So are the Lions a tradition that is worth hanging onto in this Pro era?

There has been a lot of topics written and discussed about the B+I Lions over the last few months, but there have been one or two of us that are of the opinion that maybe the Lions has run its course and perhaps maybe the home nations should look to build their teams so that they are able to beat the SH teams on their own, as imo we have the players (even Scotland can punch above their weight)

So are the Lions a tradition that is worth hanging onto in this Pro era or do you see at as nothing more than an exercise to make a few quid for the host nation, inflate a few egos and sell some shirts for Adidas?

Thought it would be fun to have a Poll to see what each Nations fans think.   

Why does it matter what nationality the voter is ?

I voted NO, but to be honest i am not sure.

Only till Phil Vickery retires...

Its just a Poll, nothing to fear Munkian.

But I suspect the Lions mean more to some Nations than others.   

Ah, silly me, it a thinly veiled attempt to devalue the last Lions tour due its Welsh contingent.

You must be we a hoot at the Bath clubhouse   

munkian wrote:Ah, silly me, it a thinly veiled attempt to devalue the last Lions tour due its Welsh contingent.

You must be we a hoot at the Bath clubhouse   

In your opinion!

Its just a Poll to see what people here on 606v2 think.   

Concept of the Lions is great, just there are a lot of supporters who are never going to embrace what its truly about

IronMike wrote:Concept of the Lions is great, just there are a lot of  supporters who are never going to embrace what its truly about

I have a collection of items for them to embrace....

Looks like the token Scot has been and gone!   

I think too much rugby is played by our top players and the Lions tour makes an already congested calender even worse. They're paid well enough you may say. But I think that given the attritional nature of rugby, the standard goes down the more games players have to play.

But for the players it's an honour. And just look at the large number of travelling fans that follow them. And I'm sure the TV money is pretty big. It's still really popular. As long as it's a money spinner for the four unions and their opponents then it's here to stay.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I think too much rugby is played by our top players and the Lions tour makes an already congested calender even worse. They're paid well enough you may say. But I think that given the attritional nature of rugby, the standard goes down the more games players have to play.

But for the players it's an honour. And just look at the large number of travelling fans that follow them. And I'm sure the TV money is pretty big. It's still really popular. As long as it's a money spinner for the four unions and their opponents then it's here to stay.

What was more entertaining, watching Ireland B get nilled by the All Blacks or Wales plus a token Scot Englishman beat Australia?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:I think too much rugby is played by our top players and the Lions tour makes an already congested calender even worse. They're paid well enough you may say. But I think that given the attritional nature of rugby, the standard goes down the more games players have to play.

But for the players it's an honour. And just look at the large number of travelling fans that follow them. And I'm sure the TV money is pretty big. It's still really popular. As long as it's a money spinner for the four unions and their opponents then it's here to stay.

What was more entertaining, watching Ireland B get nilled by the All Blacks or Wales plus a token Scot Englishman American beat Australia?

I suggest you attended a Wales game munk and buy a program and look at the 'place of birth' for a number of your Welsh heroes.

 

A rather boring argument in this day and age don't you think?   

I guess if you were being boringly sensible then you could argue that the concept of a tour is dead.

But as a fan, my 2 rugby travel ambitions are to go to a Lions tour in SA and go to the Hong Kong sevens. Frankly going to a tri nations country to watch England play a team who we will be hosting again in 6 months time holds little to no appeal.

Maybe I am just feeling grumpy after seeing the RWC ticket prices, but those combined with the PRL/HEC row and greedy scheduling makes me think it would be nice to keep some aspect of 'real' rugby going.

Scrumpy wrote:I suggest you attended a Wales game munk and buy a program and look at the 'place of birth' for a number of your Welsh heroes.

 

A rather boring argument in this day and age don't you think?   

Quite right, when I said token Englishman I meant George North.

 

I don't have a problem with St George playing for Wales, we live in a free world plus red suits him.

I have often wonderd what the Lions as to offer in recent years. But, who actualy benifits from a Lions tour? Do the players them selves benifit? The Lions players that is? or is it just a money making scheme for the Host country?

