Scotland and the summer tour!

by Majestic83 Mon 17 Mar 2014, 6:47 pm

Games:

Saturday 7 June:
United States of America v Scotland
BBVA Compass Stadium, Houston, Texas

Saturday 14 June:
Canada v Scotland
BMO Field, Toronto, Ontario

Saturday 21 June:
Argentina v Scotland
Estadio Mario Alberto Kempes, Córdoba

Saturday 28 June:
South Africa v Scotland
Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium, Port Elizabeth

***
Now the 6 nations are over there will be major changes for Scotland between now and the next international.
Vern Cotter will be the head coach for the next test with scott Johnson moving to director of rugby. Unclear yet if Cotter will bring in his own coaching team or whether he will inherit the current crop.

The 6 nations has been a disaster for Scotland but I still believe Scotland has some very good players and a lot of the problems in the 6 nations stem from poor coaching, tactics, very bad selection and man management. Glasgow regularly beat the top Rambo teams, Edinburgh can as well and a lot of the exile players are playing at the very top teams in England and France and winning week in week out but for some reason when they pull on the blue jersey something just isn't there.
This will all change when Cotter arrives. Speaking to Chris Paterson and al kellock a few weeks ago they can't wait for cotter to arrive as they say his coaching style and manner is that of a modern day Jim Telfer and they believe exactly what this squad need.

From a playing point of view there are a few players that should be dropped and not selected for the summer tour. For me they are Ryan Wilson, Tim Swinson, Greig Laidlaw.
Wilson is good at number 8 for Glasgow but is not a 6 at international level. We have 3 far better 6's available yet none were picked. Would Wilson get in the team at 8? For me, nope. Denton, Beattie are far better options and I would say Ali Hogg is also far better than wilson. Why was he picked? Because Johnson thought he was a good "kid". It's not wilson a fault he was picked out of position but there are far better options.
Tim Swinson was very poor compared to his form on last years summer tour. He didn't seem to have the same grunt or energy and was ver ineffective. Again there are other options at lock like Gilchrist who has improved a lot this season and has a harder edge about him now and also johnnycake gray.
Greig Laidlaw was put in the autumn tests and even worse in the 6 nations. His decision making was poor, his service was extremely slow. He offers no break or snipe at all and his main attribute his goal kicking has been poor. Custer looks far sharper, when he has played and deserves a shot. He also has very good leadership qualities. Grayson Hart is also in top form and deserves a chance on recent form. Quick pass, physical and knows the way to the line.

The Backrow was the biggest concern during the 6 nations, it was unbalanced and very off pace. The back row needs balance and a good back row will have 3 players with different qualities, a scavenger who makes a nuisance of himself and tackles his heart out. A hard worker who will do the unseen stuff at the breakdown and then a big athletic ball carrier who will run all day making the hard yards. Scotland have these options but went for three players who were all very similar. It didn't work and must be changed.

The summer tour we play Canada, USA, Argentina and South Africa. The first two teams we "should" beat comfortably the other two will be tough and physical. They will probably take a squad of between 32 and 35.
I'd go with 6 props
Ryan grant
Ali Dickinson
Jon welsh but has to move back to loose head where he is far more destructive.
Euan murray
Geoff cross
Moray low not great during 6 nations but would like to see what difference cotter can make.

Squad

North America

LH - Allan, Reid, Traynor
H - Bryce, Lawson, McArthur
TH - Cross, Low
SR - Gilchrist, Gray, Hamilton, Low
6/8 - Beattie, Brown, Strokosh
7 - Cowan

SH - Hart, Laidlaw
SO - Heathcoat, Russell
IC - Taylor
OC -Bennett
W - Evans, Lamont, Maitland, Visser
FB - Hogg

Argentina / SA

LH - Dickinson, Reid
H - Bryce, Ford, McArthur
TH - Cross, Low, Welsh
SR - Gilchrist, Gray, Swinson
6/8 - Denton, Harley,
7 - Fusaro

SH - Hart, Pyrgos
SO - Jackson, Weir
IC - Horne
OC - ?
W - Fife, Maitland, Seymour
FB - Hogg, Murchie

by **Biltong** Mon 17 Mar 2014, 7:34 pm

Looking forward to see you boys in SA this June, the match is played at the Nelson Mandela Bay stadium, it should be a grand occasion in one of our most beautiful stadiums.

by Scratch Mon 17 Mar 2014, 7:43 pm

Biltong wrote:Looking forward to see you boys in SA this June, the match is played at the Nelson Mandela Bay stadium, it should be a grand occasion in one of our most beautiful stadiums.

scotland touring SA too?

by **Biltong** Mon 17 Mar 2014, 7:56 pm

Yeah, we have two matches against Wales, I thought it was supposed to be three, we even arranged to start our Super arugby round a week before Australia and NZ, but it seems the first match was cancelled.

We meet Scotland on the 28th of June.

by reallybored Mon 17 Mar 2014, 10:35 pm

We've got a brutal summer tour, 4 Test matches in 3 Continents over a month. By the time we get to you Biltong, I dread to think what condition our squad will be in.

