'The Welsh 6' to be loaned to English Clubs?

First topic message reminder :

WRU ‘will move their top stars to England’

Sam Warburton
Leigh Halfpenny
Adam Jones
Alun Wyn Jones
Rhys Priestland?
Scott Williams?

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/domestic-club-rugby-union/pro12-celtic-league/13423/wru-will-move-their-op-stars-to-england/

Any takers?

I'm sure Bath could take AWJ and 1/2p  
The good bit is the Clubs that do take them on won't have to pay a fine if they are released outside of the IRB window as they are loaned players.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/english-clubs-unlikely-to-take-welsh-players-on-loan-1.1648235

Kingshu wrote:

Think everyone is forgetting that under premiership rules clubs are not allowed players under 3rd party contracts

Ah you have made two key mistakes with this post.

1) You assume that the PRL will not be willing to bent all of its rules and regs to allow a union that have nothing to do with them drop players in and out of the PRL clubs as they see fit. I can't see any reason that the PRL would object to a union having involvement in the club game, especially an external union.

2) You assume that that the truth and logic have any bearing on any debate involving the death of rugby in Wales.

The could maybe be sent to the top 14 (WRU doing its bit to stop the welsh exodus to France) they could be play for other pro 12 teams! After all the other unions would see it as helping the WRU. Would really help out the Italians to have a few Welsh internationals between the international windows!

Why would S15 not work. The last season there were a fair few injuries so they could get games against the top teams.

Surely it would be what gatts would perfer

players are not chess pieces.

they also have to agree any loan arrangement.

its a long way from the valleys to the SH

quinsforever wrote:

players are not chess pieces.

they also have to agree any loan arrangement.

its a long way from the valleys to the SH

If they are as good as they think they are I'm sure they could manage. Plus winning against SH teams might help their belief.

of course they would manage. but they would not want to go. no family. no support from national squad. problems getting to wales squad training and 13day match preparation...etc, etc.

is a non-starter for player and country.

quinsforever wrote:of course they would manage. but they would not want to go. no family. no support from national squad. problems getting to wales squad training and 13day match preparation...etc, etc.

is a non-starter for player and country.

Sure it will be fine. Not much different to this PRL lead competition with the South African's some were spouting about   

I do find all this suggestion quiet contradictry.

You can play with the english

BUT

Your top players can play in England for us

Brendan wrote:I do find all this suggestion quiet contradictry.

You can play with the english

BUT

Your top players can play in England for us

It is all rumour, and conjecture, no player or agent or union rep has publicly stated that a centralised contract has been offered to a player yet. And the same goes for the idea of sending them elsewhere. The whole thing came about because when the wru were going to buy George North and contract him, but place him at the Blues the four regions told the union that they refuse tovfeild any centrally contracted players, so if they union contract these six they wouldn't be playing for the regions.

As for shipping them to the SH you need to remember that some of the players have young kids, who are welsh speakers, go to welsh language schools etc. It is not just a simple case of moving to another country for them (the players), it is taking their kids to a place totally alien, taking their kids away from grandparents cousins and friends, and making them have to adapt to learning in English and not speaking welsh.

Sometimes it is easy to forget that rugby is only a job, and some things are far more important to players, and family is a pretty big thing for most people.

Its all just bullsheeet speculation and aint gonna happen

I have said it before and will say it again...the pro-clubs/pretend regions are gonna come out of this smelling of roses and nothing is going to change except the 'regions' are gonna be even better funded than before. Be prepared to see smug smiles from Gallagher and Pieman etc. by the end of January

Steffan wrote:Its all just bullsheeet speculation and aint gonna happen

I have said it before and will say it again...the pro-clubs/pretend regions are gonna come out of this smelling of roses and nothing is going to change except the 'regions' are gonna be even better funded than before. Be prepared to see smug smiles from Gallagher and Pieman etc. by the end of January

Better than smug smiles on Reardon and Owen Smith MP though, I reckon. Hopefully they'll come up with a more realistic alternative next time.

Risca Rev wrote:Better than smug smiles on Reardon and Owen Smith MP though, I reckon. Hopefully they'll come up with a more realistic alternative next time.

Why better? And when has Reardon ever been smug? Or are you just looking for a petty wind up?

Steffan wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:Better than smug smiles on Reardon and Owen Smith MP though, I reckon. Hopefully they'll come up with a more realistic alternative next time.

Why better? And when has Reardon ever been smug? Or are you just looking for a petty wind up?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25580071 wrote:"We would look at any proposal objectively, but without knowing any detail it is very difficult," said Pontypridd chief executive Stephen Reardon. ......................

...................."Much is often said about populations in various areas of Wales.