Nice to have a Lions tour on your CV, but with all the tours that take place these days I just don't think its needed, if we want the SH to take us seriously then we need to ditch the Lions and start winning games down South on our own.

I for one would rather have an England series win vs NZ than a Lions win, its a no brainer surely?

So you assume SH sides don't take us seriously? Not only is there no particular evidence that they don't but why would that matter anyway? Personally I'd take the win, respect is not a necessary requirement but rather a nice bonus if it is earned.

You embark on the false premise that NH sides currently need the Lions to defeat SH sides. They don't. England, Scotland and Ireland have all, in recent years, managed to beat SH sides in the SH. And prior to this year the last tour win was in 97 and all four B+I nations have secured wins over SH opposition in between.

If you're going to argue against the Lions at least use relevant arguments.

What like 'its nothing more than an exercise to make a few quid for the host nation, inflate a few egos and sell some shirts for Adidas? '

   Some NH teams win the odd game down south but it would be nice to win a series.


Interesting voting so far.

This would have been much more interesting if it had been after a badly run tour such as in 05. Seriously, why don't you stop sulking scrimpy?

The title started off hopefully even though this is a question that has been done to death….is the lions a viable tour…the short answer is yes, if as a fan you ever went on one you would know that to be true. It is the soul of rugby.

But then the poll reveals the true motivation of the poster, a thinly veiled and pathetic attempt to embellish bitter scrumpy's belief that only Welsh fans care about he lions because we dominated the selection in the first successful tour in 16 years. What is the relevance of the poster's nationality? Is everything you write motivated by hate scrimpy? Do you wake up in the morning and think….how can i make a muppet of myself today?

So what if Wales fans feel pride in the lions achievement. Should we be ashamed of forming the backbone of a winning tour? This was a great Lions success, with such a huge Welsh contingent is it any wonder therefore that the majority of voting fans are Welsh? Unlike 05 when an English dominated tour got munched, a Welsh dominated tour brought home the bacon…QED it must be devalued.

What makes me laugh about this latest little Lions poke of his is that it just shows the OP and other fans as not getting behind the concept and being sour faced because their players aren't up to scratch. Had this been a losing tour, like in 05, one could understand the sulkiness, but we won so as much as the OP can deny it, but we all know what he is driving at.

Scratch wrote:This would have been much more interesting if it had been after a badly run tour such as in 05. Seriously, why don't you stop sulking scrimpy?

The title started off hopefully even though this is a question that has been done to death….is the lions a viable tour…the short answer is yes, if as a fan you ever went on one you would know that to be true. It is the soul of rugby.

But then the poll reveals the true motivation of the poster, a thinly veiled and pathetic attempt to embellish bitter scrumpy's belief that only Welsh fans care about he lions because we dominated the selection in the first successful tour in 16 years. What is the relevance of the poster's nationality? Is everything you write motivated by hate scrimpy? Do you wake up in the morning and think….how can i make a muppet of myself today?

So what if Wales fans feel pride in the lions achievement. Should we be ashamed of forming the backbone of a winning tour? This was a great Lions success, with such a huge Welsh contingent is it any wonder therefore that the majority of voting fans are Welsh? Unlike 05 when an English dominated tour got munched, a Welsh dominated tour brought home the bacon…QED it must be devalued.

What makes me laugh about this latest little Lions poke of his is that it just shows the OP and other fans as not getting behind the concept and being sour faced because their players aren't up to scratch. Had this been a losing tour, like in 05, one could understand the sulkiness, but we won so as much as the OP can deny it, but we all know what he is driving at.

If the majority of the lions team was full of either English or Irish players, then this website would have been a much different place. They want to be bitter about it let them but there are some Irish, English, Welsh and Scots who love and follow the tradition and always will (not to mention the respect the southern hemisphere teams show towards it). So Uunlucky to all the haters of the Lions, its their own loss in a way.s

Yes but not in it's current form.

Whatever about the coaching/selection issues, midweek games against under-strength teams is a farce. The result is either a 50+ point victory snorefest or a deeply frustrating poor display/comedy of errors. I watch the Lions to be entertained.