USA - 7th June (Texas)
Canada - 14th June (Toronto)
Argentina - 21st June (tbc)
South Africa - 28th June (Port Elizabeth)

Not really ideal before the run up to a World Cup, I'd be tempted to rest a number of players to ensure a full pre-season (Grant, Ford, Murray, Gray, Hamilton, Brown, Rennie, Beattie, Laidlaw, Lamont, Maitland, Hogg)

Take a young squad and aim to win at least 75%. Even with a young team I'd expect us to beat USA and Canada, going into a tough Pumas match with confidence could be the difference because there's definitely enough talent in the team to beat them. Obviously to beat South Africa we'd need to play near 100% and put them totally off their game but we've been close before.

1 - Welsh
2 - MacArthur
3 - Cross
4 - Gilchrist
5 - Gray
6 - Harley
7 - Barclay
8 - Denton

9 - Cusiter (c)
10 - Weir
11 - Visser
12 - Scott
13 - Dunbar
14 - Seymour
15 - Tonks

16 - Lawson
17 - Dickinson
18 - Low
19 - Swinson
20 - Wilson
21 - Kennedy
22 - Horne
23 - Bennett

24 - Brown
25 - Reid
26 - ? (will Cusack be qualified? could we take him with the squad anyway?)
27 - Low
28 - Strokosch
29 - Hogg
30 - Hart
31 - Jackson / Heathcote (honestly think settling with Weir for now is the best bet for our team)
32 - Taylor
33 - Fife
34 - Cuthbert

by Solid8 Tue 18 Mar 2014, 4:50 pm

Cotter must have been watching the 6N wondering what the hell he has got himself into.

The priority for this tour has to be undoing some of the damage inflicted by Johnson. I do not care too much who plays but I would like to see the following (in no particular order):

1. Play our players in their strongest position unless there is no other option. We have the players to cover most injuries / suspensions why force our guys to operate outside of their comfort zone? I would much rather see a dedicated 7 who has played there week in week out for most of his career line up when he is off form than a 6 or an 8.

2. Use the bench sensibly. Too often in modern rugby benches are emptied because it is expected and the substitutions have been planned long before kick off, there is nothing wrong with pulling players who are having an off day or struggling to compete in the set piece but don't make changes for the sake of it.

3. No more blooding players for the sake of it. We have a sufficient squad to take us forward to the WC if we really need to bring in new caps then I am not against it but for now the focus should be making the most out of the resources available to the team.

4. Develop a core group of experienced players, who are consistent performers, can lead by example and are proven to have a level head. These guys should be the first names on the team sheet, irrespective of who we are playing, and the captain should be amongst them. They also need to be spread evenly amongst the forwards and backs guys like; Lawson, Grant, Beattie, Brown, Cuisiter, Lamont and Maitland.

5. Operate a closed camp. No one speaks to the press apart from the management, the captain and the MOM (if one of our players is awarded it). The focus of the tour must be on team building not building players profiles with the media, keep all other distractions to a minimum.

I honestly think that we have a talented bunch of guys who if managed correctly are capable of being a very good team. Cotter is a well respected coach and he had a huge impact when he arrived at Clermont. Seeing the difference that Schmidt made to the Ireland team is the only thing preventing me from disappearing into a large black hole of despair - it can be done.

by Majestic83 Tue 18 Mar 2014, 4:59 pm

Solid8 wrote:Cotter must have been watching the 6N wondering what the hell he has got himself into.

The priority for this tour has to be undoing some of the damage inflicted by Johnson. I do not care too much who plays but I would like to see the following (in no particular order):

1. Play our players in their strongest position unless there is no other option. We have the players to cover most injuries / suspensions why force our guys to operate outside of their comfort zone? I would much rather see a dedicated 7 who has played there week in week out for most of his career line up when he is off form than a 6 or an 8.

2. Use the bench sensibly. Too often in modern rugby benches are emptied because it is expected and the substitutions have been planned long before kick off, there is nothing wrong with pulling players who are having an off day or struggling to compete in the set piece but don't make changes for the sake of it.

3. No more blooding players for the sake of it. We have a sufficient squad to take us forward to the WC if we really need to bring in new caps then I am not against it but for now the focus should be making the most out of the resources available to the team.

4. Develop a core group of experienced players, who are consistent performers, can lead by example and are proven to have a level head. These guys should be the first names on the team sheet, irrespective of who we are playing, and the captain should be amongst them. They also need to be spread evenly amongst the forwards and backs guys like; Lawson, Grant, Beattie, Brown, Cuisiter, Lamont and Maitland.

5. Operate a closed camp. No one speaks to the press apart from the management, the captain and the MOM (if one of our players is awarded it). The focus of the tour must be on team building not building players profiles with the media, keep all other distractions to a minimum.

I honestly think that we have a talented bunch of guys who if managed correctly are capable of being a very good team. Cotter is a well respected coach and he had a huge impact when he arrived at Clermont. Seeing the difference that Schmidt made to the Ireland team is the only thing preventing me from disappearing into a large black hole of despair - it can be done.

That last bit is the reason why I think Cotter fancies coming to Scotland. He knows the players are there and just need coached and managed properly. Can you imagine how much high regard cotter will be held in if he can turn Scotland around. It is a big ask but from what i have heard from players who have been coached by him and know him i think he is up to the task.