"Rhondda Cynon Taff is the second most populated area in Wales and in the last census it was about 296,000 against Cardiff being the most populated area at about 300,000." .......................

"There has been no contact between the Welsh Rugby Union and Pontypridd, regarding the issue dominating Welsh rugby at the moment," said Reardon.

"However, if the WRU were to approach Pontypridd on this matter we would be prepared to consider the proposals they put on the table.

"Obviously, this is mere speculation but we are always prepared to listen to any proposal objectively, especially in the interests of Pontypridd RFC and Welsh rugby as a whole." ...........................

...................."Everything we do here at Pontypridd, we do in the interests of Pontypridd as a club," said Reardon.

"We are a community club, a valleys club, we play in the Premier Division, we aspire to play at the highest level possible within the game

"We are flying the flag for Wales in the British and Irish Cup, we are top of our group and we have aspirations to win our group."

Those are his quotes from the article.

A few things stood out to me.

1) It seems a bit bum-about-face that he claims that the 'region' is pretty large, but then says everything is done for Pontypridd RFC. Either your a region or a pro-club, after all that is what the claims of the Pro-Valleys Rugby folk. Now it seems that you can be a pro-club and a region. Make your minds up before your supporters start to throw mud at the current regions!

2) It seems a bit arrogant to put out a press release saying that they are ready to fill the void the regions have left behind, when the WRU have not made an official request from them. After all didn't Ponty run the Blues down for being arrogant utilising their region by hiring the Chief and Dicomidis.

3) It seems pretty smug to make a big thing about being the B&I flag bearers, when they are the only side that don't seem to want to work alongside their region.

But hey-ho we all interpret these things in our own way.

I would take Tait over Halfpenny everyday of the week,







Wait What!

What does the World look like through those Tigers specs   

geoff999rugby wrote:What does the World look like through those Tigers specs   

sarcasm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:1) It seems a bit bum-about-face that he claims that the 'region' is pretty large, but then says everything is done for Pontypridd RFC.  Either your a region or a pro-club, after all that is what the claims of the Pro-Valleys Rugby folk.  Now it seems that you can be a pro-club and a region.  Make your minds up before your supporters start to throw mud at the current regions!

No different to anything Pieman or Gallagher has said over the last 10 years (Slimey Stuart saying Llanelli was a bigger club that Swansea, Neath and Bridgend put together ring any bells?). And yes you can be a pro-club and a region...just ask Llanelli Scarlets RFC Region, Swansea Ospreys RFC Region, Cardiff Blues RFC Region and Newport Dragons RFC Region   

ScarletSpiderman wrote:2) It seems a bit arrogant to put out a press release saying that they are ready to fill the void the regions have left behind, when the WRU have not made an official request from them.  After all didn't Ponty run the Blues down for being arrogant utilising their region by hiring the Chief and Dicomidis.

I will let you in to a little secret. Dont tell no one though (hope your icle brain can take it) PONTYPRIDD RFC IS A BUSINESS. Cardiff Blues 'utilising' them and taking away Chief and Dico has caused disruption to a team top of the Welsh league. What do you expect Ponty to say...'We are happy that a player that has served the club over 20 years (Ponty even gave him a job with Just Rentals) as a player and coach has left to join someone else at very short notice. Think about it  

ScarletSpiderman wrote:3) It seems pretty smug to make a big thing about being the B&I flag bearers, when they are the only side that don't seem to want to work alongside their region.

Why wouldnt they be happy about being B&I flag bearers...its the best competition the club can play in right now. The 'regions' dont want to work alongside the WRU but this is ok to you as long as Llanelli Scarlets come out of this fine. Seems to be ok for the Welsh 'regions' to hype themselves up and look after their interests but as soon a little ol' Ponty do it.....ooh thats so wrong

On a final note...Valleys Rugby probably would have been a superclub pretending to be a region playing out of one ground (Ponty) and eventually ended up demanding more money......so in short......no different to the 4 piles of shambolic crap that we have now in Wales. Mock Ponty and Valleys rugby all you want but take a look in the mirror at what you support now before doing it

Welly wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:What does the World look like through those Tigers specs   

sarcasm

Sometimes a post just needs it it.
Tait is a decent player but better than Halfpenny - you would be very hard pressed to fine someone who agrees with you - including I suspect Tait himself

I think 1/2p running game is no better than Taits.

IMO 1/2p is nothing more than a kicking machine these days and is not the player I thought he would be when I first saw him play.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:...
As for shipping them to the SH you need to remember that some of the players have young kids, who are welsh speakers, go to welsh language schools etc. It is not just a simple case of moving to another country for them (the players), it is taking their kids to a place totally alien, taking their kids away from grandparents cousins and friends, and making them have to adapt to learning in English and not speaking welsh.  
...