Either reduce the tour to just the tests (maybe play more than three) or demand full strength club sides. If Aus/SA/NZ insist on wrapping their player in cotton wool before tests then look at expanding the horizon of the Lions (should be considered anyway). Tour France. Cheaper and easier for fans to follow. Midweek games vs Toulouse, Clermont, Toulon etc. Better yet, play a home and away tour vs the Pacific Island nations and Argentina. One game in each of the eight countries involved.

Knowsit17 wrote:

You embark on the false premise that NH sides currently need the Lions to defeat SH sides. They don't. England, Scotland and Ireland have all, in recent years, managed to beat SH sides in the SH.

That is not entirely true, they beat Australia in recent times.

The only home union to beat NZ or SA at home is England and the last time that happened was in 2003 and 2000 respectively.

Engine#4 wrote:Yes but not in it's current form.

Whatever about the coaching/selection issues, midweek games against under-strength teams is a farce. The result is either a 50+ point victory snorefest or a deeply frustrating poor display/comedy of errors.  I watch the Lions to be entertained.

Either reduce the tour to just the tests (maybe play more than three) or demand full strength club sides.  If Aus/SA/NZ insist on wrapping their player in cotton wool before tests then look at expanding the horizon of the Lions (should be considered anyway).  Tour France. Cheaper and easier for fans to follow.  Midweek games vs Toulouse, Clermont, Toulon etc.  Better yet, play a home and away tour vs the Pacific Island nations and Argentina.  One game in each of the eight countries involved.

good point well made Engine regarding the club games, but i still don't understand why the format of going to NZ, SA or Aus every 4 years needs changing. There are few traditions in rugby but this is one of them that has stood the test of time and professionalism, long may it continue

The lions is a huge concept and we love it down in NZ. SA/Oz are probably the same. We don't really get the touring parties in the June tests but do in the lions and it's great fun mixing with you rabble. It brings a nice vibe when fans from both sides have a few beers after the games. You guys enjoy being on a rugby holiday and that rubs off on the host country and we feed off that energy and do our best to make it enjoyable.

One off 'pro' rugby RC, AI and June tests etc are a bit sterile and all about the win and move on. The lions is more a festival vibe with the fans. It means a lot to host nations and good for the game as it brings the NH and SH together. End up saying those NH folk are good buggars even if we struggle to say nice things about your rugby team:). Unfortunate the last one tore lions fans apart.

Why are some of you so suspectous, it's just a harmless poll, the reason the fans are split up is that the lions represents 4 nations so it's only fair to split the vote up to have a fair result.

 

Welsh fan, no. I think after Sir Warren had such a successful tour, it won't ever be topped again.

I don't understand why the poster is accused of trying to stir up England vs Wales animosity. The argument about the value of Lions tours is constantly raised.

They are still both popular and lucrative but I argued before the last tour that the schedule harms the World Cup chances of all the Home Unions.

The concept of the tour is still attractive for players, fans and sponsors but I suspect we'll reach a point where the Lions outstay their welcome.

It wasn't much remarked upon at the time, but Jonny Wilkinson's decision to turn down a chance to tour might not be the last. Sure, Wilko explained that he would have loved to tour. Ultimately, though, he placed his club longevity ahead of that honour.

In the future, I think we could see more deciding they would rather be available for an active club season than a Lions tour. After all, Toby Flood is on the verge of deciding to give up the chance of another World Cup. He's only 28.

Yes it's a tradition worth holding on to, depending on how much Adidas and the organisers want to keep winning. If they have any sense then they'd buy Warren Gatland out of his contract with Wales for £1M and employ him full time, thus giving him plenty of preparation for the NZ and SA tours.

The Yoof don't appear to "get" the Lions so the concept is on borrowed time.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I think too much rugby is played by our top players and the Lions tour makes an already congested calender even worse. They're paid well enough you may say. But I think that given the attritional nature of rugby, the standard goes down the more games players have to play.

But for the players it's an honour. And just look at the large number of travelling fans that follow them. And I'm sure the TV money is pretty big. It's still really popular. As long as it's a money spinner for the four unions and their opponents then it's here to stay.

Agree there is far too much Rugby.   However, if we had a more rational schedule with fewer games, there would be time for the occasional special, such as the Lions and even the Barbarians.  