The other thing I hope he brings in which he has done at Clermont is that no player is bigger than the jersey and if you have a bad game then you run the risk of being dropped. Too many of the squad seem think that they are guaranteed a spot even if they play poorly.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 18 Mar 2014, 5:05 pm

Majestic83 wrote:Now the 6 nations are over there will be major changes for Scotland between now and the next international.
Vern Cotter will be the head coach for the next test with scott Johnson moving to director of rugby. Unclear yet if Cotter will bring in his own coaching team or whether he will inherit the current crop.

The 6 nations has been a disaster for Scotland but I still believe Scotland has some very good players and a lot of the problems in the 6 nations stem from poor coaching, tactics, very bad selection and man management. Glasgow regularly beat the top Rambo teams, Edinburgh can as well and a lot of the exile players are playing at the very top teams in England and France and winning week in week out but for some reason when they pull on the blue jersey something just isn't there.
This will all change when Cotter arrives. Speaking to Chris Paterson and al kellock a few weeks ago they can't wait for cotter to arrive as they say his coaching style and manner is that of a modern day Jim Telfer and they believe exactly what this squad need.

From a playing point of view there are a few players that should be dropped and not selected for the summer tour. For me they are Ryan Wilson, Tim Swinson, Greig Laidlaw.
Wilson is good at number 8 for Glasgow but is not a 6 at international level. We have 3 far better 6's available yet none were picked. Would Wilson get in the team at 8? For me, nope. Denton, Beattie are far better options and I would say Ali Hogg is also far better than wilson. Why was he picked? Because Johnson thought he was a good "kid". It's not wilson a fault he was picked out of position but there are far better options.
Tim Swinson was very poor compared to his form on last years summer tour. He didn't seem to have the same grunt or energy and was ver ineffective. Again there are other options at lock like Gilchrist who has improved a lot this season and has a harder edge about him now and also johnnycake gray.
Greig Laidlaw was put in the autumn tests and even worse in the 6 nations. His decision making was poor, his service was extremely slow. He offers no break or snipe at all and his main attribute his goal kicking has been poor. Custer looks far sharper, when he has played and deserves a shot. He also has very good leadership qualities. Grayson Hart is also in top form and deserves a chance on recent form. Quick pass, physical and knows the way to the line.

The Backrow was the biggest concern during the 6 nations, it was unbalanced and very off pace. The back row needs balance and a good back row will have 3 players with different qualities, a scavenger who makes a nuisance of himself and tackles his heart out. A hard worker who will do the unseen stuff at the breakdown and then a big athletic ball carrier who will run all day making the hard yards. Scotland have these options but went for three players who were all very similar. It didn't work and must be changed.

The summer tour we play Canada, USA, Argentina and South Africa. The first two teams we "should" beat comfortably the other two will be tough and physical. They will probably take a squad of between 32 and 35.
I'd go with 6 props
Ryan grant
Ali Dickinson
Jon welsh but has to move back to loose head where he is far more destructive.
Euan murray
Geoff cross
Moray low not great during 6 nations but would like to see what difference cotter can make.

Hookers
Scott lawson
Ross ford again to see what difference cotter has on him, need to get him back to his best and think cotter could be key to this.
Pat maccarthur

Locks
Richie gray
Jim Hamilton finished 6 nations strongly,did a lot of dirty work.
Grant Gilchrist
Johnny gray

Backrow
Denton
Beattie
Strokosh
Brown but as a 6
Barclay
Rennie

9
Cusiter
Hart
Kennedy looks a very good player, quick service and very quick acceleration

10
Weir not the best 6 nations. Too much chopping and changing at ten so hasn't a had a huge run of games to gain confidence and learn how to control a game. Deserves the chance at ten for the summer tour.
Jackson or heathcote both offer different options but neither are getting a lot of game time. Heathcote has the best potential so would lean towards him.

Centres
Scott
Dunbar
Bennett
Taylor just nicks it over Grove as taylor covers 12,13 wing and full back but certainly think grove would be good enough as well

Back three
Visser
Maitland
Lamont probably won't start if visser and Maitland are there but impact from the bench Lamont will make a big contribution. Nearing the end of his career but worth taking for bench impact.
Fife deserves another shot after his first cap.
Hogg
Cuthbert just gets it as back up full back. Could easily have Seymour or Evans with Maitland covering full back

Laidlaw should miss summer tour, concentrate on his move and get a good pre season.
Others I'd consider but injured for summer tour would be Tonks, Pete Horne .

Decent squad, Maj, altho there's no way we should be taking Cuthbert anywhere. Tonks gets the nod, offering cover at 15 and 10. Horne is also due for a run-out for Stirling County this weekend, so might still come into the reckoning. I also can't see Laidlaw being left at home, as tempting as that might be, and Seymour is comfortably ahead of Lamont, Evans and Fife in the pecking order for me

by reallybored Tue 18 Mar 2014, 5:50 pm

Cotter shouldn't be too worried, there's a good squad there and if he can improve the pack we should be in good shape come RWC.

The pack is a concern though; two positions in the front-row that are still up for grabs, who best to partner Gray with and the back-row is a tough selection.