In that case there is always Argentina... (and yes the Welsh government does give money to promote Welsh in Argentina)
  

Steff - I have replied to you but on the What's Going On In Wales thread to try and avoid us derailing this one   

lostinwales wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:...
As for shipping them to the SH you need to remember that some of the players have young kids, who are welsh speakers, go to welsh language schools etc. It is not just a simple case of moving to another country for them (the players), it is taking their kids to a place totally alien, taking their kids away from grandparents cousins and friends, and making them have to adapt to learning in English and not speaking welsh.  
...

In that case there is always Argentina... (and yes the Welsh government does give money to promote Welsh in Argentina)
  

 
Patagnia, that is a real option   

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:...
As for shipping them to the SH you need to remember that some of the players have young kids, who are welsh speakers, go to welsh language schools etc. It is not just a simple case of moving to another country for them (the players), it is taking their kids to a place totally alien, taking their kids away from grandparents cousins and friends, and making them have to adapt to learning in English and not speaking welsh.  
...

In that case there is always Argentina... (and yes the Welsh government does give money to promote Welsh in Argentina)
  

 
Patagonia, that is a real option    

Well as least it is a real region   

Craicer, geoff.

Hound of Harrow wrote:

Craicer, geoff.

+1 to that. Maybe we could look at Pensylvania too. Ireland could use Boston, and we could look at getting an Americas League going.

It will benefit the Wales national side to have their key players' skills brushed up in the English premiership.  

gregortree wrote:It will benefit the Wales national side to have their key players' skills brushed up in the English premiership.  

Or just leave them on the bench.

gregortree wrote:It will benefit the Wales national side to have their key players' skills brushed up in the English premiership.  

Given the last three results at International level between Wales and England this would seem a bizarre comment.

Taff in E ,I refer to the rude good health of the AP club scene vs the regions. Plus I was whistling.

Scrumpy wrote:I think 1/2p running game is no better than Taits.

IMO 1/2p is nothing more than a kicking machine these days and is not the player I thought he would be when I first saw him play.

1/2p is much faster.

Unfortunately 1/2p has been coached not to counter attack which has left him looking a lessor player. I would love to see 1/2p playing for a team that plays a higher risk attacking game and I would love to see Wales use him in a more attacking role

"1/2p is much faster."

Is that a fact as Tait was pretty quick.
Do you have times?

No times just my impression / opinion.

I don't see being a welsh speaker a problem otherwise they'd never leave wales

My family lived in a welsh speaking area for a couple of years and loved it but moving to parts of Ireland or Scotland would be simillar.

My siblings knowing welsh helped them speak irish quickly.

If players are worried they can afford a private teacher.

TJ wrote:No times just my impression / opinion.  

Speculation then!

As a Glaws sufferer this season, I look forward to Hibbard turning out for the club next season, to help bolster the front row alongside Afoa. We'll lose him for the international windows ...if that gets written into his club contract...but he should be beneficial overall. He'll need some jumpers to team with though.

What will 'The Shed' make of Hibbards girly blonde hair?   

If Hibbard shows up and plays ... I have no reason to think he will not...the Shed will fully embrace their new hairy hero. Some of our backs look like they were coiffed by One Directions stylist.

gregortree wrote:If Hibbard shows up and plays ... I have no reason to think he will not...the Shed will fully embrace their new hairy hero. Some of our backs look like they were coiffed by One Directions stylist.

Modern rugby players are soft these days.

We just need to add Adam Jones at TH to really rock the Shed Head hair officionados.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Bath get Scott Williams? They have the already excellent Eastmond and shelled out on Joseph in the summer. Tigers have the far cheaper Mat Tait. Sarries would never fit, AWJ under the cap. Unless these are all paid by the WRU and loaned at a peppercorn rate in which case the 6 unlucky PRL members will go bananas and look to halt the deals.

Don't see how this would create problems for Sarries?

They already have a massive squad, far bigger than any other Premiership club and avoid the salary cap as they are largely paid for by a foreign RU... what's 6 more?

Scrumpy wrote:WRU ‘will move their top stars to England’

Sam Warburton
Leigh Halfpenny
Adam Jones
Alun Wyn Jones
Rhys Priestland?
Scott Williams?

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/domestic-club-rugby-union/pro12-celtic-league/13423/wru-will-move-their-op-stars-to-england/

Any takers?

I'm sure Bath could take AWJ and 1/2p  
The good bit is the Clubs that do take them on won't have to pay a fine if they are released outside of the IRB window as they are loaned players.