For me, the purpose of reducing the number of games each season (internationals and club/team matches combined) is to save wear and tear on our players.  Fewer matches equals fewer injuries plus longer off-season to recover.  Fewer injuries equals better Rugby played by better players.  Better Rugby equals growth opportunities for Rugby.  However, as I said above, fewer matches would allow for the occasional event such as the RWC, Lions and even the Barabrians without causing undue damage.

Rugby is now big business

There will be more of it, not less.

None of the networks give a rats behind about the players welfare, they want bums on seats and tv deals.

Greed is good.

Scratch wrote:Rugby is now big business

There will be more of it, not less.

None of the networks give a rats behind about the players welfare, they want bums on seats and tv deals.

Greed is good.

Players, supporters, networks and sponsors all loved the Barbarians. The team is now a shadow of its former self. More rugby doesn't mean more of everything. It can't meant more of everything.

I thought it was fun watching the Lions fans on here all fighting amongst themselves over selections culminating in the BOD debacle. NZ in 2017 will be interesting- depending on who wins the world cup...NZ's 2nd chance to go back to back- foiled by Campese's capers in 91...

Scrumpy wrote: 

I don't have a problem with St George playing for Wales, we live in a free world plus red suits him.

I also suggest you ask him what nationality he is and then argue with him when he tells you, you silly and stupid little boy.

rainbow-warrior wrote:

Scrumpy wrote: 

I don't have a problem with St George playing for Wales, we live in a free world plus red suits him.

I also suggest you ask him what nationality he is and then argue with him when he tells you, you silly and stupid little boy.

   How d'ya like them rotten apples Scrumpy?

Taylorman wrote:I thought it was fun watching the Lions fans on here all fighting amongst themselves over selections culminating in the BOD debacle. NZ in 2017 will be interesting- depending on who wins the world cup...NZ's 2nd chance to go back to back- foiled by Campese's capers in 91...

Also be fun to see if another Kiwi is put on his arse after trying to nick my Welsh flag during the 2005 tour, if you talking about people fighting  

rainbow-warrior wrote:

Scrumpy wrote: 

I don't have a problem with St George playing for Wales, we live in a free world plus red suits him.

I also suggest you ask him what nationality he is and then argue with him when he tells you, you silly and stupid little boy.

British

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

rainbow-warrior wrote:

Scrumpy wrote: 

I don't have a problem with St George playing for Wales, we live in a free world plus red suits him.

I also suggest you ask him what nationality he is and then argue with him when he tells you, you silly and stupid little boy.

British

Good answer!

I really don't understand why some people are getting so upset, this has been raised before in the media so why can't we have a sensible discussion here with out the finger pointing and accusations of being anti Wales etc? (boring)

The fact is the top players are playing too many games, careers can be over in a blink of an eye so should there be extra pressure on players every four years just to keep up a tradition which has little value now seeing how many international games are played every year.

Club rugby should be sacrificed for the lions.

ebop wrote:Club rugby should be sacrificed for the lions.

I agree. Lions rugby is more important. Neutral coach and we are back in business.

Well worth keeping but it does need to have a coach from outside the current managers of the nations involved.

What would the NH sides squabble about for one year out of four without the Lions? Without that, it would just be endless tedious debates about whether the 6N was devalued and why Wales can't beat SH opposition...   

The squabbling this year was unprecedented. I guess thats what happens when you throw a Kiwi with a personal agenda in the mix.

The poll is interesting reading, 3 of the 4 home nations is about 50:50 split.

I recon if this poll was run after the 2009 it would have been very different, I guess Pro rugby is slowly changing how fans view teams like the Lions and Baa baas.

IMO they have a negative effect on both Club and Country and are not part of the Pro-eras future, maybe it is best to do away with them sooner rather than later.

In fairness irish fans are 11 to 5 in favour of the Lions. Thats not quite 50-50. Similar with England fans. Scots seem the most disgruntled which isnt really surprising.

GunsGerms wrote:In fairness irish fans are 11 to 5 in favour of the Lions. Thats not quite 50-50. Similar with England fans. Scots seem the most disgruntled which isnt really surprising.

4 to 2 is close enough