I'd like to see Cotter look at MacArthur, Welsh, Gray, Harley and obviously plays one of our top 7s (Rennie or Barclay). Want a mobile pack to deliver fast ball to the real pace out wide.

by takethelongroad Tue 18 Mar 2014, 9:09 pm

In terms of summer captaincy R Gray, Rennie (if he stays in one piece) or KB@6 would work for me. I always felt Barclay might fill this role but his recent handling by the selectors may have set things back a little.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 18 Mar 2014, 10:58 pm

Who knows where the captaincy will go. It's a bit of a poisoned chalice at the moment. Given that virtually no one is guaranteed to start, it makes it tricky.

I would personally stick with Brown and play him at 6, but that seems unlikely. Laidlaw has leadership qualities but his game is letting him down. Hogg and Scott are guaranteed starters but not leaders. Tricky.

by Nematode Tue 18 Mar 2014, 10:59 pm

If I was Vern Cotter, I'd be marking this period as one of handover from the older generation to the younger players. I'd like to see how strong our youngsters are and get them some game time, enthuse them to really want to play for Scotland. You give the likes of Hart & J Gray a cap or two, show them that they are in consideration for RWC 2015, then hopefully they'll try a little harder to up their game.

So if I was to pick a 30ish man squad, it'd be:

Grant/Dickinson, MacArthur/Ford, Cross/Welsh/Cusack, R Gray/J Gray/Gilchrist/Atkins, Eddie/Harley/Low, Barclay/Rennie, Denton/Beattie, Cusiter/Hart, Weir/Heathcote/Tonks, Maitland/Visser/Hogg/Fife, Dunbar/Scott/Bennett/Taylor/Vernon

We really need to see what are options are in the ten shirt. I think Heathcote is the most promising, and hopefully we'll see him at Edinburgh shortly. But overall, this needs to be a new direction. If we start "easy" with America, let the team build confidence, then I'd keep the 23 throughout.

23:

Grant, MacArthur, Cross, J Gray, R Gray, Beattie, Barclay, Denton; Cusiter, Heathcote, Visser, Scott, Dunbar, Maitland, Hogg SUB Dickinson, Ford, Cusack, Gilchrist, Rennie, Hart, Horne, Fife

by Nematode Tue 18 Mar 2014, 11:01 pm

But also, I don't like this whole RWC is everything kind of feeling. We need to sort out our team and build to being competitive again and taken seriously as a rugby nation. Getting out of our group should be our focus. Anything more, a bonus.

by Nematode Tue 18 Mar 2014, 11:04 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U6GdyOIdIs

See Heathcote is in the same vid as Yarde and Nowell - just shows, Lancaster giving youngsters a chance and them taking it is effective. Maybe a gamble, but worth it

by funnyExiledScot Tue 18 Mar 2014, 11:06 pm

Hart and Jonny Gray may well feature for me as well. Nothing to do with experimenting, both fully deserve to be involved. Gray has been solid all season and Hart was sharper against the ospreys than anything we've seen from laidlaw all season.

by Nematode Tue 18 Mar 2014, 11:08 pm

I'd also put Cowan in the squad.

I just think we need a bit of this:

Scotland and the summer tour! Febreze

Let's freshen up the squad

by funnyExiledScot Tue 18 Mar 2014, 11:10 pm

Nematode wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U6GdyOIdIs

See Heathcote is in the same vid as Yarde and Nowell - just shows, Lancaster giving youngsters a chance and them taking it is effective. Maybe a gamble, but worth it

Lancaster isn't picking youngsters because they are young, he's picking them because they are impressing in the Aviva and on better form than the older guys. Players like Ashton and Strettle dipped, and Nowell and Yarde were performing better.

Picking Heathcote would be doing something very different.

by Nematode Tue 18 Mar 2014, 11:13 pm

Heathcote is playing better than Weir atm IMO

Interestingly the sky rugby site had a list of stats. Worryingly, this came out:

14 - Number of times Scotland's Duncan Weir fell off a tackle.

Many claimed he was solid in defence...

by alive555 Wed 19 Mar 2014, 5:56 am

isnt cusack sq in june ?

by **George Carlin** Wed 19 Mar 2014, 7:33 am

Maj - hope you don't mind, but I updated your OP with a note of when the games actually are.

by **George Carlin** Wed 19 Mar 2014, 7:55 am

alive555 wrote:isnt cusack sq in june ?

Yes, I was sure that he came in June 2011 but I can't find a note of the precise date anywhere. The detail of the rule may actually make a difference as to whether he can play on this tour or not. I don't know whether the relevant date for the purposes of working out 3 years is the date that the player came into the country or the date when he started his first game for the team.

by **RDW** Wed 19 Mar 2014, 8:19 am

Biltong wrote:Looking forward to see you boys in SA this June, the match is played at the Nelson Mandela Bay stadium, it should be a grand occasion in one of our most beautiful stadiums.

Not sure if you are aware Biltong, but the game against you guys is outside the International window, so Scotland will be only able to pick players from Glasgow and Edinburgh for the game against SA. That also includes players that are leaving Glasgow or Edinburgh after this season.

