial options.

I just think McCafferty jumped the gun to try and secure the Aviva deal with BT as I possibly don't believe they wanted to sign the Aviva deal without the European package tied in. If that wasn't the case then you have to say McCafferty was stupid to sign the terms so quickly without actually confirming the status with the LNR.

We all know what the French are unpredictable. The LNR could walk away from Europe altogether and expand their domestic league which you wouldn't put past them. Until you get the French to sign up to something you certainly can't start predicting what they are going to do.