Quins will happily take Scott Williams, Jones or AWJ if we can afford them! Or JD2 if he's on offer too

gregortree wrote:As a Glaws sufferer this season, I look forward to Hibbard turning out for the club next season, to help bolster the front row alongside Afoa. We'll lose him for the international windows ...if that gets written into his club contract...but he should  be beneficial overall. He'll need some jumpers to team with though.

Not sure he needs anything written into his contract to be allowed release during the windows. That's the whole point of the international windows. The clubs have to, by IRB law, release players during the windows. It's outside the windows when players may or may not have things written into contracts, but as was seen with North and Northampton there may be a fine if a club agrees such a contract. With North as a precedent I can't see other clubs setting themselves up for a fine.

The Welsh participation agreement allows the national team to call up players playing in Wales earlier than normal (I.e. Before the window starts) so that Gatland can have extra time with them. Some of the French based players have managed to get this earlier than normal release written into their contracts. Some others haven't.

Griff wrote:

gregortree wrote:As a Glaws sufferer this season, I look forward to Hibbard turning out for the club next season, to help bolster the front row alongside Afoa. We'll lose him for the international windows ...if that gets written into his club contract...but he should  be beneficial overall. He'll need some jumpers to team with though.

Not sure he needs anything written into his contract to be allowed release during the windows. That's the whole point of the international windows. The clubs have to, by IRB law, release players during the windows. It's outside the windows when players may or may not have things written into contracts, but as was seen with North and Northampton there may be a fine if a club agrees such a contract. With North as a precedent I can't see other clubs setting themselves up for a fine.

The Welsh participation agreement allows the national team to call up players playing in Wales earlier than normal (I.e. Before the window starts) so that Gatland can have extra time with them. Some of the French based players have managed to get this earlier than normal release written into their contracts. Some others haven't.

Except I suspect that Saints were very clever and incorporated the acknowledgment of the fine in the contract discussions, and thus agreed (in return for the clause releasing North for outside-of-the-window Wales matches) a cheaper contract using this as leverage. Even if the fine was more than they got off the contract, it would be worth it as the salary cap is a bigger barrier to squad building than the actual amount of money a club like Saints has...

It depends if the fine is fixed, whether it occurs once or continues (Mallinder said it was a one off so we'll see), and whether there is an escaltion if it becomes more standard. IMO it should also come into the salary cap.

I agree Hammer. Saints can't have known at the time whether they'd a) get a fine in the first place, b) how much it would be (it could have been a cool million!) or c) how often they'd get fined if they broke it (every time they released him, once a season, once in the whole contract). It seems like a one off, but it was a massive gamble IF they knew they'd be in trouble, beforehand.

HammerofThunor wrote:It depends if the fine is fixed, whether it occurs once or continues (Mallinder said it was a one off so we'll see), and whether there is an escaltion if it becomes more standard.  IMO it should also come into the salary cap.

It must be once surely as was it for having an agreement to leave a player go outside the window. Surely the PRL has no say when a player has to be at his club, as clubs can give players weeks off whenever they want. As shown by matches v Sarries

Griff wrote:I agree Hammer. Saints can't have known at the time whether they'd a) get a fine in the first place, b) how much it would be (it could have been a cool million!) or c) how often they'd get fined if they broke it (every time they released him, once a season, once in the whole contract). It seems like a one off, but it was a massive gamble IF they knew they'd be in trouble, beforehand.

Pretty sure they did know, it's not something the PRL came up with on the spot, it was a known regulation and Saints will have been involved in voting for it initially...

Brendan wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:It depends if the fine is fixed, whether it occurs once or continues (Mallinder said it was a one off so we'll see), and whether there is an escaltion if it becomes more standard.  IMO it should also come into the salary cap.

It must be once surely as was it for having an agreement to leave a player go outside the window.  Surely the PRL has no say when a player has to be at his club, as clubs can give players weeks off whenever they want.  As shown by matches v Sarries

No, they were fined for releasing a player to play in another competition when a Premiership game was on. He can be left with Wales during the off weekends of the 6 Nations and extra training before because he's not playing and it counts as reasonable rest periods in the policy (probably a good thing as it gives his body chance to recover between internationals and helps ensure he'll be fit afterwards.

"Premier Rugby chief Mark McCafferty said, "The players are required to be at their clubs for those games. Under International Rugby Board regulations when international fixtures are agreed, they must take place in the international window. Under IRB regulation nine players can only be assembled for international duty by mutual agreement with their clubs and regions."
Read more at http://www.espnscrum.com/wales/rugby/story/84903.html#tsMx8reiSqcz47Oe.99