Off the top of my head that list includes:

Scott Lawson
Euan Murray
Murray Low
Geoff Cross (rumoured to be leaving Edinburgh)
Jim Hamilton
Richie Gray
Al Strokosh
Kelly Brown
Johnnie Beattie
John Barclay
Ross Rennie (rumoured to be leaving Edinburgh)
Chris Cusiter
Greig Laidlaw
Ruaridh Jackson (rumoured to be leaving Glasgow)
Duncan Taylor
Max Evans

That is quite a big list, so I can't see us being overly competitive against you, especially if you put out your first choice team!

Our team for that game will have to be something like:

Grant, Ford, Cusak, Swinson, Gray jnr, Harley, Fusaro, Denton, Hart, Weir, Visser, Scott, Dunbar, Maitland, Hogg

Bench - Welsh, McArthur, Allan, Gilchrist, Wilson, Hidalgo-Clyne, Tonks, Messiah

That team isn't a disaster, the backs are pretty much first choice apart from scrum half, but the forwards are a bit of a worry and the forwards on the bench are very green.

Also worth remembering that is assuming no injuries to any of the players named above - probably quite unlikely given it is a 4 game tour at the end of a long season.

by Majestic83 Wed 19 Mar 2014, 8:20 am

George Carlin wrote:Maj - hope you don't mind, but I updated your OP with a note of when the games actually are.

Yep that is cool mate Smile

by jimbopip Wed 19 Mar 2014, 8:25 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:Hart and Jonny Gray may well feature for me as well. Nothing to do with experimenting, both fully deserve to be involved. Gray has been solid all season and Hart was sharper against the ospreys than anything we've seen from laidlaw all season.

Being honest Fes, that isn't really a ringing endorsement : a bit like saying our economy is stronger than Greece's.
Also, 10 seems to be a concern for most of us and most posters are looking at ;Scott-Dunbar-Bennett-Taylor to tour which leaves out the gold standard of Scottish attacking three quarters SO has anyone seen Richie Vee play stand off?
Just putting an idea into the ether, as it were.

by Majestic83 Wed 19 Mar 2014, 8:28 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Majestic83 wrote:Now the 6 nations are over there will be major changes for Scotland between now and the next international.
Vern Cotter will be the head coach for the next test with scott Johnson moving to director of rugby. Unclear yet if Cotter will bring in his own coaching team or whether he will inherit the current crop.

The 6 nations has been a disaster for Scotland but I still believe Scotland has some very good players and a lot of the problems in the 6 nations stem from poor coaching, tactics, very bad selection and man management. Glasgow regularly beat the top Rambo teams, Edinburgh can as well and a lot of the exile players are playing at the very top teams in England and France and winning week in week out but for some reason when they pull on the blue jersey something just isn't there.
This will all change when Cotter arrives. Speaking to Chris Paterson and al kellock a few weeks ago they can't wait for cotter to arrive as they say his coaching style and manner is that of a modern day Jim Telfer and they believe exactly what this squad need.

From a playing point of view there are a few players that should be dropped and not selected for the summer tour. For me they are Ryan Wilson, Tim Swinson, Greig Laidlaw.
Wilson is good at number 8 for Glasgow but is not a 6 at international level. We have 3 far better 6's available yet none were picked. Would Wilson get in the team at 8? For me, nope. Denton, Beattie are far better options and I would say Ali Hogg is also far better than wilson. Why was he picked? Because Johnson thought he was a good "kid". It's not wilson a fault he was picked out of position but there are far better options.
Tim Swinson was very poor compared to his form on last years summer tour. He didn't seem to have the same grunt or energy and was ver ineffective. Again there are other options at lock like Gilchrist who has improved a lot this season and has a harder edge about him now and also johnnycake gray.
Greig Laidlaw was put in the autumn tests and even worse in the 6 nations. His decision making was poor, his service was extremely slow. He offers no break or snipe at all and his main attribute his goal kicking has been poor. Custer looks far sharper, when he has played and deserves a shot. He also has very good leadership qualities. Grayson Hart is also in top form and deserves a chance on recent form. Quick pass, physical and knows the way to the line.

The Backrow was the biggest concern during the 6 nations, it was unbalanced and very off pace. The back row needs balance and a good back row will have 3 players with different qualities, a scavenger who makes a nuisance of himself and tackles his heart out. A hard worker who will do the unseen stuff at the breakdown and then a big athletic ball carrier who will run all day making the hard yards. Scotland have these options but went for three players who were all very similar. It didn't work and must be changed.

The summer tour we play Canada, USA, Argentina and South Africa. The first two teams we "should" beat comfortably the other two will be tough and physical. They will probably take a squad of between 32 and 35.
I'd go with 6 props
Ryan grant
Ali Dickinson
Jon welsh but has to move back to loose head where he is far more destructive.
Euan murray
Geoff cross
Moray low not great during 6 nations but would like to see what difference cotter can make.

Hookers
Scott lawson
Ross ford again to see what difference cotter has on him, need to get him back to his best and think cotter could be key to this.
Pat maccarthur

Locks
Richie gray
Jim Hamilton finished 6 nations strongly,did a lot of dirty work.
Grant Gilchrist
Johnny gray

Backrow
Denton
Beattie
Strokosh
Brown but as a 6
Barclay
Rennie

9
Cusiter
Hart
Kennedy looks a very good player, quick service and very quick acceleration

10
Weir not the best 6 nations. Too much chopping and changing at ten so hasn't a had a huge run of games to gain confidence and learn how to control a game. Deserves the chance at ten for the summer tour.
Jackson or heathcote both offer different options but neither are getting a lot of game time. Heathcote has the best potential so would lean towards him.

Centres
Scott
Dunbar
Bennett
Taylor just nicks it over Grove as taylor covers 12,13 wing and full back but certainly think grove would be good enough as well

Back three
Visser
Maitland
Lamont probably won't start if visser and Maitland are there but impact from the bench Lamont will make a big contribution. Nearing the end of his career but worth taking for bench impact.
Fife deserves another shot after his first cap.
Hogg
Cuthbert just gets it as back up full back. Could easily have Seymour or Evans with Maitland covering full back

Laidlaw should miss summer tour, concentrate on his move and get a good pre season.
Others I'd consider but injured for summer tour would be Tonks, Pete Horne .

Decent squad, Maj, altho there's no way we should be taking Cuthbert anywhere. Tonks gets the nod, offering cover at 15 and 10. Horne is also due for a run-out for Stirling County this weekend, so might still come into the reckoning. I also can't see Laidlaw being left at home, as tempting as that might be, and Seymour is comfortably ahead of Lamont, Evans and Fife in the pecking order for me

I'd probably agree on Tonks over cutch beet but think Tonks is out for 6 months so won't make the tour. Cuthbert is next in line after that and tbh he is playing very well at full back so think he probably deserves a chance.
Horne I would leave out at the moment from the summer tour, the type of injury he has had you don't want to rush him back too quick. I'd give him the summer to really get it right and get a full pre season done.
I'd agree Seymour is ahead of Evans and probably fife, not sure how long he is out injured for?

by **RDW** Wed 19 Mar 2014, 8:35 am

What do people think about Visser?

I'm not sure how his recovery is doing, but he broke his leg 4 months ago.

I would say if he was fit and ready to go with 4 games left of the season then he should go for it and put himself up for selection for the summer. If he will only be back for the last game or two then he should just take his time and give himself a full pre-season. The thing about a broken leg is that you lose all strength and muscle mass in your legs as you are not able to do anything on them - he needs time to get this back and build up his speed and strength.

We've got to be looking long term to the world cup, and if that means Visser sits out the rest of the season then so be it.

by funnyExiledScot Wed 19 Mar 2014, 9:22 am

Nematode wrote:Heathcote is playing better than Weir atm IMO

Interestingly the sky rugby site had a list of stats. Worryingly, this came out:

14 - Number of times Scotland's Duncan Weir fell off a tackle.

Many claimed he was solid in defence...

In which recent rugby matches has Heathcote so impressed? Am interested to hear about this recent good form.

I do agree with you that Weir has been pants.

by funnyExiledScot Wed 19 Mar 2014, 9:24 am

jimbopip wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Hart and Jonny Gray may well feature for me as well. Nothing to do with experimenting, both fully deserve to be involved. Gray has been solid all season and Hart was sharper against the ospreys than anything we've seen from laidlaw all season.
Being honest Fes, that isn't really a ringing endorsement : a bit like saying our economy is stronger than Greece's.

Don't joke. Scotland could very well be heading in that direction.. Wink

by funnyExiledScot Wed 19 Mar 2014, 9:28 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:What do people think about Visser?

I'm not sure how his recovery is doing, but he broke his leg 4 months ago.

I would say if he was fit and ready to go with 4 games left of the season then he should go for it and put himself up for selection for the summer. If he will only be back for the last game or two then he should just take his time and give himself a full pre-season. The thing about a broken leg is that you lose all strength and muscle mass in your legs as you are not able to do anything on them - he needs time to get this back and build up his speed and strength.

We've got to be looking long term to the world cup, and if that means Visser sits out the rest of the season then so be it.

Agree - if Visser won't be fully fit for the tour then he shouldn't go. What matters more is having him 100% for next season and the WC. Sean Lamont can cover in the meantime, or Maitland or Seymour can switch wings.

We really need Visser to be fit. We are not a creative side so we need the best finishers available. Visser is a master of scoring tries whilst in a rubbish side, Edinburgh have prepared him well for international duty!

by **George Carlin** Wed 19 Mar 2014, 9:49 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Nematode wrote:Heathcote is playing better than Weir atm IMO

Interestingly the sky rugby site had a list of stats. Worryingly, this came out:

14 - Number of times Scotland's Duncan Weir fell off a tackle.

Many claimed he was solid in defence...

In which recent rugby matches has Heathcote so impressed? Am interested to hear about this recent good form.

I am largely taking the word of my Bath Massive who attend most games and the highlights that I saw, but if that was a genuine question (I'm assuming that it wasn't rhetorical and you're actually interested in being informed) then his game management and invention (especially the chip through for Eastmond's try) was very good against Wasps on 22 February, had a huge defensive and kicking performance against the Blues in the Heineken and was very slick against the Dragons in the Amlin. Bath won all of these games.

Nobody is claiming that Heathcote has had loads and loads of gametime, but the real point is that when he's been given a chance this year, he seems to have played very well. I'm not attributing this position to anyone in particular, but it's faintly ludicrous to suggest that a potentially more talented and appropriately fit player be left at home when someone who has proven themselves to have notable deficiencies in their game gets taken instead simply because he has recently played more often. Heathcote could be very good indeed but until we give him some gametime, we just don't know. Tonks being laid up and Horne not yet being shipshape (hopefully he doesn't break down for Stirling County) means that I think Heathcote absolutely should be the 3rd fly half that we take.

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 19 Mar 2014, 9:55 am

For me I would like to see Grayson Hart capped in the summer. Anytime I have seen him play for Edinburgh he has been excellent.

Time to experiment at 10. Get Horne or Tonks in there ASAP.

The rest of the positions just about pick themeselves.

1. Grant/Dickinson/Welsh
2. Lawson/MacArthur/Ford
3. Cross/Murray/Lowe
4. Gray/Gilchrist
5. Swinson/Hamilton/J Gray
6. Brown/Harley/Stroks
7. Rennie/Barclay/Fusaro
8. Denton/Beattie/Wilson
9. Hart/Laidlaw/Cusiter
10. Dunno - Horne/Tonks/Pyrgos/Heathcoate (Jackson and Weir are not international class 10s, time to smell the coffee

)
11. Visser/Lamont/Fife
12. Scott/Grove/Taylor
13. Dunbar/Bennett/Vernon
14. Seymore/Maitland/Brown
15. Hogg/Cuthbert/Murchie

by funnyExiledScot Wed 19 Mar 2014, 9:56 am

GC - for once, on this rare occasion, I was asking a genuine question without agenda or sarcasm.....

I am delighted to hear that Heathcote is grabbing the limited chances he's getting with both hands. The bar is unbelievably low at the moment to make the Scotland squad at 10, and if he's shown even glimpses of talent in the Aviva or HC then he ought to tour, and not necessarily as 3rd choice.

Neither Tonks nor Horne are ready to be considered at 10 (although I really do hope that will be remedied by the AIs) so the full list of contenders are Weir, Jackson, Leonard, Russell and Heathcote (in no particular order). I can't think of anyone else who is a serious option at this stage, and Jackson hasn't had a good season (plus has had numerous opportunities), Weir has been poor, Russell has barely played and I don't think Leonard has shown enough. By process of elimation we may well be looking at Heathcote playing at least two matches on this tour. I personally wouldn't grumble (too much). It's just a shame that you can be a realistic option for playing international rugby for Scotland, having done so little.

by **RDW** Wed 19 Mar 2014, 10:00 am

The thing is with the 10 shirt, we're not looking for Dan Carter here - if we can get a 10 that can pass kick and tackle consistently well we can build the team around that. Look at Owen Farrell - his game has come on a lot, but all he was asked to do with England was get them some territory and ship it out to the big men outside.

We need safe and steady just now, not 'mercurial' (i.e. flashes of brilliance followed by prolonged spells of rank awfulness).

For me safe and steady can only mean one thing - Heathocote. I thought it was Weir, but he was a compelte headless chicken in the 6N. He is still young though and will have learned from that.

SRU - buy Heathcoat out of his contract and get him to Edinburgh!!!!

by **George Carlin** Wed 19 Mar 2014, 10:22 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:GC - for once, on this rare occasion, I was asking a genuine question without agenda or sarcasm.....

I am delighted to hear that Heathcote is grabbing the limited chances he's getting with both hands. The bar is unbelievably low at the moment to make the Scotland squad at 10, and if he's shown even glimpses of talent in the Aviva or HC then he ought to tour, and not necessarily as 3rd choice.

Neither Tonks nor Horne are ready to be considered at 10 (although I really do hope that will be remedied by the AIs) so the full list of contenders are Weir, Jackson, Leonard, Russell and Heathcote (in no particular order). I can't think of anyone else who is a serious option at this stage, and Jackson hasn't had a good season (plus has had numerous opportunities), Weir has been poor, Russell has barely played and I don't think Leonard has shown enough. By process of elimation we may well be looking at Heathcote playing at least two matches on this tour. I personally wouldn't grumble (too much). It's just a shame that you can be a realistic option for playing international rugby for Scotland, having done so little.

But seriously... I agree that it's very hard to know whom to invest in. Heathcote is 22, Leonard is 21, Russell is 21. Heathcote has played 53 times for Bath and has 3 Scotland caps, Leonard has featured for Edinburgh 33 times and Russell for Glasgow 7 times. Both Russell and Leonard have Scotland age group experience. Even if they were fit, I wouldn't consider Tonks or Horne for the 10 shirt until I at least had some idea of how those three would measure up. I think that Heathcote has to be the next cab off the rank. Let's try him out. I swear that if I was Robbie Robinson, I would be straight over here for some international action.

by tigertattie Wed 19 Mar 2014, 10:32 am

Leonard isn't even that good a club player

Finn Russell is promising but is unproven

Weir and Jacko shown to be clueless at international level

Heathcote has already shown in the Aviva that he can be a steady pair of hands at the very least. Playing well for Bath over the international window! Totally deserves a chance to guide the Scotland backline.

by **RDW** Wed 19 Mar 2014, 10:34 am

Alternative option is we stick with Weir for the entire summer tour and see if he has learned his (many) lessons.

It does however mean that if he is still rubbish (or gets injured) we only have an AI series and 6N to find someone else...

by R!skysports Wed 19 Mar 2014, 12:04 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:Who knows where the captaincy will go. It's a bit of a poisoned chalice at the moment. Given that virtually no one is guaranteed to start, it makes it tricky.

I would personally stick with Brown and play him at 6, but that seems unlikely. Laidlaw has leadership qualities but his game is letting him down. Hogg and Scott are guaranteed starters but not leaders. Tricky.

Does he though? - this and 'he is a clever footballer' or 'tactician' seem to be throw about all the time, but in truth I have never ever seen it.

He decision making is poor, he is slow of pass, poor tackler, and does not run with the ball. Some shocking tactical decisions this 6 nations and he is part of it.

We 'forgave' him for these faults when he played 10, as he was 'out of position' but now he is at 9 - he is imo ever worst - time to face the music, he is not very good

by funnyExiledScot Wed 19 Mar 2014, 12:16 pm

Well Laidlaw is a key leader within the Edinburgh camp - just watch the Munster victory earlier this year in the HC. Still, it certainly doesn't win him his spot in the team above Cusiter, and I would never pick a player based on some intangible notion of "leadership" - see my views on Al Kellock for the last decade.

I think there's a good argument for leaving Laidlaw behind over the summer - he can't play in the final match anyway. I'd be very tempted to go with Cusiter, Hart and then one of Kennedy or Hidalgo-Clyne. Hart and Cusiter play, the other goes along for a GC style holiday.

by funnyExiledScot Wed 19 Mar 2014, 12:23 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Alternative option is we stick with Weir for the entire summer tour and see if he has learned his (many) lessons.

It does however mean that if he is still rubbish (or gets injured) we only have an AI series and 6N to find someone else...

I think we're damned if we do, damned if we don't. I'm sure Scott Johnson's lucky team selection dice will throw up the right answer!!

by **George Carlin** Wed 19 Mar 2014, 12:28 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:Well Laidlaw is a key leader within the Edinburgh camp - just watch the Munster victory earlier this year in the HC. Still, it certainly doesn't win him his spot in the team above Cusiter, and I would never pick a player based on some intangible notion of "leadership" - see my views on Al Kellock for the last decade.

I think there's a good argument for leaving Laidlaw behind over the summer - he can't play in the final match anyway. I'd be very tempted to go with Cusiter, Hart and then one of Kennedy or Hidalgo-Clyne. Hart and Cusiter play, the other goes along for a GC style holiday.

I'm not sure that going on endless wine tours, dribbling at local hotties, buying watches and staying up very, very late in order to laugh at local television programmes would fly with coaching staff. Or perhaps it would... chin

by funnyExiledScot Wed 19 Mar 2014, 12:36 pm

I'm pretty sure you've stumbled upon Scott Johnson's "four point plan" there.....

by **George Carlin** Wed 19 Mar 2014, 12:45 pm

I see Hogg's hearing for the shoulder barge is in Cardiff on Saturday. Nothing like a neutral venue.

We need to start warming up to the prospect that he could receive quite a lengthy ban, even though he was big (read: smart) enough to be very publicly contrite about it. At least we have Murchie back.

by **RDW** Wed 19 Mar 2014, 12:50 pm

I thought it was today?

I'd be surprised if it was a 'lengthy' ban. It is definitely the lower end of severity, and it doesn't look like he jumped with the deliberate intention of hitting him in the face - he definitely jumped to collide with him, but they will have to decide whether the head contact was deliberate.

Is there any precedent for this anywhere?

by **RDW** Wed 19 Mar 2014, 12:52 pm

The BBC says today, in London

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26622460

by **George Carlin** Wed 19 Mar 2014, 12:53 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:The BBC says today, in London

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26622460

You mean that the Scotsman has inaccuracies! Shocked

by **RDW** Wed 19 Mar 2014, 12:54 pm

George Carlin wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:The BBC says today, in London

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26622460
You mean that the Scotsman has inaccuracies!

It is a rare occurrence I know, but everyone has off days!

by EWT Spoons Wed 19 Mar 2014, 1:01 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:The BBC says today, in London

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26622460
You mean that the Scotsman has inaccuracies!

It is a rare occurrence I know, but everyone has off days!

With that said, the BBC is hardly the most trust worthy source when it comes to sport in Scotland

by **RDW** Wed 19 Mar 2014, 1:05 pm

True, very true.

I do appreciate how BBC 'sport' Scotland updates on the news give 5 minutes talking about a divison 3 football team's striker missing a game due to his dog dying but Edinburgh and Glasgow seem to be an after thought.

by funnyExiledScot Wed 19 Mar 2014, 1:11 pm

Given that the issue was dealt with on the pitch at the time with a red card, I hope the ban isn't too severe. In no sense did he "get away with it".

Still, in Jack Cuthbert we have excellent cover.....

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 19 Mar 2014, 1:33 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:Given that the issue was dealt with on the pitch at the time with a red card, I hope the ban isn't too severe. In no sense did he "get away with it".

Still, in Jack Cuthbert we have excellent cover.....

Am I the only one who doesn't think Jock Cuthbert is worthless?

He's impressed me thusfar for Edinburgh.

He's no Stuart Hogg, however he seems to be pretty big, powerful and to an extent fast.

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